LT5 Assembly Project

[LGAFF]

The IH that came with were not siamesed....I will be Siamesing the IHs and Plenum. I am shooting for 500hp(crank), but with that the car will be 3150lbs so I can get by with alittle less if needed, the 2ndry port is fine....primary could use some, but I am not going to puruse it.

Ultimately, this engine(a spare from 90-702) will go into #966.....I will then rebuild #966/port heads, and reinstall it in the car.....shortblock from #702 will probably then go up for sale.

[Paul Workman]

I am shooting for 500hp(crank), but with that the car will be 3150lbs so I can get by with alittle less if needed...


I'm starting to remove extra weight from mine too. I was able to remove over 35# in one area alone...took it off the friggin DRIVER!!:dancing

Anywayz...another 500+ hp FBI entry. How cool is that!!??:cheers:

P.

[LGAFF]

Some Clarity on Lifters

Looks like the INAs are AM.....421 000 110

HT-2236 Lifter is 35MM Diameter 27MM Height

INA 421 000 110 is 35MM Diamter and 36MM Height.

[Jagdpanzer]

Probably not, unless you do a valve job and sink the valves, or use shims (lash caps) on the tips.

Todd,
I'm planning on using the same light weight INA lifters as you have with stock exhaust and SGC Stage 1 intake cams.
Where is a good source for 35mm bucket lifter shims (lash caps) for 8mm valve stems?

[LGAFF]

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/supertech/cam-followers.html

[LGAFF]

Alittle note from Pelican Parts Forum on INA lifters, which I believe are the same as ours(Porche 928/944)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/564231-dissecting-944s-lifters.html#post5570254

[LGAFF]

Post on Pelican Parts not to use the INAs, but to use the VW Lifters

Can you go to a solid lifter: http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-components-audi-i5-10vturbo-lifter-solid-for-audivw-motors-p-629.html

[LGAFF]

In terms of the Cam failures we have seen, maybe we need to touch base with these guys, they use the sames lifters/followers.....and they seem very confident in their regrinds:

http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/camshafts.php

[tpepmeie]

Lee,
Those are not the same p/n INA buckets that I have, but similar in appearance. There are several different ones looking about the same, but varying in weight and application.

The lightweight ones are VW/Audi part 050 109 309HBR. The suffix is important. The INA manufacturer p/n is printed on the underside.

We tested them to over 8000 on the spintron and saw no adverse issues with the buckets.

[LGAFF]

Interesting Article on flat tappet Cams, explores reason for failures, I noticed that the HBR means the tappet was made in Brazil, wondering if you are going to coat them, I am considering having my lifters coated.

[LGAFF]

I know I am flooding info right now, but just reading up on Cam failures in case I decide to go with regrinds.


From: Dave Baker (http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/)Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworkingSubject: Re: Help with cam lobe destruction (http://groups.google.com/groups/search?as_ugroup=rec.crafts.metalworking&as_uauthors=PumaRacing&as_usubject=destruction+help+lobe&as_drrb=b&as_mind=30&as_minm=5&as_miny=1999&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=6&as_maxy=1999&sitesearch=groups.google.com)Date: 31 May 1999 16:24:57 GMTFor some reason I can't see the original post to this thread. However, thetheory and practice behind cam follower design and break in procedures is asfollows.Pushrod engine type followers have a radius of about 1 metre ground on therunning face. They are also offset from the centreline of the cam lobe bybetween 1 and 2 mm. The cam lobe is ground at an angle of around 3 thou perinch to ensure initial contact towards the side of the follower. Thecombination of angle, radius and offset ensures that the follower rotates toeven up wear over the entire running surface. If a follower stops rotating itwears out in very short order.The break in procedure is not just to "match" the follower to the cam lobe asis commonly thought. It is also to work harden the surfaces for which cast ironis an excellent material. The high point loadings rapidly compress the surfaceskin of the lobe and follower and create a hardened skin which then resistswear. All cam systems wear at a given rate during their service life and therate of wear depends on lubrication, material hardeness, regularity of surfacefinish and other factors. The aim is to reach a rate of wear at which thefreshly exposed metal work hardens quick enough to resist further wear. If thefollower stops rotating or the lubrication boundary fails then wear takes placefaster than hardening takes place leading to catastrophic failure.Modern overhead cam engines running on bucket followers use hardened steel asthe bucket material and these are ground flat not radiused although there isstill an offset to ensure rotation.Break in procedure is to coat the running surfaces with molybdenum disulphidelube and then run at 1500 to 2000 rpm for 15 to 20 minutes. Low speeds createhigh point loadings and high speeds create rapid wear rates. Intermediateengine speeds allow work hardening to take place without excessive point stresson the parts.99% of cam failures are due to inadequate break in procedures.Dave Baker at Puma Race Engines (London - England) - specialist cylinder headwork, flow development and engine blueprinting. Web page athttp://members.aol.com/pumaracing/index.htm (http://members.aol.com/pumaracing/index.htm)From: Dave Baker (http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/)Subject: Re: cam follower grinding (http://groups.google.com/groups/search?as_ugroup=rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled&as_uauthors=PumaRacing&as_usubject=follower+grinding+cam&as_drrb=b&as_mind=27&as_minm=11&as_miny=1998&as_maxd=29&as_maxm=11&as_maxy=1998&sitesearch=groups.google.com)Date: 28 Nov 1998Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooledApart from overhead cam engines with bucket lifters under the cam, all camfollowers are ground with a convex curve on a radius of approx 1 metre. The camlobes also have a slight taper across their face, usually 2 to 3 thou acrossthe lobe. This ensures that the contact point is on one side of the followerwhich causes it to spin. Obviously the taper must slope the correct waydepending on which side of the follower the cam sits. (cam lobes run towardsone side of a follower, not right across the centre line)This evens out the wear and enables the cam lobe and follower to bed intogether. Spin rates are critical for long life and there is plenty of researchin old ICMA papers from the 50s and 60s on design parameters. Too slow a spinrate and the follower scuffs - too fast and it wears in the follower bore.Sometimes there is more to engines (and engineers) than meets the naked eye !!Some years ago a large firm of engine component manufacturers over here madesome special race cams for a well known racing driver. They kept wearing outand taking the engine with them. It took them ages to realise that a taperacross the cam lobe was needed !!Just because someone makes and sells something doesn't mean they know damn allabout it.Glossy adverts sell more parts than proper R&D.One day perhaps I'll drag myself out the local technical library and get thebalance a bit more right !!Dave Baker at Puma Race Engines (London - England) - specialist flowdevelopment and engine work. .

[LGAFF]

Cams are off for regrinding

[-=Jeff=-]

Cams are off for regrinding

Round lobes are the in thing :razz:

[Hog]

Cams are off for regrinding
Are you regrinding new or used cams?

peace
Hog

[LGAFF]

used

[LGAFF]

New Grind:


Int Duration 236 Cam Lift .425
Ext Duration 222 Cam Lift .415

[Locobob]

New Grind:


Int Duration 236 Cam Lift .425
Ext Duration 222 Cam Lift .415

So what was your thinking behind this choice?

[LGAFF]

I stumbled upon a tested and proven setup that never made it to production......

[Locobob]

I stumbled upon a tested and proven setup that never made it to production......

Feel free to elaborate... I promise you won't bore me :mrgreen:

[-=Jeff=-]

Feel free to elaborate... I promise you won't bore me :mrgreen:

I will find out ;)

[LGAFF]

Gag order right now. Lets see how she does

[Locobob]

Gag order right now. Lets see how she does

Don't make me call Pete :mrgreen:

I'm still kicking around doing something with my cams, I'll be watching with great interest.

[-=Jeff=-]

I know now :)

[XfireZ51]

I'm not convinced that a 5.7L motor needs more exhaust timing when
the I:E ratio is already very good. It should prove a worthwhile compare between my heads combo v what Lee is doing.

[Pete]

So what was your thinking behind this choice?

Bob, the cams Lee has found are basicly the same as the ones that were in my Z at Bowling Green the past 2 years.

I had .236 .425 In .220 .425 Ex i ran 128-129 with these and car drove very very nice.

I think Lee is on to something,will be waiting to see this set up i think it will work just fine or at least be worth 20-25 hp.

Pete

[LGAFF]

Cams arrived safely, my cam guy said if you are reusing lifters, you are asking for trouble.......new lifters are essential on any cam change. This guy has made cams for some of the fastest cars in the world, ferrari, Bugatti, etc

[-=Jeff=-]

Cams arrived safely, my cam guy said if you are reusing lifters, you are asking for trouble.......new lifters are essential on any cam change. This guy has made cams for some of the fastest cars in the world, ferrari, Bugatti, etc
but are you lifters tall enough?

[LGAFF]

Since the heads have had 2 valve jobs, might work out fine with the change in base circle.....a lot of lifter options out there. Mine are actually too tall as is

[Locobob]

Bob, the cams Lee has found are basicly the same as the ones that were in my Z at Bowling Green the past 2 years.

I had .236 .425 In .220 .425 Ex i ran 128-129 with these and car drove very very nice.

I think Lee is on to something,will be waiting to see this set up i think it will work just fine or at least be worth 20-25 hp.

Pete

Yeah I was thinking the specs were pretty close. Be interesting to see if Lee's project yields similar results to yours.

[Locobob]

Since the heads have had 2 valve jobs, might work out fine with the change in base circle.....a lot of lifter options out there. Mine are actually too tall as is

So how much base circle did you lose in the process?

I had thought about deep seating the valves a bit to make up for some base circle loss. I suppose if you rework the chamber a bit around the seats you would not lose any flow by doing so.

I devised a pretty handy little measuring tool for checking valve height - 1.125in OD copper pipe with a hole drilled through the center. It fits nicely in the bearings and allows me to run a dial caliper stem down the hole to the top of the valve. I've played with it quite a bit and it is very repeatable.

[LGAFF]

I will get more info, he has pull out his notes on the project from 15 years ago.....and he will let me know what it will all entail.

[LGAFF]

Started to siamese the intake: This is without smoothing it out with the large flap wheel

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/098.jpg

Will need a dremel tool to clean up some of the ridge in between

[Pete]

Nice.

[LGAFF]

The are the IHs that were machined to 36mm a few mm into the port, well I found out why they did not use them, the walls are thinner by about 1.5mm and so 36mm all the way through is not very easy....but the will do just fine siaimaesed.

Stil need clean up and take ridges down:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/137.jpg

[Pete]

and so 36mm all the way through is not very easy....but they will do just fine siaimaesed.



:)

Now then try getting a 36.5 mm ball go all the way thru or 37mm go halfway,my own IH/plenum are this way.

I do 36mm ball go all the way thru.
Like you said they start to get thin.

Pete

[XfireZ51]

:)

Now then try getting a 36.5 mm ball go all the way thru or 37mm go halfway,my own IH/plenum are this way.

I do 36mm ball go all the way thru.
Like you said they start to get thin.

Pete


Pete,

Does this mean that you must kill all of us now that we know this?

[Polo-1]

time to get the welder out..... been down that road:p

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/kpie/012-1.jpg

[LGAFF]

I used alumiweld from harbor freight, it actually worked.

[Pete]

I used alumiweld from harbor freight, it actually worked.


Lee,does the alumiweld work?

Dom,no i won't have to kill everyone for this info just saying what i have done to my own intake, have not lost low end at least nothing that shows up on Dyno sheet or seat of the pants.

Pete

[LGAFF]

The Alumiweld works if you can keep the parent metal at the required 730 degrees, which I had a hard time with. First one did not work, second one worked well, but I could have used more practice, first time I used it.

Aluminweld, bonds to the parent metal it is not integrated into to as with a weld. It however is very solid......key is how clean the parent metal is too, stainless brush and some acetone need to be used.....I probably could have taken more time in cleaning.

[XfireZ51]

Lee,does the alumiweld work?

Dom,no i won't have to kill everyone for this info just saying what i have done to my own intake, have not lost low end at least nothing that shows up on Dyno sheet or seat of the pants.

Pete

Pete,

Of course I was j/k. You have always been very generous with your acquired knowledge. You've certainly helped me out a lot.
Now if I could only get out from being under "double secret probation":eusa_shhh:eusa_shhh:eusa_shhh:sign10::sign10::sig n10:

[LGAFF]

Just ordered gaskets from Jerry's.....even bought the new head gaskets, I have an OEM pair, but will save them for a rainy day.

Waiting on cams......

I think once I get the order from Jerry, I will have everything.

April will probably be the build month

[Polo-1]

did the pistons show up;)

[LGAFF]

yep, picked up the pistons today...I think the 368 will have to wait for the motor coming out of the 90, LA sleeve is behind on production.

[LGAFF]

Cams are done! Should get them later this week

[LGAFF]

Well got the balance of what I need to complete my build, I decided to use the new Head Gasket from Jerry's....comes complete with specs and instructions. Also bought the new style Cam bolts, with the torque spec from Jerry, setting the cams will be easy, vs the OEM process needed with other bolts.

Check out the Registry promotion on the outside of the package. Can't wait to get the build done.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/161.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/162.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/163.jpg

[LGAFF]

CCd the heads today, Looks like they are right around the stock 40CC.....I used a piece of cheap plexiglass for Hobby Lobby, a platic syringe(like you use to give kids medicene) rubbing alcohol, and some Vaseline.

Put a plug in the head, coat of vaseline around the CC, and left a small gap to inject the alcohol.

No completely accurate, but the heads haave been worked on 2x so not sure what I have....I am not sure I can do the intake valve relief without losing some compression, although I am using Jerry's head gaskets.

[XfireZ51]

Lee,

As I understand it, unshrouding the valves will necessitate milling the heads
to retain compression ratio.

[Polo-1]

Lee,

As I understand it, unshrouding the valves will necessitate milling the heads
to retain compression ratio.

Thats correct, This is what GVD did with mine. I think they picked up around 10-15cfm something like that. Then he milled back down to meet the 40cc.

[A26B]

How much was milled from the heads?

The new head gaskets compressed thickness is about 0.021" thinner. It won't alter the chamber volume, but will effectively accomplish the net change to C/R, as milling up to 0.020".

[LGAFF]

I was at Pete's garage last week, brought the IHs and confirmed that these have thinner walls than stock, part #s are different also....much lighter than even a 37MM ported IH. Finished them up some

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/184.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/193-1.jpg

[Locobob]

Looks like it should flow some air :cheers:

Bet that was fun working the inside divider area.

[LGAFF]

Going to write up an article for HOB on checking valve pre-load(with alittle help from Pete:cheers:):

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/207-1.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/206.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/205.jpg

[Blue Flame Restorations]

How much is the projected cost of the rebuild.....OR...any LT5 rebuild. If you did a 415 yourself, what would it cost?

[LGAFF]

415 is pricey

Block Work alone is $9-10K I believe/although my guy said he could do it for far less.

You can do a 368 for:

$1400 liners
$ 800 Pistons
+
Basic Rebuild

Gaskets: $650-1000
Machine Work: $250-300
Rings: $300
Bearings: $450-500
Cam bolts: $80
Rod Bolts: $30
Misc: $150-200

Honestly this rebuild is funded by emblems, CDs, and porting...so I really do not feel the cost other than time and labor.
So thanks to all the forum members for thier support!

[Polo-1]

and getting good buy on some stuff:wink:

[LGAFF]

Probably forgot a few things.....keep in mind this does not include labor to remove the motor, etc I am doing that myself

My actual cost is on the left

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/cost.jpg

[XfireZ51]

Lee,

I thought you were not doing the 368?

[Blue Flame Restorations]

I have a very competent engine builder and I would like to be involved, myslef. I'd like to build a 368 or 415. The 368 seems to be the biggest bang for the buck from what I can see.

[LGAFF]

The 368 will be the #966 block, which is the block I am keeping....possible I will sell this engine from #702, once I get 966 done...

and get my Callaway or a unique ZR-1

Getting hooked on the LT-5 build stuff, learning a lot

[Blue Flame Restorations]

The 368 will be the #966 block, which is the block I am keeping....possible I will sell this engine from #702, once I get 966 done...

and get my Callaway or a unique ZR-1

Getting hooked on the LT-5 build stuff, learning a lot


I'd buy the #702 block when the time comes.

[Polo-1]

I have a very competent engine builder and I would like to be involved, myslef. I'd like to build a 368 or 415. The 368 seems to be the biggest bang for the buck from what I can see.

NO, the 380ci is the best bang for the buck.

Lee Scored big time on the 368 pistons. If you dont have a pistons yet, and have to buy them new go for the 380 ci.

[LGAFF]

Just for shits and giggles I put injectors in IH and measured the ML volume...

Siamese: 235-240ml
Stock: 180-185ml

Thats 400ci size or bigger on a standard small block

and yes I measured 2 stock ports.....

[LGAFF]

Some VHT Krinkle on the cam covers, supposed to hold up well, Ferrari guys use it..

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/220.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/221.jpg

[-=Jeff=-]

SOME crinkle???


Looks good but some seems to be a rather loosely used term..

:cheers:

[LGAFF]

:mrgreen:The paint comes in original recipe and extra crinkly.......Doug Rippie made the black widow, this is a Tarantula

[-=Jeff=-]

for the 90?

[LGAFF]

yes, this is the #702 engine for the 90

[Pete]

Is that done out of a rattle can.

Looks good.

Pete

[Paul Workman]

Awesome project ya got thar Lee! Love that paint!

That beast is going to be interesting when it is all back together...Very interesting, indeed! Maybe we should start a RWHP pool and try to guess the RWHP numbers!? Justa thought! ;)

P.

[LGAFF]

Got the rough stuff all done on the IHs and plenum

As you can tell, I am short on room here is my porting area:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN3799.jpg

I use a fire place hearth $15 and some bungee cord to hold down the IH:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN3800.jpg


Plenum roughed out:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN3801.jpg

[LGAFF]

Opened up the plenum more today, and flap wheeled them....need to smooth the dividers some, but pretty much done beside clean up...

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN3804.jpg

[LGAFF]

As I port these I can't help but wonder if we would not benefit from coating the exterior of the runners that are adjacent to coolant with some sort of coating to reduce the temp. I asked Marc H this question and he agreed that the runners for #1 and #2 would be higher in temp than others in the back of the plenum.

The most effective would be zirconium Oxide, but at $60 per can, not sure its worth it. Does anone know if VHT flameproof actually contains heat or is it really just paint that won't peel from high temp exposure.

Any other ideas would be great.

I did verify with Marc that the Inj is too far down the runner to need more hear to atomize fuel.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Lee, I used to use a product from the electrical supply. It's in a spray, burnt orange in color and is an insulating material. Can't think of the name at the moment. The circle track guys use it for flow. About $20 a can.

[Polo-1]

Glyptal paint.

Not sure how it work for insulating temp. I would think more of a Ceramic type.

[LGAFF]

When I bought these heads they were ported, however the primary was much smaller the secondary ports....I opened those up today

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN3828.jpg

[Locobob]

When I bought these heads they were ported, however the primary was much smaller the secondary ports....I opened those up today

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN3828.jpg

Those should move some air!

[LGAFF]

The IH is far from a straight shot in, port matched these: PITA....waiting on response from Total Seal, sent them my rings to look at.

Need to wash these out, so they are alittle dirty

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN3856.jpg

[LGAFF]

Spring install:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/th_DSCN3955.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/?action=view&current=DSCN3955.mp4)

[LGAFF]

Sounds suck, but here is a liner pull:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/th_DSCN3968-1.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/?action=view&current=DSCN3968-1.mp4)

[Hog]

Cool vid, thanks for sharing.

Seeing the process makes me wonder how durable the big bore LT5 engines are compared to a stock bore engine? There must be a lot of work into making the 415/427/441 inch engines. And mega amounts of money.

peace
Hog

[tomtom72]

Yea, thanks Lee! I'm finding this thread very educational for me! This is great stuff.

:cheers:
Tom

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Lee,

You are heading for a record with the longest lasting thread, if not already the winner. Many of us have been following this for the past 2 1/2 years. I can say that it definitely helped me while I was building my motor in my garage like you. Thanks for sharing all your trials and tribulations!

Craig

[LGAFF]

Bad day today...


The bearings I am using were recoated by Calico....original to the car. Went through torque/angle on all of the cradle bolts, and the crank is locked.

Did some testing.....2,3,4, bearings are locking the crank.....replaced the recoated thrust bearing with a new OEM and crank would spin as long as 2,4 were not torqued down.

Seems odd....any thoughts?

[Pete]

Are you trying this with anearobic sealent on the cradle.

Pete

[Polo-1]

somethings wrong..

The CT-1 coating is .25-.30 mils this is less then .0005 not .001

[LGAFF]

Sealant is on the cradle surface.....

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Was the block/caps line bored?

[LGAFF]

No allign bore as no known history of a spun bearing, etc

[Blue Flame Restorations]

No line bore as no known history of a spun bearing, etc

If everything mic'd ok and all bearing sizes checked out and crank checked out, it doesn't make sense??????

Has the crank ever fell over while standing on end? I've seen them bent from this. Doesn't take much to do this.

If the crank is not bent, would it make sense to use shims on specific caps? (given that the crank is straight) We do this on every six cylinder used on my 53 restos.

[LGAFF]

Well maybe there is more to the motors history that I have been told....might need to take it to the machine shop

[carter200]

No line bore as no known history of a spun bearing, etc


I always line bore as a precaution. Something is NOT straight if the bearings were coated correctly. Good luck....:cheers:

[tomtom72]

Okay, I'm not sure if what I'm about to say makes any sense or will help you Lee. I have a set of OE size main bearings, you want me to send them to you to check against what you have going on now with your stuff? :o

I bought these from Kurt a long time ago when he had some sets made up.

:cheers:
Tom

[LGAFF]

Thanks for the offer, but I am guessing I will be taking it to the machine shop to make sure I find and address the issue properly.

[cvette98pacecar]

I would love to see pics of the entire process, especially the removing and replacing the heads and timing the camshafts.
Post 'em up!!
You can be sure that I will download and save every one of them for future reference.

TomC
"Crabs"

That makes 2 of us.

[lbszr]

Well maybe there is more to the motors history that I have been told....might need to take it to the machine shop

Were the crankcase bolts along the side and rear torqued, as well as the main bearing bolts when the crank was locked?

Did the main bearings plastigage ok?

[LGAFF]

I did not get as far as to do he bolts on the out edge, once I did the main and everything stopped turning, I stopped.

I did not gauge it, honestly as they were used bearings, did not expect a clearance issue.

[lbszr]

I did not get as far as to do he bolts on the out edge, once I did the main and everything stopped turning, I stopped.

I did not gauge it, honestly as they were used bearings, did not expect a clearance issue.

The manual does have an important message, do not attempt to rotate the crank until the outer crankcase bolts are tight. I don't know if it would be enough to lock the crank, but I think it could chafe the bearings.

I plastigaged mine without tightening the outer crankcase bolts. The plastigage might show a taper if there's a block or crank problem.

[LGAFF]

I will go back today, do them all and the outside to see if that does it...I would think the out bolts would be part of the torque sequence if they were that important......will try it, thanks

[A26B]

Lee,

I would suggest that you install the bearings in the upper crankcase, lube the bearings and lay the crank in place. Set up a dial indicator on the center journal & rotate the crank to check for run out.. Repeat for each end journal. This is not the ideal method, but is a good place to start.

Then, after the crank has been checked, install the bearings only and assemble the lower crankcase. Using telescope gauges, measure each main bearing i.d. in 2 different locations, avoiding the split line. Then mic each crank journal. Use the same mic to measure the telescope gauge as you use on the crank. The actual dimension is not as critical as the differential measurements on each journal, i.e. clearance.

I am assuming that you have inspected the bearing bores in the block & girdle to insure there is no damage that might prevent a bearing shell from seating properly.

[LGAFF]

I tried putting the outside bolts on, as suspected, it made no difference.

I then swapped bearings, no difference....I also checked the surface of upper and lower block, smooth and no issues.


I had the crank checked, fluxed and polished, no issues

This is weird

[Blue Flame Restorations]

This is probably a silly question but did you mark the caps before dis-assembly and then place them exactly where they were before?

[LGAFF]

LT-5 has a girdle, no caps they are part of the lower block

[Blue Flame Restorations]

LT-5 has a girdle, no caps they are part of the lower block


Ok. See? I better stick to making them look pretty. LOL:o

[lbszr]

I tried putting the outside bolts on, as suspected, it made no difference.

I then swapped bearings, no difference....I also checked the surface of upper and lower block, smooth and no issues.


I had the crank checked, fluxed and polished, no issues

This is weird

I'm not familiar with the recoated bearings, could they be too thick. Plastigage, or micing it as A26 mentions might verify where the problem is. Sounds like it would off to the machine shop, if all that checks out. But since it's the same crank and block, seems strange it won't fit all of sudden.

[LGAFF]

Dropped off the block bearings and crank at the machine shop, will let you know what they find.

[Kb7tif]

Did the engine return from the doc yet?

[LGAFF]

Still waiting; race season means daily driver stuff goes to the back of the line at the shop

[Polo-1]

Lee did you have all the bolts run up ( main and girdle ) ?

I know when I did mine it was kind of locked. I had to work the crank front to rear (thrust). Then worked it normal rotation. After that it moves freely, with a high break away feel. The block definitely moves around. The liner are about .003 -.004 out,tapper without head or tq plate.

[LGAFF]

Now you tell me, where the hell were you before!

[LGAFF]

Polo-1.....With that new car you have nothing to fix or work on.....so you're just sitting around stirring up $hit now:sign10:

[Kevin]

Still waiting; race season means daily driver stuff goes to the back of the line at the shop

should have lied :p

[Polo-1]

you know how to get a hold of me :p

It freak me out when I did the 380. I measured everything twice... It still was a little stuck at first. This is why I did the old plasta-gauge, triple checked. I used moly assembly lube on the bearings. The old black stuff..

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/kpie/IMG_2746.jpg

[Polo-1]

Polo-1.....With that new car you have nothing to fix or work on.....so you're just sitting around stirring up $hit now:sign10:

Still under warranty.... Got to wait...
I could sell you a set of new mains instead of asking questions;)

[Paul Workman]

Polo-1.....With that new car you have nothing to fix or work on.....so you're just sitting around stirring up $hit now:sign10:

Spend some time hovering around 7000+ and then we'll see if that LS7 can't drum up something to fix!:sign10:

(Truth be known, I can't think of a better stable mate for the ZR-1 than a C6 Z06!)

:cheers:

P.

[HIZNHRZ]

Truth be known, I can't think of a better stable mate for the ZR-1 than a C6 Z06!)


:thumbsup:

[LGAFF]

Block is done, pick it up tomorrow....stopped by the shop...rotates smooth as silk.

They told me I should use yamaha seal instead to seal the two block halves....

[LGAFF]

I Assume he meant this stuff...

http://store.58cycle.com/product_p/yam%20sealant.htm

[Polo-1]

Yes, I like the Three Bond 1104. It has been replaced by 1194 ( no lead). This was back in my 2 stroke day. This was the only stuff to seal up the no gasket cases. Yamabond is good stuff too. I was too chicken to use it on the upper to lower case halfs. Went with the old standby ( I hate that red stuff ) It dies hard brittle, the three bond/yamabond does not.

[tomtom72]

:o Okay the suspense is killing me! What was the cause of the non rotation issue Lee?

:cheers:
Tom

[Kb7tif]

Did this one ever get running?

[LGAFF]

I have the block back, it was line honed and smooth as silk now....although the liners are low milers, someone advised I should check them for roundness after they had some issues.

Then there is the ring debate, and I bought an 87 Callaway TT

Might work on it this weekend

[Kb7tif]

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii68/illenema/engine.jpg Great update. Cool
Surprised that wasn't checked at the line hone session.
Just received a complete engine, trans,both computers for my 95.

[LGAFF]

Put the crank in with gasket maker and once again it cannot be turned by hand......however I put the balancer bolt on the snout, and it turns pretty easy with a ratchet, had one of the local FBI pros stop by and they said its fine.

I am guessing its the gasket maker sticking on the crank and making it hard to turn.

Pistons will go in next, using the Total Seals......

[cvette98pacecar]

Lee who is doing all of your block, head work?

[LGAFF]

Pfieffers out of Freeport, il

[LGAFF]

Cranks now turns freely.......definately the gasket material junking up the crank.

Put the Total Seal rings on the pistons......going to run them as is no shims, etc...Total Seal is confident they will work

[LGAFF]

Main girdle torqued..... 30lbs and 45-50degrees on the 1, 3, 5 and 15ftlbs with 77.5-82 degrees...

out 8mm bolts torques to 20fltbs

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4179.jpg


Piston in with Total Seal rings
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4181.jpg

Rods in with Clevite bearings from Jerrys/ARP rod bolts from Haibeck

22ftlbs and 80-84 degrees(thats tight)

[LGAFF]

Oil pump will be next; it calls for 2 tools to align it.....will take some notes and pics of how it goes on......

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Looks good, Lee. Make #702 a good one since I'll probably own it one day. LOL

[LGAFF]

While the rod bolts are 22ftlbs and 80-85 degrees torque angle, I did an unscientific test and came up with 70-72ftlbs

Any thoughts?

(sorry posted in a hurry....corrected, made no sense)

[tomtom72]

I have a question? Would it be having one of those digital T/Q wrenches with Torque angle built in more than just a "look what I have" thing?

It seems to me that quite a few fasteners have an angle in the spec besides just a T/Q number, or am I over studying this?

:cheers:
Tom

[HAWAIIZR-1]

I have a question? Would it be having one of those digital T/Q wrenches with Torque angle built in more than just a "look what I have" thing?

It seems to me that quite a few fasteners have an angle in the spec besides just a T/Q number, or am I over studying this?

:cheers:
Tom

Tom,

I just gotta say I love the Snap On Techangle wrenches and I bought them in 1/2" and 3/8" drive when I was building the LT5. They were totally awesome and a timesaver as well as a reassuring feeling using a tool like that. I don't think they will come in handy from here on out for the torque angle unless I build another motor, but I use the standard torque feature on a regular basis. At one time I thought I would sell them after I build the motor, but I'm keeping them for sure.

Craig

[LGAFF]

It took 3 cheapass torque angle meters to get the rods done, so yep. Would be worth it. Someone have a link?

[tomtom72]

Okay, now I don't feel so lost! Thanks guys!

Lee, I look over at e-bay from time to time. I use the "new" vs the "used" and I've been looking at mainly two brands. Obviously snap-on and K-D ( because I've used their torque wrenches when I assembled old sbc's ); just as a fwiw it seems that those two have the same +/- accuracy vs other brands.

:cheers:
Tom

Craig, thank you. I always wondered about how helpful they'd be on our stuff! :thumbsup:

[HAWAIIZR-1]

It took 3 cheapass torque angle meters to get the rods done, so yep. Would be worth it. Someone have a link?

Here you go Lee. I bought mine on Ebay used for about 1/2 price, but you have to make sure you get it from some reputable sellers. I did not get mine calibrated and should have. I forgot how much it cost to get them calibrated by Snap On and it takes about several weeks turn around from Hawaii; I want to say it was over $100 each.

1/2" drive =

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?search=true&item_ID=92350&PartNo=ATECH3FR250&group_id=19918&supersede=&store=snapon-store&tool=all


3/8" drive =

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?store=snapon-store&item_ID=92349&group_ID=19918

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Okay, now I don't feel so lost! Thanks guys!

Lee, I look over at e-bay from time to time. I use the "new" vs the "used" and I've been looking at mainly two brands. Obviously snap-on and K-D ( because I've used their torque wrenches when I assembled old sbc's ); just as a fwiw it seems that those two have the same +/- accuracy vs other brands.

:cheers:
Tom

Craig, thank you. I always wondered about how helpful they'd be on our stuff! :thumbsup:

Tom,

I am a novice and was just paranoid so thought I would screw up with using other method and the thought of snaping something went through my mind.

Craig

[LGAFF]

Updated: in installing the oil pump, you first must remove the seal. The book for the 90 service manual states use alignment tool38383, which I do not have. Then I noticed that tool J-38135 has one end for pump alignment and one for seal install.....photo below. 38135 fits tightly on the crank and aligns the pump, I honestly and not sure this is absolutely needed as when I messed around with and old pump with a seal in it and with the tool, there was little variance if any.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4202.jpg


I used Jerrys oil pump o-ring packet...the large thick gasket goes on the crank; see photo
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4197.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4196.jpg

The other 3 rings go on the back of the pump, the smaller ones kid of lock in the larger single one I put a small small dab of gasket tack to hold in in place:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4198.jpg


With the pump in place and aligned



....its time for the pump seal.

Oil Pump Seal: I was not going to replace the graphite oil pump seal, then I inspected the seal and it was pitted and the edge of the graphite was chipped. So I bought a new one.....Jerry I think is the only one carrying the OEM: http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=2

The graphite seal floats in the seal frame.....install is easy and used my kent moore tools

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4193.jpg

If you don't have the kent moore tool, jerry has instructions on his site on how to use a pice of PCV: http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13&products_id=443


I also checked out my oil pump internals...look fine and pump itself is very simple...

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4195.jpg

[HAWAIIZR-1]

You're doing a great job on this Lee and good decision on the seal to replace it. I can attest to Jerry's info about the alternate method with the PCV pipe as I did not have the Kent Moore tool and it was a lifesaver. Thanks for all your documentation.

[LGAFF]

The pump must be in place to put the primary chain sprocket....although the primary sproket is composed of several pieces, mine was assembled, so it was a matter of coating 3 bolts with loctite 262 and then torquing to 20lbs....

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4203.jpg

[LGAFF]

I then put the cranksahft sprocket on: Before you put the sprocket on the Oil Pump Seal Seat(pic below) must be put on:
Large shoulder goes towards the back....

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4204.jpg


The Crankshaft sprocket them must go on....its held in place 1)because the fit is tight as hll and 2) there is a wooddruff key.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4207.jpg
May there is a trick to it, but I alligned the wooddruff slot in the sprocket by using the first wood slot in the crank, then backed the sprocket off, put the key out and placed it in the 2nd slot by the Oil Pump Seal Seat.

I then used tool J-38132 to drive the gear on (pictured)

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Untitled-3.jpg
I think heads and timing chain guides are next.

[LGAFF]

In prep for putting the heads on, I had to replace the expansion plugs that were removed.

I went to Lee Auto Parts:


Stock size is 16MM

I used Dorman 555-108 which is .625 inches of 15.89mm

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4211.jpg

Stock size back of heads; 30.3MM I used Dorman 555-021
The Dorman is 1.199 inches or 30.45mm

Pete mentioned its a good idea to stake these are they tend to leak...staking is striking the opening to create a small lip from the aluminum that keeps the plug in place.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4213.jpg

[LGAFF]

Prior to putting the heads on and when assembling the pistons, be sure to check and make sure the rods are are facing the proper direction; the larger chamfer should be facing the bob wieght.


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4214.jpg

Another easy way to check is to look at the rod number position....with the engine upside down on the stand...all of the odd numbers should be facing the same direction and all of the even numbers should be facing the same direction.

[LGAFF]

Put the heads on..... bolts need to be lubed with engine oil, then torqued in sequence 45 ftlbs 74 ftlbs 118ftlbs.

I numbered the order...the manual has them pictured as they sit so easy to get 6s/9s mixed up, etc

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4217.jpg


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4222.jpg

Threw the oil pan/front cover and breather on to cover up the engine......engine bag no longer fits

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4226.jpg

[a1991zr1]

i am enjoying your posts and would be interested in the short block for sure

[a1991zr1]

Does any one have there old plenum and cam cover bolts that they would like to part with. I could put them to great use on a project and I do not like the look of the stainless allen bolts some of you do and I respect that just not my taste, so if you would like to part with these please let me know.

[-=Jeff=-]

I probably have most of them, if not all of them.

I need to check

[XfireZ51]

Does any one have there old plenum and cam cover bolts that they would like to part with. I could put them to great use on a project and I do not like the look of the stainless allen bolts some of you do and I respect that just not my taste, so if you would like to part with these please let me know.

I have a complete set from my motor since I replaced them with the SS bolts.

Owosso huh? My wife's family is from Chesaning. Her uncle owned the Heritage House and Bonny Mill Inn. We go up there several times a year.

[a1991zr1]

small world I use Manage Riverside Pontiac Buick Gmc and My Uncle was Gary Klien mayor of cheasning

[LGAFF]

Should have posted that I am using Jerrys new head gasket, have an OEM set but wanted to see how these work....you also pick up some compression....

[LGAFF]

Footnote: with the heads on it takes only 24ftlbs to rotate the engine vs the 36ftlbs before.....


I replaced the timing chain guides wear strips, the book states that the wear strips should be replaced if there is 1mm or more of wear. I used guides from White Racing LLC. The stockers were gold colored, these were silver so I assume they may be repros...


To replace the wear guide strips you simply tap out a pin in one side of the guide with a small drill bit and then reinstall.....easy

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/10122172-N.jpg


I did make on error, the book has you put the timing chains, guides and gears on before the heads....I did not. That did not make much of a difference. I did need to remove the secondary timing gears in order to install the guides.

I placed the bottom guides in place with bolts using loctite 262 and 20ftlbs , slid the top chain guides in without bolting them in....I then dropped in the chains and the put the secondary timing gear in(but set it in the chains, did not press it in place or bolt it in)....I then bolted in the top chain guides...loctited and torqued to 20ftlbs. I then lined up the primary timing chain on the crank sprocket and pressed the secondary gear in place....the bolted in the 3 bolts and set to 20ft lbs.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Guide11.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/boltsguide.jpg

Pete thanks for the tech tips!

PS if are having issues getting the 2ndry gear on flip the engine over, it will take the slack out of the chains and make it easier!

I used the Kent Moore tools to hold the chains in place......I know they are backwards

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture028-1.jpg

[Torchred96]

Been watching this thread and just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to document everything and share it with us.

I agree with what you said about satisfaction of doing it yourself and learning something along the way..

great job.

[LGAFF]

Thanks, been interesting....I just pray when all is said and done it revs to 7500 and stays in one piece......it has not been too scary so far...cam timing will be the big challenge.

[Toyvet1]

cam timing is a piece of cake. But paying the greek is a bitch. Just watch your back,,,,,,:dancing:dancing

[LGAFF]

Added some pics above regarding timing chains/guide/gears......


Nothing too exciting tonight put the breather box on, pretty easy....gasket, baffle, and box.....


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture023-2.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture024-1.jpg

[Pete]

cam timing is a piece of cake. But paying the greek is a bitch. Just watch your back,,,,,,:dancing:dancing

The only time i'm a pain in the a$$ is, no rope on your soap. LOL

Lee,glad i could help brotha.

Pete

[tomtom72]

:o I know I said this before....but I can't say it enough. Lee, thanks for taking the time and effort to present this to the rest of us! :thumbsup:

:cheers:
Tom

[LGAFF]

Well cams/lifters are in, just need to do the timing to wrap it up. Ran into one issue today...one of the guides was sticking. I figured it was just some stray loctite, but want to make sure. I took it apart and sure enough, loctite got in the bushing. Cleaned it out and no more issues.

Had one more scare, thought I had the chains in wrong, but it was just a matter of chains loosening up...was difficult to get the Exhaust cam in, but once in and rI otated the engine it was perfect!

Well, project should start wrapping up in soon.....Better get my plenum painted:)

[tomtom72]

You guys probably know all about this site? I found it when I was searching for places to buy new T/Q wrenches. I just figured I'd pass the link along.

http://www.tooltopia.com/kd-tools-85074a.aspx

place called tooltopia.

:cheers:
Tom

[HAWAIIZR-1]

You guys probably know all about this site? I found it when I was searching for places to buy new T/Q wrenches. I just figured I'd pass the link along.

http://www.tooltopia.com/kd-tools-85074a.aspx

place called tooltopia.

:cheers:
Tom

Thanks Tom. That is a pretty good deal I must say.

[LGAFF]

Big setback, did and leakdown test and none of the valves hold pressure....all 8 cylinders failed, bigtime.....more to come.

[tccrab]

Didn't one of the FBI members run into similar issue about a year or so ago when the valves were a smidge too long after a valve job?

Gotta go do a search.....

BRB

Here it is:
http://www.zr1.net/forum/showpost.php?p=97530&postcount=25
Possibility?


TomC
'Crabs

[LGAFF]

Engine was tested with cams......

[tccrab]

Lee:

Didn't read through enough to see if you used new rings, but if you did then they're probably just not seated into the cylinder walls yet.

Perform standard engine break-in routine and then retest.

HTH!!!

TomC
'Crabs

[Bob G]

Lee do you wan't to stop buy and check it out for you?
MR 134+

[LGAFF]

Bob I am about 100% sure its a bad valve job......I am home today if you want to stop by......I pulled the D/S head and no marks on pistons, etc so appears nothing that I did....

Will be back home at 4:30 or so

[XfireZ51]

Lee do you wan't to stop buy and check it out for you?
MR 134+

Bob,

I didn't believe it when you said it, but you are even more insufferable at 134+mph than you were at 128!!!:worship:
:sign10::sign10:

[Bob G]

Don't You Just Love It

[tccrab]

Bob I am about 100% sure its a bad valve job......I am home today if you want to stop by......I pulled the D/S head and no marks on pistons, etc so appears nothing that I did....

Will be back home at 4:30 or so

Lee:

If you didn't do the valve job, then the million dollar question is who did the valve job and how on earth did they fubar it so bad?
One or two I could understand, but to goof up at least 1 valve on each cylinder seems highly unlikely.

TomC
'Crabs

[LGAFF]

Very experienced shop, not sure what the story is at this time, will withhold any judgements until the verdict is in....lets not forget that these heads had a prior valve job and ate a screw.....so there could be alot of issues. I assembled the heads, etc....so maybe its something I did...

Maybe there is not even a problem......

But here is the main reason I am concerned.....this is at 45PSI

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/th_Picture-1.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/?action=view&current=Picture-1.mp4)


Exhaust valves:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/th_Picture034-1.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/?action=view&current=Picture034-1.mp4)

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Lee,

Sorry to hear about this setback. I know when Greg VanDeventer was working on my heads there were a lot of things to consider and even with trying to get the right valve guide seals I went through some gyrations with that. To further complicate it with aftermarket camshaft grinds he worked very closely with Aaron Scott since my cams were from SGC and then we went back and forth with Jerry and Kurt about the seals till we got the right ones. I don't remember all the technical details, but these LT5s really do require some Specialists in some areas; GVD reallys knows his stuff with these heads and can surely fix the issues if needed. I hope it all works out for you. Best wishes. :cheers:

Craig

[LGAFF]

Guess it was not clear, previous pics I posted are video links showing the valves leaking.....(they make the porting look bad, its actually very good)

[LGAFF]

Well, shop called, they said no issues with the valves, that they relapped them checked them with Dykem(blue ink) and it shows a seal. I did find out that I had an issue with the valve guides, I was not aware the 90 Exhaust guides needed to be ground down before using seals....so I will be ordering 16 more guides.

I need to read Jerrys website:




Valve Stem Seal Set. Fits 91~95 ZR-1 LT5. NEW AND IMPROVED! effective 12 Jun10.

•Direct replacement of OEM valve stem seal.
•Even lower installed height than OEM seal, providing clearance for very high lift cams
•Positive seal, metal jacket design with garter spring for extended effective sealing of valve stem
•Outstanding valve spring clearance
•Serrated ring design and interference fit provides excellent stability on valve guide
•Manufactured with Viton for superior resistance to heat and wear durability
Always sold from stock on our shelf, just like all of our other products required. Sold by set of 32 only. Not sold individually. Direct replacement on stock engines. Can be used on 90 model with machining of exhaust valve guides to same specs as remaining model years.

Note : Please see our Special Tool PN ST-10067412 for installing this valve stem seal properly without damaging the seal.


Add to Cart:

•Part # 10067412
•Shipping Weight: 0.1lbs
•14 Units in Stock

[XfireZ51]

Lee,

b4 u order them, call me. I have a complete OEM set.

[Bob G]

If you replace the guides then you will have to redo the seats
also did your shop grind the seats w/stone or with a cutter ?

[LGAFF]

Bob they use a cutter......they are going to cut the guides and have a valve seal they can use.

[LGAFF]

heads are back on the motor....rolling the dice and moving forward, machine shop found no issues outside the valve seals on the exhaut. Thanks jerry for getting them out fast......

Build moving forward!

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Congrats, Lee.

[Bob G]

Do you want me to stop & leak It

[A26B]

heads are back on the motor....rolling the dice and moving forward, machine shop found no issues outside the valve seals on the exhaut. Thanks jerry for getting them out fast......

Build moving forward!

So, if valve seals were the only issue ,what did you find that prevented the engine from having compression on all cylinders?

Lee, just thinking out loud about a couple of things that could easily be overlooked.

1. valve spring seats are installed under all 32 valve springs.

2. insure the new guides are installed at the correct height. Theres not a lot of room between the underside of the spring retainer and the top of the stem seal when at full lift.

3. and, the all too infrequent problem of valve stem installed height too tall after valve & valve seat work has been performed. Hopefully the verified all of this individually on all 32 valves & ground the stem tops properly.

Any of these would be a real PITA to discover later.....

[LGAFF]

Bob if you want to stop by that would be great to get your thoughts....I need to get the cams in yet.


Jerry we should be good to go on the valve guides and seals, I had the cams in the heads and rotated them so any clearance issues should have been evident at this point..thus the need to replace the damages exhaust seals.

[A26B]

Jerry we should be good to go on the valve guides and seals, I had the cams in the heads and rotated them so any clearance issues should have been evident at this point..thus the need to replace the damages exhaust seals.

I hope it was all check measured and inspected before assembly with springs. You could have spring retainer cap contact with the seal & never feel interference by rotating the cams unless the guide was so high it caused a hard bind. It takes a lot of torque to turn a single cam against 8 valves.

How much lifter compression did you end up with on a fully extended lifter?

[LGAFF]

Leakdown test:

Cyl-%
1-22%(Exhaust valve leak)
2-8%
3-12%
4-14%
5-31%(piston rings)
6-10%
7-35%(exhaust valve seat/piston rings not sealing)
8-5%

[LGAFF]

Some question as to whether the 120ftlbs of torque on the head bolts might play a factor in the valve seating....

Looks like I will be pulling pistons 5/7 out and checking bore

Also will revisit valve seals on 1/5/7

[XfireZ51]

Xrist, wtf is going on?


Leakdown test:

Cyl-%
1-22%(Exhaust valve leak)
2-8%
3-12%
4-14%
5-31%(piston rings)
6-10%
7-35%(exhaust valve seat/piston rings not sealing)
8-5%

[LGAFF]

Spoke to one of the Mercury guys about leakdown on new motors, response is below...


The leakdown spec's we went by were 14 to 18% on green engines broke in were lower we did have some engines that were higher but only about 20 to 24 % anything higher there was a problem that need addressed. I take it this isn't a stock LT-5 :)

[LGAFF]

Pulled the D/S head today, but before doing that backed the head bolts down to 65ftlbs.....and exhaust valve leaks were 1/4 of what it was at 118ftlbs....

Will check the bores on 5/7 to see why the rings are not sealing

[Paul Workman]

Pulled the D/S head today, but before doing that backed the head bolts down to 65ftlbs.....and exhaust valve leaks were 1/4 of what it was at 118ftlbs....

Will check the bores on 5/7 to see why the rings are not sealing

If I read it right, except for the bores with rings leaking, you may be close to being done. However, the valve leak-down changing with head bolt torque comes as a surprise!:confused: It crosses my mind (as I'm sure it does yours too) that something isn't quite right, but not sure where to start on an open deck. Keeping in mind that it is still w/in the exception mentioned by the Merc guy, I guess I'd want to check some basic stuff anyway...

Since you're going to have that head of anyway (to check on the ring situation) I guess I'd have Al lay his straight-edge across the top of the block to make sure there isn't an issue there. And, I'd want to re-mic' the sleeves to make sure that none are too proud (or sunken either). And, while Al has his straight edge out, lay it across the head too. (Were either of these heads decked already??).

As for the rings, I assume the two in question are gapped correctly, yes? I guess I'd want to verify the fundamental stuff with an SOP measurement of the bores: do you have a spare ring or two you could use as a makeshift gauge to check the bores for some anomaly? Putting a ring into the empty cylinder and by placing a light source behind the ring, look for light peaking from under the edge of the ring - along the entire length of the stroke. If there is light somewhere, rotate the ring to be sure it is the bore and not an anomaly with the ring "gauge". I'd be curious too to see if the gap remained the same, i.e., in spec for the length of the bore as well. If that doesn't "shed any light" on the subject, then for sure I'd want to swap the rings on the offending pistons - with one of those rings that proved out also as a gauge - before going further.

Further? No more arrows in my quiver. Bob G or Marc or Pete might have further/different checks to make.

I'll shut up now and go back to lurking now.;)

P.

[XfireZ51]

Paul,

I had similar thought regarding height of barrels after having watched Bob and Pete do their thing a few weeks ago. I can imagine if that isn't right it would be affected by head bolt torque and show up as uneven cylinder pressure.

[LGAFF]

-Bob G has been helping me out, we are checking the roundness of the liners, possible they are not round and with new rings not seating.

As for the heads its been seen before, when you torque something 118ftlbs sht happens....and as you can see from the comments from the foreman at Mercury up to 24% leakdown was not out of the question

Rings came from the factory with acceptable spec on the gap, I am using a tighter gap than factory

[Bob G]

Lee When do you want me to come over & check the sleves
Call me

[LGAFF]

Bores and Pistons got a clean bill of health from Dr. 134.......appears to be LT-5 quirk. Total Seal advised me that they would not be surprised to see it on an unfired motor(30-35%) due to the inperfections in rings until they run a few minutes.

[Paul Workman]

Bores and Pistons got a clean bill of health from Dr. 134.......appears to be LT-5 quirk. Total Seal advised me that they would not be surprised to see it on an unfired motor(30-35%) due to the inperfections in rings until they run a few minutes.

Interesting. Did the good Dr have anything to say about the valve leakdown difference as a function of head bolt torque?? I'm curious about that. Is it an issue, or is it too within the realm of normal LT5 - as yet unfired?

P.

[LGAFF]

Well most people do not leakdown a new motor, so somewhat new territory, remember this started wtih me looking for valves hanging open due to the lifter height.

The 118ft lbs of torque on the head seems to be a factor.....also Bob brought up that building a 660lb motor on stand might also be making some issues.


I tested the valves/heads off the block, they hold fluid.

Total Seal also told me that 30% leakdown would not be impossible on new rings

Weird stuff

[LGAFF]

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16117&sid=9f426572aaf8e74154898cde5855d979&start=15


Interesting note on head distortion

[mike100]

Once I did file-to-fit rings on a sbc and the leak down was 1% on the unfired longblock. It did use oil for a few hundred miles because the finish was too fine for a fast break in, but the compression rings were good from the get-go.. A healthy 350 with 100k miles might be 7-8%.

I never used any rings more exotic than those plasma moly ones (which require a rough hone). Give me regular moly faced/steel top ring style ring sets any day.

All that said, since two cylinders are clearly valve leak air- I would suspect valve/lifter/stem height the most.

[mike100]

thinking out loud:

How doable would it be to install the starter and maybe lower the assembled longblock onto some wood on the floor and run it in for a few times using a 12v battery to run it in for 10 seconds at a time (spark plugs removed, oil in sump). This would prime the lifters and seat the rings a little bit.

[Paul Workman]

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16117&sid=9f426572aaf8e74154898cde5855d979&start=15


Interesting note on head distortion


Using a torque plate...WITH the spark plugs installed...OR the end valves might whistle...gets the "Arty Johnson - 'Veddy Intorestink!' " award!:thumbsup:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/VeddyIntadestink-1.gif

For those of you too young to remember the "Laugh-In" comedy hour...you missed a classic that got pulled for being NON-PC! (I'm still laughing!)


p.

[Paul Workman]

thinking out loud:

How doable would it be to install the starter and maybe lower the assembled longblock onto some wood on the floor and run it in for a few times using a 12v battery to run it in for 10 seconds at a time (spark plugs removed, oil in sump). This would prime the lifters and seat the rings a little bit.

I did essentially that, Mike. I lowered the long block into the engine bay to rest on the motor mounts - used a 2x4 under the pan for support, and cranked it in place a bit before testing. (Ooops! Don't forget to disconnect the fuel pump connector (under the fuel door lid...[sigh:o].)

I figured if it failed, it would only take a few minutes to have it outta there again. And, if it passed (and it did - the second time), I'd just finish the installation.;)

P.

[tomtom72]

Sorry Lee. I can't resist. I guess this isn't something I can do in my parking space! Drat! I gotta find me a garage to rent for just one winter so I can do all this at one sitting.

:o Sorry for the rant guys. It is frustrating to have a stock slow ZR-1!:redface:

:cheers:
Tom

[LGAFF]

Spoke to my contact at Mercury...he said that he did not think that the valves or rings would be impacted by using the stand....and he was right.
I tried doing it by supporting the engine and it made 0 difference.

He stated that the engines he referred to as green were low hours/miles....and that he does not recall doing unfired engine.

He did mention that he has seen issues with people not checking to see if the valves were being hung open after valve jobs.

He also mentioned that it was a known problem that the liners did disort at the bottom and it sometimes resulted in piston slap but performance was not affected.

Changing the guides can make it difficult seal the valves also......this is addressed apparently by lapping the valves with varying degrees of compound working through to lighter grits.

In the end, he agreed...if the valves hold fluid....if the bores are round...and pistons are ok...put it together and see what happens.

[LGAFF]

Just for shits and grins I did the factoray cam timing procedure, but did not torque the cam bolts to spec....surprising after a few rotations..the timing held true.

In talking with my contact at Mercury...apparently the cam timing slippage actually occurred at the initial start of each engine...

The #1 exhaust valve still has me very concerned....

[Pete]

Lee,check leak down with cams on,just to make sure no valves are hanging open.

Pete

[LGAFF]

Pete, this is the same valve that I checked last time.....and it leaks air and the other exhaust valve on #1 does not.....odd since both held fluid.

[A26B]

It wouldn't be odd if the valve stem on the leaking exhaust valve was too high or oil was trapped in the lifter.

[LGAFF]

These lifters are new, no oil.....stems were all cut to the same height and when I removed the cams last time it still leaked......will look at it more today


Some day this thread will say....fired up the engine no problems car ran great:)

[tomtom72]

These lifters are new, no oil.....stems were all cut to the same height and when I removed the cams last time it still leaked......will look at it more today


Some day this thread will say....fired up the engine no problems car ran great:)

Man I hope so. Sincerely I do. My brain hurts from reading about all the "quirks" that our motors seem to have. I can't remember ever having this many Q's while assembling my first sbc. Man what a different animal our stuff seems to be.

Lee, straight up, thanks for this thread!

:cheers:
Tom

[LGAFF]

Did the factory cam timing and then used some basic math to set exhaust at 108......I did not lock them down yet. I bought two different dial gauges and none will sit on the lifter.

Once I can get the dial gauge to verify the specs I will lock them in...

[LGAFF]

Checked all my timing, I am at max lift at 114 intake,which is the stock pinned setting, and 108 max lift on the exhaust.

I used a flexible dial indicator from Harbor Freight....remove the flex arm from the vise grip and the arm threads into the IH and other bolt holes.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture066-1.jpg

I had trouble putting the indicator on the lifter. To address remove the small point at the bottom on the dial gauge(it unscrews) cut a piece of coat hanger about 7.5-7.75"long, put a slight curve at the tip(rest it on the lifter)....the coat hanger will slide in nicely against the cam, there is even a small groove it can rest in.

pic of dial mounted ......you can see coat hanger

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture063-1.jpg

Wheel at 51 degrees, top cams pinned...


curved bottom of hanger on the lifter:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture065-1.jpg

[LGAFF]

timing exhaust cams:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture064-1.jpg

[LGAFF]

Just something to ponder and engineers please verify my math....diameter of of the cam base circle is about 28.77mm and if I remember my high school math that makes the circumference 90mm....which means the one degree on the camshaft is 1/4mm?

[LGAFF]

360 degrees in a 90mm Circle would mean 1 degree=.25MM correct? I guess the point I am making is that it does not take much to move the cam a few degrees in reference to the crank.....

I am doing a novice write up on cam timinig....

[LGAFF]

This camdegree setup is genius; uses the plug hole as a stand and two dial gauges split off...

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1308506&stc=1&d=1303099334

[Paul Workman]

Just something to ponder and engineers please verify my math....diameter of of the cam base circle is about 28.77mm and if I remember my high school math that makes the circumference 90mm....which means the one degree on the camshaft is 1/4mm?

"Base circle", in my mind anyway, refers to the lobe(s). That measurement threw me before I realized you were referring to the cam journal. A 28.77mm base circle would = one heck of a re-grind!;)

P.

[LGAFF]

right paul, Hard to believe how small the adjustments are......D/s is done ended up at 113 and 108 locked down and loctited. With Jerrys torque bolts process, is very easy and does not seem like the cams move.....on PS I will mark the cams to see....

[LGAFF]

P/s is done 112.5 Intake and 108.5 Exhaust....
D/S is 113 Intake and 108 Exhaust

Home stretch.......

Paint plenum
Seal down fron cover
Oil Pan
Oil filter housing
Cam Covers

[LGAFF]

Every project needs a name, right?
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/SS-2.jpg

[Jagdpanzer]

Lee,
"LGAFF's Stillwater Revival"
also has a nice ring to it.
470 posts so far on this thread.
Thanks for sharing your LT5 jouney with us.
You're in sight of the checkerd flag.
Good luck on the final laps.

[LGAFF]

Its either that or the "Never Ending Project"

[LGAFF]

Oh so close...

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture076.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture077.jpg


Down the rabbit hole:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/Picture078.jpg

[LGAFF]

Whats left

-Seal Cam Covers
-Put in tensioners
-Dampner
-Oil Filter Housing

Paint Plenum

Going to clean up the garage tomorrow and get organized......

[A26B]

Looks real purty Lee, but why are the front cover studs sticking out the front of the water pump?

[LGAFF]

Jerry thats a gentle reminder to myself that those bolts got me 2X, when I first tried to pulled the cover could not figure why it would not come off.....then realized my tools were on top of the nuts......When I put it back on, forgot the same......I am guessing they set it up that way for clearance to something,.

[LGAFF]

Well I pulled the tensioners out and it looks like someone tried to reload them, both were locked together and would not separate, one was chipped and cracked.....I put them in the freezer for an hour and they came apart. So I need one of the tensioners....or can take one off the 966 motor.

I got the balancer installed today and plenum painted also

[Polo-1]

I might have the passenger side, have to look.

[A26B]

Tensioners are the same for all year models. L&R are not interchangable.

[LGAFF]

Well the exhaust is off, hope trans is out sometime tomorrow....should be progressing to installing the motor:cheers:

[Blue Flame Restorations]

You need to be installing that LT5 into #702. LOL

[XfireZ51]

You need to be installing that LT5 into #702. LOL

I figured this was comin! ;)

[LGAFF]

making room...

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4486.jpg

[LGAFF]

Well I had a setback a few weeks ago, there is an internal plug inside the head in the timing chain area....this plug was not in my heads. This required me to retime the cams, as the chain tensioners had to be moved to insert the plugs....

So here is where we stand...

Trans out....
Cam covers sealed, and tensioners set

Bought an engine hoist today...

So old engine should be out this weekend and new one in...

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4520.jpg

[4-cam]

Its been great following this thread, cant wait for the results

[LGAFF]

out with the old.....got some cleaning to do ....engine compartment and the garage..mess

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4532.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4533.jpg

[LGAFF]

One small step for man, one giant leap for concluding this thread!

aligning Motor mounts was a pain in the ***

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4549.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4550.jpg

[Jagdpanzer]

Lee,
You're on the home stretch and will have her back on the road rowing through the gears in no time.
Was it much trouble stabbing the new engine in with the headers attached? Seems this would save a lot of time and knuckle skin over putting the headers on after the engine is in.

[LGAFF]

headers where not an issue, I had the engine in position in less than 10 minutes....motor mounts took a long time to align...maybe there is a trick...but I do not know it

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Git er dun!

[Pete]

headers where not an issue, I had the engine in position in less than 10 minutes....motor mounts took a long time to align...maybe there is a trick...but I do not know it

Yeah,it's called do not install headers till motor is in and leave the mount cross bolt/screw loose since you replaced mount.

Lee,sorry i missed your call i did not see it till a few hours later.

Vroom Vroom tomorrow :)
Let me now how she goes.

Pete

[LGAFF]

I was callling about the mount, thats what I did......the headers were easy to get it, just need to be able to tilt the motor back

[LGAFF]

*Accessories are on....Alt...PS...Tensioner
*IH, Injectors on
*Starter in
*Coils in
*Flywheel on


Not much longer, hope to have the trans in tomorrow...

[LGAFF]

McLeod Flywheel
Stock clutch
Centerforce presure plate
Trans....C-beam all on the car.

Left to do...

-Put on...
Tighten D/S motor mount
Plenum
TB
AH
Coolant Tubes
Exhaust

Fire it up....

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Lee,

You are getting very close now. Best wishes and hoping everything goes well the first time. You also win the record for longest thread in history.

[tomtom72]

This has been an epic thread! Thanks for sharing the skinny on this operation Lee.:thumbsup:


I can't wait to hear the recording of her first start up!

:cheers:
Tom

[Pete]

Lee,

You are getting very close now. Best wishes and hoping everything goes well the first time. You also win the record for longest thread in history.


Yeah,what he said :)


Pete

[Daniel_Mc]

Hey Lee how is this coming along?

[LGAFF]

I have 20 PSI oil pressure just running off the starter

I have 210 PSI Compression

I think its time to put the plenum on ....hook up the exhaust.

I expect to start it up tomorrow.:saluting:

[HAWAIIZR-1]

I have 20 PSI oil pressure just running off the starter

I have 210 PSI Compression

I think its time to put the plenum on ....hook up the exhaust.

I expect to start it up tomorrow.:saluting:

Sound good Lee! Best wishes again and hoping perfect results with this project. :pray

Soon it will be :dancing time.

Craig

[Daniel_Mc]

Sweet!!

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Cool!

[tomtom72]

=D> I'm sure you'll look like this --->:mrgreen: after you run it for the first time!

:cheers:
Tom