E15 and maybe E30 fuel ?

[scottfab]

http://woodwardnews.net/local/x94284...cause-problems

I've not seen any E15 for sale around the NW.
Seems to be a no no for our cars.
Yet if this trend continues we'd need to harden our
cars against E15 and possibly E30.

I'm sure this thread will wonder and be hijacked one
way or another but......
What's everyone' s guess as to a list of changes to our
cars that would be needed?
1. Fuel tank? (mine is not rubber lined)
2. Fuel lines?
3. Pumps?
4. injectors?
5. regulator?
6. ECM block/trim values?
7. other?

[Polo-1]

Just with the "may contain up to 10%" out there now, has wiped out the o-rings on my old gas can lids

[scottfab]

Might be a good time to have fuel/alcohol resistant parts laying around for any future work I do on the fuel system.

http://www.marcorubber.com/materialguide.htm

OR


http://www.manuf-rubber.com/pdf/Material%20Guide.pdf

[Fully Vetted]

This may be a stupid question but are there any additive's we can use to offset what the ethanol is doing?

[Hib Halverson]

There is no additive available yet which can counteract the ethanol's ability to attack certain kinds of rubber/plastic parts. There also is no additive available to counteract ethanol's corrosiveness to the metals used in 2G ZR1 fuel systems.

The OE's use stainless steel and special plastics in the fuel systems of flex fuel vehicles. The only way long term use of of E15 or E30 would be tolerated by old cars like 2G ZR1s is if the fuel systems were replaced with parts made of modern materials...a scenario that is hardly likely.

That said, we all had better be ready with some solution because not that Pres. Obama has won reelection, you can be the environmentalists to whom he owes some votes, will get the introduction of E15 approved.

The scuttlebutt is that gas stations will be required to have specific tanks and dispensiing equipment for E15 along with their existing tanks and dispensers for E10...which, BTW, typically is about E07-E08 most of the time.

Let's hope that's what happens.

As for calibration, I think E15 can be used by out cars but the cal at WOT may need to be changed for best performance.

[Fully Vetted]

I'm sure by the time it passes and E15+ starts becoming readily available that STA-BIL, RxP, Lucas, Red Line and all the other fuel additive companies will be all over this. Too much money on the table to ignore.

[efnfast]

StarTron advertises that they fix ethanol. Does anybody run this on a regular basis?

[Hog]

I have seen non-flexfuel fuel pumps ran on E85 for 100,000miles disassembled, and inspected. Other than being clean, there was no visible damage to to pump, sender, or sender lines, with no obvious signs of plastics or metals being brittle/scored or pocked. I cant find my pics either, sorry.

These were high pressure GM pumps destined for 1996-99 GMT400 trucks which operate on 62-66 psi of rail pressure. These pumps will push 100psi when dead-headed. These are the same pumps that are recommended by GM for use with their 502hp Ramjet 502, 510hp Ramjet ZL1 and 350hp Ramjet 350- crate engines.

Maybe North America needs to step back from annhydrous ethanol(less than 1% water by volume) ti hydrous ethanol(up to 4.99% water).
When hydrous ethanol is used to produce E15, the actual amount of water content is roughly 0.95%.
At this 0.95% water content, the dry corrosion of ethanol is halted

Not only would hydrous ethanol reduce dry corrosion, but its cheaper to produce than annhydrous ammonia as a final heating step to dehydrate the ethanol for annhydrous ethanol usage.

The 1st flex fuel vehicle was the 1908-1927 Ford Model T as it was fitted with a car with adjustments that allowed either E100(100% ethanol-well actually 96.5% ethanol because 100% ethanol is a physical impossibiliuty via distillation means, but since the water is naturally occurring and isnt an additive it can be marketted as E100-some countries do market E100 as E95 to avoid the perception of false advertising.

Dont have visions of your gas tank having a layer of gasoline/ethanol and a layer of water in it. Phase seperation does NOT occur in alcohol blended fuels.

When I tune a PCM/ECM I change the Stoich ratio GM has entered in the PCM from 14.7:1 to 14.2:1 to account for the E10.
Up here we have been running E10 for over 20 years now.

We do have to realize that rubber will naturally degrade, some of these parts that we see physically degrading may be doing so simply from age, in which time, ethanol mixtures have coincidentally beed introduced.

"Mixtures of up to E15 do not require modifications unless it has a carbuerator and/or the vehicle is older than 15-20years old as of 2007." That kinda puts the GEN2 ZR-1 in limbo territory.
Obviously there is an issue with the LT5's injectors from 1990-92 as adressed by Mr. Haibeck.(page 14).
http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20W...T5%20Today.pdf

peace
Hog

[Kevin]

from what i've read i have one car that will be drivable with e15

[Schrade]

Originally Posted by Hog

I have seen non-flexfuel fuel pumps ran on E85 for 100,000miles disassembled, and inspected. Other than being clean, there was no visible damage to to pump, sender, or sender lines, with no obvious signs of plastics or metals being brittle/scored or pocked. I cant find my pics either, sorry.

These were high pressure GM pumps destined for 1996-99 GMT400 trucks which operate on 62-66 psi of rail pressure. These pumps will push 100psi when dead-headed. These are the same pumps that are recommended by GM for use with their 502hp Ramjet 502, 510hp Ramjet ZL1 and 350hp Ramjet 350- crate engines.

Maybe North America needs to step back from annhydrous ethanol(less than 1% water by volume) ti hydrous ethanol(up to 4.99% water).
When hydrous ethanol is used to produce E15, the actual amount of water content is roughly 0.95%.
At this 0.95% water content, the dry corrosion of ethanol is halted

Not only would hydrous ethanol reduce dry corrosion, but its cheaper to produce than annhydrous ammonia as a final heating step to dehydrate the ethanol for annhydrous ethanol usage.

The 1st flex fuel vehicle was the 1908-1927 Ford Model T as it was fitted with a car with adjustments that allowed either E100(100% ethanol-well actually 96.5% ethanol because 100% ethanol is a physical impossibiliuty via distillation means, but since the water is naturally occurring and isnt an additive it can be marketted as E100-some countries do market E100 as E95 to avoid the perception of false advertising.

Dont have visions of your gas tank having a layer of gasoline/ethanol and a layer of water in it. Phase seperation does NOT occur in alcohol blended fuels.

When I tune a PCM/ECM I change the Stoich ratio GM has entered in the PCM from 14.7:1 to 14.2:1 to account for the E10.
Up here we have been running E10 for over 20 years now.

We do have to realize that rubber will naturally degrade, some of these parts that we see physically degrading may be doing so simply from age, in which time, ethanol mixtures have coincidentally beed introduced.

"Mixtures of up to E15 do not require modifications unless it has a carbuerator and/or the vehicle is older than 15-20years old as of 2007." That kinda puts the GEN2 ZR-1 in limbo territory.
Obviously there is an issue with the LT5's injectors from 1990-92 as adressed by Mr. Haibeck.(page 14).
http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20W...T5%20Today.pdf

peace
Hog

This INCREASES injector pulsewidth?

And does the BLM deviate from 128 after the change?

No phase separation under BOTH static and dynamic conditions?