Tuning for NOT Gasoline - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

XfireZ51 · 02-02-2014

Some time ago I believe Halverson brought up the subject of tuning for E85 and the LT-5. That's been something done for the LS-7 so understandable Hib would bring it up here. Of course, newer Powertrain management systems are automatically adapting to various fuels thru flex fuel systems. For many of us
E10 is the primary fuel available so I thought I'd would just reiterate a point when dealing w any fuel other than straight gas.

Forget AFR for a moment and think in terms of Lambda. Lambda is "agnostic" to the type of fuel being used. A Lambda of 1 is always stoich for that fuel. If you are burning E10, a Lambda of 1 occurs at an AFR of less than 14.7 for a WB calibrated to E0. By telling the ECM you are shooting for an AFR of 14.3, the ECM uses that as part of its PW calc, automatically making the mixture richer in respect to a 14.7 stoich, but correct for a 14.3 stoich.
Now I understand that when I see a Lambda of 1 on my ZT-2, it's saying that I am at 14.3(the AFR commanded in my cal) although my AFR gauge reads 14.7.

That's why just setting the Stoich AFR does the trick because the NBO2 switching point will be for whatever fuel basically. And since AFR adjusts the PW, more fuel will be added(if lowering the AFR) correspondingly to hit 128 if you are tuning for C/L. Tuning for E85 then would follow in the same way. So for WOT tuning, unless your WB can be re calibrated for the fuel being used, the indicated AFR would need to be corrected. As an example, if I tune WOT to an indicated 13:1AFR
straight gas, I should really be down around an indicated 12.6:1 for E10 IF I am using UNCORRECTED AFR to tune. 13/14.7= .884, then 14.3*.884= 12.6 indicated.

This is where a bin switcher becomes helpful for us. You could have multiple cals loaded using various AFR constants depending on the fuel being used. You would do that manually. Incorporating a flex fuel sensor would be cool to then automatically invoke the appropriate calibration.

mike100 · 02-02-2014

Has anybody done any good dyno testing of what the difference with a pure gasoline tune puts out vs an adjusted E10 calibration? I thought about using a BIN switcher once, but not sure i wanted to run the wires thru the ecm case.

btw,
not sure the regular tunerpro definition has the addressing for the target AFR, but I might like to play with that and the Inj offset now that I have an Ostrich and can make changes more easily.

XfireZ51 · 02-02-2014

Mike

Here's a good thread from ls1tech re:E85. My post dealt with just the tune. Other aspects involve the additional fuel required and delivering it.
http://m.ls1tech.com/forums/showthre...395&styleid=25

rkreigh · 02-03-2014

I also was inquiring about E85 tuning hoping to tame the high HC (140+) and get down to the insane 48 HC needed to pass the roller tests here in VA

the Raptor solution might do that but I don't know if they have a flex fuel sensor which really does help.

I'm going flex fuel and e85 with a Haltech S2000 ecm on my TT z06 in the hopes of picking up a bit of HP and reliability

with E85, we could easily bump up the compression on the LT5 and gain some power

the fuel system would need to be upgraded with bigger pumps, e85 fuel lines, and bigger injectors

an expensive proposition time you go through the tuning!

RHanselman · 02-03-2014

Yes the Mega Squirt and Raptor development ECM will tune for flex fuel. You just need the sensor.

Of course the fuel system also needs to be modified for E85...

rkreigh · 02-04-2014

that is awesome.

when do you think it will be available and how much? love to hear more about the TT project

you KNOW how anxious I am.

I'll post up here my experiences with E85 and the Haltech on the Z06

looking to use that car as the "experiment" before I take the plunge and do E85 + TT on the ZR-1

I think E85 will help tremendously

also like to hear about the costs to run the "stretched liners" and mill a receiver groove in the heads. sounds like some precision machine work but the way to go to run the high cyl pressure and not blow HG

the AES liners might improve sealing with a good set of head studs too.

all it takes is money, and LOTS of it!

02-02-2014	#1
XfireZ51 Join Date: May 2007 Location: Chicagoland, IL Posts: 9,697	Tuning for NOT Gasoline Some time ago I believe Halverson brought up the subject of tuning for E85 and the LT-5. That's been something done for the LS-7 so understandable Hib would bring it up here. Of course, newer Powertrain management systems are automatically adapting to various fuels thru flex fuel systems. For many of us E10 is the primary fuel available so I thought I'd would just reiterate a point when dealing w any fuel other than straight gas. Forget AFR for a moment and think in terms of Lambda. Lambda is "agnostic" to the type of fuel being used. A Lambda of 1 is always stoich for that fuel. If you are burning E10, a Lambda of 1 occurs at an AFR of less than 14.7 for a WB calibrated to E0. By telling the ECM you are shooting for an AFR of 14.3, the ECM uses that as part of its PW calc, automatically making the mixture richer in respect to a 14.7 stoich, but correct for a 14.3 stoich. Now I understand that when I see a Lambda of 1 on my ZT-2, it's saying that I am at 14.3(the AFR commanded in my cal) although my AFR gauge reads 14.7. That's why just setting the Stoich AFR does the trick because the NBO2 switching point will be for whatever fuel basically. And since AFR adjusts the PW, more fuel will be added(if lowering the AFR) correspondingly to hit 128 if you are tuning for C/L. Tuning for E85 then would follow in the same way. So for WOT tuning, unless your WB can be re calibrated for the fuel being used, the indicated AFR would need to be corrected. As an example, if I tune WOT to an indicated 13:1AFR straight gas, I should really be down around an indicated 12.6:1 for E10 IF I am using UNCORRECTED AFR to tune. 13/14.7= .884, then 14.3.884= 12.6 indicated. This is where a bin switcher becomes helpful for us. You could have multiple cals loaded using various AFR constants depending on the fuel being used. You would do that manually. Incorporating a flex fuel sensor would be cool to then automatically invoke the appropriate calibration. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Former Membership Chairman Former ZR-1 Registry - BOD 1972 Corvette 4speed base Coupe SOLD long time ago 1984 Corvette Z-51/4+3 SOLD 1992 Corvette ZR-1 Aqua/Gray #474 SOLD 1992 Corvette ZR-1 Black Rose/Cognac #458 2014 Honda VFR Interceptor DX Last edited by XfireZ51; 02-02-2014 at 11:22 AM.*

02-02-2014	#2
mike100 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: San Marcos CA Posts: 1,802	Re: Tuning for NOT Gasoline Has anybody done any good dyno testing of what the difference with a pure gasoline tune puts out vs an adjusted E10 calibration? I thought about using a BIN switcher once, but not sure i wanted to run the wires thru the ecm case. btw, not sure the regular tunerpro definition has the addressing for the target AFR, but I might like to play with that and the Inj offset now that I have an Ostrich and can make changes more easily.

02-02-2014	#3
XfireZ51 Join Date: May 2007 Location: Chicagoland, IL Posts: 9,697	Re: Tuning for NOT Gasoline Mike Here's a good thread from ls1tech re:E85. My post dealt with just the tune. Other aspects involve the additional fuel required and delivering it. http://m.ls1tech.com/forums/showthre...395&styleid=25 __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Former Membership Chairman Former ZR-1 Registry - BOD 1972 Corvette 4speed base Coupe SOLD long time ago 1984 Corvette Z-51/4+3 SOLD 1992 Corvette ZR-1 Aqua/Gray #474 SOLD 1992 Corvette ZR-1 Black Rose/Cognac #458 2014 Honda VFR Interceptor DX

02-03-2014	#4
rkreigh Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alex VA Posts: 1,087	Re: Tuning for NOT Gasoline I also was inquiring about E85 tuning hoping to tame the high HC (140+) and get down to the insane 48 HC needed to pass the roller tests here in VA the Raptor solution might do that but I don't know if they have a flex fuel sensor which really does help. I'm going flex fuel and e85 with a Haltech S2000 ecm on my TT z06 in the hopes of picking up a bit of HP and reliability with E85, we could easily bump up the compression on the LT5 and gain some power the fuel system would need to be upgraded with bigger pumps, e85 fuel lines, and bigger injectors an expensive proposition time you go through the tuning! __________________ 95 390 LPE ZR1 (505 rwhp) LSV = Lingenfelter Super Vette Twin Turbo 2003 Z06 (800 RWHP)

02-03-2014	#5
RHanselman Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Cresson, TX Posts: 970	Re: Tuning for NOT Gasoline Yes the Mega Squirt and Raptor development ECM will tune for flex fuel. You just need the sensor. Of course the fuel system also needs to be modified for E85... __________________ Ron Hanselman Founding Member #80 CM Lifetime Member #1093 1991 #383 Twin Turbo 1993 #099 Ruby, Jeal 368 w/Snake Skinner body 1961 White with Red Int

02-04-2014	#6
rkreigh Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alex VA Posts: 1,087	Re: Tuning for NOT Gasoline that is awesome. when do you think it will be available and how much? love to hear more about the TT project you KNOW how anxious I am. I'll post up here my experiences with E85 and the Haltech on the Z06 looking to use that car as the "experiment" before I take the plunge and do E85 + TT on the ZR-1 I think E85 will help tremendously also like to hear about the costs to run the "stretched liners" and mill a receiver groove in the heads. sounds like some precision machine work but the way to go to run the high cyl pressure and not blow HG the AES liners might improve sealing with a good set of head studs too. all it takes is money, and LOTS of it! __________________ 95 390 LPE ZR1 (505 rwhp) LSV = Lingenfelter Super Vette Twin Turbo 2003 Z06 (800 RWHP)