Building a beast...doing a 391

[EvanZR1]

A few months ago I had a head gasket fail on my 91 Steel Blue that I bought end of last year update: turns out it was way worse.
At some point in its life a hose clamp had been dropped in the intake.
It apparently sat there for years and then one day, the wife says she hasn't ridden in my new Corvette. So I back it out of the garage (starts fine), she gets in and shuts the door and it suddenly stumbles and start running really rough (not that I'm saying this is all her fault :) ). So instead of just replacing the head gaskets, I decided I might as well have a 391 build with cams done by Pete. :mrgreen:

I know, how the heck do I go from needing a head gasket to building a 391?!?! Well, it all starts with the little statement of "while you're in there...". ;) I'd already been planning to have the top end ported, but since the heads were going to come of for gaskets, that turned into let's port those too. Which was quickly followed by: it's not that much more to build a 391. Which of course was followed by, let's talk about cams since the motor is already going to be out. :-D

Pete will also be doing a little other work for me at the same time:
installing OBX long tubes, DRM coilovers and a few other little odds and ends. Should make for an absolute beast of a car once it's done!

[Demps]

Nicely done! You'll love it.

Balance ride height with clearance v stance & put urethane bushings on lower rear shocks (at a minimum).

Ted

[Flyman 27]

Sounds like a real Beast!
Can you keep us updated on progress and rough costs? I know that many of us would be interested.
Do you know what caused the head gasket problem?

[gtcollins@maxnet.co.nz]

Sounds like a cool plan

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Paul Workman]

Wuz hopin' to do that very thing last winter. BUT! Mr. tax man and a wedding teamed up to put it on hold for another season.

DO let us know how you like it! :dancing

[efnfast]

What does it take to turn a 350 into a 391?
What is the expected hp?

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Nice!!! Best wishes with the build.


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[EvanZR1]

Don't know for sure what caused the head gasket failure. Car has 100K miles on it, but it did sit with very few miles put on it for a significant amount of time (5+ years). I drove the car back from Baltimore to Dallas with no issues, but only a few times since getting it home. While I don't abuse my cars, I do drive them fully (all the way to rev limit) and had taken her for a cruise the weekend before the gasket failed and ran her pretty hard. Gasket failed the next weekend about a minute after starting her up (white smoke, low coolant warning, knock sound).

As for questions of what it takes to do a 391 (and cost), best to contact Pete. He has a post here about 391 build. (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28322) I will say that the cost of a 391 from Pete is way less than any other quoted numbers I've seen.

Expected power for 391 is 575-600HP (including full porting), plus another 25HP for cams. I may go a little more aggressive with cams, so we'll see how it ends up. Would be awesome if we could hit 540RWHP, which is about what stock C6 ZR1s do, but we'll just have to see what she actually does.

[BigJohn]

What does it take to turn a 350 into a 391?
What is the expected hp?

Crank, rods and pistons

And lots of money 💰

[Karl]

Crank, rods and pistons

And lots of money 💰


Actually just new pistons and a newly sleeved block. Pete's 391 retains the factory rods and crankshaft.

I gotta get another Z soon!

[BigJohn]

Actually just new pistons and a newly sleeved block. Pete's 391 retains the factory rods and crankshaft.

I gotta get another Z soon!

Cool that would save increased piston speed
Stroked engines have increased piston speed in the cylinders

[XfireZ51]

If u already have cams, ported top end and heads, Dr. Greekenstein’s big bore motor is a pretty budget minded way of giving ur LT5 a very healthy boost in hp and torque.

[EvanZR1]

Car is off to Pete's.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fkib0b61030fj1/2018-05-17%2019.45.31sm.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iawho2yipkhesgg/2018-05-17%2019.45.52sm.jpg?raw=1

[XfireZ51]

Just imagine. It won’t LOOK any different when u get it back.

[EvanZR1]

Haven't posted in a while, here's a bunch of pics to catch up:

Pics from when Pete started digging into it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/szws9hm5rbr4fgd/20180605_110524.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/94pyomstnicekzx/20180605_110546.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/18ahz1slbdzc9tx/20180605_112028.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uatv7qtqepw8jtm/20180614_102258.jpg?raw=1

Milkshake:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/foghthfe9m3qal6/20180616_071455.jpg?raw=1

Engine coming out:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2rbhywr7lcpiq3/20180615_145844.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x630ysa7hpvxeud/20180615_150716.jpg?raw=1

Reground cams:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tmz429lymzkdrl5/cams.jpg?raw=1

Unwanted guest (mouse nest):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2g3r2yttp60rn3e/mouse%20nest.jpg?raw=1

[EvanZR1]

Porting pics:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/drrz7x51vcrh6xv/port1.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4rcl9uqv4wwxr3/port2.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/prvtwzgqdltrklf/port3.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w9sfb7zxr9dth3y/port4.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jvdu0j3r47mgy7u/port5.jpg?raw=1

[Flyman 27]

That looks like a really nice porting job!

[-=Jeff=-]

Pete does great work

[AnthonyGS]

Where is Pete? Closer to TX than Marc? After my Miata engine swap, I’m super tempted to have my ZR-1 warmed up a bit. $10k for 500hp is a bargain compared to my Porsche or Mazda.

[XfireZ51]

Both Pete and Marc are part of the FBI and located here in Chicagoland.

[USAFPILOT]

Gonna be awesome! Steel blue is such a cool color. I know just what would make it pop!

[EvanZR1]

So not related to the build, but I picked up a set of Shelby Series 1 wheels for the car yesterday.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yhlab1vjhp7o8nx/Shelby%20wheels.jpg?raw=1

[G8nightman]

Nice wheels!

[AnthonyGS]

Awesome wheels! The final product will be amazing. I look forward to seeing more.

[-=Jeff=-]

Love the wheels.. How old are those tires though?

[EvanZR1]

Tires are a little old, but that's ok I'll probably put some R888Rs on since it's not a daily driver.

[onetinsoldier]

Must be using like near a 4.125 bore like a 400 sbc , rod length is about the same , little shorter stroke , compression height probably the same or zero deck , an 8.92 with 9.03 deck height ?

[EvanZR1]

You'd have to ask Pete. Here's his post on the 391 availability. (http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28322&highlight=391)

[EvanZR1]

But yes, if the stroke is remaining the same (3.66 stock), it would have to be 4.125 bore.

[EvanZR1]

No new pics, but block is back from the machine shop, which means Pete can really get to work now.

[Regimof3]

Do you have a projected date?

[EvanZR1]

Do you have a projected date?

When it gets done? :rolleyes: Seriously though, probably another 1-2 months. I've got other items (coil overs, AC fix, gauge cluster rebuild, shifter install, shift light install and a few other items) that are being done too. Sucks not to have the car this long, but worth it to get as much done as possible at once. With entire exterior repaint and interior redo, the car will now be virtually complete restoration with all the engine work and other fixes.

[EvanZR1]

Engine assembly in progress:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8101bp3bahwdij6/assembly%201.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jx7j3dl02369837/assembly%202.jpg?raw=1

[Jagdpanzer]

Looking good!
What compression ratio?


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[Jitse]

Nice closed deck !:dancing

[onetinsoldier]

Looks nice ! Not sure what oil they told you to use to break it in , if they haven't , you might want to ask . A lot of builders use conventional oil, then after break in period, you can switch to synthetic . Its just builders preference !

[FU]

Love that closed deck !!!!

[EvanZR1]

What compression ratio?

Can't find the info now, but I believe we were talking 11:1 (or slightly over).

[EvanZR1]

So I was off a little, talked to Pete and we're doing 12:1.

[Paul Workman]

:happy1:

[XfireZ51]

Nice work by Dr. Greekenstein.

[Nacho_ZR1]

Car is off to Pete's.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fkib0b61030fj1/2018-05-17%2019.45.31sm.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iawho2yipkhesgg/2018-05-17%2019.45.52sm.jpg?raw=1

Hi Evan! Longtime no speak :handshak: GORGEOUS SteelBlue! That was always my fave color on the Z's!

Good luck with the build and I will be subscribed to this thread watching your progress :)

-Carlos

[EvanZR1]

Motor is assembled and going in:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0pw9m3ydu3xhpq/assembled%201.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/38e805ltqeewj0x/assembled%202.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/38e805ltqeewj0x/assembled%202.jpg?raw=1

Pete also started tearing down the old engine, and turns out it wasn't a head gasket. Said it it looked like it swallowed a worm clamp. His guess is someone left one sitting somewhere when doing maintenance at some point in the past and it got sucked in and probably sat in the intake manifold, then finally worked it's way into #6 cylinder. Cracked the liner, bent the valves and damaged one of the cams. Would certainly explain why it wasn't running well. :eek:

[EvanZR1]

Motor is back in the car and running:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8bbokaqyrekmocv/motor%20in%201.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o545hn6wieh5hm6/motor%20in%202.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6m03d4dne3k4v9/motor%20in%203.jpg?raw=1

But of course nothing goes smoothly, Pete said the voltage was dropping the longer the car runs, so time for a new alternator. Also waiting on shocks to come back from being machined to fit coil overs. Few other minor issues to fix once all that's done, but it's getting closer.

Pete also fixed the fit of the exhaust:
Previous:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/59hkdgivm2riery/2017-12-21%2014.52.54.jpg?raw=1

Fixed:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ex88jlaiqdrau23/tips.jpg?raw=1

[JThomas]

You are getting her dialed in. :cheers:

[XfireZ51]

Dr. Greekenstein does good work.

[Nacho_ZR1]

Lookin gorgeous! And your car will be ready just in time for the Texas Mile Shootout happening Oct. 26-28 in Victoria TX =D>=D>=D>

https://www.theusmileracing.com/dates-and-schedules/

[EvanZR1]

No new pics but a few updates:

First off, the alternator was putting out low voltage, so that had to be replaced.
Next up, the new stainless FIC injectors that were put in by the previous owner were not performing properly. Car would not idle properly and wasn't getting enough fuel. Pete put in Accels for the primaries and a low mileage set of 94 injectors he had available for the secondaries and it's now running great. =D>
Still waiting on shocks to come back from being machined for DRM coilovers
Turns out the seats that were put in as part of interior restoration were 1990 seats. Problem is that 1990 seats used power recline adjusters, so Pete had to do a custom wiring job to get that to work. So I can now adjust recline and side bolsters, which is very important to me as most people recline the seat too far for proper driving position. :mrgreen:
Dash cluster has been pulled to be sent out for rebuild (tach was way off and LCD was dim).


So things are moving along well, and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[JThomas]

Wow! Keep at it, it will be running and turning great times in no time! :cheers:

[Flyman 27]

That engine is a beauty alright!

[EvanZR1]

Getting very close now. Pete got the AC fixed today, all that's left is an alignment. Planning on flying up next Wednesday to pick her up and drive back. Going to take back roads through southern Missouri and all the way through Arkansas, so should be a really nice drive this time of year.

[Demps]

Is it tuned yet? What kind of power?

Congrats on getting it done. Sorry that you had to but boy is it going to be great!

Ted

[EvanZR1]

Tuning is mostly done, but no dyno runs. Will do dyno after I get some break in miles on it and get it home. At that point I can send the results & chip back to Pete for any tweaking that's needed.

[Karl]

I would like to hear your car idle before you leave. Are you coming up here on the 10th or the 17th?

I have seen Pete's z but you have bigger cams than he does.

[EvanZR1]

Plan right now is to fly in around Noon on the 10th. I'm open to hanging out in the area if the local guys want to put together a meet/dinner for that afternoon/evening. I'm giving myself until Sunday to get home, so I don't have any rush to leave.

[-=Jeff=-]

Where are you staying?

[EvanZR1]

Pete is just north of O'Hare, but I don't have any specific area in mind. If you local Chicago guys want to meet up that afternoon/evening, let me know where and I'll find a hotel nearby. I have a bunch of Marriott points, so I'm sure I can find something.

[-=Jeff=-]

Yep.. been to Pete's many times.. My buddy and I are meeting at Rookies in Roselle Wed evening

[XfireZ51]

Yep.. been to Pete's many times.. My buddy and I are meeting at Rookies in Roselle Wed evening

I could meet up w u guys there too. What time?

[-=Jeff=-]

Dunno yet..

[EvanZR1]

Yep.. been to Pete's many times.. My buddy and I are meeting at Rookies in Roselle Wed evening

That looks easy enough to get to, I'd be up for meeting you guys there.

[Demps]

My lesson learned--ALL ON ME being in a hurry/meeting a schedule: radical engines should be turn-key from their magician mechanics. Taking them away before they are truly finished has the potential to yield an unfinished (read undesired) product...that costed you a lot of money.

Ted

[EvanZR1]

To be clear, the tune is done. My engine is almost an exact match for Pete's personal car (I'm one stage larger on cams), so he's had plenty of time to get baseline tuning for 391s worked out.

Any fine tuning will be exactly that, fine tuning. ;) Honestly, I'm not really even expecting to need it, but it can't hurt to throw it on the dyno with a wide band after break in and see what it looks like, and then tweak it if needed.

I've given Pete plenty of time to make sure everything was built/done at the timeline he was comfortable with, and while it's taken longer than I originally anticipated, I'm very happy with the progress reports he's given me over the course of the build.

[-=Jeff=-]

5:30pm Wednesday
Rookies in Roselle

[Karl]

5:30pm Wednesday
Rookies in Roselle

I will be at work until 8 and can't make it

[EvanZR1]

Finally got the car back to Dallas last weekend. Car drove great on the way back, and I'm happy with the 391 build. Sounds mean and pulls hard. Didn't have any time to do anything with it other than put it in the garage before I had to go out of town for work last week, and then Friday we loaded it on a buddies trailer and took her up to the Ultima Mile in Blytheville, AR. The car ran great and did a 152MPH in the 1/2 Mile and 176MPH in the full Mile. It was the oldest car there, but it definitely opened some eyes when the speeds posted.

Some other car times for reference:
Stock ZR1s general #s at various events: 1/2 Mile: low to mid 150s, 1 Mile mid 170s to low 180s
Stock ZR1 at same track in 2016: 148MPH in the 1/2 and 177MPH in the Mile
My previous 13 GS with blower, putting down 675RWHP at the same track in 2016: 155MPH in the 1/2 and 186MPH in the Mile.

I do need to get it on the dyno with a wideband so Pete can do a final cleanup on the tune. It's good, but still rich on the top end to be safe. We can probably get a little more power out of it by cleaning up the tune, but overall I'm very happy with it. Will try to get it on the dyno and tune cleaned up before next 1/2 Mile event in Dallas in November.

Home from Pete's:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bd8o8oelzf3yc4i/2018-10-12%2016.47.54.jpg?raw=1

Loaded on trailer to go to the Mile:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/46fkjlooo5dkf4p/2018-10-19%2013.19.42.jpg?raw=1

Staged for run:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mbfdt3ps8s51dew/2018-10-20%2012.37.18.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3n5yov6qtj0stb/2018-10-20%2012.37.35.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ckg56hb3q2unkp/2018-10-20%2012.37.41.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rolirfee43a2ycv/2018-10-20%2012.38.02.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gi53abn9lmh2xmu/2018-10-20%2012.38.43.jpg?raw=1

Startup at Pete's (https://www.dropbox.com/s/z7rm6zofcbaw9o5/2018-10-10%2016.33.10.mp4?raw=1)

1/2 Mile run:
https://youtu.be/9fZ0RjNkgkk

1 Mile run:
https://youtu.be/G6Va-Zh4kuU

[-=Jeff=-]

I assume no FX3 issues on the way home? Don’t forget to get he tail light wiring sorted then you have a completed car ready to enjoy

Great meeting you too

[gtcollins@maxnet.co.nz]

Cool videos

Glen

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[Karl]

Awesome times and a great sounding car. The power sure is there. If you want to get out of those euro taillights and go back to stock, I will take the lenses!

[EvanZR1]

FX3 was fine on the way home other than one error which cleared on car restart. It looks like the clip on the connector may be broken, so the one that was on there may be ok. I zip tied it together when I got home and haven't had any more issues.

Started looking at the taillights when I got home, and it looks like someone wired the center brake light into them for the brake side, which causes problems when trying to rewire to use the red for running lights and brake lights (as it causes the center brake to stay on with running lights). Will have to dig in deeper at some point to fix it, at this point it's not a high priority as I don't normally drive the car at night often.

[Pete]

My lesson learned--ALL ON ME being in a hurry/meeting a schedule: radical engines should be turn-key from their magician mechanics. Taking them away before they are truly finished has the potential to yield an unfinished (read undesired) product...that costed you a lot of money.

Ted

Ted, you are so very right.
We still have to do some fine tuning, driveability is tuned with no issues.

This 391 motor project took 3 months to complete.
Other repairs and issues took an extra 4 weeks diagnosing and waiting for parts.

Ted you and i both know builds like these used to take 1-2 years.
Evan was great to work with very patient.
Thanks

Pete

[EvanZR1]

Thanks Pete, I have to say again, I'm really, really happy with Pete and the way the car turned out. Not only did he do a great engine build, but we addressed a lot of other minor issues the car had. EVERYONE at the Mile event was blown away with how fast the car is, and that it was reliable enough to drive it home from Chicago to Dallas, and then a week later beat on it at the Mile. For anyone that's been thinking about doing a 391 build from Pete, DO IT! Just be patient and let Pete do it right, don't rush it.

[Pete]

Thanks Evan
Enjoy and be safe.

Pete



Thanks Pete, I have to say again, I'm really, really happy with Pete and the way the car turned out. Not only did he do a great engine build, but we addressed a lot of other minor issues the car had. EVERYONE at the Mile event was blown away with how fast the car is, and that it was reliable enough to drive it home from Chicago to Dallas, and then a week later beat on it at the Mile. For anyone that's been thinking about doing a 391 build from Pete, DO IT! Just be patient and let Pete do it right, don't rush it.

[EvanZR1]

So it's been a while since I posted on this, but figured I'd give an update. Was at a dyno day today, and got a couple of runs in. No wideband, so I still need to do another run somewhere with that so we can finalize the tune. As is, it's running very rich with conservative timing, but numbers were 494HP & 442TQ. Pete thinks there's probably another 20HP in it with proper tuning.

Here's a video of the pull:
https://youtu.be/qetbIsUYHR0

[tgonyaw]

Great sound and looks with numbers to back it up!
Thanks for posting.

[XfireZ51]

So it's been a while since I posted on this, but figured I'd give an update. Was at a dyno day today, and got a couple of runs in. No wideband, so I still need to do another run somewhere with that so we can finalize the tune. As is, it's running very rich with conservative timing, but numbers were 494HP & 442TQ. Pete thinks there's probably another 20HP in it with proper tuning.

Here's a video of the pull:
https://youtu.be/qetbIsUYHR0

Evan,

If u didn’t have a WB O2 on it, how do u know how rich it was running?

[EvanZR1]

One, because Pete tuned it to be rich (safe). Two, you could see it/smell it. When you've been around as many dyno runs as I have, it's pretty obvious. :D

[Regimof3]

I really want to do this.

Do they still pay good money for a kidney? Maybe half a liver?

[EvanZR1]

I really want to do this.

It's a great setup, I really love it. It's a perfect blend of streetable power, that sounds mean while being very drivable. I'd strongly encourage anyone that's considering an engine upgrade to do it.

[KFoster]

Nice


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[XfireZ51]

I really want to do this.

Do they still pay good money for a kidney? Maybe half a liver?

I saw ur motor in Pete’s garage. Its sitting there looking for ur engine bay.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Pete does a heck of a job. You'll love it.:dancing

[Karl]

Do you have a dyno sheet to post?

[Pete]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regimof3 View Post
I really want to do this.
Do they still pay good money for a kidney? Maybe half a liver?
[/QUOTE]



I saw ur motor in Pete’s garage. Its sitting there looking for ur engine bay.


Yeap :-D

Pete

[EvanZR1]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/65gigkexlnypitc/dyno%204-20-19.jpg?raw=1

[Karl]

Nice!

[tpepmeie]

Is that uncorrected, or corrected hp?
Typically these would say either "STD" or "SAE".

[EvanZR1]

I think it was STD. The sheet is in the car, which is in the shop getting the AC fixed

[XfireZ51]

Evan,

No AFR trace on these runs? The shop should be able to provide a file of the runs that can be viewed using DynoJets WinPep viewer.

[EvanZR1]

No A/F, and I wouldn’t expect a file out of these guys. I have to get one done with A/F for Pete to finish the tune, so I’ll use a shop I have more experience with for that, and then do a follow up after tuning at same shop.

[XfireZ51]

Don’t understand why its like pulling hen’s teeth with some of these people to get a digital file of ur runs sometimes. I do have a Zeitronix ZT-2 WB installed permanently in my car. I know Marc brings his own WB when tuning because u just don’t know what tailpipe the shop’s sniffer has been in and there’s reason to doubt their accuracy.

[indy91zr1]

Don’t understand why its like pulling hen’s teeth with some of these people to get a digital file of ur runs sometimes. I do have a Zeitronix ZT-2 WB installed permanently in my car. I know Marc brings his own WB when tuning because u just don’t know what tailpipe the shop’s sniffer has been in and there’s reason to doubt their accuracy.

I have been thinking of adding a wideband. Where exactly did you have the bung mounted? I would think you would want two widebands since there really isn't a merge of the exhaust for most unless xpipe or an hpipe setup.

[XfireZ51]

I have a separate bung on the side of the collector near where the NB is located.
There are kits that will take input from 2 WBs.

[indy91zr1]

I have a separate bung on the side of the collector near where the NB is located.
There are kits that will take input from 2 WBs.

Awesome thanks Dominic! Do you just have the one or did you go with a kit that brings 2 to 1? I am used to aem products so I will have to do some research on these.

[XfireZ51]

I have one Zeitronix ZT-2 w display.