Stuck!! No crank ! LF some input and help !

[5ABI VT]

**UPDATE SOLVED !!**


It was the clutch switch ! Snipped the wires and connected them together and she cranks beautifully. Thanks again to everyone who put up with me typing my thoughts over the last week and that chimed in. Very much appreciated this forum is awesome :cheers:



** Original post **

I guess it was only a matter of time after reading about no crank threads here and there on the forum ! First time it's happened to me.. Finishing moving.. Last thing was to get my ZR-1 home. Stopped for gas and now she won't fire up.


Car is a 1994 *

Security doesn't blink when the key is in so thinking not vats. But looks like the bypass is next on the list for one.

Clutch pedal.. I can't seem to see any photos on where to look.. Does the panel need to be removed to access the switch ? I have no tools on me but i do have someone to help push ! Will try that shortly.

Any input is appreciated !



**UPDATE** 08/15/16 11am

Again in a nutshell. Cranked and fired every single time over the years until this happened. My experience tells me if it was the starter it may crank sometimes .. I've personally never had one die completely but there's always a first time. I did just do the clutch switch bypass. 5 mins and done but still no start.

https://youtu.be/d_rI6IdEKsg




**UPDATE 08/15/16 2pm**

Thanks to all your guys help so far at least I am now able to fire the car up until I get it sorted out ! :cheers:

Harness under the ECM.


Purple wire



I added a 8awg quality wire I had laying as spare. Touching this to the battery positive terminal cranked the motor instantly.
Added a rubber cap and taped it and the wire later for extra protection. Easily hidden out of sight.


Now to figure out why the starter isn't getting power when I turn the key.. Hmm..

[We Gone]

Any chance you can give it a push and slip it in 2nd gear to get it going and home?

[5ABI VT]

Any chance you can give it a push and slip it in 2nd gear to get it going and home?



Managed to push start it I'm on the way ! Couldn't be more relieved just need to get it there and I can tear into it this week. Will search the threads for info sorry for asking yet again !!

[5ABI VT]

If it's push starting is clutch switch the likely culprit ? I did just pump the clutch pedal 10000x just a month ago

[secondchance]

Try starting once the car cools down. I had the same happen to me. As the starter age heat soak, at times, disables it. Rebuild or a new starter may be the solution.

[5ABI VT]

Try starting once the car cools down. I had the same happen to me. As the starter age heat soak, at times, disables it. Rebuild or a new starter may be the solution.

It's been a few hours while we finished moving .. No click at all still :neutral: I have my manuals somewhere but they're buried under various boxes. Hoping the clutch switch is accessible after dropping the kick panel and I'll cut and tie them together or jumper the switch. Hopefully that's the issue. If not tomorrow I'll pull the plenum and pull the starter out and check it out.

Appreciate the input !

[RussMcB]

If you need a semi-quick fix to prevent being stranded due to no-start see this thread:

http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24767

That will allow you to send 12v directly to the starter, bypassing everything that might be causing the problem.

I did the above and lived with it for a brief time until I could do the VATS bypass and relay mod, which fixed my issue.

[Kevin]

Pull driver’s side hush panel.
Locate striped purple wire that goes to clutch switch.
Look at switch and note the color of wire coming back up.(Yellow??)
If you found them—the jumper will go from the Yellow to the purple stripe. You should be able to jumper them right there without messing with that ##*!!$ clutch switch.
I used a 3 in #12 wire with terminals (from Radio Shack number 64-3133) on the end and unplugged the wires going to switch and plugged in the jumper wire.
Use a 12 ga wire at least as it does carry a heavy current load which is why the switch fails, it gets hot and the resistance across the points stops current flow.

[5ABI VT]

If you need a semi-quick fix to prevent being stranded due to no-start see this thread:

http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24767

That will allow you to send 12v directly to the starter, bypassing everything that might be causing the problem.

I did the above and lived with it for a brief time until I could do the VATS bypass and relay mod, which fixed my issue.

Thanks very much that is great :cheers: if I'm understanding correctly this adds a longer sure with a sort of 'T' fitting in between. If and when the starter isn't getting power I can connect a second wire to the 'T' and the other end straight to the battery ?

[5ABI VT]

Pull driver’s side hush panel.
Locate striped purple wire that goes to clutch switch.
Look at switch and note the color of wire coming back up.(Yellow??)
If you found them—the jumper will go from the Yellow to the purple stripe. You should be able to jumper them right there without messing with that ##*!!$ clutch switch.
I used a 3 in #12 wire with terminals (from Radio Shack number 64-3133) on the end and unplugged the wires going to switch and plugged in the jumper wire.
Use a 12 ga wire at least as it does carry a heavy current load which is why the switch fails, it gets hot and the resistance across the points stops current flow.

Really appreciate the explanation. First thing I will tackle in the morning !:cheers:

[Z51JEFF]

That switch is such a pain in the @$$ to get to. If mine ever goes I'll bypass it. I've done the relay mod and so far no issues.

[Racinfan83]

I did the relay mod as well and no issues since. Also make sure you have a good battery. I figure with the relay mod I took a lot of other things out of the equation so if it fails to start again I know to go digging for the starter... :o

[XfireZ51]

That switch is such a pain in the @$$ to get to. If mine ever goes I'll bypass it. I've done the relay mod and so far no issues.

I swapped clutch neutral safety switch on my 84. It is an absolute BEAR to replace. The seat MUST come out. The one on my ZR is bypassed which is relatively easy to do.

[Dynomite]

I did the relay mod as well and no issues since. Also make sure you have a good battery. I figure with the relay mod I took a lot of other things out of the equation so if it fails to start again I know to go digging for the starter... :o

I have installed the Relay and rebuilt the starter or new starter on ALL Zs and have never had a starting issue. I have never touched the clutch switch :p

Starter Relay, Wiring Harness, and Plugs Tricks (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564085)

[RussMcB]

<snip>... I figure with the relay mod I took a lot of other things out of the equation so if it fails to start again I know to go digging for the starter... :oI think (but could be mistaken), the relay mod does not bypass the potential problem areas (VATS, clutch switch, ignition switch), but rather does not require all of them to carry the heavy electrical load. The relay is still triggered by the same circuit (after it goes through all those things), but the other contact in the relay is supplying the starter with a more direct path of 12v.

In other words, if you have a (serious) VATS/clutch/ignition issue, you might still have a problem even with the relay mod.

[5ABI VT]

Got the clutch switch and connected the wires together. Still no start. No noise at all no clicking etc. I'll make a short video. I don't see any gauges dimming when turning to start. Thinking to check the ohmage on the key and just do the vats bypass for that while the kick panel is out.

[5ABI VT]

I'll add this to the main page too. Here's what I see.. This was after I tied the clutch switch wires together just now.

https://youtu.be/d_rI6IdEKsg

[RussMcB]

Thanks very much that is great :cheers: if I'm understanding correctly this adds a longer sure with a sort of 'T' fitting in between. If and when the starter isn't getting power I can connect a second wire to the 'T' and the other end straight to the battery ?Basically what you are doing is finding the wire that goes to the starter (the big purple wire), and giving it 12v straight from the battery. (make sure car is out of gear!)

Another benefit to this quick, temporary fix is, if the car starts with this method you confirm your starter motor isn't the problem.

[5ABI VT]

Basically what you are doing is finding the wire that goes to the starter (the big purple wire), and giving it 12v straight from the battery. (make sure car is out of gear!)

Another benefit to this quick, temporary fix is, if the car starts with this method you confirm your starter motor isn't the problem.


Next on the list and will try it shortly. I will need to have someone in the car turning the key I assume to get it to fire? Regardless like you said if the starter turns then I know it's not the issue ! Will report back shortly thanks !

[Kevin]

Basically what you are doing is finding the wire that goes to the starter (the big purple wire), and giving it 12v straight from the battery. (make sure car is out of gear!)

Another benefit to this quick, temporary fix is, if the car starts with this method you confirm your starter motor isn't the problem.

another benefit is you don't need to use the clutch to start the car

[Dynomite]

another benefit is you don't need to use the clutch to start the car
As long as you are not standing in front of or behind the car :p

[5ABI VT]

As long as you are not standing in front of or behind the car :p

Haha my first thoughts :-D

If I may ask .. Assuming the car cranks jumping the purple wire , what would be the reason for not cranking with the key ? Vats?

If it doesn't crank then I guess it's time to pull the plenum. Again forgive me for not searching (and I will shortly) but should I rebuild the starter or are there reliable or preferred replacements ?

I am regretting not cleaning the contacts etc when I had the plenum off last year. I was a little intimidated by the plenum and removing the secondaries at the time and decided not to dive in further and just pull the starter.

On the bright side I have new wires waiting to be put on .. Can't be certain on the age of the current ones although the car runs great.

[Dynomite]

The starter Solenoid is getting current directly from battery when jumping purple wire..... no current loss through switches and connectors. The Solenoid jumps faster with more pressure on contacts.

Actually the total resistance in circuit is reduced by jumping and I = V/R


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=90383)

[Kevin]

Haha my first thoughts :-D

If I may ask .. Assuming the car cranks jumping the purple wire , what would be the reason for not cranking with the key ? Vats?

If it doesn't crank then I guess it's time to pull the plenum. Again forgive me for not searching (and I will shortly) but should I rebuild the starter or are there reliable or preferred replacements ?

I am regretting not cleaning the contacts etc when I had the plenum off last year. I was a little intimidated by the plenum and removing the secondaries at the time and decided not to dive in further and just pull the starter.

On the bright side I have new wires waiting to be put on .. Can't be certain on the age of the current ones although the car runs great.

I can't say for sure. Mine only left me stranded when the car was driven in traffic, clutch in/out a bunch. My assumption is that the wire is too small for the clutch and the resistance changes with heat

[RussMcB]

I will need to have someone in the car turning the key I assume to get it to fire? No. You can turn the ignition key to the On position, (set emergency brake and put the car in neutral), then lift the hood and touch the purple wire jumper to the battery's positive terminal. The engine should start and run.

[5ABI VT]

I can't say for sure. Mine only left me stranded when the car was driven in traffic, clutch in/out a bunch. My assumption is that the wire is too small for the clutch and the resistance changes with heat

I was lucky as I was driving home on a main road it stumbled with the ac on and she off when I was doing like 5mph but I quickly sticking in gear and turned the key and it fired up. After a little wot the hesitation disappeared and she idled great all the way home.


** update!**

I added a quality copper power wire (8gaw I think) to the purple wire in the harness. Starter engages perfect every time. Fired right up. I added some wired taped everything up , capped it and curled it within the cruise control bracket so it's out of sight. I will attach pics so people can see if it helps :)

So now , clutch switch is bypassed. Starter cranks with straight power. Any ideas what it could be ? Vats ? I assumed vats wouldn't let it crank or cuts ignition or fuel ?

[5ABI VT]

Few pics .. Will add to the original post to help anyone if it might in the future who searches and comes across this thread. Thanks to all your guys help so far at least I am now able to fire the car up until I get it sorted out ! :cheers:

Harness under the ECM.


Purple wire



I added a 8awg quality wire I had laying as spare. Touching this to the battery positive terminal cranked the motor instantly.
Added a rubber cap and taped it and the wire later for extra protection. Easily hidden out of sight.


Now to figure out why the starter isn't getting power when I turn the key.. Hmm..

[RussMcB]

You sound exactly like me 18 months ago. :-)

After doing the quick, temporary fix, I did the VATS bypass and relay mod and haven't had to use my hidden jumper wire since then.

[5ABI VT]

You sound exactly like me 18 months ago. :-)

After doing the quick, temporary fix, I did the VATS bypass and relay mod and haven't had to use my hidden jumper wire since then.

Let's hope i can end up like you! I'm still wondering about what it is that went wrong all of a sudden. I'll be happy if it fires up but it would be nice to know exactly what caused the issue.

I'm still trying to understand what the relay mod does exactly. I believe it bypasses the vats and the clutch switch (optional) ? I was nearby the electronics store and checked my pellet and got 6$5 ohms. I grabbed a resistor and will bypass that part of the vats for now

[Dynomite]

The relay mod if you are talking the relay mod I described in a Link.......only requires current to close the main points of the relay after which the main points of the relay pass current from the battery directly to the Field coils of the Starter Solenoid. The magnetic field created within the Solenoid is then maximum with maximum force on the Solenoid points created. The Solenoid points then pass maximum current allowed from battery to Starter motor.

Reconditioning the starter Solenoid involves cleaning/replacing the Solenoid points......and cleaning the plunger itself.



Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=90383)

[5ABI VT]

The relay mod if you are talking the relay mod I described in a Link.......only requires current to close the main points of the relay after which the main points of the relay pass current from the battery directly to the Field coils of the Starter Solenoid. The magnetic field created within the Solenoid is then maximum with maximum force on the Solenoid points created. The Solenoid points then pass maximum current allowed from battery to Starter motor.

Reconditioning the starter Solenoid involves cleaning/replacing the Solenoid points......and cleaning the plunger itself.



Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=90383)


I believe I understand. Admittedly I am not very experienced with working with wiring diagrams and relays etc. takes me a little to fully comprehend everything in my mind I think :)

So that relay mod bypasses the vats and clutch switch etc and if the starter works it will fire ? Does that mean it's unnecessary to do the key pellet bypass (not even sure what that is called - I had it happen on my 4th gen fbodys and putting a resistor in the wiring allowed it to start) . Again I appreciate it ! :cheers:

[5ABI VT]

Just a small update. Had a little time and pulled the ignition wire from the column (will add a pic shortly). I matched my ohms reading on the pellet on the key to within .002 with a resistor and soldered it into the wiring and plugged it back in. Still no crank.

I dug up an old thread by mitsumark here post # 24 http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20927&page=3&highlight=vats

Going to try replacing this relay before moving on.

[Dynomite]

Just a small update. Had a little time and pulled the ignition wire from the column (will add a pic shortly). I matched my ohms reading on the pellet on the key to within .002 with a resistor and soldered it into the wiring and plugged it back in. Still no crank.

I dug up an old thread by mitsumark here post # 24 http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20927&page=3&highlight=vats

Going to try replacing this relay before moving on.

See Electrical Ground Connections and Installing Starter Relay (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564089)

Locate the 12 gauge purple wire (red 12 gauge wire in my case of the Early 1990 ZR-1) and
cut the wire such that the end leading to the starter Solenoid sticks our far enough that
it can be connected directly to the Relay. Solder a 4 inch 12 gauge wire extension to the 12 gauge
purple wire coming from the Clutch Switch making it long enough to reach the Relay being installed.
Install a 3/8 inch 12 gauge Female Connector on the wire leading to the starter Solenoid.
Install a 1/4 inch 12 gauge Female Connector on the wire coming from the Clutch Switch Installed
on the end of the 4 inch wire added as an extension.

The Hot wire is attached to the Junction Block with a 12 gauge 1/4 inch connector
(one of the 24 inch wires made up with a 3/8 inch 12 gauge female Connector) and
secured to the top of the Junction Block as shown with a 10 mm nut).
The other 24 inch wire made up with a 1/4 inch 12 gauge Female Connector is secured
with a bolt to the same location as the battery 12 gauge ground wire (bolted to the frame rail
just behind the INFL REST Sensor).
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/a1281ce9-a069-4258-9a15-d7e7ff915b43.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/6e2c0865-38e9-4eaf-a2e5-715881dea5f4.jpg

We now have four 12 gauge wires (two with 3/8 inch 12 gauge Female Connectors and two with 1/4 inch
12 gauge Female Connectors shown.

The 12 gauge wire with 3/8 inch 12 gauge Female Connector going to Starter Solenoid
connects to post #30 of the Relay. The other 12 gauge wire with 3/8 inch 12 gauge
Female Connector connects to Post #87 of the Relay (this is always HOT when the key is on).
The 12 gauge wire with 1/4 inch 12 gauge Female Connector coming from the Clutch Switch
connects to either of the two smaller connections on the Relay. The second 12 gauge wire
with 1/4 inch 12 gauge Female Connector (one of the 24 inch wires) which is connected to ground
connects to the other of the two smaller connections on the Relay.
Make sure the clear plastic hose section is secure on the middle post (#87a) of the relay as an insulator.
This post is not hot at any time if wired correctly.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/13146985-58c7-4ab7-ba3a-e3476efa0fcc.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/c9d697e8-dc36-4e71-a5f9-3529795dff5d.jpg

Tape the Relay and connectors secure with black electrical tape and tuck away down and under
(between large wire cluster and fire wall) under the ECM. The Main Junction Block is shown
located between the Battery and Fire Wall.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite7/5424da16-d060-4815-a64e-813641924f1c.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite7/3d7f2b71-c1fb-47d6-9975-38354f7d286b.jpg

[5ABI VT]

See Electrical Ground Connections and Installing Starter Relay (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564089)

Locate the 12 gauge purple wire (red 12 gauge wire in my case of the Early 1990 ZR-1) and
cut the wire such that the end leading to the starter Solenoid sticks our far enough that
it can be connected directly to the Relay. Solder a 4 inch 12 gauge wire extension to the 12 gauge
purple wire coming from the Clutch Switch making it long enough to reach the Relay being installed.
Install a 3/8 inch 12 gauge Female Connector on the wire leading to the starter Solenoid.
Install a 1/4 inch 12 gauge Female Connector on the wire coming from the Clutch Switch Installed
on the end of the 4 inch wire added as an extension.

The Hot wire is attached to the Junction Block with a 12 gauge 1/4 inch connector
(one of the 24 inch wires made up with a 3/8 inch 12 gauge female Connector) and
secured to the top of the Junction Block as shown with a 10 mm nut).
The other 24 inch wire made up with a 1/4 inch 12 gauge Female Connector is secured
with a bolt to the same location as the battery 12 gauge ground wire (bolted to the frame rail
just behind the INFL REST Sensor).
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite7/c9e46334-2dc5-4eed-80c2-d102daa8b2f5.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite7/0e3ba4c9-423a-470d-b543-00957aa9de03.jpg
We now have four 12 gauge wires (two with 3/8 inch 12 gauge Female Connectors and two with 1/4 inch
12 gauge Female Connectors shown.

The 12 gauge wire with 3/8 inch 12 gauge Female Connector going to Starter Solenoid
connects to post #30 of the Relay. The other 12 gauge wire with 3/8 inch 12 gauge
Female Connector connects to Post #87 of the Relay (this is always HOT when the key is on).
The 12 gauge wire with 1/4 inch 12 gauge Female Connector coming from the Clutch Switch
connects to either of the two smaller connections on the Relay. The second 12 gauge wire
with 1/4 inch 12 gauge Female Connector (one of the 24 inch wires) which is connected to ground
connects to the other of the two smaller connections on the Relay.
Make sure the clear plastic hose section is secure on the middle post (#87a) of the relay as an insulator.
This post is not hot at any time if wired correctly.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite7/75fd88d3-47de-435e-864a-c594f3d403d7.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite7/67881772-456a-4451-804e-448c4e6e807c.jpg
Tape the Relay and connectors secure with black electrical tape and tuck away down and under
(between large wire cluster and fire wall) under the ECM. The Main Junction Block is shown
located between the Battery and Fire Wall.


Took me a little to let it sink in :o Now I understand and very much appreciated !! I will do this mod asap !! :cheers:

[Dynomite]

Took me a little to let it sink in :o Now I understand and very much appreciated !! I will do this mod asap !! :cheers:

I have several links associated with the Relay Installation if you get confused. I get confused just trying to explain it.

If you can.......use a soldering iron and solder on all connectors except the connectors that slip on the Relay tabs. Also.....if you can....use heat shrink on all soldered connections and splices.

If you do not have a heat gun you can just use the end of soldering iron and rub the hot end up and down the heat shrink and it will shrink perfectly. Do not hold soldering iron hot end on the heat shrink in one spot but keep end of soldering iron moving.

When soldering the ends of a splice together, I solder each end of bare wire (about 3/8 inch) so each end takes full solder. Then I place each wire end side by side and hit it again with soldering iron (DO NOT FORGET TO PLACE HEAT SHRINK ON WIRE END FIRST AND FAR ENOUGH FROM SPLICE SO IT DOES NOT SHRINK WHEN YOU ARE SOLDERING SPLICE). After the soldered splice cools make sure there are no sharp ends of wire sticking out and then slide heat shrink down over splice and give it some heat.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/a1281ce9-a069-4258-9a15-d7e7ff915b43.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/6e2c0865-38e9-4eaf-a2e5-715881dea5f4.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/13146985-58c7-4ab7-ba3a-e3476efa0fcc.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/c9d697e8-dc36-4e71-a5f9-3529795dff5d.jpg

[5ABI VT]

I haven't had any time yet but tomorrow looks like I will have time early to get this taken care of. I tried today to get a replacement relay for the relay on the far left. I wanted to ask does the relay mod bypass that relay or will that relay need to be functioning also? Its a 6 pin and am not sure how to test it. I know in Mitsumarks thread on Vats he had the identical symptons and he found it was the relay that failed. Before I go ahead and do the relay mod Id sure like to know if the relay is at least functioning.

[5ABI VT]

I have several links associated with the Relay Installation if you get confused. I get confused just trying to explain it.

If you can.......use a soldering iron and solder on all connectors except the connectors that slip on the Relay tabs. Also.....if you can....use heat shrink on all soldered connections and splices.

If you do not have a heat gun you can just use the end of soldering iron and rub the hot end up and down the heat shrink and it will shrink perfectly. Do not hold soldering iron hot end on the heat shrink in one spot but keep end of soldering iron moving.

When soldering the ends of a splice together, I solder each end of bare wire (about 3/8 inch) so each end takes full solder. Then I place each wire end side by side and hit it again with soldering iron (DO NOT FORGET TO PLACE HEAT SHRINK ON WIRE END FIRST AND FAR ENOUGH FROM SPLICE SO IT DOES NOT SHRINK WHEN YOU ARE SOLDERING SPLICE). After the soldered splice cools make sure there are no sharp ends of wire sticking out and then slide heat shrink down over splice and give it some heat.


Is there a part number I can search to get the relay required for this mod? Local napa guys had no clue what to a search for a part number. They tried '654' but it turned up carburetor kits or something :neutral:

[5ABI VT]

Just an update.. I picked up a new starter relay. Still no change. With the hood open and key turned forward I do hear the pump prime and I do hear a slight tick I'm assuming is the starter solenoid. With the hood down and doors closed I can't hear it but trying to crank with both open I can.

Heading to pick up parts for the relay mod now but am still wondering what it may be. I added new grounds from the block to chassis as well as battery to chassis when I beefed up the alternator and power wiring (added power wire direct to banter from alternator as well). I should double check the grounds but with the clutch switch bypassed and key pellet bypassed with a resistor .. It's just making me wonder what actually is causing the issue.

[Dynomite]

Just an update.. I picked up a new starter relay. Still no change. With the hood open and key turned forward I do hear the pump prime and I do hear a slight tick I'm assuming is the starter solenoid. With the hood down and doors closed I can't hear it but trying to crank with both open I can.

Heading to pick up parts for the relay mod now but am still wondering what it may be. I added new grounds from the block to chassis as well as battery to chassis when I beefed up the alternator and power wiring (added power wire direct to banter from alternator as well). I should double check the grounds but with the clutch switch bypassed and key pellet bypassed with a resistor .. It's just making me wonder what actually is causing the issue.

If you are talking about the added relay for the Starter Solenoid.....this should work.
High Power 80 Amp Relay Single Pole, Double Throw (http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Power-80-Amp-Relay-Single-Pole-Double-Throw-/150306790794?hash=item22fefb9d8a)

[2ljd]

Is there a part number I can search to get the relay required for this mod? Local napa guys had no clue what to a search for a part number. They tried '654' but it turned up carburetor kits or something :neutral:

I need to do the same mod and ended up buying a pack of four relays (80amp). You're welcome to have one, but the shipping from Hawaii to you is probably more than the 4 relays...:cry:

[5ABI VT]

I need to do the same mod and ended up buying a pack of four relays (80amp). You're welcome to have one, but the shipping from Hawaii to you is probably more than the 4 relays...:cry:
Much appreciated but I think you are right about shipping costing a little much !!:-D

If you are talking about the added relay for the Starter Solenoid.....this should work.
High Power 80 Amp Relay Single Pole, Double Throw (http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Power-80-Amp-Relay-Single-Pole-Double-Throw-/150306790794?hash=item22fefb9d8a)

Great thank you ! I went to Partssource today and they only had 40amp relays. Looks like I'll need to order some which works because no one carries 3/8 female ends either. There is one store I maybe able to get it all from I will try and go tomorrow (where I got resistors from)

[BlackZR1]

Great thank you ! I went to Partssource today and they only had 40amp relays. Looks like I'll need to order some which works because no one carries 3/8 female ends either. There is one store I maybe able to get it all from I will try and go tomorrow (where I got resistors from)

When I did my relay mod I put a fuse in series with the relay contactor and did a little experiment. 5a fuse blew, 10a did not blow, so I put a 15a fuse in. So this means that you are probably safe with the 40a relay at least in a pinch until you can get the 80a. I have been running with the 15a fuse and a Hella 50a relay for a few months.

[5ABI VT]

When I did my relay mod I put a fuse in series with the relay contactor and did a little experiment. 5a fuse blew, 10a did not blow, so I put a 15a fuse in. So this means that you are probably safe with the 40a relay at least in a pinch until you can get the 80a. I have been running with the 15a fuse and a Hella 50a relay for a few months.

Good to know thank you for the input ! I can at least get started soldering some wires and use this one in the meantime.

I read Marc's website about narrowing down the no start. I went into the car with my multimeter and just checked one of the relays which I believe to be the starter relay (has both thick purple and yellow wires going to it)

Key not in. No power to yellow. Key all the way forward (crank) and I see 12 volts on my multi meter. The purple however .. Is getting no power. Again.. No expert with nearly no experience with relays but does this mean it's narrowed down to the trigger wire on the relay? I'll have to dig my service manuals up and figure out where the wires come from but they are yellow and a yellow with a black stripe . I took a photo and marked them. Based on the relay diagram when energiZed the yellow (30) should connect to the purple(87) and voltage but I am getting none.

[WVZR-1]

I would think that START ENABLE RELAY needs to be treated differently depending upon the year that has the NO CRANK - the CRANK circuit I believe is only "similar" in operation but wired very differently in the later years. OP yours is I believe a later '94 but I don't ever see you mention it.

[5ABI VT]

I would think that START ENABLE RELAY needs to be treated differently depending upon the year that has the NO CRANK - the CRANK circuit I believe is only "similar" in operation but wired very differently in the later years. OP yours is I believe a later '94 but I don't ever see you mention it.

I'll update the original thread it is a 94. Sometimes I think all years are the same but you're right .. Over the last few days I've read about changes from 90 and vats changes in 93+ and the starter relay as well. I guess I'm just thinking out loud but hopefully I'll be able to post up a definite solution .

[Dynomite]

I would think that START ENABLE RELAY needs to be treated differently depending upon the year that has the NO CRANK - the CRANK circuit I believe is only "similar" in operation but wired very differently in the later years. OP yours is I believe a later '94 but I don't ever see you mention it.

You are correct there Dave....I did NOT install the Clutch Bypass Relay (the Relay that sends direct current from the Battery to the Starter Motor) on my 95'......I just restored/installed a new starter among other things :p

It is obvious from this first photo that this is a 94' or 95' from the ASR (under the red milk shake) and single Throttle Cable among other things ;)

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb463/Emm3Speed/5abi%20VT/FDD65FFC-F6CC-448B-95B5-D01D78408953_zpsyo5mscci.jpeg

It also appears there exists an Oil Catch Can from the plumbing related to the PCV valves.
On the 95' I installed my oil catch can under the Drivers Side Head Light as normally I would install the Oil Catch Can on 90' or 91' where the ASR is shown above on this 94'-95'.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite17/7cf29450-2dcc-422a-a473-5f05bca4234a.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite17/ba5010c3-1fa7-4e37-b571-3e4229d3b12c.jpg

[WVZR-1]

You are correct there Dave....I did NOT install the Clutch Bypass Relay (the Relay that sends direct current from the Battery to the Starter Motor) on my 95'......I just restored/installed a new starter among other things :p

It is obvious from this first photo that this is a 94' or 95' from the ASR (under the red milk shake) and single Throttle Cable among other things ;)


Not really '92+ has ASR so... BUT '93+ has the somewhat different STARTER ENABLE I believe.

[5ABI VT]

Last night I looked again and i see that the clutch switch is wired with 2 thin wires vs what some threads and others posted about finding thicker wires. I believe this is what was changed to remove the current going through the switch in 93+ years.

I'm busy with the kids all day but hoping to get time to get a relay and I'll be free tonight to wire up the relay.. I hope ! Hopefully I can figure out which box I have my service manuals in and I can try and understand the wiring diagram better in hopes to at least pinpoint what was at fault in my situation.

[Mystic ZR-1]

There's your problem in the top picture...
The milkshake appears to be vanilla, the schematic in the FSM clearly
calls out for chocolate... 😄

[5ABI VT]

There's your problem in the top picture...
The milkshake appears to be vanilla, the schematic in the FSM clearly
calls out for chocolate... 😄

Lol! Been so exhausted the last several days/week moving ..I felt I deserved an iced cappuccino from Tim Hortons :-D

Well good news is I went to the electronics store .. They had everything but 60/80amp relays. I picked up connectors 1/4" and 3/8", ring terminals , new soldering iron (long overdue I've been using a torch but don't want to be using that near the car or other wires), a fuse wire (30a fuse rated for 40) and some other stuff. I just hope I get time tonight to get it done.

[XfireZ51]

5AB,

I like the idea of a backup for the starting circuit. Having said that, I would have had the plenum off and the starter out w new contacts installed them button everything up by now. At the end of the day,'u should still do the "rebuild" on the starter anyway. My $.02.

[5ABI VT]

5AB,

I like the idea of a backup for the starting circuit. Having said that, I would have had the plenum off and the starter out w new contacts installed them button everything up by now. At the end of the day,'u should still do the "rebuild" on the starter anyway. My $.02.

I agree with you 100%. I've been a little strapped for time during the move and all but if it wasn't for that I liked would've had it apart already. What actually stopped me from doing that however is when I jumpered to the battery direct and it cranked like it was new. i could very well be wrong In dismissing the starter after that but it was the reason I initially assumed the starter was fine. Also I have never had a non crank since the day I picked up the car and in my experience I have witnessed starters do this once in a while before needing replacement. I do have new wires to put on so hopefully it's fixed and I'll go in and clean up the starter with whatever I can do while im in there :)


It's 1130 now.. Heading home putting kids to bed. Getting a coffee and time to hit the garage.. Here's the plan based on dynomites write up ..

[5ABI VT]

Maybe the final update ...

PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!!!!!!

Ok so before I even began the relay mod.. Since yesterday I had been wondering how the purple wire end coming from the clutch switch would trigger the relay to put power through from battery to solenoid. Why? Because I was testing it with the volt meter and when key forward I was getting nothing from the starter relay at the kick panel. I was confused by this and forgive me for asking so many questions.. Long story short I pulled the manuals out from the boxes in the shed and found the diagram. I had a connector that didn't have the same color wires as the diagram and I was really confused. I looked again underneath and was convinced at what I thought was the clutch switch. After googling the switch I found an eBay listing where it mentioned it was for all years of the c4. It was nothing like what I thought was the clutch switch :/

So in a beautifully edited photo by me ....:o and yes I believe most of you are aware what the clutch switch is !



I tested the switch plug with my multimeter and no change with the clutch depressed. I cut the wires, tied them together .. Turned the key and she cranks. Thanks to everyone for chiming in and hopefully this may help at least one person in the future. I figured since it was a button that was depressed by the clutch pedal that it was the switch. Clearly I was wrong. The actual clutch switch is higher up and the wires are sheathed in black so the colors were also not visible to me.

On the bright side I feel much better, I bypassed the key resistor and the clutch switch and have an emergency wire still above the battery tucked away and I have some more experience with a multimeter to boot !
:cheers:

[Dynomite]

So in a beautifully edited photo by me ....:o and yes I believe most of you are aware what the clutch switch is !

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb463/Emm3Speed/5abi%20VT/16B60F76-1B1A-4158-8EFC-34641B8B06B6_zpsjmhoeguj.png (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/Emm3Speed/media/5abi%20VT/16B60F76-1B1A-4158-8EFC-34641B8B06B6_zpsjmhoeguj.png.html)



On the bright side I feel much better, I bypassed the key resistor and the clutch switch and have an emergency wire still above the battery tucked away and I have some more experience with a multimeter to boot !

:cheers:



That IS a beautifully edited photo :handshak:



And.......this is a 94' ? Prolly note that this is a 94' in above post :handshak:

[5ABI VT]

That IS a beautifully edited photo :handshak:



And.......this is a 94' ? Prolly note that this is a 94' in above post :handshak:

I did make my friend stick his head under there and take a look.. He saw the white switch.. Whatever it is and thought it was it too lol. Anyone know what that other switch is for ? I have a relay all soldered and ready to add if need be. Now to pull the plenum to do the wires and coils and I'll clean up the starter too while in there. Before I ask I will search on possible parts to rebuild it or get it as new as possible when I do take it apart. :):cheers:

[Dynomite]

I did make my friend stick his head under there and take a look.. He saw the white switch.. Whatever it is and thought it was it too lol. Anyone know what that other switch is for ? I have a relay all soldered and ready to add if need be. Now to pull the plenum to do the wires and coils and I'll clean up the starter too while in there. Before I ask I will search on possible parts to rebuild it or get it as new as possible when I do take it apart. :):cheers:

Marc Haibeck describes the electrical schematics and further identifies that "in 93' GM modified the starting circuit which reduces the load on the clutch switch from 30 amps to .2 amp".

See Starting Issues by Marc Haibeck (http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/articles/Diagnosing%20Starter%20Probems.pdf)

But you are saying that on your 94' the Clutch Switch does not close so GM must have put in a smaller capacity clutch switch given there is only .2 amp on that circuit or Could it be a mechanical issue with the Clutch movement not closing the Clutch Switch??. I did not install the Relay in my 95' since it appeared GM solved the Clutch Switch issue???


Convince your friend to remove the Clutch Switch so you can check it out since you no longer need it :D