Prices and Valuation

[spork2367]

After this topic has come up in several of the for sale threads, I wanted to start a thread devoted to the topic. All opinions are welcome, lets try to keep the animosity and personal feelings out of the thread.

To start off, the fact remains that there likely isn't a first owner out there who will live long enough to even see a 75% return on their investment. With the number of low mileage cars for sale right now, the reality seems to be hitting many second and third owners that they may not see their original investments back either. I can't speak for all those selling their cars, but for the ones staying in the Corvette market, they seem to be buying lightly used C5s and C6s. Likely due to the relatively low costs and cheap and plentiful replacement part and service costs. I know there are lots of comparisons to BMWs, Ferraris, etc. of the same vintage and how astronomical some of their maintenance costs are as a justification to how cost effective ZR1s are, but the fact remains that these are Corvettes, not Ferraris or BMWs. Compared to other Corvettes (C3s, base C4s, C5s, and C6s) the costs of maintaining a ZR1 are relative high.

The era in which these cars were built is a slim market when it comes to collectability regardless. With Porsche 911s and supercars being the exception. Even some earlier cars like the Ferrari 308s have only recently come into the realm of collectability, doubling in price.

The C4 is one of the least liked and least iconic Corvette body styles. While the ZR1 is FAR better looking than the base C4, the average person wouldn't notice the difference. On top of that, the majority of ZR1s are the same damn color, which doesn't help. Even the nicest big block C3s are struggling to break the high 40k mark (L88s being the exception). C5s, C6s, and C7s will likely never be collectible. By the time they are old enough, the electronics will be incredibly fragile and obsolete. My father has a 2004 Lemans Commemorative Edition with 4000 miles on it. He has already accepted that it's just a really nice low mileage driver. The ZR1 not only suffers from the same issue of being electronically complex, but their were even fewer parts made.

Parts are a bit difficult to find, and often expensive. This is compared to the overwhelming majority of other Corvettes. Look at the costs for ECUs and DIS modules recently. Someone could easily buy a car with less than 10k miles and have to immediately drop 2-3k into it to make it reliable with injectors, fuel pumps, coils, vacuum hoses/actuators...etc.

Someone noted in the other thread that Hagerty had ZR1s trending up. That was incorrect. Below are some graphs that pretty much spell out where the ZR1 is and where it is headed as far as valuation is concerned.

The first is just the 3 year trend.

The second is the 10 year trend.

The third is the 10 year with the DJIA and NASDAQ overlayed. The dotted line is the DJIA the solid line is the NASDAQ.



This trending pretty much shows that the car hasn't really appreciated at all in the last 10 years. You can see that it's lost value compared to the market index.

Does that change how I feel about the car? Nope. 3 years ago or so I bought a 1990 ZR1 on a salvage title from a Corvette wrecking yard. I've bought all the parts to fix it, acquired the original wheels from the owner (which he graciously gave me), and stocked up on a few spare parts. When I'm done fixing it, not counting my labor, the car will be worth approximately 3-4k less than what I'll have invested in it. Why did I do it? Because I love the car and that's what I could afford at the time. At this point, the car is worth more in parts than it is as a complete car.

In my opinion, this car will never appreciate beyond what it gains due to inflation. Parts availability, mechanics willing to work on them, electronics, etc. will scare off most buyers and I don't think the market will ever really get started. A lot of cars from that era will suffer the same fate. :cheers: to the people who hold onto them and keep them running despite their costs.

[gbrtng]

The C4 is one of the least liked and least iconic Corvette body styles.

Your opinion, not mine ...

[Kevin]

The zr-1 isn't that electronically complex, no more so then any other modern car. And while I may not be the best wrench around, let's face it...I'm terrible, it's fairly easy to work on compared to any other c4. Ever try and change the plugs or wires on an l98? I think I still I have scars from that. With rare exception no modern production car is going up in value the way mid years did.

[A26B]

I see 3 graphs but no legend to identify what each line represents on each individual graph, except for the 3rd graph which is identified in the body of the discussion

[Vette73]

As far as the ZR1 being the nicest looking C-4 I definately agree...

As far as the C4 being the least desirable generation, I'm sorry to say I agree also..If you look at all the older generation Corvettes they all cost a pretty penny for nice examples...Basically because in the muscle car era you had a choice of a lot of different engines...

Besides the Z there are no C4s going for any money..Some say the Grand sport C4 brings in money.....I have not checked but I would not even think about buying a grand sport over a Z........

When I bought my Z I knew very little of its design......I did learn fast though with the help of the registry members and have benefited....

One of the things I was suprised about is the lack of aftermarket mods for it.....No superchargers available no buying better flowing heads to slap on either..

I mean yes you can port the heads and port the plenum and I/Hs (which I did the latter two).....Marc's 510 package looks like a decent deal but you figure you would want an exhaust system and a hurst shifter installed, so realistically the bill would be around 11,500.....Some of the members said it best--The hell with the pricing just drive the hell out of it.....

[Z51JEFF]

One thing I find odd. I know the the opinion of the average know nothing could care less about C4s in general but why does GM keep building new Corvettes with C4 styling ques? The interior,no question there and now the GS. I could care less about what anybody thinks about my car,when I bought it the market was in decline but still laid $30,000 for it in 2007. Do I regret it,not one bit,I didn't want a C5,almost bought a new C6 but I bought a ZR-1 because nothing else would fill the void. Going on 9 years and still get a rush everytime I open the garage to see if it's still in there which happens to be every morning when I get home from work. I could give a ratsass about value,when I need a part I will find it and if the cars broke it will sit until I find it.

[spork2367]

Your opinion, not mine ...

Most people's opinions. In every conversation I've ever had in person or seen online the majority agrees the order of best body style is C2, C1, C3 (I disagree here, but I'm the minority), C6/C7 toss up, C5, C4.

The zr-1 isn't that electronically complex, no more so then any other modern car. And while I may not be the best wrench around, let's face it...I'm terrible, it's fairly easy to work on compared to any other c4. Ever try and change the plugs or wires on an l98? I think I still I have scars from that. With rare exception no modern production car is going up in value the way mid years did.

You go from saying it isn't electronically complex compared to a modern car then compare changing plugs on an L98...

No, it's not more complex in it's systems than a modern car. But we aren't comparing it modern cars. On top of that, I can take my modern car to a dealership where they can plug it into a 10k dollar computer that does 98% of the electrical system diagnostics. That isn't the case with these cars. I also don't believe any current domestic offerings will ever have any real collectability. The ZR1 is complex compared to it's Corvette brethren of the same time period and is arguably even more complex than a C5. Changing plugs is a pain in the *** on most C4s, that's irrelevant. It scares most home mechanics and shops simply because it's relatively unknown.

No, most cars of it's generation are not really going up in value. Like I said in my first post. Nice sorted low mileage cars are struggling to break the low 20k mark.

I see 3 graphs but no legend to identify what each line represents on each individual graph, except for the 3rd graph which is identified in the body of the discussion

The different levels are condition, and those aren't terrifically accurate. The solid line seems to be the most accurate representation of current "very good to excellent" cars.

As far as the ZR1 being the nicest looking C-4 I definately agree...

As far as the C4 being the least desirable generation, I'm sorry to say I agree also..If you look at all the older generation Corvettes they all cost a pretty penny for nice examples...Basically because in the muscle car era you had a choice of a lot of different engines...

Besides the Z there are no C4s going for any money..Some say the Grand sport C4 brings in money.....I have not checked but I would not even think about buying a grand sport over a Z........

When I bought my Z I knew very little of its design......I did learn fast though with the help of the registry members and have benefited....

One of the things I was suprised about is the lack of aftermarket mods for it.....No superchargers available no buying better flowing heads to slap on either..

I mean yes you can port the heads and port the plenum and I/Hs (which I did the latter two).....Marc's 510 package looks like a decent deal but you figure you would want an exhaust system and a hurst shifter installed, so realistically the bill would be around 11,500.....Some of the members said it best--The hell with the pricing just drive the hell out of it.....

Truth.

One thing I find odd. I know the the opinion of the average know nothing could care less about C4s in general but why does GM keep building new Corvettes with C4 styling ques? The interior,no question there and now the GS. I could care less about what anybody thinks about my car,when I bought it the market was in decline but still laid $30,000 for it in 2007. Do I regret it,not one bit,I didn't want a C5,almost bought a new C6 but I bought a ZR-1 because nothing else would fill the void. Going on 9 years and still get a rush everytime I open the garage to see if it's still in there which happens to be every morning when I get home from work. I could give a ratsass about value,when I need a part I will find it and if the cars broke it will sit until I find it.

And that's the reason I own a ZR1, but doesn't really say anything about the market value of the car.

[Z51JEFF]

I've had 4 Corvettes over the years,bought an 84 in 1987 and I've followed the ZR-1 from the earliest days back to late 87 early 88. The speculation on the car was rampant like nothing Corvette related today,not even the Mid Engine Zora floating around today. This was when horsepower was on an incline,the thought of 375 HP was unheard of in the U.S. so this kind of power was insane. I've said it from day one and I'll say it again, one of these days the popularity of these cars going to take off then what?One thing I'll be glad to see,people stop bitchin about prices in the toilet and people asking when the markets ever going to turn around for these cars. Personally,I like the idea of driving my car from time to time,if the market goes through the roof that might be able to do that. I can see one day and not too long from now that it will be worth the money I've got into it but that doesn't really matter,my cars not for sale. Got a question for the OP,you posted this basically looking for an argument but specifically not asking for anything negative in the responses from the old timers,what's up with that? What's an old timer,those of us that have been doing the ZR-1 thing for awhile.

[spork2367]

I've had 4 Corvettes over the years,bought an 84 in 1987 and I've followed the ZR-1 from the earliest days back to late 87 early 88. The speculation on the car was rampant like nothing Corvette related today,not even the Mid Engine Zora floating around today. This was when horsepower was on an incline,the thought of 375 HP was unheard of in the U.S. so this kind of power was insane. I've said it from day one and I'll say it again, one of these days the popularity of these cars going to take off then what?One thing I'll be glad to see,people stop bitchin about prices in the toilet and people asking when the markets ever going to turn around for these cars. Personally,I like the idea of driving my car from time to time,if the market goes through the roof that might be able to do that. I can see one day and not too long from now that it will be worth the money I've got into it but that doesn't really matter,my cars not for sale. Got a question for the OP,you posted this basically looking for an argument but specifically not asking for anything negative in the responses from the old timers,what's up with that? What's an old timer,those of us that have been doing the ZR-1 thing for awhile.

I'm looking for a discussion, not really an argument. Nothing in your post indicated what is leading you to believe these are going to take off. They aren't even creeping up, they are dropping in value. And if the market or owner base as a whole agreed with you, there likely wouldn't be so many low mileage cars for sale in the 20-25k range )and not selling).

These cars have been amazing 375-405 HP marvels since the day they came out. If it hasn't increased the value yet, it may not.

[BigJohn]

Looking past all the GM fluff; my C4's still handle better than my newer Corvettes!

[spork2367]

Looking past all the GM fluff; my C4's still handle better than my newer Corvettes!

Best chassis "bang for buck" out there bar none. Arguably on par with a C5 in stock form. Easily better than a C5 with some reasonably priced parts and modifications.

[8cam]

The C4 is the bastard of the Corvette line and while the ZR-1 may be Jon Snow, it's still the bastard. Not to the folks here, but to the rest of the Corvette world, yeah pretty much. And I'm ok with that because I absolutely love the C4 style, clean almost European lines, and the LT5 is awesome. I do think the value will go up, but probably won't hit a rocket ride and probably not for a few years yet.

If I were to sell my car right now and I wanted it to really sell (not sit on the market forever), I'd probably price it at 17k and might have to take less. That's just reality. And that's for a sorted, reliable, every day driver ZR-1 that still looks good. Not ideal, but that's what 99% of cars do. Hitting one that jumps in value is rare - I've got one of them, but I've also had 40+ other cars that didn't.

[Vette73]

Interesting question would be if they do shoot up in value where would they be?

An average price for a good horsepower C3 I would say varies from 20-30K....Lets forget about the L-88 and the tri powers....

Average new price of a C3 way back I think was in the range of 5-6K......

So it's safe to say you can get maybe 3-5 times back your initial investment if you bought it new......

My 91 Z stickered at 65K.........Do I really really think twenty or so years from now my car will follow the same trend? No way....

I think what the previous posts were getting at is the fact that if you are maybe the fourth or fifth owner of the Z your investment should stay where it's at if taken care of, or maybe even go up slightly....

[Paul Workman]

First: I don't give a ratz azz about resale value; I'll keep it "forever".

Second: the tide of negative perception is formed by exaggeration of some issues, and the fatuous blather of those ignorant (and just plain jealous) "experts", may(?) affect the resale value. But, the truth of its performance and its iconic contribution to (Corvette) and its uniqueness is NOT diminished. (Ask anyone that gets behind the wheel, or has done some simple modifications.)

And, something else:

I've noticed that several credit agencies no longer will finance an "older" car (cars older than 7 years). There are exceptions, but I have to wonder just how much this affects the size of the market. Not everyone that wants a ZR-1 can plunk down $30 to 50k for what a nice Z might be worth. They might be able to do a second mortgage or home improvement loan (or whatever) as a bridge loan. But, the economy has put a great deal of downward pressure on discretionary spending, for sure!! :-x:nono:

I summarize it this way...

(My) Pros:


Uniqueness: The only DOHC corvette, complete w/ appropriate body accommodations and other appointments and limited numbers made!

Performance: No slouch even by today's standards, and with passive modifications can still "elbow its way to a place at the bar" with contemporary cars. "Corners like it is on rails"

Classic beauty: Subjective (granted), but it gets many unsolicited 'props' from the public; whether at a gas station or char show or supermarket. "Is that new?"

Support: This forum (and others like it), the ZR-1 Net Registry members, the specialist vendors catering to the "Z", e.g., (and I hesitate to say because I can't mention them all, but...) Jerry's Gaskets, Haibeck Automotive Technology, Corey Henderson, SGC, Dempsey Anderson, Pete Polatsidis, AES, Dominic Sorresso, Bob Gillig, Jim Voter, Robert DeMarco, Brett Henderson, Mark Horner, WVZR-1, Cliff (aka Dynomite)...are a few that come to my humble mind.

Reliability: "Bulletproof" IF well sorted out and maintained.

DOHC: It is controversial, even among Corvette enthusiasts. However, its advantages - even among other GM products - are unmistakable and is ever more embraced by more of the automotive industry for its overall performance advantages.


some Cons (I admit) are:


Local dealerships and independent shops (in general) are NOT a reliable source of repair.

Parts are pretty much limited to other owners and a few specialists (e.g., Jerry's Gaskets). And, the cost for unique parts can be high.

Some cars on the market suffer from neglect and lack of proper maintenance. This results in many new owners (especially) inheriting problems from the previous owner(s) for which they my not be equipped or yet skilled to deal with.

These cars are getting old. Although most of the stuff that is failing is relatively easy to replace, the list can be comprehensive and daunting - especially to new owners.

The technology is dated, pretty much, especially the diagnostics, suspension, etc. (But, on the other hand, some would say the new cars are unnecessarily appointed with a lot of "gee-wiz" stuff - more appropriate for a Cadillac than a true performance car.)

Cost for "hot-rodding" performance upgrades: No question... The advantages of current production parts and after market parts of mass-production (motor) makes the same mod daunting to many (most?) would be Corvette buyers.

Lack of lending institutions(?): May or may not be an issue with some. But, it seems to be a trend among those lenders I'm familiar with. What say U?


So, as I see it, there is a rift between market pricing and the car's true worth in all things not related to price. IMO, they ARE steal !!

[edram454]

The C4 is the bastard of the Corvette line and while the ZR-1 may be Jon Snow, it's still the bastard. Not to the folks here, but to the rest of the Corvette world, yeah pretty much. And I'm ok with that because I absolutely love the C4 style, clean almost European lines, and the LT5 is awesome. I do think the value will go up, but probably won't hit a rocket ride and probably not for a few years yet.

If I were to sell my car right now and I wanted it to really sell (not sit on the market forever), I'd probably price it at 17k and might have to take less. That's just reality. And that's for a sorted, reliable, every day driver ZR-1 that still looks good. Not ideal, but that's what 99% of cars do. Hitting one that jumps in value is rare - I've got one of them, but I've also had 40+ other cars that didn't.


I have to agree with you 8cam. I have had 7 Corvettes and I have owned c3's,c4 and c5. Generally the c2 is considered the best looking, then the c3, c5, etc.. the c4 was a huge change in styling geared toward aerodynamics and functionality. When I was younger I found them to be a bit boring and the least appealing. When I drove one it was far better than any c3 and handled better then my c5 also. I drove in a friends c2 and it felt like a dump truck with thin tires and lousy suspension. I have another friend who has a c1, c2 c6 and he routinely says his c1 rides just like a dump truck.

Over time I have come to appreciate the style of the c4 and why it has to look this way. It is the first generation that put the corvette on the map world wide with a base model car reaching speeds of 150mph because of body style refinements and higher technology of the engine systems. When the Zr-1 came out its wider rear quarters along with the huge tires gave it just right look and is way more appealing than regular c4 cars. I personally feel that it is a tight little aerodynamic hotrod that not only is relevant with todays modern performance but takes you back in time as a 26 year old classic. It does definitely have an aggressive look and the zr-1 moniker demands respect in any generation. It is the best Corvette I have owned when taking into account rarity, looks, innovation and performance and exclusivity which is why I am lucky to see another zr1 at any gathering. I felt like I had a very nice c5 but in a sea of c5 cookie cutter cars, my beautiful black on black supercharged etc.. just did not attract any attention.

Look at the auctions and you will see 150k cars less than 10 years ago selling for 20k. Only lucky dudes who bought l88's and had so much money that they can just sit for 45 years or very astute collector car dealers who find them relatively cheap and resell for millions are the only ones making a living off these cars. I wish I would have kept my fully restored big block c3 71 show winning corvette but I sold it for 16k. I could have got 36k today for that same car that I sold in 1998. Enjoy your zr1 and dont speculate about prices. Life is short and over before you know it. enjoy it.

ed ramos #3028 :)

[Ereeves]

Not going to comment on the valuation side of things but I can tell you that all the track miles I have in my old C5Z and the few back road miles in my C4Z that the C5Z out handles it bar none. And my newer C6ZR1 out handles it and the C5Z. The C4 did not pull close to or way over 1.0g in stock form on the skid pad. And before someone says it I do not consider .90 - .92 as being close. A set of tires will not do it. Plus the light weight of the C5Z made it easier to acheive those numbers. My C4Z does not feel light and nimble like that. Still love my car for what it is and what it was.

[spork2367]

If I were to sell my car right now and I wanted it to really sell (not sit on the market forever), I'd probably price it at 17k and might have to take less. That's just reality. And that's for a sorted, reliable, every day driver ZR-1 that still looks good. Not ideal, but that's what 99% of cars do. Hitting one that jumps in value is rare - I've got one of them, but I've also had 40+ other cars that didn't.

This is pretty much where they are at right now. And I don't see them getting consistently over 25k for the next 5 years. One just sold at Barrett Jackson last weekend for 22k. If that's all they can get when the auction mentality sets in, it means that 17k is a pretty realistic private party price.

Interesting question would be if they do shoot up in value where would they be?

An average price for a good horsepower C3 I would say varies from 20-30K....Lets forget about the L-88 and the tri powers....

Average new price of a C3 way back I think was in the range of 5-6K......

So it's safe to say you can get maybe 3-5 times back your initial investment if you bought it new......

My 91 Z stickered at 65K.........Do I really really think twenty or so years from now my car will follow the same trend? No way....

I think what the previous posts were getting at is the fact that if you are maybe the fourth or fifth owner of the Z your investment should stay where it's at if taken care of, or maybe even go up slightly....

I don't think they'll ever follow even C3 trends as far as pricing goes. The thing about a C3 and previous generations is that you can get damn near every part, if not original, then reproduction. I think most third owners will be hard pressed to see any real return. Fourth owners might be the first to see real appreciation.

First: I don't give a ratz azz about resale value; I'll keep it "forever".

Second: the tide of negative perception is formed by exaggeration of some issues, and the fatuous blather of those ignorant (and just plain jealous) "experts", may(?) affect the resale value. But, the truth of its performance and its iconic contribution to (Corvette) and its uniqueness is NOT diminished. (Ask anyone that gets behind the wheel, or has done some simple modifications.)

I don't really hear a ton of negative about the cars. The things I do hear are pretty realistic compared to most other Corvettes. Those things being that lots of mechanics are going to be scared or ill prepared to work on the cars, and that parts can be hard to find and expensive. Both of those things really are true.

And, something else:

I've noticed that several credit agencies no longer will finance an "older" car (cars older than 7 years). There are exceptions, but I have to wonder just how much this affects the size of the market. Not everyone that wants a ZR-1 can plunk down $30 to 50k for what a nice Z might be worth. They might be able to do a second mortgage or home improvement loan (or whatever) as a bridge loan. But, the economy has put a great deal of downward pressure on discretionary spending, for sure!! :-x:nono:

There are plenty of places that finance just classic cars so long as you don't have sh*t credit. But in this day and age that applies to any borrowing. Regardless, it hasn't stopped people from investing in 6 figure mopars...

I summarize it this way...

(My) Pros:


Uniqueness: The only DOHC corvette, complete w/ appropriate body accommodations and other appointments and limited numbers made!
Performance: No slouch even by today's standards, and with passive modifications can still "elbow its way to a place at the bar" with contemporary cars. "Corners like it is on rails"
Classic beauty: Subjective (granted), but it gets many unsolicited 'props' from the public; whether at a gas station or char show or supermarket. "Is that new?"
Support: This forum (and others like it), the ZR-1 Net Registry members, the specialist vendors catering to the "Z", e.g., (and I hesitate to say because I can't mention them all, but...) Jerry's Gaskets, Haibeck Automotive Technology, Corey Henderson, SGC, Dempsey Anderson, Pete Polatsidis, AES, Dominic Sorresso, Bob Gillig, Jim Voter, Robert DeMarco, Brett Henderson, Mark Horner, WVZR-1, Cliff (aka Dynomite)...are a few that come to my humble mind.
Reliability: "Bulletproof" IF well sorted out and maintained.
DOHC: It is controversial, even among Corvette enthusiasts. However, its advantages - even among other GM products - are unmistakable and is ever more embraced by more of the automotive industry for its overall performance advantages.


some Cons (I admit) are:


Local dealerships and independent shops (in general) are NOT a reliable source of repair.
Parts are pretty much limited to other owners and a few specialists (e.g., Jerry's Gaskets). And, the cost for unique parts can be high.
Some cars on the market suffer from neglect and lack of proper maintenance. This results in many new owners (especially) inheriting problems from the previous owner(s) for which they my not be equipped or yet skilled to deal with.
These cars are getting old. Although most of the stuff that is failing is relatively easy to replace, the list can be comprehensive and daunting - especially to new owners.
The technology is dated, pretty much, especially the diagnostics, suspension, etc. (But, on the other hand, some would say the new cars are unnecessarily appointed with a lot of "gee-wiz" stuff - more appropriate for a Cadillac than a true performance car.)
Cost for "hot-rodding" performance upgrades: No question... The advantages of current production parts and after market parts of mass-production (motor) makes the same mod daunting to many (most?) would be Corvette buyers.
Lack of lending institutions(?): May or may not be an issue with some. But, it seems to be a trend among those lenders I'm familiar with. What say U?


So, as I see it, there is a rift between market pricing and the car's true worth in all things not related to price. IMO, they ARE steal !!

I think they are a steal. I'd buy four more if I had the money. I personally hope they don't jump in value ;) But I don't think they will despite my selfish desires. I watched some other 80's and 90's cars that are far more desirable, absolutely flop at Barrett Jackson. A Ferrari Testarossa that had just had the engine out service (10k at least) done this month and an 89 Lamborghini Countach both failed to meet their reserve prices. I don't think either made it out of the 100k range. Maybe this generation of performance cars just isn't what the market wants.

Not going to comment on the valuation side of things but I can tell you that all the track miles I have in my old C5Z and the few back road miles in my C4Z that the C5Z out handles it bar none. And my newer C6ZR1 out handles it and the C5Z. The C4 did not pull close to or way over 1.0g in stock form on the skid pad. And before someone says it I do not consider .90 - .92 as being close. A set of tires will not do it. Plus the light weight of the C5Z made it easier to acheive those numbers. My C4Z does not feel light and nimble like that. Still love my car for what it is and what it was.

Most independent studies agree with you. I think driving style plays a big part in people's perception of which chassis is better. On paper, it's the C5 by a wide margin. On a track with identical drivers who are familiar with both chassis, I think it's a bit closer than the factory numbers show. With the right modifications (and nothing really over 5k), I think the C4 is right there with the C5.

[Vette73]

What year ZR1 sold for 22,000 at Barrett Jackson? Did they say how many miles? Stick or modded? Color?

I tuned in a little over the weekend and if I saw one more Porshe pass the block I was going to switch to the smithsonian channel...I'm like ee nuff already....

Listen 22K is a lot better than that white 91 selling for 12.5k at Mecum weeks ago ...

Another thing, if the car wasn't originally priced at 60-70 K we would not be having these discussions about value ....

From what I hear some used C7s I think can be had for the high 40s now....

[Fully Vetted]

You need to add in the bidders fee at the auction. Having bought at Mecums before I promise you the bidder was. Also, you're assuming PP sales would be less than the auction because of th auction hype. You can't do that. Especially at BJ because it's a no reserve auction. If that car happens to go thru at a bad time it's going to sell no matter what. You can't then say well that must be what the market is. You've got to figure in known PP sales. I have a buddy who has a classic car dealership and he has sold 2 Z's in the last couple of months. One went for $34k and the other almost $40k. And he has another one on his showroom floor that will probably sell for over $40k based on his other sales. You're putting too much focus on what happens at BJ. While it is a contributing factor the auction can create a deflated price the same as it can an inflated one.


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[A26B]

You need to add in the bidders fee at the auction. Having bought at Mecums before I promise you the bidder was. Also, you're assuming PP sales would be less than the auction because of th auction hype. You can't do that. Especially at BJ because it's a no reserve auction. If that car happens to go thru at a bad time it's going to sell no matter what. You can't then say well that must be what the market is. You've got to figure in known PP sales. I have a buddy who has a classic car dealership and he has sold 2 Z's in the last couple of months. One went for $34k and the other almost $40k. And he has another one on his showroom floor that will probably sell for over $40k based on his other sales. You're putting too much focus on what happens at BJ. While it is a contributing factor the auction can create a deflated price the same as it can an inflated one.


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Very accurate assessment & well stated.
I had a friend that sold a 63 SW Fuelie through BJ. He bought BJ prime time slot during TV coverage for big bucks. Auction running behind, missed not only prime time but continued to sell all that was scheduled for that day. By the time his car sold, late at night, most of the bidders had already gone. Didn't get squat for his car. Just another reason to not consider BJ auction hammer price as the gospel for value.

BTW, no refund on cost for prime time paid for but missed.

[rush91]

The ZR-1 that went across Barrett Jackson this weekend was a 1990. Red on red, and very clean looking.

And as far as value, ZR-1's got smacked by the early 90's inflation. $34,000 for a loaded Vette was expensive. Add another 34k on top of that for the ZR-1 and you have future number issues.......How many were put away with the intention of making triple that in 20 years? That is what I see as the issue with the prices. The ZR-1 was produced in to great of numbers to truly hold its value......6939 granted is a low number. But compared to the Buick GNX which over just 500 were made, lower numbers means steady value. Find me a GNX with under 20,000 miles that you can buy for under $30k........

For me, the C4 corvettes are the only ones I have ever driven or rode in. I have never been in a C5 ( which I find VERY ugly, any model) or a C6 ( which is how the C5 SHOULD of looked) or C7. Am I doing myself a disservice by never trying any other Gen out?? Maybe......but in my eyes, the ZR-1 was a HUGE, groundbreaking, truly legend of a car. Where was Corvette performance before the ZR-1?? NOWHERE, that's where.
It made the Corvette a world beater, and quite possibly saved the Corvette from some very dark days........No other Corvette has held and lived up to such hype. None. People can have opinions, they are like you know what, everyone has them. But to this day when I take my Beast out anywhere, it never ceases to draw a crowd.

[spork2367]

What year ZR1 sold for 22,000 at Barrett Jackson? Did they say how many miles? Stick or modded? Color?

I tuned in a little over the weekend and if I saw one more Porshe pass the block I was going to switch to the smithsonian channel...I'm like ee nuff already....

Listen 22K is a lot better than that white 91 selling for 12.5k at Mecum weeks ago ...

Another thing, if the car wasn't originally priced at 60-70 K we would not be having these discussions about value ....

From what I hear some used C7s I think can be had for the high 40s now....

It was a 1990 Bright Red, 24,300 miles.

You need to add in the bidders fee at the auction. Having bought at Mecums before I promise you the bidder was. Also, you're assuming PP sales would be less than the auction because of th auction hype. You can't do that. Especially at BJ because it's a no reserve auction. If that car happens to go thru at a bad time it's going to sell no matter what. You can't then say well that must be what the market is. You've got to figure in known PP sales. I have a buddy who has a classic car dealership and he has sold 2 Z's in the last couple of months. One went for $34k and the other almost $40k. And he has another one on his showroom floor that will probably sell for over $40k based on his other sales. You're putting too much focus on what happens at BJ. While it is a contributing factor the auction can create a deflated price the same as it can an inflated one.


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Buyers premium at Barrett Jackson is 10%. Buyers premium at Mecum is only 6%. (for bidders that are present) So that really doesn't account for much at the amounts we're talking about. 750.00 in the case of the white car at Mecum. There are plenty of reserve cars at Barrett Jackson (although admittedly not all cars can be reserve cars). And as far as the ZR1 I was talking about, it was prime time bidding. The place was packed, floor to ceiling. Highest attendance they have ever seen.

However the cars sold at auction are just a small portion of what I'm looking at. Look at the low mileage cars on eBay right now. How is your buddy selling them for 30-40k when a car on eBay with 11,400 miles just had the buy it now lowered from 26k to 25k? When it was up as an auction it got to a whopping 10,900 dollars. What about the 14,400 mile car that only made it to 18,800 and didn't sell the other day? What about the 3200 mile car that is on there now for a buy it now of 32k? Your buddy deserves salesman of the year.

[BigJohn]

Not going to comment on the valuation side of things but I can tell you that all the track miles I have in my old C5Z and the few back road miles in my C4Z that the C5Z out handles it bar none. And my newer C6ZR1 out handles it and the C5Z. The C4 did not pull close to or way over 1.0g in stock form on the skid pad. And before someone says it I do not consider .90 - .92 as being close. A set of tires will not do it. Plus the light weight of the C5Z made it easier to acheive those numbers. My C4Z does not feel light and nimble like that. Still love my car for what it is and what it was.

Ya, I don't have stock suspension on any of my cars.
On my C5 and C6 Z06 we had to disconnect the wheel sensors to decrease our lap times.
:(

[Fully Vetted]

My mistake. You're looking at two sales vehicles instead one. You're looking at auctions and eBay. Probably the two worst sources for setting a market that exist. One is dependent on 2 people being present that want the vehicle in order to drive the price up which you then can't use as a market setter and the other pulls about 2% of the buying market. First of all, if I was in the market for my first ZR-1 I would NEVER go to eBay. The reason my buddy gets those prices is he's a respected known quantity that can be trusted not to sell junk, they need nothing when you pick them up and they are well documented. Exactly what you want when buying a car like this. Would I pay his price? Probably not. But I'm a current owner. I don't need those assurances. I have resources for parts and repairs, I know what to look for and I don't really want to pay for his overhead. But for a first purchase that's where I'd go 100 times before I went to BJ, eBay or CL. Another good source is right here on The Registry. Most likely the car will be well known and it may have even changes between members hands. I bought mine here 3 years ago and paid $24k for a low production '94 AB. Seller and car were well known on the boards. I'm not saying you can't use those 2 sources. They are sources after all. Just be careful with how much weight you give them.


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[spork2367]

My mistake. You're looking at two sales vehicles instead one. You're looking at auctions and eBay. Probably the two worst sources for setting a market that exist. One is dependent on 2 people being present that want the vehicle in order to drive the price up which you then can't use as a market setter and the other pulls about 2% of the buying market. First of all, if I was in the market for my first ZR-1 I would NEVER go to eBay. The reason my buddy gets those prices is he's a respected known quantity that can be trusted not to sell junk, they need nothing when you pick them up and they are well documented. Exactly what you want when buying a car like this. Would I pay his price? Probably not. But I'm a current owner. I don't need those assurances. I have resources for parts and repairs, I know what to look for and I don't really want to pay for his overhead. But for a first purchase that's where I'd go 100 times before I went to BJ, eBay or CL. Another good source is right here on The Registry. Most likely the car will be well known and it may have even changes between members hands. I bought mine here 3 years ago and paid $24k for a low production '94 AB. Seller and car were well known on the boards. I'm not saying you can't use those 2 sources. They are sources after all. Just be careful with how much weight you give them.


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Sell junk? We're talking about cars with buy it now and 11,400 or less miles. On top of that, there is nothing stopping you from emailing the seller to go look at the vehicle. That's exactly what I did when I bought my salvage ZR1. It was actually listed as just the engine and transmission.

90% of the stuff I buy from eBay I buy through a private party sale after the auction has ended. Listing a buy it now on eBay is really no different from listing one for sale on here. It's just an advertising medium. In the end, it's the buyers responsibility to do their homework no matter where it's being sold. People are ripped off at dealerships every day of the week.

You're confusing your buddy being a dealer with him being your buddy. The two things are unrelated. If he were selling a car on craigslist you'd stop trusting him? Your buddy at the dealership apparently has a much higher premium than any of the auction houses or eBay.

What about the sub 20k mile car listed on here right now? When the story is the same across the board, you can't really blame the medium through which it's being sold as the problem. You buddies dealership seems to be the one exception.

[Fully Vetted]

My point is most people in the market for this car will not go to eBay. And they're scared to death of auctions. Your pool of sales (or non-sales) is too small if you're trying to determine what the market is if your just going to use auctions and eBay. My point is proven by the fact that my buddy is selling them WELL over what the same car IS NOT selling for on eBay or at auction. Can't argue with facts. You can't set a market off of just BJ and eBay. It just doesn't work.


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[spork2367]

My point is most people in the market for this car will not go to eBay. And they're scared to death of auctions. Your pool of sales (or non-sales) is too small if you're trying to determine what the market is if your just going to use auctions and eBay. My point is proven by the fact that my buddy is selling them WELL over what the same car IS NOT selling for on eBay or at auction. Can't argue with facts. You can't set a market off of just BJ and eBay. It just doesn't work.


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I completely disagree. The overwhelming majority of ZR1 sales are private party and auctions (including eBay). Dealer sale are by far the minority and also have the highest premiums. I think that's possibly the least accurate gauge.

Let's face it, if I'm looking for a good deal, rarely is any dealership the place to get it. The dealership is for people who have plenty of money and don't want to do the legwork themselves. Why would I pay 35-50% more to have a dealer tell me the car is okay when I could look at it myself of even pay someone knowledgeable to come along and look for far less. I bet someone not comfortable looking the car over themself could fly Marc out to look at a car for less than the premium a dealer commands.

[edram454]

What year ZR1 sold for 22,000 at Barrett Jackson? Did they say how many miles? Stick or modded? Color?

I tuned in a little over the weekend and if I saw one more Porshe pass the block I was going to switch to the smithsonian channel...I'm like ee nuff already....

Listen 22K is a lot better than that white 91 selling for 12.5k at Mecum weeks ago ...

Another thing, if the car wasn't originally priced at 60-70 K we would not be having these discussions about value ....

From what I hear some used C7s I think can be had for the high 40s now....


It was a 1990 red with tan interior at around 16k miles. it sold for 22.5k.

[Fully Vetted]

I agree to an extent. That's also why I said I would not use a dealer. But the reason they pay the premium is because to everyone except us these cars are scary as hell. All they hear about is the exotic engine and lack of parts. Paying a premium to someone they trust is much better than paying a premium to somebody they don't. But make no mistake about it, there are a lot of these cars being sold at dealerships. Enough so that you can't just ignore them if you're trying to establish a market price and go with what you see at the auctions and eBay.


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[Fully Vetted]

I think we just differ in our philosophy. You're trying to establish a market based on cars that didn't sell and I'm saying you should establish the market based on cars that did sell. Which do you think is more accurate? That eliminates the reason it didn't sell (which I think COULD be how and where it's being sold which you disagree) and only concentrates on cars that are sold, the condition, the year and the sell price.

[spork2367]

It was a 1990 red with tan interior at around 16k miles. it sold for 22.5k.

No. It was red with a gray interior and 24,300 miles. (They didn't actually state the mileage on TV.)

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1990-CHEVROLET-CORVETTE-ZR1-195980

I agree to an extent. That's also why I said I would not use a dealer. But the reason they pay the premium is because to everyone except us these cars are scary as hell. All they hear about is the exotic engine and lack of parts. Paying a premium to someone they trust is much better than paying a premium to somebody they don't. But make no mistake about it, there are a lot of these cars being sold at dealerships. Enough so that you can't just ignore them if you're trying to establish a market price and go with what you see at the auctions and eBay.

I agree that many laymen feel better going to a dealer. Dealers are still the minority compared to private party sales though. (I consider eBay's "buy it now" private party as the buyer pays no premium.)

I think we just differ in our philosophy. You're trying to establish a market based on cars that didn't sell and I'm saying you should establish the market based on cars that did sell. Which do you think is more accurate? That eliminates the reason it didn't sell (which I think COULD be how and where it's being sold which you disagree) and only concentrates on cars that are sold, the condition, the year and the sell price.

I can see where you're coming from there. The other side is, if these clean low mileage cars aren't selling for 20-25k and the dealership cars by your account are selling for 30-40k, it's not like the other clean low mileage cars aren't selling because they are priced too low. We can completely and reasonably infer that they are priced too high and that is why they aren't selling. Let's face it, there is some maintenance that a 3400 mile car will inevitably need when you buy it, but so long as it hasn't been wrecked, it really isn't going to be hiding a lot of secrets. Abused cars just don't float around with only 3400 miles on the clock.

[Fully Vetted]

...if these clean low mileage cars aren't selling for 20-25k and the dealership cars by your account are selling for 30-40k, it's not like the other clean low mileage cars aren't selling because they are priced too low. We can completely and reasonably infer that they are priced too high and that is why they aren't selling.

How are they priced too high if the dealership's pricing them (and selling them) even higher? If the cars are equal and they aren't selling at auction but they are selling for more money at dealerships it has to be the venue. I don't think most people trust auctions or eBay. I think generally speaking people trust classic car dealerships. They only make money one way. They don't get any kick backs. There is no service department and they don't sell parts. They depend on word of mouth and repeat business. I think that's how they can get the higher prices.

[Fully Vetted]

Oh, wait. You're saying they're priced too high and not reaching the reserve.. I see. But the point still remains that they ARE selling someplace else for more. Why?

[d15b7]

hi guys. very interesting discussion! I'll chime in with a few thoughts --

1. these trends seem to turn on a dime. about 3-4 years ago, I was thinking of buying a 85-88 TestaRossa. I hemmed and hawwed around, almost buying two different cars (both cars had 20k miles on them, seemed in excellent shape, records, etc) and offered $42-44k one after the other in a 3 month period. both times allllllmost bought the car (first guy wanted $45k; second $47k. of course I stood firm. now those cars are all bringing $100-135k. and it turned around SUDDENLY. btw they made many many TestaRossas. same with the Bandit TAs; those tripled in value in about 24 months. and they made tens of thousands of those things!

2. auctions can be scary, mainly due to the fact that you can't test drive the car. you can't even look at it up on a lift. there is no PPI. all of those things can be arranged at a private sale, or a dealer. but at an auction, it's tough.

anyway, I ended up buying my 90 black/black Z bone stock with 8k miles on it. I am SUPER happy with it!!! but I am still bummed I didn't by the TR -- if I had, I could have flipped it in 3 yrs and bought my Z and had close to $50k left in my pocket lol.

point is, there is no telling ---- our Zs could languish in the $20ks range for a long time. or suddenly they could double - triple in a year or two window. it's very fickle like that.

Todd

PS I watch the auctions mostly for fun; have you noticed that the announcers ALWAYS mention how much they like the ZR-1s? and how they feel that they are undervalued? it's interesting. remember there are millions of viewers that watch these broadcast. maybe some will start buying Zs because of what the announcers are saying!

[spork2367]

How are they priced too high if the dealership's pricing them (and selling them) even higher? If the cars are equal and they aren't selling at auction but they are selling for more money at dealerships it has to be the venue. I don't think most people trust auctions or eBay. I think generally speaking people trust classic car dealerships. They only make money one way. They don't get any kick backs. There is no service department and they don't sell parts. They depend on word of mouth and repeat business. I think that's how they can get the higher prices.

First off, you talk about your buddies dealership and then talk about dealership"s" plural. How many dealerships are you pooling data from? If dealerships are making 10-20k profit on these cars, why aren't they buying every low mileage 20-25k car out there and flipping them for an easy 10k? In the last three years I've watched probably 100 eBay, private party (on this forum and several other venues), and auction sales. With very few exceptions (rare color combinations on later cars) the average price is nowhere near 30-40k.

Most of the cars selling on eBay are not selling in auction style sales, but as buy it now, which is just a private party sale where you pay a percentage to basically advertise on eBay. Any buyer can ask to go look at any one of those cars. There is no rule. And sure, other genuine auctions are a risk. With the exception that Barrett Jackson certainly isn't going to let some turd go across the block on prime time television.

Oh, wait. You're saying they're priced too high and not reaching the reserve.. I see. But the point still remains that they ARE selling someplace else for more. Why?

I don't believe that they are selling for more someplace else. That is what your claim is. I'm not saying it never happens, but high dollar dealership sales are not the typical ZR1 venue. For every five ZR1s I've seen listed on eBay, only one of those five is a dealership. And almost any decent dealership is going to advertise a car like that somewhere. Either eBay, a classic car trader type venue or online search engine for classic cars. They aren't relying on walk ins to see that car and buy it.

hi guys. very interesting discussion! I'll chime in with a few thoughts --

1. these trends seem to turn on a dime. about 3-4 years ago, I was thinking of buying a 85-88 TestaRossa. I hemmed and hawwed around, almost buying two different cars (both cars had 20k miles on them, seemed in excellent shape, records, etc) and offered $42-44k one after the other in a 3 month period. both times allllllmost bought the car (first guy wanted $45k; second $47k. of course I stood firm. now those cars are all bringing $100-135k. and it turned around SUDDENLY. btw they made many many TestaRossas. same with the Bandit TAs; those tripled in value in about 24 months. and they made tens of thousands of those things!

Look at where Porches were 6+ years ago to now. And I'm talking base 911s, not turbos. My sister bought a 1984 911 for 16k and 5 years later it books for like 24k. The Bandit TAs were a fluke. Those two sold at Barrett Jackson, one for high 80k and one for like 108k as I recall. One sold last weekend there for like 30k. They came back down to earth quick.

2. auctions can be scary, mainly due to the fact that you can't test drive the car. you can't even look at it up on a lift. there is no PPI. all of those things can be arranged at a private sale, or a dealer. but at an auction, it's tough.

anyway, I ended up buying my 90 black/black Z bone stock with 8k miles on it. I am SUPER happy with it!!! but I am still bummed I didn't by the TR -- if I had, I could have flipped it in 3 yrs and bought my Z and had close to $50k left in my pocket lol.

Where did you buy yours, out of curiousity?

point is, there is no telling ---- our Zs could languish in the $20ks range for a long time. or suddenly they could double - triple in a year or two window. it's very fickle like that.

Todd

PS I watch the auctions mostly for fun; have you noticed that the announcers ALWAYS mention how much they like the ZR-1s? and how they feel that they are undervalued? it's interesting. remember there are millions of viewers that watch these broadcast. maybe some will start buying Zs because of what the announcers are saying!

They comment every single time. They said on this last one: "watch for these to go up in value...."

[Fully Vetted]

Lol…ok. You're right. Enjoy your study of BJ and eBay sales.


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[d15b7]

ya it seems any aircooled P car ever built has been dragged up into the stratosphere recently lol. I bought mine from a private party; right place at the right time sort of deal. he was moving and needed to sell; it was dead of winter snowstorm after snowstorm. I was the only guy crazy enough to drive a truck and enclosed trailer up into CT in all that (first time I've ever trailered with the truck in 4x4 for hundreds of miles at a stretch)

[Z51JEFF]

For somebody not looking for an argument you're not very good at it. Try and keep in mind here your argu, in a discussion here with people that might know the market just a liiiiiiiitle bit better than you do.

[spork2367]

Lol…ok. You're right. Enjoy your study of BJ and eBay sales.

A response like this tells me that your opinion is based solely on your buddy at one dealership, which is hardly a reasonable sample size. If you have something more than that, feel free to share. I'm genuinely interested.

10 years ago the majority of ZR1 owners probably did buy their cars from dealerships where first owners traded in or dumped the cars when they realized they were only depreciating. The market is completely different now. Despite how stupid you think it is, and how stupid I think it is, TV auctions, eBay, TV shows and and other media sources absolutely drive the prices on many if not most collectors cars. As someone pointed out earlier, those two ridiculous Firebird TAs sold for what they did due to those idiots at gas monkey garage. Look at Hemi Cudas vs. most other hemi cars. Magnus Walker has had a huge influence on 911 prices. I hate that one person can affect an entire market, but in the technology and social media driven society we now live in, that happens every single day.

Do you believe that every BJ and Mecum auction and every eBay sale is an exception out of fear that the car isn't going to be well sorted? Why is it that every one of those sources is showing the same trend while your buddies dealership seems to be the one exception? Maybe he is the exception and not the norm. If 20k is such a smoking deal, by your own statements of what your buddy is selling them for, and the big difference in buying a car at a dealership is because the buyer "knows" it's sorted out and right, shouldn't a low mileage car that's sorted for 25k on the premier forum for ZR1 enthusiasts sell immediately....because it hasn't. Also note that the 11,400 mile black car on eBay is also on here....unsold.

I understand what you're saying about dealerships, buyers, confidence levels, etc., but I believe that was the 10 year ago market, not today's market.

Try and keep in mind here your argu, in a discussion here with people that might know the market just a liiiiiiiitle bit better than you do.

I was hoping for some insight and different opinions, but I was looking for some evidence and empirical data to go with that. There are tens of thousands of people who own collector cars but don't know what the market is doing. Saying that one dealership is selling a handful of them for 30-40k isn't really going to convince me that's where the market is at when I've seen 70-100 examples that don't show that at all. It's statistically unlikely that there are 70-100 coincidences and only a handful of cars that represent the "real" market value.

[8cam]

Marketing.

A private party sale can sit on the market with no action, reducing the price until it finally sells, and only the buyer is happy. But a dealer with the right resources and contacts can market the car and extract a higher price. Happens all the time in the Ferrari world and I can definitely see it with these cars too.

[-=Jeff=-]

Only useless thing I can add is I never purchased my car as a money investment. I bought mine because I always wanted one since they came out.. Thee will always be someone faster than me, there will always be one newer than me. At the end of the day, I have a fun car in the garage and a smile on my face

[G8nightman]

Only useless thing I can add is I never purchased my car as a money investment. I bought mine because I always wanted one since they came out.. Thee will always be someone faster than me, there will always be one newer than me. At the end of the day, I have a fun car in the garage and a smile on my face

Couldn't have said it better :fahne::fahne::fahne::fahne:

[tf95ZR1]

More not good news.
Read the last paragraph about the ZR-1

http://collectorscarworld.com/news/graph-of-the-week-7/

[LGAFF]

World speed history needs to be publicized as part of its history.....class record still stands!
,
http://www.fia.com/sports/fia-world-land-speed-records

Overall is with the VW W12 Prototype

[spork2367]

More not good news.
Read the last paragraph about the ZR-1

http://collectorscarworld.com/news/graph-of-the-week-7/

And I think that is what these cars are relegated to. Unless you're willing to buy a pile of spare parts, or several parts cars, you will always have a car that if driven, could have a failure that may not be fixable in the future.

The body style was too much (or too little I suppose) for the awesome engine to overcome, and the fear of parts availability will never allow them to reach their potential as investment cars.

That doesn't stop us from loving the car, buying them, and keeping them running, it just stops them from accruing major value. I know there are people out there (and in here) waiting for these to go the way of the Ferrari 308, but it isn't likely to happen.

I laugh every time I drive by a base C4 listed over 10k....yeah, good luck.

[MickeyD]

I think everyone's question to prices of our cars are valid. For me, I bought mine first because of the depressed price and hope for increased value in future. I think I bought them right. Will they go up in value? In reality no one even on here knows. I have 2 with low mileage I drive sparingly, just around block to keep them running. The third I drive but not a lot. If they skyrocket up in 5 years, I look like a genius. (Which I'm not!) If they don't I have 2 brand new cars that I absolutely love having, because I could not afford brand new. For those of us who drive them like they stole em, and they'll never go up in value, I think thats a great idea. For those of us that are keeping them in our museum at home, I think thats a great idea. No one is wrong either way. Buy em and do what you love to do with them! And btw, I think everyone is entitled to my opinion. Although I could be wrong. Just my 2 cents.

[henryr]

i'm new over here from fchat....so this may be out of turn but...

i'll call hogwash on the parts / electronics issue...

many of the F cars have parts that are NLA (as in your paying $2k for a fog lamp) or it needs to be made. when i sold my car, springs and rear sway bars were not available for my model. seen testarossa prices lately ?

what about 928s ? they are electrical nightmares. they've more than doubled.

the cost to rebuild motors on a 88 M3 and M5 cost as much as a used ZR1. they have tripled plus in value.

ZR1s cars are cheap.

[Kevin]

You're not out of line at all. A friend of mine owns both a red head and a 928 and the prices of these cars are insane. Even 328 prices are getting nuts. And dare I say that the 928 and TR aren't that great to drive.

[mike100]

I've been getting $15k-ish offers on my 42k mi 91. I think it is worth a little more, but you have to accept the fact that these cars are getting closer to $10-$12k range for higher mileage examples and everybody wants a deal.

No first time C4 owner is thinking about spares, rebuilt ZF's, or the fact that one car has had thousands of dollars thrown at it and another not. They just want the cheap price.

[spork2367]

i'll call hogwash on the parts / electronics issue...

many of the F cars have parts that are NLA (as in your paying $2k for a fog lamp) or it needs to be made. when i sold my car, springs and rear sway bars were not available for my model. seen testarossa prices lately ?

what about 928s ? they are electrical nightmares. they've more than doubled.

the cost to rebuild motors on a 88 M3 and M5 cost as much as a used ZR1. they have tripled plus in value.

ZR1s cars are cheap.

Hogwash in what sense? That people aren't worried about electronics on a limited production OBDI engine? Or that they are hard to find and or expensive? Any part or service on one of these cars has to be looked at in terms of the percentage of the value of the car that the part or service constitutes. A 10-15k rebuild may be reasonable on a car that is worth 100,000, but is not reasonable on a car that is worth 20,000.


A Ferrari 308 (same class as ZR1) ECU can be had on Ebay for 400.00. When is the last time you saw a ZR1 ECU for 400.00? A Ferrari 308 ignition module is 200.00. A Porsche 928 ignition module is 250.00. And that is for cars that are double or triple the price of a ZR1. So based on the average value of a 308 an ignition module is .0033 percent of the cars cost. The average cost of a 928 is about 70,000. That makes the ignition module about .0035 percent of the cars cost.

A decent ZR1 ignition module without broken plastic is going to run 700.00. With the average price of a ZR1 hovering in the 25,000 range that makes the ignition module almost 3% of the cars cost. That's insane. People are going to start buying 10,000 dollar drivers for parts cars.

In the case of the 928, the basic engine architecture of the DOHC engine spanned a 10 year production period and they made 61,000 928's (20,000 with DOHC engines).

In the case of the 308, the engine was used in multiple models, not just the 308. It was also in production for several decades. And even the Ferrari 308 saw 13,000 units produced.

Despite the fact that ECU and ignition module failures constitute a relatively low percentage of issues that make a ZR1 a paperweight, if you own the car where one fails....you aren't going to care that you make up the .001 percent of failures. In 5 years there likely won't be any DIS modules for sale.

I am on my way to owning two parts cars and a complete engine and I don't have a driving ZR1...

[jcruz]

I keep telling my wife we're sitting on a gold mine, so I hope that pans out! LOL

[spork2367]

I keep telling my wife we're sitting on a gold mine, so I hope that pans out! LOL

Hopefully by the time she figures out it's an iron pyrite mine, she's invested too much to back out....lol.

[Dds1990]

I purchased my Bright Red 1990 #0106 with 30,500 miles on it from a Chevrolet Dealership in Ft Wayne In. in July 2016. I got it for 17k. It had the usual issues headlights, Bose system, Infl light on, and the secondarys were not working so I beat the poor salemans price down from his asking price of $23,500. I have owned 3 Novas 67, 72, and 74, And 3 Mustangs 1970 Mach 1, 1971 Boss 351, and a 20th Aniv 1984. I believe the ZR1's are the next Corvette to begin its increase in value. Lets think about just performance. The C3's, no offense to their owners, were lacking in performance to say the least. Before its all over the LT5 beast will be like the L88 in my opinion. The ZR1 was the first performance car since the vettes of the muscle car era. But like most of the other owners here if it goes up in value great but who cares...I love driving and owning this car more so than any other I have owned.

[diamond zr1]

THEY ARE GREAT DRIVING CARS/but made way too many to ever be compared to the L88/really low mile stock cars in unusual colors will be the 1st to go up/the rare cars like the callaway/zr1/cr1 aerobodys/built 11/and the Lingenfelter body cars maybe/if future governments don't outlaw them on the highway/I continue to be amazed that with all the regulations coming out of this government,that doing modifications to brakes/suspensions/motors is still allowed

[Dynomite]

Doing modifications of any kind is just fine in South Dakota. I know a guy that has 5 ZR-1s and all are now in perfect running condition with NO Codes of any kind. He obtained the ZR-1s for between $14K and $19K.

One thing not mentioned is reliability and once the basic stuff (A Top End Restoration including Starter, Alternator, Vacuum System and Valley clean up).......the ZR-1s will run forever. The Top End Restoration usually takes three days.....disassembly and cleaning the first day, Thinking the second day, and Reassembly the third day. The Replacement parts are the normal (Injectors 50% of time, Vacuum System 25% of time, Coils 75% of time, Plugs 100% of time, Plug wires 100% of time, Secondary Linkage (100% of time because it is so cheap to replace). Also 100% of the time I include New Serpentine Belt, New Injector "O" Rings, SS Plenum Allen Bolts, New Charcoal Canister and New PCV Hoses (includes all 4), Fuel Pressure Regulating Valve Vacuum hose, Map Vacuum hose.. The rest of the restoration consists of degreasing, wire brushing. pressure washing, painting, and final adjustments including INFL REST reconditioning. Almost forgot.....New Radiator Hoses and New Aluminum Radiators (Fluidyne, Dewitt, Ron Davis), Differential Drain Plug, ZFdoc C4 Beam Plates and new 180 deg Thermostats 100% of the time. And......Haibeck CHIP 100% of the time.


This ALL after a basic Compression Test.

And....And.......Always BLOCK TB Coolant at the Injector Housing and Install Differential Drain Plug as well as ZFdoc C4 Beam Plates.
And.....Always install SS Braided Oil Coolant Hoses as well as Billet Aluminum Pulleys (Water Pump, Power Steering, Belt Tensioner).
And......ALWAYS Change ALL Fluids for a good starting point.
And.......Sometimes install C5-Z06 Calipers with Wilwood Rotors and SW Headers/Exhaust (That Combination goes together).
And.......Sometimes install C5-Z06 Calipers with Wilwood Rotors and SW Headers/Exhaust (That Combination goes together).
Sometimes install a new Oil Pan Gasket just to keep any and all oil off the garage floor. This includes checking the Oil Pump Cover Plate.

See Typical ZR-1 Restorations (http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-13.html#post1592505526)

I do some other stuff like the guy who has 5 ZR-1s just because working on the LT5/ZR-1 is soooooooo much fun.

1991 ZR-1 restored with 500+ horsepower
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite6/353a8770-2463-4a3d-bd53-860920b2b618.jpg

As I recall.....the guy with the 5 ZR-1s picked them up for between $14K and $19K (19K for a 95 in mint condition).
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite18/1bfca02a-42cf-4fb3-8830-214d7202627c.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite19/e8fb8558-36a0-46cb-8b1c-b583fdae71eb.jpg

#72 1990.....one of the first ZR-1s built
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite16/4858cbae-2a7e-4b99-acec-0d3111587e02.jpg

#3032 1990.......the last ZR1 sold to public
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite8/35a640fa-36e6-41a2-afde-c1eb945b31fc.jpg

Top End Restoration on 1990 #2067
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite3/e432a450-3b35-4a8e-9c8c-75b433b4ac6f.jpg

[razorZR1]

Hi Cliff,
Since I gave you a mint 95 cheap are you going to help me out with a Top End Restoration if I get a 94 I am bidding on currently :)

[QUOTE=Dynomite;248610]Doing modifications of any kind is just fine in South Dakota. I know a guy that has 5 ZR-1s and all are now in perfect running condition with NO Codes of any kind. He obtained the ZR-1s for between $14K and $19K.

One thing not mentioned is reliability and once the basic stuff (A Top End Restoration including Starter, Alternator, Vacuum System and Valley clean up).......the ZR-1s will run forever. The Top End Restoration usually takes three days.....disassembly and cleaning the first day, Thinking the second day, and Reassembly the third day. The Replacement parts are the normal (Injectors 50% of time, Vacuum System 25% of time, Coils 75% of time, Plugs 100% of time, Plug wires 100% of time, Secondary Linkage (100% of time because it is so cheap to replace). The rest of the restoration consists of degreasing, wire brushing. pressure washing, painting, and final adjustments including INFL REST reconditioning. Almost forgot.....New Radiator Hoses and New Aluminum Radiators (Fluidyne, Dewitt, Ron Davis, and new 180 deg Thermostats 100% of the time. And......Haibeck CHIP 100% of the time.

[Dynomite]

Hi Cliff,
Since I gave you a mint 95 cheap are you going to help me out with a Top End Restoration if I get a 94 I am bidding on currently :)

[QUOTE=Dynomite;248610]Doing modifications of any kind is just fine in South Dakota. I know a guy that has 5 ZR-1s and all are now in perfect running condition with NO Codes of any kind. He obtained the ZR-1s for between $14K and $19K.

One thing not mentioned is reliability and once the basic stuff (A Top End Restoration including Starter, Alternator, Vacuum System and Valley clean up).......the ZR-1s will run forever. The Top End Restoration usually takes three days.....disassembly and cleaning the first day, Thinking the second day, and Reassembly the third day. The Replacement parts are the normal (Injectors 50% of time, Vacuum System 25% of time, Coils 75% of time, Plugs 100% of time, Plug wires 100% of time, Secondary Linkage (100% of time because it is so cheap to replace). The rest of the restoration consists of degreasing, wire brushing. pressure washing, painting, and final adjustments including INFL REST reconditioning. Almost forgot.....New Radiator Hoses and New Aluminum Radiators (Fluidyne, Dewitt, Ron Davis, and new 180 deg Thermostats 100% of the time. And......Haibeck CHIP 100% of the time.

Yep......it will take two days to do a Top End for you as I have already thought about it.....:D

I installed a ZFdoc 91' Black Label Transmission with short shifter in that 95' and the 95' Blue Label Transmission is on its way to ZFdoc 8th October for rebuild ;)

That 95' did have a very strange INJ1 issue which fuse kept blowing as I pulled into my driveway which I think I finally solved it being in the DIS Connector or associated splices in the DIS Connector Wiring.

That is the beauty of Blocking TB Coolant as I had that Plenum OFF (actually removed it with an ohm meter attached to INJ1 Fuse downside) and found exactly when INJ1 Fuse blew. That took several times doing my 6 minute Plenum Removal :sign10:

On that 95' Top End Restoration I replaced the entire Vacuum System under the plenum for $100 (93' to 95') from Jerry's which I recommend for ALL

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/321/images/1501/10168624__65693.1440856818.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

I like the 95' best as it is the most comfortable and has the best dash and Read Out on the Speedo of Oil and Coolant Temperature in deg F of any year ZR-1

My LT5 Top End (including additional drive train and under the hood Restorations) has got to add about $5K-$10K to the value but for you it will be free if you hand me the tools :cheers:

[-=Jeff=-]

I like the 95' best as it is the most comfortable and has the best dash and Read Out on the Speedo of Oil and Coolant Temperature in deg F of any year ZR-1


What makes the 95 most comfortable? Also the Oila nd Temp readout would be nice int he 90-91..

[cvette98pacecar]

What makes the 95 most comfortable? Also the Oila nd Temp readout would be nice int he 90-91..

Jeff, you wouldn't fit in a 94/95 anyway. The seat is widened so it has to raised which you lose 2.5" of headroom.

[-=Jeff=-]

Jeff, you wouldn't fit in a 94/95 anyway. The seat is widened so it has to raised which you lose 2.5" of headroom.

I have driven a 96 GS and I fit.. I have 94 seats in my 90. I fit..

I was curious as to what makes it more comfortable, the seats the dash? the nicer LCD?? or other..

[BigJohn]

Jeff, you wouldn't fit in a 94/95 anyway. The seat is widened so it has to raised which you lose 2.5" of headroom.

Cool Beans!
I am 6'6" and 400lbs;I have no problem driving my 95 or 96.

[Dynomite]

I have driven a 96 GS and I fit.. I have 94 seats in my 90. I fit..

I was curious as to what makes it more comfortable, the seats the dash? the nicer LCD?? or other..

The Seats primarily :cheers:
The Readout is very nice to have without trying to use the HVAC on a 90/91 which will read Oil and Coolant Temp in deg C.
And.......that ZFdoc Short Shifter in the 91' Transmission (installed in the 95') is almost like an Automatic Transmission ;)
One other item that makes a ZR-1 nice to drive is a New Windshield from Dave which I installed in my 90' #72.

[5ABI VT]

I always wondered if it was documented or just in my head that my 94 seats sit me higher up in the car !! I absolutely hate it !! I am used to my 93 sport seats in my LT1 car though and it makes me sit lower and 'inside' the cockpit of the interior. I always felt like my 94 sat me a little above the inside of the 'cockpit' and was the reason for my search and purchase of older seats. The 94 seats and interior most definitely do look more modern and up to date.. But every time I sat in my 93 it really made me feel disappointed with the seats.

[tf95ZR1]

A trick I learned from Locobob years ago for us taller guys:
Remove the seat cushion (there's a latch in the front underneath).
You will see 2 straps running back to front. Un-clip them
and you'll sit lower and gain about 1" of headroom.

Still not enough with a helmet on. Remove the T-top?
Not as rigid. I saw one guy with a custom T-top where
he "bubbled" the glass. Looked like Herman Munster,
but functional I suppose.

[BigJohn]

You can raise and lower your seats with the electrical adjustment motors!

[FU]

And I put blocks on the clutch and brake pedals so I can reach them.

[rush91]

You can raise and lower your seats with the electrical adjustment motors!


Hahahaha!! Yes indeed one can....

[-=Jeff=-]

And I put blocks on the clutch and brake pedals so I can reach them.


Too funny Frank!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=90383)

[Roadster]

Only useless thing I can add is I never purchased my car as a money investment. I bought mine because I always wanted one since they came out.. Thee will always be someone faster than me, there will always be one newer than me. At the end of the day, I have a fun car in the garage and a smile on my face

Couldn't have said it better :fahne::fahne::fahne::fahne:

:cheers: To the above two posts.......

To me it really comes down to what your actual car interests are, in regarding too, are you purchasing the vehicle for an investment, to drive, or possibly a combination of the two?
Having owned a number of Corvettes over the years. All have been "dd's", except the 74 which is under construction. Yes, did use the ZR-1 for about 7 weeks til I got my 82 back on the road over a year ago. That being said, I have made some $$$ on some of the ones I have sold and have also not made any $$$ on the others.
I bought the 94Z because I feel besides the C5 Z06, these are the best two buys on the market in this decade. I also have a habit which I am assuming that other members have and that is to pick up spare parts from time-to-time, just in case!!!
I'm just happy to own the Vettes that I do, if I sell one in the future, then fine, sell it for what it will bring and be done with it. To me a Corvette is a Corvette, is a Corvette. Sure some Corvettes look better than others, they do because of color combination, wheels etc., etc. So what, if you like, buy it, drive it. If you don't like it then don't buy it.
I've always enjoyed driving Corvettes, regardless!!! Corvettes are in my blood and always will be......investment status means nothing to me, driving pleasure is what it's all about, at least for me.....:D

[Z51JEFF]

I honestly don't see how removing the elastic straps in the seat frame can do anything as far as height goes,these things help support the foam from going down into the seat frame. All this talk about value,WHO GIVES A RATSA$$! I didn't buy an investment,I bought a ZR-1. I've had my car for goin on 10 years and not thinking about selling any time soon. Not to derail the value thread here but who cares about value,it's kind of nice to be able to cruise under the radar. But values will rise,I've been saying it for over 26 years,just a matter of time.

[tf95ZR1]

And I put blocks on the clutch and brake pedals so I can reach them.

Frank, you use/need a brake pedal?
Not what I heard.
:-)

[razorZR1]

I went and looked at one yesterday and didn't like it. The hunt continues. I thought I was going to come home with a White one. With our climate and weather I need a black interior for sure. Thank you for the offer, I wouldnt let you do it for nothing.


[QUOTE=razorZR1;248614]Hi Cliff,
Since I gave you a mint 95 cheap are you going to help me out with a Top End Restoration if I get a 94 I am bidding on currently :)



Yep......it will take two days to do a Top End for you as I have already thought about it.....:D

I installed a ZFdoc 91' Black Label Transmission with short shifter in that 95' and the 95' Blue Label Transmission is on its way to ZFdoc 8th October for rebuild ;)

That 95' did have a very strange INJ1 issue which fuse kept blowing as I pulled into my driveway which I think I finally solved it being in the DIS Connector or associated splices in the DIS Connector Wiring.

That is the beauty of Blocking TB Coolant as I had that Plenum OFF (actually removed it with an ohm meter attached to INJ1 Fuse downside) and found exactly when INJ1 Fuse blew. That took several times doing my 6 minute Plenum Removal :sign10:

On that 95' Top End Restoration I replaced the entire Vacuum System under the plenum for $100 (93' to 95') from Jerry's which I recommend for ALL

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/321/images/1501/10168624__65693.1440856818.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

I like the 95' best as it is the most comfortable and has the best dash and Read Out on the Speedo of Oil and Coolant Temperature in deg F of any year ZR-1

My LT5 Top End (including additional drive train and under the hood Restorations) has got to add about $5K-$10K to the value but for you it will be free if you hand me the tools :cheers:

[Z51JEFF]

I went and looked at one yesterday and didn't like it. The hunt continues. I thought I was going to come home with a White one. With our climate and weather I need a black interior for sure. Thank you for the offer, I wouldnt let you do it for nothing.


[QUOTE=Dynomite;248618]

There is a white-black 91 in San Jose with under 25,000 miles the guy was talking about selling to move up to a 405 HP car.

[spork2367]

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1990-CHEVROLET-CORVETTE-ZR1-195737

I know there are some who think auction values don't mean anything, but saw these two on Barrett Jackson and figured I'd post them for the people who may be interested.

This one was pretty interesting.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1955-CHEVROLET-NOMAD-CUSTOM-WAGON-199460

[Vette73]

35,000 Hmm.....Well I guess that gives sellers who are asking high twenties for high teens,20K mileage cars some idea of where to price there vehicles ..

Probably won't see another ZR1 for sale with that little mileage...

[Mystic ZR-1]

Maybe the world is finally coming to it's senses?
Should be 3 times that price!
I know, preaching to the choir...

[spork2367]

35,000 Hmm.....Well I guess that gives sellers who are asking high twenties for high teens,20K mileage cars some idea of where to price there vehicles ..

Probably won't see another ZR1 for sale with that little mileage...

That's probably one of, if not the, lowest mileage 1990 in the most original condition. If that's a 35k car that really puts these 20k cars squarely at the 18-20k dollar range. And certainly implies that Hagerty's #1 pricing may be a bit unrealistic.

Although that Nomad makes my parts cars seem like a safe investment...lol.

[BigJohn]

Maybe the world is finally coming to it's senses?
Should be 3 times that price!
I know, preaching to the choir...



What???

[Mystic ZR-1]

What???

You're not in the choir...
You always sing off key!

��

[BigJohn]

You're not in the choir...
You always sing off key!

��

Yeah you don't want to hear me sing!!!

[razorZR1]

IMO that lowers the price of the values. A one owner car that has been stored correctly with 300 miles only getting 35k, that is quite low.

[edram454]

It is low for a 300 mile original. Original means it needs lots of service and is slow moving. If anybody drives this car just a few thousand miles it will lose 10k in value. These types of cars are not attractive only to speculators. I dont know where I will price my well modded car but I know it will rip this one a new .utt hole!!:censored:

ed ramos

[spork2367]

IMO that lowers the price of the values. A one owner car that has been stored correctly with 300 miles only getting 35k, that is quite low.

It's a bit of a "market correction" for valuation guides like Hagerty's. While it's not the most desirable year or color combination, it's definitely a number one condition and is about 10k less than Hagerty's number one value.

It is low for a 300 mile original. Original means it needs lots of service and is slow moving. If anybody drives this car just a few thousand miles it will lose 10k in value. These types of cars are not attractive only to speculators. I dont know where I will price my well modded car but I know it will rip this one a new .utt hole!!:censored:

ed ramos

No one is buying it to be a driver, so it really needs no service. You're right about the mileage. Even 5k miles takes it from rare find to pretty common. There are still a pile of sub 10k cars. Modded cars are the most fun and bang for the buck, but suffer from the greatest depreciation. If you took that 300 mile car and dropped a 415 into it, you'd devalue it.

[KILLSHOTS]

It's not low. It's the market, unfortunately. If I remember correctly, there's a guy on here asking this price for his 20K-ish mile '90, and I said this was plastic-on-the-seats money for a '90. So here we go.

It is what it is. The value of my Stingray has dropped like a stone, too. It's simple supply vs. demand.

[Z51JEFF]

IMO that lowers the price of the values. A one owner car that has been stored correctly with 300 miles only getting 35k, that is quite low.

$35,000 is the market rate for that car,most common color combo didn't help the price. If it were yellow,one of the blues then value creeps up a little but not much. When a low mile $95 can be had for not too much more than this car,the markets still in the toilet. If I bought that car I'd mod the piss out of it and DRIVE IT. Don't like the idea that somebody else has already worked on the car but I work on my cars and a prospective buyer might not so the prior work is a benefit to some.

[Z51JEFF]

35,000 Hmm.....Well I guess that gives sellers who are asking high twenties for high teens,20K mileage cars some idea of where to price there vehicles ..

Probably won't see another ZR1 for sale with that little mileage...

There's more of these low mile cars out there than anybody thinks. There is a pair of red 90s that seem to pop up once a year. One has under 100 miles and the other a touch under 300 miles, both priced about $40,000 and there's a black 90 floating around that has under 50 miles that is priced under $40,000. If I had to replace my 91 I'd look for a no mile 91 and if it were the right colors I'd probably pay over $35,000. Oh,and I'd drive the piss outta that one too👍

[spork2367]

So let's summarize your basis for your "Estimate".

Because your personal experience in buying salvage or in common parlance, junk, has seen low or falling prices, you conclude that near museum quality or concours capable car values behave the same way.

Really?

Well, I mean the "commonplace salvage junk," the 10k I've spent on extremely hard to find NOS parts, the 20-30 auction sales I've seen, plus all the cars that have sold here in the last 2-3 years....

Why not this.

As junked ones become less expensive because they are more plentiful, the population of remaining quality ones diminishes. As this trend continues, the only result is higher prices for those that remain.

How many ZR1 parts cars do you see for sale at any given time? Plentiful isn't the word I'd pick. "The population of quality ones diminishes." Sure, every year another 2-3 are wrecked beyond repair. So on a yearly basis we lose .0005% of ZR1s. Five one hundredths of one percent. Statistically insignificant. Let me know how important that "junk" is when you need an ECU, or a thermostat housing...As cars become more collectible, parts cars go up in value, not down. Typically at a rate that exceeds the collectible car itself. Priced a bare 60's 426 hemi block in the last couple years. Pretty d*mn expensive "junk." This isn't my first foray into collector cars and parts. I made a killing off of my collection of Oldsmobile 442 W-30 parts about 8 years ago. The last set of "F" cast cylinder heads I sold make the going rate of a set of LT5 heads seem like pocket change.

At any rate, there will always be buyers at both ends of the spectrum.
Some want cheap, while others want the best.
Neither buyer has much interest in the other.
Price is determined as much by supply as it is by demand.
My first comment on this topic was " they are not making more of them".
As time goes by, that will continue to drive the price more and more.

It's not like a low mileage ZR1 is rare....at all. I didn't buy my salvage cars because I like cheap junk. Are you implying that half of Jerry's store is cheap junk (all his used parts)? There are still a pile of cars with less than 10k miles. Sure, they will appreciate over time. Right now however, despite the fact that "they aren't making any more of them," the price is still dropping. Right now the average price for a 94 is 22,800. And that is considering that far more of those that sold were nice cars than junkers as there just aren't many 1994 ZR1s that were beat.

OP - Yet Again; Beautiful car, and GLWS!

Marty

If you want to ignore every shred of evidence as to what these cars and their parts are selling for, be my guest. The market isn't buying your argument.

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

If you want to ignore every shred of evidence as to what these cars and their parts are selling for, be my guest. The market isn't buying your argument.

Nor is it ( or I ) buying yours.
Your evidence might be less complete than you think.
There are very few low mile cars changing hands, but do not think for a minute it just happens at auctions or sites common to you.
Those wanting the best are quietly picking them up.
Start following just the high end cars.
You will see them disappear.
Sure they may be lower than the asking price, but nowhere near the number that you "threw out"."
For what it is worth.
:cheers:
M

[lfalzarano]

Here are the valuations based on Hagerty's Evaluation Tool. The values fluctuate between years and conditions obviously.

[LGAFF]

Average Price of a ZR-1 on Autotrader

52 ZR-1s for sale
Range of prices within this search:

Highest Price:$61,900
Lowest Price:$9,777
Average Price:$26,026


A few of these are probably LT-1s mislabeled......this is a similar process with how your insurance carrier would value, they would use these and have the "take" price from dealers were applicable; VIN ID process would eliminate non-ZR-1s. A standard mileage deduction or multilplier would be applied, condition, prior damage, etc

[lfalzarano]

Average Price of a ZR-1 on Autotrader

52 ZR-1s for sale
Range of prices within this search:

Highest Price:$61,900
Lowest Price:$9,777
Average Price:$26,026


A few of these are probably LT-1s mislabeled......this is a similar process with how your insurance carrier would value, they would use these and have the "take" price from dealers were applicable; VIN ID process would eliminate non-ZR-1s. A standard mileage deduction or multilplier would be applied, condition, prior damage, etc



You didn't open the attached PDF on valuations to take some of the guessing on each ZR-1 model year.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[spork2367]

I wonder if any other Corvette registries, example Z06,C1,C2,C3,C5 etc etc have these opinions of values on there cars......I guess it's because from what I understand the C4 ZR-1 was the most expensive car sold in the nineties...

Probably not. Early corvettes (C1, C2, some C3) have value no matter how they were optioned. And the rest of C3s seem to be following. They can be restored in virtually any condition and very few of the parts suffer from the rarity/availability issues (perceived or real). C5s and newer are solely based on the depreciation of new vehicles as there is virtually no collectibility due to scarcity or age. (with exception of maybe the new ZR1)

First Gen. ZR1s break that mold. They are the least desired, least collectible generation. That may change over time, but that's the current situation. So the collectibility/value of them is based solely on the ZR1 package and the perceived supply and demand of the cars and replacement parts. And the market is currently flooded with cars and parts. Which whether you want to claim it's the cause or effect, is why the values are down.

I think what started the current decline is people selling them to buy C6 and C7s. Then as the market began to get flooded other people worried they should get out before the market tanked completely and started selling. White Racing, Jim Butler and several others have spent the last two years liquidating their ZR1 parts on ebay.

Anyone who believes that parts and parts cars (especially for limited availability cars) doesn't go right along with the market value of the cars never paid attention to 426 Hemi cars during the muscle car boom. Or, the place I made some good money, Oldsmobile 442 W-30s.

Opinions on valuations of our ZR-1s are just that....opinions. The market sets the values, not us. If one feels they have a $40,000 or $25000 Beast, its your car, you set the price. Two years ago I could of never afforded to get into one, but the market changed, and I now own my dream car.......

Except we are the market. We are the buyers and sellers. The market isn't some inanimate object or outside entity. Someone can list a car for whatever they want, but I don't think it's doing the community any favors. And some of those people may not realize where they market is at either.

Nor is it ( or I ) buying yours.
Your evidence might be less complete than you think.
There are very few low mile cars changing hands, but do not think for a minute it just happens at auctions or sites common to you.
Those wanting the best are quietly picking them up.
Start following just the high end cars.
You will see them disappear.
Sure they may be lower than the asking price, but nowhere near the number that you "threw out"."
For what it is worth.
:cheers:
M

I know the demographics of classic car sales just fine.

70% of cars change hands in private party sales. These numbers are the most accurate numbers out there. They are the deals that the buyers and sellers were both most comfortable with, with the least amount of outside influence. Most of which neither you, I, nor the valuation companies are privy to. They use some outside information, and we see a few of those sales here, but that demographic remains unaccessible. While that plays the largest part, you can't use that as part of your argument about value alone because you don't have that info. Hagerty cheats a little bit by using their insurance arm to assess values of some cars based on private party sales, but that is almost like using a word to define itself.

10% of cars are sold through dealers. Some of these are dealer owned and some are consignment. Valuation companies have some access to this information through their dealer networks (limited to only a hundred or so of the biggest classic car dealers) and buy it now online auctions. Dealer markups are often high and there is no differentiating what was car cost and what was markup. On top of that, the overwhelming number of dealer sales are very small dealers and that sales information ends there.

20% of cars end up at auctions. This information is virtually 100% accessible as is the markup in the form of buyer and seller premiums. These prices are the least reliable. They range from the extremely low to the extremely high. However because so much information is available from those sales it averages out to pretty consistent numbers. Which is why it remains the largest tool for valuation services. This is all about statistics and population size.

The auction average, combined with some private party sales, a small handful of dealer sales, and also some listing prices is where those companies numbers come from.

We have a bit of an extended view in the market here because we can watch what cars AREN'T selling for. Some company that keeps track of thousands of collectors cars doesn't have the time or resources to do that. If you want a very current Porsche 911 value, you go to Hagerty. The market is so hot for those that they probably update it weekly with large amounts of information. The ZR1 market is so limited that I'm sure it gets a minimal number of updates.


If you look at the auctions this year and say that about 40 ZR1s have gone across the block we can estimate that about 200 cars were sold. That means about 20 were sold through dealerships. So if we can view what 20 cars sold or didn't sell for here, what 40 cars went across the auction block for, and what the market on parts has done in the last year, we can get a pretty accurate view of the market ignoring the 20 cars (statistically) sold at dealerships. Would our picture be more accurate with those numbers? Absolutely. Can we come up with a great estimate without them. Yup.

[LGAFF]

You didn't open the attached PDF on valuations to take some of the guessing on each ZR-1 model year.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

When you consider there is a 10% variance vs take price....the tool is close

[G8nightman]

:happy1::happy1:

[BigJohn]

I was told many years ago that automobiles are transportation or hobby; definitely not an investment!

[-=Jeff=-]

I was told many years ago that automobiles are transportation or hobby; definitely not an investment!

Yep, I agree with BigJohn..

[KFoster]

I'm guessing you mean C4 as first gen ZR1 with your statement above. FYI, they did make a C3 ZR1. GM has them listed with their C3 info and I have seen at least one for sale in the past year. Didn't pay a lot of attention as it was $600k if I remember correctly. A little out of my range. Well, a lot out of my range.

[G8nightman]

I'm guessing you mean C4 as first gen ZR1 with your statement above. FYI, they did make a C3 ZR1. GM has them listed with their C3 info and I have seen at least one for sale in the past year. Didn't pay a lot of attention as it was $600k if I remember correctly. A little out of my range. Well, a lot out of my range.

This is true Zr1 was first in the C3 body style.

[rush91]

Originally Posted by spork2367
except we are the market. We are the buyers and sellers. The market isn't some inanimate object or outside entity. Someone can list a car for whatever they want, but I don't think it's doing the community any favors. And some of those people may not realize where they market is at either.


How can we be the market? When there are at least 10 ZR-1's sitting in dealers showrooms, with LOW LOW miles, and they are at the top pricing tier? That sets the market, that sets where all the other prices fall. I know better to ask $40,000, for a 1991 w/ 40,000 miles....but I could price it at that. And it would never sell....Those top tier, never driven more than 500 miles, they set the market.

[32valvesftw]

The reason I bought the ZR-1 is that it is an oddball and the reason the prices APPEAR to be low for the same reason. I say appear cause late 80's early 90's cars especially American cars are not yet big collectables. A good comparison might be the Grand Nationals yes they retain more of their original value but their prices have been in the same range for many years. IROC Z's are still pretty cheap, Fox Body Saleen's are similar.

[LGAFF]

Yet 185hp trans ams are going through the roof, lol

[32valvesftw]

Sally Fields in a wedding dress, come on man that adds value, it has to!

[SAB]

There's more of these low mile cars out there than anybody thinks. There is a pair of red 90s that seem to pop up once a year. One has under 100 miles and the other a touch under 300 miles, both priced about $40,000 and there's a black 90 floating around that has under 50 miles that is priced under $40,000. If I had to replace my 91 I'd look for a no mile 91 and if it were the right colors I'd probably pay over $35,000. Oh,and I'd drive the piss outta that one too��

Would you happen to know who has the black 50 mile 90ZR1 for under 40K? Would have an interest if it has a black or red interior.

[Z51JEFF]

Would you happen to know who has the black 50 mile 90ZR1 for under 40K? Would have an interest if it has a black or red interior.

Last time I saw it it was at one of the car mills but haven't seen it for awhile and I do think it had red interior because the carpet was dirty. I do know the car was beat for what it was.

[SAB]

OK, thanks for the info. I would only consider a pristine sub 100 mile car.

[rush91]

Yet 185hp trans ams are going through the roof, lol

Now that one makes me scratch my head...Makes me wish I had kept my 1979 Z28, had only 35,000 original miles when I traded it in for a 1989 Cougar. What was I thinking lol?????

[BigJohn]

In the early 70's my GTX beat every TA, Formula and GTO that I raced!
I still have my GTX.

[spork2367]

I was told many years ago that automobiles are transportation or hobby; definitely not an investment!

30 years ago that was a lot more true than today. There are cars that are investments. If you went and bought a Delahaye, that is about as safe as an stock market investment. If your Delahaye tanks, you better be stocking up ammo.

That being said, most cars and certainly ZR1s as financial tools are more akin to gambling. Could win big, could lose big, would be happy to break even.

How can we be the market? When there are at least 10 ZR-1's sitting in dealers showrooms, with LOW LOW miles, and they are at the top pricing tier? That sets the market, that sets where all the other prices fall. I know better to ask $40,000, for a 1991 w/ 40,000 miles....but I could price it at that. And it would never sell....Those top tier, never driven more than 500 miles, they set the market.

I think we're talking about two different uses of the word "market." I'm talking about the people who are buying and selling these, the "marketplace." You're talking about the market as in price.

The market price isn't what they are listed for, it's what the market can support. The unsold cars don't set the market. If every single person selling a ZR1 decided tomorrow to sell them for 100k, that wouldn't change the market price. No one would buy them. The cars that sell set the market. A 500 mile car doesn't set the market for 50,000 mile cars. That may happen in a market where there is extremely limited selection, but there is no need to extrapolate data when we have cars selling across the mileage range.

Keep in mind, statistically if there are 10 low mileage ZR1s for sale at dealerships (and I think that number is closer to 20), and that represents 10% of the low mileage cars for sale, there are 90 more for sale other places. That is a lot. And those are just the ones for sale. I think that it is extremely likely that there are 1000 sub 10k mile cars out there. This was one of the first domestic cars that people attempted to buy as an investment. Percentage wise, based on production number, there are probably more low mileage ZR1s (sub 10k) than any other 25 year old or older performance or muscle car import or domestic.

The reason I bought the ZR-1 is that it is an oddball and the reason the prices APPEAR to be low for the same reason. I say appear cause late 80's early 90's cars especially American cars are not yet big collectables. A good comparison might be the Grand Nationals yes they retain more of their original value but their prices have been in the same range for many years. IROC Z's are still pretty cheap, Fox Body Saleen's are similar.

Except that the Grand National would be like the base Corvette and the ZR1 would be the Grand National X. Priced a GNX lately?

Fox body Saleens are a steal right now. I'm not a mustang guy, but I saw one sell for like 13k. I'd drive the hell out of one for 13k.

Yet 185hp trans ams are going through the roof, lol

They dropped back down as quick as they went up. The guy who paid 80 something and the guy who paid 6 figures at the one Barrett Jackson have to feel pretty stupid. They'll never get that money back.

[Vette73]

185 HP Trans Ams.....That brings back memories...I'm 53 now and when I turned 18 I bought a 79 yellow Trans Am....29,000 miles, tan interior, T-tops ,Pontiac mags and a big red bird on the hood...Paid 5,200 dollars for it.....Car was in really nice shape...

Sold it the following year for 5,800 dollars.....Wonder what it would be worth today.......???? You have to admit even though styling was disco era they were probably the nicest looking Trans ams made....

Go price a 77-78 with a Pontiac motor , there asking price is crazy.....Seen many nice examples of 79s going for mid twenties at Barrett Jackson..

Very very low mileage examples bring close to 100K I believe...Think I saw a 79 anniversary with extremely low miles go for close to 100K at Barret Jackson ...

[KILLSHOTS]

There is far more supply of ZR-1s than there is demand for ZR-1s. It's really just that simple.

[BigJohn]

30 years ago that was a lot more true than today. There are cars that are investments. If you went and bought a Delahaye, that is about as safe as an stock market investment. If your Delahaye tanks, you better be stocking up ammo.

That being said, most cars and certainly ZR1s as financial tools are more akin to gambling. Could win big, could lose big, would be happy to break even.



I think we're talking about two different uses of the word "market." I'm talking about the people who are buying and selling these, the "marketplace." You're talking about the market as in price.

The market price isn't what they are listed for, it's what the market can support. The unsold cars don't set the market. If every single person selling a ZR1 decided tomorrow to sell them for 100k, that wouldn't change the market price. No one would buy them. The cars that sell set the market. A 500 mile car doesn't set the market for 50,000 mile cars. That may happen in a market where there is extremely limited selection, but there is no need to extrapolate data when we have cars selling across the mileage range.

Keep in mind, statistically if there are 10 low mileage ZR1s for sale at dealerships (and I think that number is closer to 20), and that represents 10% of the low mileage cars for sale, there are 90 more for sale other places. That is a lot. And those are just the ones for sale. I think that it is extremely likely that there are 1000 sub 10k mile cars out there. This was one of the first domestic cars that people attempted to buy as an investment. Percentage wise, based on production number, there are probably more low mileage ZR1s (sub 10k) than any other 25 year old or older performance or muscle car import or domestic.



Except that the Grand National would be like the base Corvette and the ZR1 would be the Grand National X. Priced a GNX lately?

Fox body Saleens are a steal right now. I'm not a mustang guy, but I saw one sell for like 13k. I'd drive the hell out of one for 13k.



They dropped back down as quick as they went up. The guy who paid 80 something and the guy who paid 6 figures at the one Barrett Jackson have to feel pretty stupid. They'll never get that money back.




The problem with cars like Delahay there less than 500 ever made.
You spend 10 years and six million on restoration.
Then at auction it sales for three million does not make it a good investment.

[henryr]

that's exactly how i wound up with my zr1. it was too cheap to pass up on after looking at saleens and GNs.....

and i wasnt finding any low mile cars for under 15k....

clean 85 86 mustang GTs are 12k + if you can find them

i could probably sell my 165k mile 88 e30 m3 faster and for more $$$ than a low mile zr1

[spork2367]

Go price a 77-78 with a Pontiac motor , there asking price is crazy.....Seen many nice examples of 79s going for mid twenties at Barrett Jackson..

Very very low mileage examples bring close to 100K I believe...Think I saw a 79 anniversary with extremely low miles go for close to 100K at Barret Jackson ...

There were two that sold at Barrett Jackson northeast. That performance hasn't been repeated and those two buyers will NEVER get that money back out of those.

There is far more supply of ZR-1s than there is demand for ZR-1s. It's really just that simple.

That's it.

The problem with cars like Delahay there less than 500 ever made.
You spend 10 years and six million on restoration.
Then at auction it sales for three million does not make it a good investment.

No one is spending 10 years or 6 million restoring a Delahaye. But regardless, I never said anything about restorations. There are two ways to make money on restorations. Be the guy getting paid to do them. Or be the guy who buys the restored car from the guy who paid to have it restored.

Yes, there are a very limited number. Which is why they are a pretty safe investment. Your Delahaye isn't likey to tank unless the entire market does. In which case most commodities will suffer.

that's exactly how i wound up with my zr1. it was too cheap to pass up on after looking at saleens and GNs.....

and i wasnt finding any low mile cars for under 15k....

clean 85 86 mustang GTs are 12k + if you can find them

i could probably sell my 165k mile 88 e30 m3 faster and for more $$$ than a low mile zr1

There are still Saleens that are going for great prices. One sold at Peterson's for like 13k.

You can buy sub 18k GNs all day long with a little looking.

There are also still plenty of fair priced fox body mustang gts. Finding clean ones can be a bit of a challenge, but I just acquired this one a little while back. All original, one owner, 56,000 miles, just a little surface rust on top and peeling pain.

http://i63.tinypic.com/feoq45.jpg

[henryr]

flash me if you see a low mile 86+ GN for under 18k ive been looking

i dont follow the 87+ fox cars up cars but that'll need 7 - 10k in paint ?

[Hog]

Not going to comment on the valuation side of things but I can tell you that all the track miles I have in my old C5Z and the few back road miles in my C4Z that the C5Z out handles it bar none. And my newer C6ZR1 out handles it and the C5Z. The C4 did not pull close to or way over 1.0g in stock form on the skid pad. And before someone says it I do not consider .90 - .92 as being close. A set of tires will not do it. Plus the light weight of the C5Z made it easier to acheive those numbers. My C4Z does not feel light and nimble like that. Still love my car for what it is and what it was.
I'm curious how the other OEM handling packages that trump the ZR-1 package handlingwise compare in your list?

C4s such as the:
91-95 ZO7 cars
84-89 Z51 cars

I didn't include the off road/race only C4 Corvettes,
the 56 1988 B9P Challenge cars(with Z51 suspensions),
the 29 1989 R7F Challenge cars-(with Z51 suspensions)
the 23 1990 R9G Challenge cars (with Z51 suspensions)

With reference to cornering performance, the ZR-1 was setup for all around performance/appeal, not ultimate cornering capability. Of course the ZR-1 packages top selling point was the LT5 engine, and the ultimate acceleration it provided.

The improvement in frame stiffness progresses by generation C4-C5-C6-C7. The stiffer the platform, the better the suspension can do its job.

For comparison purposes:
Road Track has the 1985 IROC-Z pulling 0.90g's with the stock Goodyear Eagle 245/50/16 rubber. The top optional engine was the LC9 TPI 305/5.0 liter engine 215hp/275lb/ft.

[XfireZ51]

The 84 Z51 was really a different animal than the others. It really was a track car in terms of suspension.

[PhillipsLT5]

The Marketplace
Virtually unchanged from the previous month(s), the collector car market still seems to be off 30-40%, with no indication it will improve any time soon. This is a great time to find bargains in a 'Buyers Market'. As always, it is more important to be realistic with regard to condition. It's extremely important that you do not over represent the condition of the car, whether you are buying or selling.

Note: We base our 'Marketplace' on Corvettes that have actually 'SOLD', not the many cars that are advertised month after month at unrealistic high prices.

We see it all the time, we get a call from a prospective buyer. They are looking at a 'nice' C5 (for example), advertised online. The owner is "asking" $24K for his 2002 Coupe with 50K miles. While you can buy a 'nice' '08 for that kind of money, you can't fault the seller. He has had this car for years, probably paid $30-$40K for the car years ago and wants to sell this car in order to purchase a newer one, possibly a Corvette. The issue is; He is basing his 'selling' price on other Corvettes similar to his, that he has seen on the internet or in other forms of advertising listed for unrealistic prices. 90 days from now, you can see the same cars, still listed and not sold. Patience is the issue: You can run out, buy the first car you see and find out later you are out $$'s, or take your time, search all the options and find the right car at the 'right' price.

C4 1984-96
C4 pricing remains stagnant, with no indication it will improve any time soon. While the pricing is dictated by the lack of many repair parts, many low mile C4's can be purchased at bargain prices and are excellent values for a driver Corvette. 1984's to '88's are selling in the $1200-$3000 range, while '1989-94's can be bought well under the $6K mark. Just this last week we have seen 2 Coupes with less then 30k miles sell (locally) in the $4500-$6500. It takes a significantly nice, low mile '95-96 to break the $10K barrier.