My last effort

[Mitsumark]

Guys--Is there any other place oil could enter the combustion chamber other than rings,valve seals/stems,PCV system?The car is once again burning oil at an alarming rate to the point where it smokes out the tailpipes at idle pretty good now..It's to the point where it's embarrassing to drive the car..Compression checked out good,PCV system is operating effectively as Plenty of suction is present at the valves, and on both Plenum PCV pipes..Removing the oil cap when running there is no blowby coming out..The car still pulls hard without hesitation..Pulling the plugs with only 300 miles on them show oil on 2 of the passenger side plugs..I've read stories about the header bolt on the passenger side,and also the filters under the cam covers.Are either of these a possibility?My gut is telling me it needs valve seals..If thats the case I will be selling the car for sure..Haibeck wants 9K to rebuild the motor to it's current 368 specs..I know valve seals dont mean a total rebuild but if the motor has to come out then why stop there?I can't justify putting that much coin into it considering it is not a prestine car..Me fixing it myself is out of the question as I don't have the time as of now due to work..Your advice is my last attempt at getting some more suggestions before the car is EBay bound..I love the car but Ive had enough..

[scottfab]

Have you tried going to 10w40 or even 15w50?
This ONLY to measure the impact on consumption.

[Schrade]

Have you tried going to 10w40 or even 15w50?
This ONLY to measure the impact on consumption.

My first thought... What weight oil ARE you using there Mark?

Heavier-weight is less prone to vaporization - that is, IF it's pulling through the CC vent plumbing.

[LGAFF]

Did we check and make sure the IHs are proper for this car?

[PhillipsLT5]

Are the A Mold wheels still available?

[LGAFF]

Is it possible when the car was modified they swapped the wrong IHs and the ones on the car do not have the oil vapor plugs in the IH or the heads are different?

https://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/images/Injector%20Housings.pdf

[USAFPILOT]

so how much for the car with the failing LT5?

[Mitsumark]

Lee-I doubt that's the case as the car ran with no noticeable oil consumption or smoke the first few months of me owning it..As far as oil,I'm running Mobil 1 10W40..It's been 10-20* here in NJ for the last 2 months so I didn't want to step up to a 15/50 or 20/50...Again,if I was an expert I wouldn't be here asking for help..But at the rate it's burning with constant visible smoke there is no way I can be convinced that going from a 10 wt to a 15w is going to solve this..There is oil finding its way into the combustion chambers and plugs are chalky Black(rich) with traces of oil on a few of them just after a few hundred miles..The car doesn't misfire or hesitate..It also has plenty of power until plugs foul out a few hundred miles later..This leads me to believe the problem is in the heads,,not the block..I'm sick as I just put $3K in wheels and tires on this thing..Phillip--If the car goes bye bye,I will decide if they will go with the car,or be sold separate..You have my word they are yours if they are sold to anyone..If I can't get to the bottom of this within the next few days I'm gonna clean the car up,type up a brief description,take some pics and it will be for sale..I bought the car to enjoy it and have spent more time monkeying with it..I'm mentally exhausted as of now and I'm really leaning toward getting rid of it..If that's what I decide I will offer it up here first..If there is no interest then it will be Fleabay..

[Mitsumark]

Fellas- here is a vid just shot of it running in my driveway..Although the smoke looks like condensation smoke it has a much more Blue tint to it in person..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Fh2sBQdzg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT6O8i6p0x0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Blue Flame Restorations]

It would be worth the effort to take it to Pete or Marc for a professional evaluation and repair before selling it.

[Kevin]

It would be worth the effort to take it to Pete or Marc for a professional evaluation and repair before selling it.

not sure it's worth dragging it across the country and spending maybe tens of thousands in repairs honestly.

[Mitsumark]

My point exactly^



I wish it were that simple..Beleive me I was already looking into what trip would be shorter Haibeck or SGC..They are both 14+ hrs away..From what I'm understanding,if it were valve seals they can't be done on this particular motor without pulling it out of the car correct?That's gotta be a few grand alone if I'm paying someone..Point is if the motor has to be pulled,it would make more sense to me to fully rebuild if the motor is questionable..If I had the time I would attempt it myself..I'm very sure there are multiple guys on this forum that would fix this in no time if it turns out it needs valve seals..Just out of curiosity,what's Pete get for a rebuild?

[Kevin]

Fellas- here is a vid just shot of it running in my driveway..Although the smoke looks like condensation smoke it has a much more Blue tint to it in person..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Fh2sBQdzg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT6O8i6p0x0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

it maybe the camera used but something doesn't sound right

[Mitsumark]

Kevin-It's the Fidanza flywheel you hear..It's amplified by the camera..It's not as loud in person..The motor has no bad noise in it..Check it out¥¥¥

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gBpRoCVa7Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Kevin]

knew I heard something. Hope you figure out what to do. really annoying to have something wrong with your car and not be able to fix it

[GOLDCYLON]

Kevin-It's the Fidanza flywheel you hear..It's amplified by the camera..It's not as loud in person..The motor has no bad noise in it..Check it out¥¥¥

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gBpRoCVa7Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player


yep thats a Fidanza AKA the Rock Crusher

Could be valve stem seals and/or rings. How many miles on the motor?

You are pulling the dipstick and confirming mega oil consumpton right? Just ruleing out injectors dumping fuel

[Kevin]

another question, who did the 368 conversion?

[Mitsumark]

As stated in previous threads..Vette Docs..Car was built in 2003..Yes..Car is burning about 1/2 qt in a couple hundred miles according to dipstick and smoke.Injectors are brand new FIC stainless units..Oil/Crankcase has absolutely no smell of fuel at all.However it could be totally thinned out as the car was running all winter in 20dg weather and a ton of warmup/idle time..I may do a Castrol.Syntec 20/50 oil change and see what I get..I doubt that's the answer though..

Gold-Car had 200+ compression in every slug..Still possible rings?

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Could be a simple fix. You never know???? Hope so.

[Z06scentair]

Mark,

Do you happen to know the sizes and backspacing on the TT wheels on your car?

[GOLDCYLON]

As stated in previous threads..Vette Docs..Car was built in 2003..Yes..Car is burning about 1/2 qt in a couple hundred miles according to dipstick and smoke.Injectors are brand new FIC stainless units..Oil/Crankcase has absolutely no smell of fuel at all.However it could be totally thinned out as the car was running all winter in 20dg weather and a ton of warmup/idle time..I may do a Castrol.Syntec 20/50 oil change and see what I get..I doubt that's the answer though..

Gold-Car had 200+ compression in every slug..Still possible rings?

Im thinking its the valve seals. how many miles on the motor since rebuild ?

Yep motor needs to come out. easiest way since timing has to be reset etc

[Mitsumark]

Just replied to you in the for sale section..If you give me a couple days,I could dig up the receipt with the specs..When I bought mine just recently,,the fronts are readily available on EBay..Same exact ones for Trans Am/Camaro..The rears I had custom made from ARE as ZR1 offsets were discontinued long ago and no supplier anywhere had left over stock...They made my rears for $300 each..

[Z06scentair]

Just replied to you in the for sale section..If you give me a couple days,I could dig up the receipt with the specs..When I bought mine just recently,,the fronts are readily available on EBay..Same exact ones for Trans Am/Camaro..The rears I had custom made from ARE as ZR1 offsets were discontinued long ago and no supplier anywhere had left over stock...They made my rears for $300 each..

Thank you.

What kind of advice have you gotten from Marc or Arron on the oil consumption?

[Mitsumark]

Haven't spoken to either of them on consumption..Only spoken to Marc on tuning issues...I think it's safe to assume that constant tailpipe smoke is not normal..

[Z06scentair]

Haven't spoken to either of them on consumption..Only spoken to Marc on tuning issues...I think it's safe to assume that constant tailpipe smoke is not normal..

Not normal for sure....something bad wrong? Not convinced, I'm leaning heavily on the side of valve seals.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Almost sounds like it has too much pressure and can't breathe.

[Z06scentair]

Almost sounds like it has too much pressure and can't breathe.

That's a possibility... but why two cylinders would be oiling the plugs has me corn-fused

[Mitsumark]

As far as I'm concerned if the the motor needs to come out,,that's bad..If I were to have it pulled,believe me it would get torn down and fully rebuilt..I did speak to Marc on rebuilding as a worse case scenario..He wants 9K to fully rebuild to 368 specs..That's even using my liners and rods..Then another $800 to dyno tune it..Then whatever other problems he may find..On top of that its probably gonna cost an additional $1500 to get it there,return home,then back again to get it..I love the car..But not that much...


To much pressure,can't breath?..What kind of pressure?..here's my take..It can't be too much fuel..Car has no gas in crankcase,starts easily...Car has strong compression and plenty of pulling power,no blowby from oil cap or dipstick..Rings seem good..Only thing left is PCV which I triple checked for obstruction in every tube..Non found..That only leaves valve seals...

[XfireZ51]

That's a possibility... but why two cylinders would be oiling the plugs has me corn-fused

Are they next to each other? What modification had been to this motor is anything?

[Z06scentair]

As far as I'm concerned if the the motor needs to come out,,that's bad..If I were to have it pulled,believe me it would get torn down and fully rebuilt..I did speak to Marc on rebuilding as a worse case scenario..He wants 9K to fully rebuild to 368 specs..That's even using my liners and rods..Then another $800 to dyno tune it..Then whatever other problems he may find..On top of that its probably gonna cost an additional $1500 to get it there,return home,then back again to get it..I love the car..But not that much...

Im certainly no LT5 expert but a broken ring or big problem would be causing drivability issues one would think.

It may be worth your while to call SGC and see what they recommend.

[Mitsumark]

Yes..The 2 oily plugs are on the passenger side last 2(nearest radiator)..Just out of curiosity,,how much of a b1tch is it to get the cam covers off?It looks like a pain..I'd love to see what those filters look like,that is if there's anything left..I pulled those pipes with the car running..They had no vac or pressure in either direction..Don't know if that is significant..

[scottfab]

Yes..The 2 oily plugs are on the passenger side last 2(nearest radiator)..Just out of curiosity,,how much of a b1tch is it to get the cam covers off?It looks like a pain..I'd love to see what those filters look like,that is if there's anything left..I pulled those pipes with the car running..They had no vac or pressure in either direction..Don't know if that is significant..

You should feel something if you rev the engine.
Use the cruise control vacuum actuator just above the battery to rev.

[XfireZ51]

Yes..The 2 oily plugs are on the passenger side last 2(nearest radiator)..Just out of curiosity,,how much of a b1tch is it to get the cam covers off?It looks like a pain..I'd love to see what those filters look like,that is if there's anything left..I pulled those pipes with the car running..They had no vac or pressure in either direction..Don't know if that is significant..

So #2 and 4. Both of which bracket the oil vent. Just interesting and coincidental? The passenger side cam cover is the easier of the two to remove.
It so happens, I took mine off a few years ago chasing an oil leak and a smell of oil when I would go WOT. ANYTHING BELOW THAT was no issue. I replaced the oil vent filter, which was Scotchbrite, w filters from Marc Haibeck. You may want to check the spark plug cam cover seals also. Once I did that, oil smell at WOT went away and no more oil spotting.

[edram454]

Im sorry to hear of this terrible problem. If my car had this problem I would be frantic and depressed so lets show some compassion for this man and not ask about his wheels yet. He hasnt sold the car yet and he probably doesnt want too but depending on the engine trouble he might have too. I have nothing to offer as far as knowledge on this one only that by the youtube video it is not normal at all. I would probably take it to Mr. Haibeck or Aaron Scott to check things out. Maybe it is an inexpensive fix?? Good luck my friend.

ed ramos #3028

[Mitsumark]

You should feel something if you rev the engine.
Use the cruise control vacuum actuator just above the battery to rev..

If you can see it, notice the throttle cover is removed when I'm manually revving the engine..I removed it for easier access when checking for vac under throttle..I did pull the passenger side cam tube(tube on top of where filter resides)There was no vac there at all..I pulled off all PCV plumbing piece by piece..Can't find any obstructions..Plenum was also just off to remove secondaries..Not a single trace of oil around breather box or anywhere else in the valley..Can't say the same for the plenum..Oil was present but not anything I didn't expect from reading on here..Only my threads make it to page 4 in one day lol...

[LantanaTX]

Typically, if valve seals are bad you get a lot of smoke at start up after sitting a while, like overnight. After start up, smoke decreases. Bad rings will show smoke increase as you get on it. If compression is good and you aren't getting a ton of smoke at start up which clears up somewhat after warning up, I would be looking at the crankcase ventilation, maybe even adding a catch can if that is possible on these engines. Adding a catch can will keep oil from entering the intake and then if you are still blowing smoke you know it is a more serious engine issue.

[Hog]

maybe it needs an Italian tune up? Sitting around and being idled in the cold all Winter isnt helping. I would go burn off all that Winter buildup abd get the engine hot an see how it behaves then.
It would be nice to watch the tailpipes during a WOT acceleration pass from an other car. following the Z.

Leakdown test could be beneficial. Proper compression tester technique will determine if rings or valves are an issue. Dry 1st, then wet.

[Dynomite]

PCV system is operating effectively as Plenty of suction is present at the valves, and on both Plenum PCV pipes..Removing the oil cap when running there is no blowby coming out.

I see in another thread you recently replaced the PCV Valves (CV913C & CV769C)....so this may be a non issue :dontknow:

What is the history of this oil burning issue??
Sounds like this oil burning issue did not progress over a driving period of say 50K miles but over a driving period of a few hundred miles or less and if that is the case.....you can eliminate all sorts of potential mechanical issues.

Plenty of suction present at the PCV valves is not an indication of a properly working PCV system

POSITIVE CRANKCASE VENTILATION
PCV System TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=184606)
PCV valves sources TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=135621)
MAP Hose TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=142052)
PCV connector & MAP sensor (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=73915 )
PCV system (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=92516 )
PCV source (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=87269 )
Crankcase Ventilation (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=105117 )
PCV and Cam Cover Vents (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=135441)
Difference between 90' and 91' heads (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=102911)
Cam cover vent material (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=106552)
Cam cover SS vent material (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=128054)

[Racinfan83]

I have no technical answers for you here - but I do know that Marc Haibeck works late in the evenings. As in like into the night. I would suggest maybe e-mailing the link to the thread/threads to him - and then giving him a call later in the evening. zr1specialist.com

[GOLDCYLON]

After rereading through all this suggest checking your injector housing gaskets. I think you may find a crack in the gasket or perhaps they are not tight. Either way thats my final "Easy" thought on oil consumption. GC

[Mitsumark]

Re: My last effort
maybe it needs an Italian tune up? Sitting around and being idled in the cold all Winter isnt helping. I would go burn off all that Winter buildup abd get the engine hot an see how it behaves then.
It would be nice to watch the tailpipes during a WOT acceleration pass from an other car. following the Z.

Believe me..It's had frequent Italian tuneups..When I said a lot of idling it didn't mean just to start it and let it run..I was daily driving this car on all dry days..Just have a phobia about warming up my cars thourally in extremely cold temps like we've had here in NJ..

Dyno- I went through every one of those threads that you posted from the archives..I'm positive my PCV hooked up correctly and functioning as it should.I triple checked every aspect of it..I Even replaced 2 new sets of PCV valves twice within 200 miles just to be sure I didn't get a defect..Now,,I was aware that the exhaust smoke could be coming from the cam cover filters being missing or damaged, and also the valve seals..What I did not know before reading your archives,and just mentioned by Gold that it could be coming from a the IH gaskets..I just had the plenum off this week to remove the secondaries..Although I didn't remove the IHs I was expecting to see some oil present in the valley..Not a trace around the Breather box or the bases of the IHs..She was oil free except maybe a teaspoon in the plenum..So I guess it's possible the IH gaskets could be leaking internally and not externally?The car is smoking as show in the videos without any load..Smoke increases with throttle..The smoke only comes when fully warmed up..No smoke cold for the first 15 min..

[LantanaTX]

If no smoke on start up for the first 15 minutes, I highly doubt it is bad seals.

[Pete]

You don't have to remove cam covers to replace the sponge in them just to see if it stops smoking, just put a in line filter
First check the cam cover lines for oil some is ok if they are loaded dripping then put a in line filter.

Pete

[Mitsumark]

Ahh..Pete the man..Heard alot about you..On my way home to from work now to do what you suggested with the cam filter tubes.Also gonna try a 20/50 oil change..Man how I wish you were local..Im fighting with myself on driving this thing out to you or Marc and taking a Greyhound home..You do full rebuilds?If so PM me your number..Id like to discuss my options if I cant figure it out,and if its worth fixing if I cant..

[FU]

Mark.....I'm out of Long Island and have made the trip often. The Cheecago gentlemen take care of you. Mine's out there right now getting a tweek done here and there. Either way it's cheaper to fly. Shipping is 600 from LI. Should be cheaper from NJ. I should be flying there within the next month give or take, and driving back. Can I be of any help ? Where in NJ are you ?

[PhillipsLT5]

Marc's BBQ 4/27 + Deep Dish Pizza & White Castle Burgers, and your car fixed
All in 1 stop shop Cheecago

[Mitsumark]

Ok guys..Came home today and this is what I did..Changed oil with Castrol Syntec Synthetic 20W50..Old oil was clean,had no contaminants that I could see,,and no fuel smell present in oil at all..Then proceeded to start the car..With it running I removed each side of the cam tubes..I placed my finger over the tubes and did not feel any vacuum or blowing in either direction..That was with and without throttle.Also no oil present at all in those tubes..They were dry..Don't know if that is normal but that's what I got..Lastly I proceeded to re-install my catch can as I removed it last week to do more troubleshooting..After all proceedures today the car still smokes at idle just like before..No more,no less..Again took it out and got on her pretty good..Still pulls hard without any hesitation..The only very last thing I can think of is the header bolt on the passenger side I've read about..At this point I'm so sick and disgusted after the initial cost of the car,all the additional cash I put into it, and really growing attached to the car..I honestly think my best most rational option is to cut my losses at this point and let her go..I guess ZR1 ownership was not in my cards and I'm in way over my head..I'm gonna be honest guys,,I'm gonna put it out there and say I will take 10K on the car as it sits.I paid quite a bit more than that not even a yr ago and sunk another 4K more into it in that time..It's gonna be one of those cases where a much more knowledgable LT5 guy is gonna get it and figure it out a a few hrs,,or could go the other way and be something more serious..I know for sure though I am done at this point..Below are a few pics as it sits filthy and all as it has been sitting in my driveway unwashed for 3 weeks..It cleans up much nicer but these are just to give an idea of what I have..This weekend I will be cleaning her up very nicely,taking some detailed pics and writing a more thorough description..I will officially post it here for sale and give it a week..If there is no interest it will hit the Bay..Price will be a very FIRM 10K though and I will NOT part it out..In the short time I've been here I've been greatly appreciative of the help I've gotten from the community..Members have went out of there way for me with advice and even calling me on the phone to help..I hope one day I can return with an even better Z than I have if money permits..Dirty pics in a few..

[LantanaTX]

Pics?

[Racinfan83]

Marc's BBQ 4/27 + Deep Dish Pizza & White Castle Burgers, and your car fixed
All in 1 stop shop Cheecago

I am gonna try to run up there for that deal. Just don't tell the wife about the White Castles or we won't go. She HATES those things.. (I LOVE em)

The only very last thing I can think of is the header bolt on the passenger side I've read about..

Mine leaks from that header stud - Marc saw it when I had the car up there last fall. I didn't have time or $ to get it taken care of then. But that won't cause the car to smoke out of the exhaust pipe - it makes smoke off the side of the engine under the hood. Mine does that. Don't think it's your problem...

[Mitsumark]

A few pics..Car hasnt been washed in 3 weeks...

[Dynomite]

At this point I'm so sick and disgusted after the initial cost of the car,all the additional cash I put into it, and really growing attached to the car..I honestly think my best most rational option is to cut my losses at this point and let her go..I guess ZR1 ownership was not in my cards and I'm in way over my head..I'm gonna be honest guys,,I'm gonna put it out there and say I will take 10K on the car as it sits

Just hang on.....there ought to be someone near by that can come over and take a look. How many miles on the car/engine?

What are the modifications?


I say hang on so someone on this Forum can take a look at the engine for ya.

[Mitsumark]

Car has 75K on it..Motor only has about 13-14K give or take..A few of you have PMed me asking for specifics on the car..Again I will try and write up a more detailed description this weekend.The basics are

91ZR1 with 75K
Black/Black
Vette Docs built 368 w forged rods,JE Pistons,Portwork(Comes w 458HP Dyno Sheet 2003)
Jeal Intake cams
Fidanza Flywheel w Carolina Clutch (Stage 2)
Watson Thermal Coated Headers into B&B Triflow catless exhaust
Large Fluidyne Radiator with Large oil cooler upgrade(stacked)w Braided Hoses & AN Fittings
Samco Radiator Hoses
FIC Stainless Injectors
MSD coils w Magnecore 9mm wires
Moroso Steel Billet Catch Can
Marc Haibeck EPROM
DRM/Bilstein Coilovers
Z06/Wildwood front Brake Conversion
Torque Thrust 2 Wheels w Nitto 555 (Brand New Combo)
Pioneer Indash DVD/IPOD player w Pioneer door/Hatch speakers..

I have all documentation for upgrades..

Dyno- I want to keep it so bad..There's nobody around me though..

[Karl]

If you sell the Z, are you going to buy another sports car?

[Mitsumark]

When This car came into my possession last year,,It didn't burn a drop of oil..I daily drove it for a few months and it ran like a top and no oil usage..Believe it or not,this literally started with me changing the chip and relocating the IAT sensor to the front bumper..That very day the car started to smoke a bit..Maybe coincidence?I don't know..I tried backtracking by moving back the sensor,,but the original chip was written over..When the oil burning got bad enough to foul a couple plugs?I thought it was weird that the plugs had oil not only on the insulator/electrode,,but oil on the thread of the plug(opposite of firing end) Oil is far enough up the thread that I was thinking maybe it just needs a few spark plug seals..I looked into what I needed to do to pull the covers and found out I have to remove the seat,,the brake booster..After weeks of aggravation I just don't have the mental energy to do it..So it is possible that something major is wrong,could be something as simple as IH gaskets or spark plug seals..,But like a previous poster said.. I would think there would be some kind of major drivability problem..This car is a rocket..Step on the gas and hold on because she gets squirrelly real easy..When I bought this car I was originally looking for an LT4 car as they are a lot less complex..I've read many stories ahead of time about people wanting a ZR1, but wouldn't buy one due to the lack of knowledgable wrenches that know them well..It seems they are all congregated in Chicago..Now I understand as there isn't anybody here in NY/NJ that really works on these cars and I'm stuck with a problem I can't figure out..10-15 yrs ago I woulda pulled this thing is the garage, yanked it apart without hesitation, figured out the problem and fixed it myself..However fast forward to now with me being self employed,having a little boy,life is very hectic and I know longer have the desire to spend what little time I have working on a car..This was a mistake on my part as I shoulda thought this out before I jumped in..

Pushrod-Don't know what I'm gonna get..I've always owned a toy..Had many Porsches and a highly modded Mitsus..But again I spent many hrs working on them over the years..Then it was fun..Not anymore..I just may buy myself a 08-2010 Maxima..My wife has one and I love the car..I must be getting old:)

[Karl]

I would let the car sit for awhile until it gets off your mind and the negative emotions towards the car go away. It just seems odd that the oil burning stopped momentarily after installing a oil catch can but then the oil burning came back.

Seems like if it were valve seals or something mechanical it would have kept burning oil and not stopped momentarily.

Good luck!

[chriskinzel]

Mark,
Your pain is felt by me and others. I also live a long way from help (SLC, UT) and know how frustrating this can feel. I have had many issues that the brotherhood have helped me with, but if the problem is ever inside the motor I am done as well. We will all miss hearing of your success in fixing the problem, as I know that you could it you had the time. I personally know that sometimes you have to cut your losses and get out. I wish you all the best in finding your next 'toy'.

Good luck
Chris

[Kevin]

I would let the car sit for awhile until it gets off your mind and the negative emotions towards the car go away. It just seems odd that the oil burning stopped momentarily after installing a oil catch can but then the oil burning came back.

Seems like if it were valve seals or something mechanical it would have kept burning oil and not stopped momentarily.

Good luck!
Not sure it works that way. I put mine away early last year and when I think about getting it out I go between, Yes, can't wait to drive it! and ****, it's still broken.

[Mr Blue]

Not sure it works that way. I put mine away early last year and when I think about getting it out I go between, Yes, can't wait to drive it! and ****, it's still broken.

Kevin
What issues are you having with your Z?? All the more reason to get an owners' group together for our area! We need to help each other.

Not to divert attention from Mitzumark's issues. I sincerely hope neither of you abandon ZR-1 ownership, but would understand that decision. Been over that barrel before.

David

[Kevin]

Kevin
What issues are you having with your Z?? All the more reason to get an owners' group together for our area! We need to help each other.

Not to divert attention from Mitzumark's issues. I sincerely hope neither of you abandon ZR-1 ownership, but would understand that decision. Been over that barrel before.

David

I'm going to PM you so we can keep this thread on track :)

[scottfab]

When This car came into my possession last year,,It didn't burn a drop of oil..I daily drove it for a few months and it ran like a top and no oil usage..Believe it or not,this literally started with me changing the chip and relocating the IAT sensor to the front bumper..That very day the car started to smoke a bit..Maybe coincidence?I don't know


Really sorry to hear. Mods can go wrong weather related to the smoking issue or not.

..I tried backtracking by moving back the sensor,,but the original chip was written over..


Maybe the original tune had an undocumented and proprietary tweak that is now missing.


...snip...

[Mitsumark]

Drove it to work today..Smoke was down to much less than yesterday..But still present..It's weird..I can stand by the tailpipes and at times there is no smoke at all for 1-2 minutes..Then it's like the car burps and a few smoke puffs will come out..I swear with the lumpy idle and the Blue smoke occasionally,,I honestly think it could be something just throwing everything outta wack(AFRs)..Today I noticed the smoke was much more Grey and every so often it would turn Blue..It's like it's running pig rich and washing down the cylinder walls..What's throwing me off is I can't smell any fuel in the oil at all..I don't know..It was nice to drive it today..Had quite a few looks from some dudes as the car sounds menacing in person..Also had a chick in the next car over give me a dirty look and roll up her car window..I'm thinking she didn't appreciate the stinky exhaust..I don't blame her..It does stink

[Karl]

Not sure it works that way. I put mine away early last year and when I think about getting it out I go between, Yes, can't wait to drive it! and ****, it's still broken.


It can work how ever you want it to work. Just takes some ambition to get there.

If you want to get your car fixed you can get it fixed. It may take some time but ultimately it can be done. If not, jump ship and sell it.

[Kevin]

It can work how ever you want it to work. Just takes some ambition to get there.

If you want to get your car fixed you can get it fixed. It may take some time but ultimately it can be done. If not, jump ship and sell it.

not everyone is willing to put in the....lets call it dedication.....it takes to own one of these

[secondchance]

Drove it to work today..Smoke was down to much less than yesterday..But still present..It's weird..I can stand by the tailpipes and at times there is no smoke at all for 1-2 minutes..Then it's like the car burps and a few smoke puffs will come out..I swear with the lumpy idle and the Blue smoke occasionally,,I honestly think it could be something just throwing everything outta wack(AFRs)..Today I noticed the smoke was much more Grey and every so often it would turn Blue..It's like it's running pig rich and washing down the cylinder walls..What's throwing me off is I can't smell any fuel in the oil at all..I don't know..It was nice to drive it today..Had quite a few looks from some dudes as the car sounds menacing in person..Also had a chick in the next car over give me a dirty look and roll up her car window..I'm thinking she didn't appreciate the stinky exhaust..I don't blame her..It does stink

Mitsumark,

I sense that you are about to throw in the towel. I can only imagine the frustration you must be feeling. I chased pre-ignition rattling for 5-6 years and eventually tracked it down to bad injectors. In your case, I am no LT5 guru but I can't help but think something is forcing or allowing oil into the combustion chamber.
If I was in this situation, I would pour a can of BG K44 into the gas tank when near empty and add about 10 gallons of gas then drive revving up to perhaps 3,500 to 4,000 rpm before shifting. Please note that this is what I would do. BG K44 is a fuel system/combustion chamber cleaner and hope would be, if piston rings are somehow sticking due to carbon deposit, fuel additive/carbon deposit cleaner would un-stick the ring.
Like I said, I may be wrong but at less then $25 per bottle, worth a try...
Also, notice any coolant loss? Or notice contaminants in the coolant?
Check your oil dip stick. Is it pushed up? If so, sign of pressure build in the crankcase.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Without re-reading the previous posts....Did you put the old chip back in and evaluate the oil issue?

[-=Jeff=-]

Without re-reading the previous posts....Did you put the old chip back in and evaluate the oil issue?

He can't I believe it was over written with the new stuff

[XfireZ51]

Where did the chip come from? Was it supposed to allow for moving the IAT?
If you move the IAT forward, and if the calibration does not compensate for that, the ECM will always see a lower Intake Air Temp causing it to richen the mixture. Frankly I think you're giving up too easily IMO. I would definitely look at unbolting the IHs. Pretty easy and easy to put back together.

[scottfab]

He can't I believe it was over written with the new stuff

Yes, I think that is what he wrote. If it were a stock displacement and configuration LT5 then a standard chip as issued from GM would work as a baseline for isolating the issue. As it is someone will need to spend the time and/or $ to get to the bottom of the smoke issue.
My gut says it ain't the chip though. Something happened during one of the mods such as has been mentioned, a void in a gasket or ??????

Mark, have you tried running the car with the oil at the ADD line of the dipstick?
That is, wait overnight and check the oil. Is it at the ADD line?
If so,. go for a drive, see if it burns oil at the same rate.
I say this because that is what I do and it lowered consumption drastically. I only add when the level goes below the line.

I just remembered this. Some burning on my car is normal since it is a 90 and does not have exhaust valve seals (by design). By running ~1qt low the consumption is lowered. On average I go through a qt every four tank fills IF there has
been a lot of WOT.

[G8nightman]

Where in NJ are you? Do you want to sell the car?

[LGAFF]

Dominic you have a copy of my chip from the 91 368 that I have.....this is the same chip he is running. I thought he called you

[Mitsumark]

Yes..I did try to run the oil right at the add mark..It didn't help..To answer a couple of the above questions..Yes the current chip is a Haibeck canned tune for my mods and IAT relocation..I spoke to Marc asking if he thought maybe something needed tweaking and he said his tune has no effect at idle and even below 50% throttle....I took that as the stock parameters are left alone until the throttle is more than 50%..Now remember that the majority of smoke it at idle..It does throw out some smoke under heavy throttle but it isn't nothing I haven't seen when dropping the hammer on most high power cars..My concern is not the smoke under load..It shouldn't be smoking at idle..This is exactly what goes on in sequence..Car starts up cold,no smoke at all..Once warm it will start to smoke at idle..Upon acceleration it has plenty of power,no hesitation..Coasting down to stop,once in neutral the motor will start to hunt from 400-1200 RPM and sometimes even feels like its gonna stall but doesn't..During this hunting it feels like the car is choking on fuel and smoke smells strong like fuel/oil mix..Once fully stopped the idle smooths out..When I told Marc the plugs keep fouling and I think it's running way rich,he responded with the following..

> > What is the idle speed when the engine hot? It should be 750 rpm. The calibration is designed for a stock manifold vacuum of 40 kpa. You should measure the manifold vacuum. If it is over 50 kpa, the MAP sensor will add so much fuel that the oxygen sensors can't control it and the engine will run rich for fuel at idle and under 2000 rpm.
>> >
>> > If you use a data scanner to read the manifold vacuum, also record the Block and Integrator fuel trims for each bank and let me know.

Now I don't have the diagnostic tools to do this,nor do I even know what some of it means..I'm guessing it has to due with Idle counts,AFR,ect..

Lee-I didn't call Dominic as I didn't want to spend money on another chip as I'm not sure if that's even the problem..I borrowed a stock chip from Dave Johnson(Thanks Dave) and the hunting still pursued, smoke was much less but still present..Granted this was for a bone stock 91 350 car..Car also had no gonads with the stocker..

As far as selling it,,I really don't want to but I think if someone came to me with cash money right now,I'd probably let her go..The only way this car will ever run correctly is if it finds it's way to Chicago because there is no one around here and I honestly don't want to touch it anymore...Hey Frank--When exactly are you going out there?Im brainstorming..

[Mitsumark]

Guys I just thought of something..Is it possible that the very first chip the car was built with(B Kirchoffer)was tuned to always run open loop?Is that possible?Hmm..No smoke when cold,no surging,better idle...Seems and soon as the car goes closed loop the smoke and surging starts...I also remember the RPM was set to 1000RPM with the original Kirchoffer chip for better idle due to Jeal cams and to cut down on flywheel noise..I wonder if Vette Docs tampered with the TB screw to match the chip calibration...I'm now running a Haibeck chip with 750RPM idle but haven't touched the idle screw..Sounds confusing but does anyone understand where I'm going with this?

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Yes. Your theory "may" have validity??


I only see two variables that you changed prior to the issue besides your plenum pull. I would change them back one at a time and evaluate with each change.

If those two variables do not prove to be at fault, I'd pull the plenum again and do a thorough inspection, including the gaskets for damage.

[mike100]

Maybe the 02 sensor is broke and sending garbage values to the ECM.

[Mitsumark]

02s are brand new..As of 900 miles ago..With all the smok she's been blowing wouldn't be surprised if they are ruined already..

[Pete]

Guys I just thought of something..Is it possible that the very first chip the car was built with(B Kirchoffer)was tuned to always run open loop?Is that possible?Hmm..No smoke when cold,no surging,better idle...Seems and soon as the car goes closed loop the smoke and surging starts...I also remember the RPM was set to 1000RPM with the original Kirchoffer chip for better idle due to Jeal cams and to cut down on flywheel noise..I wonder if Vette Docs tampered with the TB screw to match the chip calibration...I'm now running a Haibeck chip with 750RPM idle but haven't touched the idle screw..Sounds confusing but does anyone understand where I'm going with this?



If the issue is/was fuel closed loop would have less smoke since the ECM would have some control,if oil issue is something else like guides/seal,rings etc, then closed or open would not make a difference.

On the Idle you are right if the TB screw is adjusted for 1000 rpm and the chip is programed for 750 this will cause what you are experiencing.
Idle should not effect oil issue.

Pete

[XfireZ51]

Guys I just thought of something..Is it possible that the very first chip the car was built with(B Kirchoffer)was tuned to always run open loop?Is that possible?Hmm..No smoke when cold,no surging,better idle...Seems and soon as the car goes closed loop the smoke and surging starts...I also remember the RPM was set to 1000RPM with the original Kirchoffer chip for better idle due to Jeal cams and to cut down on flywheel noise..I wonder if Vette Docs tampered with the TB screw to match the chip calibration...I'm now running a Haibeck chip with 750RPM idle but haven't touched the idle screw..Sounds confusing but does anyone understand where I'm going with this?

The reason tuners use Open Loop w larger cams is because they don't deal w the cam overlap and how that affects the O2 sensor readings. The ECM thinks the motor is running lean due to the fresh air going past the O2 sensor. It's an issue at idle but generally not anywhere else. If the ECM IS "trying" to get to a 750rpm idle(depending on the cams probably not going to run very well) it will attempt to do that but likely invoke the stall saver as the engine begins to falter.
If the stall saver values haven't been changed, they can produce wild swings on a cammed motor since they were meant for stock cams.
Do you KNOW if VD did adjust the Min Air settings? otherwise the cal could just have had idle set for 1000rpm.

[Mitsumark]

The more and more that I think about it, the more I think this could be a simple tuning issue..

Xfire..I don't know if they did the min air adjustment..Ive heard the term here before..Also what does that entail?Car was built sometime in 03 and it states on the build sheet"customer must return after break in for further tuning"..Don't know if the original owner ever returned as I don't have anything in my documents that says he did return..I am sure that after the build the old owner trailered this thing around the states and drove the car in road race events which tells me there were no problems after his build.Car was raced from tracks in Connecticut and as far as Vegas .There were no problems after I got it either..I drove it home from Virginia to NJ (4hrs) without a single hiccup..As stated in another thread,,I hated the 1000RPM idle as getting out of 1st was a little difficult with the aggressive clutch in the car,,it was drinking gas to feed the 1000RPM idle,,and lastly it was obnoxiously loud sitting in traffic..Once I removed the tune and sent it out with the request of a lower RPM along with a list of my mods,installed it and the car went bonkers..Last week I pulled the plenum to check for oil and vac leaks and wound up yankin the secondary stuff,installing new MSD coils and Magnecore wires..Today I have to ship the chip back to Marc for him to recalibrate for no secondary's...I'm gonna also request he bumps the idle back up to 1K and see what I get...It is very possible that this is all something simple..Problem is I don't have the diagnostic tools or the know how to isolate the problem..

[FU]

Pull the chip and make sure that the pins are all lined up correctly.
Again, where are you in NJ ???

[LGAFF]

Send you r address to me i will send you my chip

[Mitsumark]

Frank..Chip has been in and out a few times..All pins are straight and intact..Im smack in the middle of NJ..S.Plainfield 07080..

Lee..Sending u a PM now..

[John Boothby]

I havn't read every post here, but have you done a compression check on the two cylinders that have signs of oil? Maybe it is just a stuck ring or something simple.

It may also just be some oil getting into the exhaust system. You say that it only smokes when warmed up? I would think that if oil was getting into the combustion chamber, it would smoke at start up.

Just think'n.

[FU]

Ok....did you pull the plenum ? Again check for bent pins on the connectors.
I mean no offense here. It's just that something wasn't done properly somewhere. Think about it. The engine was fine before. Go back over what was done to the car. It's an easy job. When it's apart post up.

Don't give up.

These LT5's aren't prone to breakage. Unless you missed a gear or twenty.

OH and one more thing. John B. is right , it is something simple.

[youngrm]

To op, if possible go ahead and have it rebuilt.

I brought a '95 with exactly the same VD's set up you have. Like yours it
Ran fine for a couple months...then problems. Like you a chased all the usual
Suspects with minimal success, proceeding your thought process to the same
Point of getting rid of the car!
Unfortunately for me, "one last drive" resulted in the Big Bang! Block, cams,
Crank all gone...car sitting at Corey Hendersons since...even he can't figure
What happened!
Anyways food for thought before you follow me done THAT road!

[LGAFF]

Shipped the chip, if it works, I will either need it back and I can get one burned or we can trade chips. I have a 91 Vette Doctors 368 I am currently working on and will need a 91 chip

[5ABI VT]

If it were an idle issue would it not affect all the cylinders ? If only 2 cylinders are showing signs of oil I would focus on those 2. Have you changed those plugs yet? Double check the part number etc for heat range? I would swap in some cheap copper plugs and go for a blast for an hour keeping the rpms up and bring her home and shut her off and then pull the plugs when cold to get a better idea on the fouling.

I feel guilty offering to snatch that car from you :).. but I hope you get it fixed. My wife is mad enough I bought a second c4 hell Id love to make it 3 !!!

[Mitsumark]

Lee..Your the man.No problem and I will let you know the outcome as I will install it as soon as it arrives...I know Im probably starting to drive some of you crazy by now..The more I tinker with the car the more Im starting to think its not actually burning oil.but washing down the cylinder walls with an overly rich mixture due to something being out of whack..Today I tried to really take notice of the pattern and it seems most of the smoke comes as the car is hunting and feels like its gonna die..My theory is with the idle hunting,the computer senses a stall coming and starts adding more fuel into the mix to keep it going..When it does this I think it dumps so much fuel for a moment that it then washes the oil off the cylinder walls and gets burned out the exhaust hence the Blue smoke..Just to verify for some of the recent questions..Yes..Did compression check..Numbers were in the 250s if I remember on all cylinders..Double and triple checked PCV system and it is working as it should and air tight..Changed spark plugs 3 times with numerous heat ranges..All NGK plugs with 2 of them being recommended by Heibeck..Only pulled the plenum once but made 100% certain I connected the IGN box harness very carefully.It went in smooth without a problem..Replaced plenum gaskets with Jerrys thicker units and checked for leaks afterwords..Non found..Entire vac system is air tight..Car runs exactly the way it did before I pulled the plenum..Just for the record guys,,Im praying that either Lee's chip or my revised Heibeck chip helps me get closer to solving this..I have the towel in my hand and Im about to throw..Gave her a 10 min quick wash today and it made me sick looking at it and imagining selling it..With all the neglect its been getting I for got how pretty the car is..

[LGAFF]

Remember our first conversation about cams and running a chip not set up for it....I started my 90 with cams with a chip not set up for it....could barely drive it. Eyes burning from fuel, etc

[efnfast]

I'm kinda proud of the guys on this forum.
I'm no expert, but I believe this is going to turn out to be something simple.
Somebody could steal this car for 10K, fix it for nothing, and sell it for 20.
Hang in there Mark.

[Paul Workman]

Ah, boy. I know how you feel. Been there a couple times at different times myself! But, as Pete told me, once it is back the way you want it and you whack it, you'll forget all the frustration and fall in love all over again. DAYAM IF HE WASN'T RIGHT (as he usually is:dancing)

[Mitsumark]

Lee-Came home today to find your chip in the mail..Weather is supposed to be pretty foul here in NJ tomorrow but I'll have it in the car by Wed..I'll drive around for a week with it and keep you updated on what I get..

Paul- I "whack it now" and love every minute of it..The car doesn't have a problem moving...Just smoking and eatin NGK TR551X plugs after a few hundred miles..They don't come cheap..I recently put some cheap copper Autolites in until I figure it out..Pete was nice enough to send me his #..I'm really hoping I can hold out on calling him as that means I can't get to the bottom of it..Selling it is still on the table if I can't fix it..I'm gonna drive around with Lee's chip for a few days and monitor idle/oil consumption patterns..Stay tuned..

[LGAFF]

:cheers:...now how does the USPS get that chip to NJ in one day and I mailed out some videos to NM and MI and it took over 3...all mailed 1st class?

Good luck!

[Mitsumark]

Hey Lee-Dont want to get excited to soon but my car seems to love your chip..The hunting idle has pretty much dissappeared..But best of all--- no tailpipe smoke.Is the chip tuned for a car with or without secondarys?

[efnfast]

Wouldn't that be great??

[LGAFF]

For a car with secondaries

[LGAFF]

Did i mention I want $10K for the chip? Its a magic chip:cheers:

[Franke]

I really like those fix all magic chips can I get a senior discount on a dozen? :)

[Karl]

Hope it works out for you...nothing like enjoying your sports car!

[Schrade]

Mark - did you send your chip to LG?

Is there ANYone who can de-compile the calibrations in it? So we can see what your fix is / might be???

Or is that tampering with some's revenue source???

[Mitsumark]

Ok well here's the deal..Car acts much more stable with Lees chip..Idles is much more stable at 1000RPM,,but most importantly the idle kind of comes down in steps when coming to a stop in neutral without the wild hunting..So this confirms that the TB/Idle screw in my car was probably set for 1000RPM calibration as that is where my original chip had the car idling before the updated Heibeck chip to where it idles at 750-800RPM..This was my request when having Marc program my chip..I had a feeling that the whacky idling was something simple and it seems I was right..What I didn't expect was the chip to help with the smoking at idle..Although I only drove it today,,I drove it quite a bit and didn't see any smoke..Also watched it idle for 20 min at full temp and no noticeable smoke..It was spewing out with my other chip as seen in the video I posted..I'm not getting my hopes up yet though..I'm gonna log a few more days/ miles with Lees chip and see what happens..I must also go pretty easy as Lees chip is for a secondary equipped car..Mine are gone....I gotta send my chip back to Marc for him to update it with the deleted secondary's..I'm also gonna request the cooing fan turn on sooner as my car runs much cooler with Lees chip..And although I don't like the 1000RPM calibration,it seems the car likes it much better so I'm gonna have him bump that back up too..I don't know why the smoke has virtually stopped all together with Lees chip..I also noticed right away the VD chip doesn't have the anti backfire safety built into it as my car was hissing and spitting fire on deceleration..My wife says the car shot a few flames from the tailpipes while she was following watching for smoke...I'll update again soon..

[LGAFF]

Good to hear,

[secondchance]

Fantastic! Always great to hear anyone with puzzling issue resolved.:cheers:

[scottfab]

Fantastic! Always great to hear anyone with puzzling issue resolved.:cheers:

I'll second (chance) that, especially when it's a highly modified car.

[PhillipsLT5]

You may need 1K idle with cams?
Car still needs a dyno tune,
Oil usage ?

[A26B]

........My wife says the car shot a few flames from the tailpipes while she was following watching for smoke...I'll update again soon..

Sounds like un-burned fuel in the exhaust. Leaking injector + waste spark on exhaust stroke = flames from the tail pipe??

You're making progress!!:cheers:

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Glad to hear things are working out. Wish Dominic could take a look at it

[Mr Blue]

If the oil consuption is truly resolved, it might be the time to get it on a dyno for custm calibration. At ay rate, it's good to not see any mention of that towel in your post. Hang in there. These cars are worth the trouble to get them right.

David

[XfireZ51]

You may need 1K idle with cams?
Car still needs a dyno tune,
Oil usage ?

don't need 1k idle w cams. In the early years, it was a work around. No need for that today. Yes you can actually run Closed Loop w larger cams.

[Karl]

Dom, your car idles like stock with the modified cams. When I saw you at US41 last year I was really impressed.

[XfireZ51]

Dom, your car idles like stock with the modified cams. When I saw you at US41 last year I was really impressed.

Karl,

Not quite stock at about 850-900rpm, but no surging or eye burning exhaust either. I am curious to see how much better it can be now w more accurate injector offset values.

[Hog]

Mark - did you send your chip to LG?

Is there ANYone who can de-compile the calibrations in it? So we can see what your fix is / might be???

Or is that tampering with some's revenue source???

Sounds like the "fix" is to have a proper calibration for a modified engine, esp. on these speed density beasts.

Anyone who is into ECM?PCM tuning with LT5 experience should be able to recalibrate a chip, with the car in front of them.

Marks issues, wouldnt even need a dyno, simply idling the car, driving it can yield great results. WOT tuning is often the easiest part, and is a small portion of the complete tuning picture.

IIRC MH only tunes the top 1/2 of the throttle range in his chips. Thats what I read here, I apologize if I'm mistaken.

Hook up the Bank 1 Sensor O2 sensor to the Bank 2 ECM input and vice versa and see what happens. You get a nice burble of flames out of the exhaust pipes at idle. Pretty sight, but not good for the cats.

I hope this issue works itself out, sounds like a good start.

[XfireZ51]

As an FYI for anyone attending The Gathering, I'll be giving a presentation on
Tuning the LT-5. There isn't enough time to go into great depth, but I hope to provide a "primer" approach to getting started. There's plenty of information and tools out there today for anyone who wants to get started. So there's no "conspiracy" to keep things a secret.

[scottfab]

As an FYI for anyone attending The Gathering, I'll be giving a presentation on
Tuning the LT-5. There isn't enough time to go into great depth, but I hope to provide a "primer" approach to getting started. There's plenty of information and tools out there today for anyone who wants to get started. So there's no "conspiracy" to keep things a secret.

That would make for a great separate thread or two:
1. Full code listing including OS
2. Comparative analysis of effects of injector delay offset
a) emissions
b) HP
c) idle quality

[Mitsumark]

Just a little update..I've logged an additional 600 miles since last post...Running Lee's VD chip has really convinced me that I don't have any serious engine issues.Oil consumption is way down and idle is much more stable..There is a very small trace of smoke that seems to come and go very quickly at idle..However it is not smoking at all like before where it was heavy and steady..The small remaining smoke may be due to the fact that I'm running a chip programmed for secondaries,but mine are gone(smells very rich)Don't know but I feel much better about the car now..It's amazing that just a tune would reek this kind of havoc on a car..PhillipLT5--You are absolutely right..Although the car seems to be much better with Lees chip,the car will never be 100% right until it gets tuned on a dyno by a knowledgable tuner...Lee-I'm definitely sending my chip back to Marc on Mon to be recalibrated..I should have my chip back by next Friday..Gonna drive on yours this week until mine returns..Really appreciate you doing this for me..I'll keep you updated..

[PhillipsLT5]

Good Luck with RE burn, but the only correct way is to get it on the dyno for your tune, with your mods

[Karl]

I had a feeling it was the chip from day one.

Imagine if you sold the car for $10k and found out it was the chip and a couple of fuel injectors gone bad....

Good luck!!!

[Hog]

Good Luck with RE burn, but the only correct way is to get it on the dyno for your tune, with your mods

Dyno tuning will only affect WOT tuning, unless its a loaded dyno. Idle and part throttle driving will remain unaffected.

the cirrect way is to have a compete recalibration completed when running mods. WOT tuning is the easiest part of tuning. We dont drive at WOT but for a small percentage while on the road.

[XfireZ51]

Not a well known fact, BUT part throttle affects WOT performance. Unless part throttle is done right, you will have variation in WOT performance if you run
Closed Loop. If your part throttle BLMs are on the lean side, the ECM compensates for that in its calc for the WOT pulse width. You may THINK you have your WOT tuned for say 12.8:1 but that's not what actually happens when you get on it. You'll be richer than expected.

[Bob Eyres]

I just read this whole thread from the beginning.
The lesson I'm taking away is that it's futile to use an "Off the shelf", or "Over the phone" tune on a modified LT5.
The car must be in the hands of an experienced tuner. Not only to optimize performance, but to ensure that it's baseline settings are correct.

Chalk up another success for this forum. You guys are phenomenal. :cheers:

BTW, Mark that is one nasty looking ZR-1. The wheels look great, and the interior is all "Business".:cool:

[scottfab]

I just read this whole thread from the beginning.
The lesson I'm taking away is that it's futile to use an "Off the shelf", or "Over the phone" tune on a modified LT5.
The car must be in the hands of an experienced tuner. Not only to optimize performance, but to ensure that it's baseline settings are correct.

Chalk up another success for this forum. You guys are phenomenal. :cheers:

BTW, Mark that is one nasty looking ZR-1. The wheels look great, and the interior is all "Business".:cool:

Totally my take too. Thread is pretty much done.

[Schrade]

Dyno tuning will only affect WOT tuning, unless its a loaded dyno. Idle and part throttle driving will remain unaffected.

the cirrect way is to have a compete recalibration completed when running mods. WOT tuning is the easiest part of tuning. We dont drive at WOT but for a small percentage while on the road.

Yup - sure is...

Not a well known fact, BUT part throttle affects WOT performance. Unless part throttle is done right, you will have variation [DEviation / DEGRADATION] in WOT performance if you run
Closed Loop. If your part throttle BLMs are on the lean side, the ECM compensates for that in its calc for the WOT pulse width. You may THINK you have your WOT tuned for say 12.8:1 but that's not what actually happens when you get on it. You'll be richer than expected.

That's why I'm investigating the stagger @ 1.6 - 2.4% TO, that Marc says is 'normal', and that he says ALL LT5's have...

====================================

A quick question.....how can a chip change have an effect on a serious oil burning engine when said oil has to come from;

1. Bad Rings (sucks oil on intake stroke from bottom end).
2. Bad Rings (pushes exhaust gases past rings on compression stroke).
3. intake valve guides (sucking oil from under cam covers on intake stroke).
4. PCV system excessive oil fed into Plenum associated with item #2 and #3 above.

OR,

4a) TOO LIGHT-VISCOSITY OIL (which Mark ruled out in HIS case).

Items above assuming no Head Gasket leaks allowing a direct path for oil into the combustion chamber. All items above are mechanical with the so called chip (electrical) solution which has NO effect on rings or valve guides.

We are assuming the "smoke" is Blue and the Oil Loss is real.

I will think further on this but for now I am busy planting corn and beans ;)

[A26B]

A quick question............

I will think further on this but for now I am busy planting corn and beans ;)

:) How busy can it be, riding in that air conditioned cab, with quadriphonic stereo, (maybe even satellite TV) and GPs guidance steering the tractor?

When you figure it out, I would like to know too!

:cheers:

[Schrade]

:) How busy can it be, riding in that air conditioned cab, with quadriphonic stereo, (maybe even satellite TV) and GPs guidance steering the tractor?

When you figure it out, I would like to know too!

:cheers:

He's probably hatin' life, with no Drone tractor, rather havin' to put up with a lowly i-Tractor...

Alarm clock (for quittin' time)
Sport bucket seats
Paddle-Shift
10Megs/s weblink for YouTube / ZR1 boards
Blu-Ray / USB / SD/MMC / USB / 32"plasma TV
Domino's
Kindle
Where's the fridge?



Must be pretty indignifying having to hold a tilt-telescoping wheel, instead of a Joy-Stick?




http://www.tractorlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MF7600resize.jpg

[Kevin]

well this thread got off track..tor ;) just posting for a bad joke not telling anyone to get back on track. Just having fun, carry on

[Schrade]

COPS - Cheese it guys!

http://forums.militarytimes.com/images/smilies/bolt.gif

[FU]

http://www.tractorlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MF7600resize.jpg

Well now isn't that a picture of beauty :cheers:

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Well now isn't that a picture of beauty :cheers:

Even a seat for the Mrs.....!

[Hib Halverson]

A quick question.....how can a chip change have an effect on a serious oil burning engine when said oil has to come from;

1. Bad Rings (sucks oil on intake stroke from bottom end).
2. Bad Rings (pushes exhaust gases past rings on compression stroke).
3. intake valve guides (sucking oil from under cam covers on intake stroke).
4. PCV system excessive oil fed into Plenum associated with item #2 and #3 above.

Items above assuming no Head Gasket leaks allowing a direct path for oil into the combustion chamber. All items above are mechanical with the so called chip (electrical) solution which has NO effect on rings or valve guides.

We are assuming the "smoke" is Blue and the Oil Loss is real.
I will think further on this but for now I am busy planting corn and beans ;)

Located inside the crankcase near the CPS is an undocumented device caledl an
oil vapor inversion initiator valve" (OVIAV) which is controlled by the ECM. On most LT5s, the table which controls that is disabled, but on a few cars, originally sold in certain areas of North America, that system is enabled. If it is enabled and the valve begins to malfunction, oil use skyrockets. Typically, if engine which has had OVAIV disabled for a long time is switched to a cal with the system enabled, it will experience a valve failure in short order. The first cal must have enabled the valve and it failed. Obviously, when "mitsumark" changed to the cal he got from "LGAFF", he got a cal with the OVIAV disabled, again, so oil use went back down.

This post was moderated for "some" of its content. PM sent

[Jagdpanzer]

Well put Hib!
You've got me convinced.

[scottfab]

Well put Hib!
You've got me convinced.

Agreed. I like it when we get both educated and get to watch
someone get a question really really answered =D>

[-=Jeff=-]

Located inside the crankcase near the CPS is an undocumented device caledl an
oil vapor inversion initiator valve" (OVIAV) which is controlled by the ECM. On most LT5s, the table which controls that is disabled, but on a few cars, originally sold in certain areas of North America, that system is enabled. If it is enabled and the valve begins to malfunction, oil use skyrockets. Typically, if engine which has had OVAIV disabled for a long time is switched to a cal with the system enabled, it will experience a valve failure in short order. The first cal must have enabled the valve and it failed. Obviously, when "mitsumark" changed to the cal he got from "LGAFF", he got a cal with the OVIAV disabled, again, so oil use went back down.

This post was moderated for "some" of its content. PM sent

So which is it? OVIAV or OVAIV? :p

SO IF something like this existed why would it NOT be in the FSM? Where is the cable and connector for it? and How does it Actually work? since it is not listed in the FSM, how does one service it?

I think the OVIAV or OVAIV (your post had both acronyms) is in the same class as muffler bearings... so please enlighten all of us on the specifics of this mysterious component

[edram454]

man you guys are great. Hib Halverson is amazing. What a great support system. I am glad that our fellow member did not sell his zr1 for 10k. what a disaster that would have been for him after this problem was solved by resident guru's. I congratulate all the resident guru's for helping our member in distress.

ed ramos #3028

[Blue Flame Restorations]

man you guys are great. Hib Halverson is amazing. What a great support system. I am glad that our fellow member did not sell his zr1 for 10k. what a disaster that would have been for him after this problem was solved by resident guru's. I congratulate all the resident guru's for helping our member in distress.

ed ramos #3028

Exactly. This is just what this forum is about. Enthusiasts helping each other through healthy dialogue and the love of the LT5. The only place to belong for great help and information.

:dancing

[LGAFF]

I think the car was too rich and that oil was not the issue.....however that being said; BMW M54engines have an issue with condensation building up in the oil separator; freezing...then pressuring the system and forcing all of the engine oil into the intake, locking the motor:

http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/12992838-oil-separator-problem

[XfireZ51]

So which is it? OVIAV or OVAIV? :p

SO IF something like this existed why would it NOT be in the FSM? Where is the cable and connector for it? and How does it Actually work? since it is not listed in the FSM, how does one service it?

I think the OVIAV or OVAIV (your post had both acronyms) is in the same class as muffler bearings... so please enlighten all of us on the specifics of this mysterious component

Jeff,

No such param in the cal. Certain it's Hib being snarky.

[-=Jeff=-]

Jeff,

No such param in the cal. Certain it's Hib being snarky.

Right, just wanted him to confirm :)

[Schrade]

My college profs knew the subject matter better than I did (til I got the stuff down).

At LEAST once a month, for 9 1/2 yrs (4 majors, paid from my own pocket while running a business), I'd get for an answer to my Q's, something like, "That's a good question...".

So "hh", do you have a schematic of this gizmo-bob, in ANY car?

[scottfab]

My college profs knew the subject matter better than I did (til I got the stuff down).

At LEAST once a month, for 9 1/2 yrs (4 majors, paid from my own pocket while running a business), I'd get for an answer to my Q's, something like, "That's a good question...".

So "hh", do you have a schematic of this gizmo-bob, in ANY car?

I have an early production 90.
As I remember, it has a two wire connection down there.
I remember wondering what it was.
I wonder. I do know that no matter how long I have the car
I keep learning stuff. It's only those that think they have all
the answers that get in trouble. They cannot be educated.

[mike100]

Don't know how long it was running pig rich and washing down the cylinders, but hopefully oil consumption will be ok now with a fresh eeprom and oil change.

I don't see a chip running that badly being sold, but more likely I think the program got corrupted and a few 1's and 0's got mixed up in memory causing part of the fuel calculation to be way off. It would be interesting to me to read the old chip and see what the differences are.

just remember that the first quart of oil burns off quickly from windage and oil level should dwell near the add line after that with much less consumption.

[LGAFF]

This car has Jeal cams which have ramps that open quicker than even regrinds...meaning overlap, less vac...confusing the MAP Sensor and O2s...meaning its going to run pig rich more than likely.....if you did not program the chip for the cams...there are going to be idle and fuel issues.

[XfireZ51]

This car has Jeal cams which have ramps that open quicker than even regrinds...meaning overlap, less vac...confusing the MAP Sensor and O2s...meaning its going to run pig rich more than likely.....if you did not program the chip for the cams...there are going to be idle and fuel issues.

The O2s present an issue only if he's running Closed Loop. The MAP sensor won't be confused but it will move around a bit causing fuel and spark to change constantly.If the VE and SA tables aren't "smoothed", the motor will bounce around, ie surge as the cal moves from one cell to the other.

[Hib Halverson]

Jeff,

No such param in the cal. Certain it's Hib being snarky.

"Snarky"?
Ok. You guys caught me snarkified.
;)
Actually, the post about the oil vapor inversion initiator valve was supposed to be a joke but, since the first part of the text was "moderated", the effect was not as desired. Maybe I should made the post three weeks ago and called it an "oil vapor inversion inebriator valve" to make the humor more obvious.

I just was having a little fun...maybe out of frustration with how difficult this site has become to enjoy with the aggressive stance its owners have chosen in moderating its content.

As for the engine which was smoking, had high oil use but "cleaned up" after the cal was changed.

I've never head of a case of cylinder wall wash down due to an excessively rich mixture which was to the extent described but without terrible drivability and the MIL coming on. Nevertheless, if the problem went away with a cal change, that's great news. Unfortunately, that bad a case of gasoline dilution of the oil usually causes bore wear. Sounds like it didn't go on for too long so hopefully there's no long lasting damage.

I'd change the oil and filter immediately.

[LGAFF]

The O2s present an issue only if he's running Closed Loop. The MAP sensor won't be confused but it will move around a bit causing fuel and spark to change constantly.If the VE and SA tables aren't "smoothed", the motor will bounce around, ie surge as the cal moves from one cell to the other.

So are you saying that a cammed car does not need to caibrated then vs a chip for a ported car? I think we would both agree that is not the case.

They actually make a MAP signal dampner for cars with extremely large cams

[Schrade]

I have an early production 90.
As I remember, it has a two wire connection down there.
I remember wondering what it was.
I wonder. I do know that no matter how long I have the car
I keep learning stuff. It's only those that think they have all
the answers that get in trouble. They cannot be educated.

That' the difference between 'know-it-alls', and wise men ;)

[XfireZ51]

So are you saying that a cammed car does not need to caibrated then vs a chip for a ported car? I think we would both agree that is not the case.

They actually make a MAP signal dampner for cars with extremely large cams

No that's not what I am saying. You still need to tune the VE tables whether its open or closed loop. In fact, you could start w a base VE using a WB, then move on to Closed Loop. My comment was to clarify that the O2s come into play when you are running closed loop. I suspect the Jeal cams are not so radical that you would need to run N-alpha mode(N-Alpha is to remove somewhat the MAP sensor's contribution from engine fueling, used only when true MAP readings are not usable.). I believe Todd may be using that for his 427 given the spec of his cams. Not sure if its being used just at idle or other parts.

[scottfab]

I have an early production 90.
As I remember, it has a two wire connection down there.
I remember wondering what it was.
I wonder. I do know that no matter how long I have the car
I keep learning stuff. It's only those that think they have all
the answers that get in trouble. They cannot be educated.

Dang. Should have kept it going Hib.
And yes, a few weeks back (say April 1st) would have been better.=D>
I guess I'll have to tuck those wires back in :p
If you can't educate them you can pull their chain.
The last time this was pulled was on the list server.

[XfireZ51]

Seriously tho Hib, with your journalistic prowess, why not determine what the 24 hour motor config and calibration actually was? Secondaries or not? Fueling/Spark changes? Given how long ago this was, time could be running out on getting the first person accounts.

[Hog]

.Yes..Car is burning about 1/2 qt in a couple hundred miles according to dipstick and smoke.

Is the car still using this much oil?

In regards to oil being contaminated by gasoline, is that with the LT5's very large oil capacity, this effect is muted somewhat moreso than say a standard 5 liter capacity in other vehicles.

To actually wash down cylinder rings with raw fuel the injectors would require a very very rich condition. One almost unattainable except for say an injector that is stuck open, or a cylinder that isnt firing.
Washing down the rings was far more of an issue in the days of the carbeurator.

I'm very pleased that this issues appears to be working itself out. Being stumped with an issue, if very frustrating. And to be honest, makes me apprehensive about ZR-1 ownership.

[cadillac531]

So, I've read this thread from the beginning and I, too, am glad to see this is working it's way out.

I know that OP had mentioned only 2 plugs were wet with oil, but is it possible there is excessive blow by through the PCV system?

I had this issue with my big block Chevelle. It was all 8 plugs, so diagnosis was much easier, but I vented the valve cover to atmosphere and blocked off the back of the carb where the PCV system hooked up. No more oil consumption and the plugs remained dry.

Perhaps venting the crank to atmosphere and blocking off the PCV system would stop the oil consumption...or maybe an oil separator installed in the system would work.

Modified motors can make more crank case pressure than stock ones, especially with increased cubic inches. They can push oil through the PCV system and into the combustion chamber.

Just a thought.

[Hib Halverson]

Seriously tho Hib, with your journalistic prowess, why not determine what the 24 hour motor config and calibration actually was? Secondaries or not? Fueling/Spark changes? Given how long ago this was, time could be running out on getting the first person accounts.

I was there.

I wrote most of the magazine accounts of the Record Run...Road&Track, Vette Magazine, Corvette Enthusiast and what was on the old ZR-1 Net web. I wrote what's on the current Registry site. I moderated the panel discussion at the 20th Anniversary of the Record Run.

I knew the two guys who conceived the idea. Four of the drivers are personal friends of mine. I interviewed the team owner several times. I know one of the guys who worked on the engine at Stillwater

I'm confident that I don't need to determine much more about the RR and that the information I've posted to date is accurate.

[Hib Halverson]

Wires?

Now Scott...
(sigh)
...clearly you're aware that the LT5 was very advanced for its time, no? In fact, the oil vapor inversion inebriator valve was a wireless device. The first of it's kind in the world, much less in any internal combustion engine. This was long before the term "wi-fi" became a part of our lives. The OVIIV transmitted its signal on the same general frequency as the LTPWS just on a fifth channel and there is an undocumented part of the LTPWS receiver that process that info. It's then send via the serial data line to the ECM.




My imagination is vivid tonight. Ya know...I've been eating some homemade snickerdoodle cookies. I need to check all the ingredients my wife puts in these things.

[XfireZ51]

I was there.

I wrote most of the magazine accounts of the Record Run...Road&Track, Vette Magazine, Corvette Enthusiast and what was on the old ZR-1 Net web. I wrote what's on the current Registry site. I moderated the panel discussion at the 20th Anniversary of the Record Run.

I knew the two guys who conceived the idea. Four of the drivers are personal friends of mine. I interviewed the team owner several times. I know one of the guys who worked on the engine at Stillwater

I'm confident that I don't need to determine much more about the RR and that the information I've posted to date is accurate.

I read your article and I really enjoyed reading it. I thought it would be interesting to go further especially since you "know the guy who worked on the engine in Stillwater". I think you misunderstood my intent.

[USAZR1]

Wires?

(sigh)
...clearly you're aware that the LT5 was very advanced for its time, no? In fact, the oil vapor inversion inebriator valve was a wireless device. The first of it's kind in the world, much less in any internal combustion engine. This was long before the term "wi-fi" became a part of our lives. The OVIIV transmitted its signal on the same general frequency as the LTPWS just on a fifth channel and there is an undocumented part of the LTPWS receiver that process that info. It's then send via the serial data line to the ECM.




My imagination is vivid tonight. Ya know...I've been eating some homemade snickerdoodle cookies. I need to check all the ingredients my wife puts in these things.


Well played,sir. :notworthy

[Hib Halverson]

I read your article and I really enjoyed reading it. I thought it would be interesting to go further especially since you "know the guy who worked on the engine in Stillwater". I think you misunderstood my intent.

Neither of us is on the same wavelength, I guess.

I agree that it might be interesting to a few hardcore LT5 enthusiasts to know more than what already has been published about the engine but, there isn't anyone who's going to pay for the costs of additional research and interviews.

And really, at this point after 24 years, who gives a **** if the engine had secondaries or not, or if it had some secret trick cal or if it has a scosh higher compression or something like that...the engine was inspected and sealed by the FIA and it set the f'ing record.

That the engine ran 175 mph. for 24 hours speaks for itself.

I'll guess that 90% of the cars owned by people on this forum could not come close to that and, of the remaining 10% of the cars that could, 9.9% have owners who either lack the driving skills necesary or would be scared shitless confronted with the conditions under which the Record Run took place.

Actually, when you really think about it, all the crap which we do to these cars now....removing secondaries (well, some of us), revised calibrations, ported top ends, different injectors, 64-mm TBs, headers...none of that stuff existed in the Winter of 1989/1990 when the Record Run car's engine was done. If Morrison wanted to "cheat" with the motor, he couldn't have done it, anyway because none of the technology existed.

[scottfab]

Wires?

Now Scott...
(sigh)
...clearly you're aware that the LT5 was very advanced for its time, no? In fact, the oil vapor inversion inebriator valve was a wireless device. The first of it's kind in the world, much less in any internal combustion engine. This was long before the term "wi-fi" became a part of our lives. The OVIIV transmitted its signal on the same general frequency as the LTPWS just on a fifth channel and there is an undocumented part of the LTPWS receiver that process that info. It's then send via the serial data line to the ECM.

I think this is a similar track we took in 2000 or there abouts.




My imagination is vivid tonight. Ya know...I've been eating some homemade snickerdoodle cookies. I need to check all the ingredients my wife puts in these things.

You know, that's not legal in Calif. Only here in Washington and Colorado can people cook their own snickerdoodles. :nono:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y114/x0xchelzx0x/gifs/asdasd.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/x0xchelzx0x/media/gifs/asdasd.gif.html)

[edram454]

I would think more than 10% of the cars on this forum would have the power and endurance to run the 24 hours considering the technology has advanced and the car produces more power with better internals and proper porting etc... It was stated that the record run motor was a crate motor with no mods just no cats and headers. it ran with those crappy injectors and no porting what so ever. At least I'd like to think that at least half of the really well cared for cars could have a legitimate chance to run it.

Of course this does not include the driver with the large gonads to actually drive it at those speeds for 24 hours. I am just saying that I feel that more than 10% of the well cared for and maintained cars belonging to our membership could do it.

[Mitsumark]

Looks like u guys have been having fun while I was gone..Well I logged a total of 12xx miles with Lees chip and a Moroso catch can.The oil consumption is down drastically from before verified by the stick and very little oil in can..Smoke has 90% disappeared too...The only thing that has still remained is the hunting idle which I thought I got rid of,,but re appeared again.Atleast I know now that it seems there is no major motor issues..I've been driving around on Lees chip for the past couple weeks and it is tuned for a "secondary equipped car"..My secondarys are gone..I went against the advice given to others on this forum about driving without proper calibration for the elimination of secondary's..After getting a bit comfortable I have to admit I got on her a few times with Lees chip with no I'll effect..Car pulls hard with no noticeable detonation,ping,ect..No check engine light either..After all tne issues this car wont throw a CEL.. What the hell does it take?:This makes me ask the question of what is the purpose of me spending more money on another calibration to "write off" the secondary function?..Needless to say I sent the chip back to Marc for the correction..Unfortunetely every one of the most competent LT5 tuners are in Chicago..Even with the recal I know this car needs to be on a dyno with wideband /scanning capabilities so the revised tune is temporary..I want to thank all of you for all the help..Especially LGaff and David Johnson for the phone time and lending me there chips..On another note,,does anyone here have any experience or know anyone that has had work done by Cartek here in NJ?..These are Vette guys who supposedly do great tuning work but they are specialists in LS based cars.What makes an LT5 different from tuning anything else?.I may give them a call..

Lee-PM me your addy..I tried making out your writing but man;)..I should have my chip back soon so I'll drop yours in the mail sometime next week..Maybe Wed/Thurs..

[lisounds]

I'm Happy you got the issues sorted out Mark



:thumbsup:

[LantanaTX]

Glad you got it worked out!

[Mitsumark]

Sorted out..Yeah mostly..Still have a few issues to address..I'm just glad the motor seems to be fine..Thanks guys..

John--Your the man..Very happy with my stereo install..:dancing

[alnukem]

Just a note for people that might use this thread in troubleshooting their car, I did buy Mitsumark's car last year. At the end of the day, it was collapsed oil rings & damaged sleeves. To be fair, I believe this car was tracked pretty hard. We have decided to replace the sleeves, rings & bearings. A little additional porting work will be done & Pete's Stage 1 Exhaust cams will be added to the already there, Split Duration 228/238 Intake Cams. I Hope none of you end up at the same place, but it could have been worse!