Rut Roh E-15 soon

[FU]

E-15 was given a green light. We will see what it does now.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04-02/adm-others-win-u-dot-s-dot-approval-to-market-higher-ethanol-blend

[Kevin]

if what I've read is correct...none of my cars can run that without massive fuel system rebuilds

[efnfast]

Feds way of getting the old stuff off the road. Just like ultra low sulfer diesel.

[cvette98pacecar]

Wont happen. Here is the problem, it absorbs moisture, are you going to replace fuel systems every 5 years? What are they going to do for serious collector cars that are not driven yearly, allow the moisture to corrode the everything metal from the inside out? Some collections out there have to be in the 100's of millions. Do you think those owners are going to let this happen? While E15 will be processed for morons that will use it E5 will always be readily available.
This is just a gimmick as E85 was, cost per gallon was less at the pump. but, fuel consumption went up, grocery went up because the feed corn that would have been used for agricultural means was used to produce **** gas.

[efnfast]

do you think the feds care about car collectors and their precious old cars?

[Kevin]

do you think the feds care about car collectors and their precious old cars?

no, but you don't get a collection worth hundreds of millions without knowing a few numbers to call when things don't go your way

[cvette98pacecar]

do you think the feds care about car collectors and their precious old cars?

Yes, who do you think funds their election campaign.

[USAFPILOT]

It will ruin your fuel system...without a doubt. It will also have a negative impact on your fuel economy. It will make food prices go up. I hate this crap.

[carter200]

E-15 was given a green light. We will see what it does now.


Grab your ankles! Another reason to thank OBAMA :-x

[efnfast]

We (as in we Americans) can't do any better than this? Internal combustion engines are over 100 years old. A 1972 Honda Civic got 50 mpg. Have we forgotten how to do that? We can put a man on the moon, or at least we used to be able to, but we can't do any better than 25 or mpg in our cars. I think there might be something wrong. Thank you for listening, I feel a little better now.

:proud:

[phrogs]

None of our older cars are going to work with this crap! Why oh why do they continue to shove this down our throats with Zero research.


I have fuel injectors that have been ruined by ethonal, I have aluminum fuel tanks in my Ferrari that are being ruined by ethonal. There is no non ethonal anywhere near me and I'm in Michigan.


The EPA really wants to destroy the car hobby don't they, ******* tools have no clue.

[ZONER 95]

no, but you don't get a collection worth hundreds of millions without knowing a few numbers to call when things don't go your way

I agree......:fahne:

[tomtom72]

Oh, this again. I thought SEMA had lobbied to kill this idea? I guess not eh?

The basic question of fuel system incompatibility not with standing, can anyone at the EPA or anywhere in the government explain to me the answer to this Q: Why is it advantageous to use farm land to augment motor fuel production instead of using that land for food production? I know I'm a bit dim witted, but I still don't get the reasoning?:dontknow:

If it's to cut our dependency upon imported crude oil, then why don't we just figure out way to drill safely ( low environmental impact methods ) on our land for crude oil? Also, it occurs to me that perhaps we could do with a few more refineries to make motor fuel, no?

:o okay I'm sorry for asking those questions here fellers! It just frosts me that from the outside looking in, there appears to be no critical thinking on this subject.:o

:cheers:
Tom

[VetteMed]

Sounds to me like the greenies, including the doofus in the white house, want to make gasoline as unappealing as possible. How to do this?

Make it expensive.
Make it perform poorly.
Make it damaging to the vehicles that need it.

Sounds like the perfect plan for these dipchits that want to do the thinking for us.

[efnfast]

Sounds to me like the greenies, including the doofus in the white house, want to make gasoline as unappealing as possible. How to do this?

Make it expensive.
Make it perform poorly.
Make it damaging to the vehicles that need it.

Sounds like the perfect plan for these dipchits that want to do the thinking for us.
But I need someone to think for me. I can't do that alone. I also need someone to support me, I can't do that alone either.

[Paul Workman]

Oh, this again. I thought SEMA had lobbied to kill this idea? I guess not eh?

The basic question of fuel system incompatibility not with standing, can anyone at the EPA or anywhere in the government explain to me the answer to this Q: Why is it advantageous to use farm land to augment motor fuel production instead of using that land for food production? I know I'm a bit dim witted, but I still don't get the reasoning?:dontknow:

If it's to cut our dependency upon imported crude oil, then why don't we just figure out way to drill safely ( low environmental impact methods ) on our land for crude oil? Also, it occurs to me that perhaps we could do with a few more refineries to make motor fuel, no?

:o okay I'm sorry for asking those questions here fellers! It just frosts me that from the outside looking in, there appears to be no critical thinking on this subject.:o

:cheers:
Tom

It is a HUGE sham. Not only does it remove food from the supply, but IT TAKES MORE ENERGY TO PRODUCE A GALLON OF ETHANOL THAN THE ETHONOL PRODUCES. WHERE DOES THIS ENGERGY TO PRODUCE IT COME FROM? (HINT...IT AIN'T WIND POWER!).

This is another classic example of big $$$ lobiests geting behind whatever GREEN initiative they can that will stuff their pockets. They, and certainly (by example) the government and politicians especially (make that specifically) are hell bent on whatever is good for them as individuals and to hell with the rest of us lowly citizens!!

Need to call, write, bitch like hell to get this stopped!! This ethonol is a total BS scam!!!

P.

[tomtom72]

Yes Paul, you are right! It reminds me of something I saw about 6 or more years ago one night on CNBC's "Kudlow and Kramer" show, that's a blast from the past. They were discussing GE Capitol's submission for a SEC license to make a market in Carbon Credits! They actually wanted to be the first to start an exchange board in our country for trading carbon credits! What the heck was that all about?! MONEY! Hummmmm, I thought that was a bunch of B.S. back then along with the idea of trying to use ethanol as a motor fuel back then. Heck even the CART cars used to use methanol because it was cheaper and more efficient than ethanol & easier to put out if it caught fire that racing gas!
IDK, sometimes I think the older I get, the stupider I get! But then I see bogus stuff like this going down, or trying to be shoved down our collective throats and I start to wonder do the big shots really think we are all asleep? I know what I'm doing about it in November.

:cheers:
Tom

[John Boothby]

My father was in the service station business all his life (Shell). One of my uncles owned a Dodge/Chrysler dealership in Monmouth, Ill and one of my uncles owned a transmission shop in Elgin, Ill. I remember all of them talking back in the 50's/60's about a carburator that would get 50-100 mpg but the oil companies bought up the patent. Also, the rumor goes, the oil companies would buy up any patent that would extend fuel milage. This was back in the 50's/60's! I believe that the oil companies now are also involved in stiffling any great advances in extended milage technology. You cannot tell me that with todays computers and fuel injection technology that they cannot build an engine that will get 100+ mpg and have decent performance!

[efnfast]

John, I agree 100%. But, its good business for the oil companies to buy this stuff up. Quite a shame, but you know it happens. See my post earlier, a 1972 Honda Civic got 50 mpg. Uh, we can't do that anymore?????

[John Boothby]

Yea, I firmly believe that Big Oil has conspired to keep extended milage technology out of the main stream production vehicles.

I was stationed on Okinawa in 1966-67 and remember Honda had a small sports car kinda like the MG Miget or sprite that was chain drive and had a motorcycle engine. It could not be imported into the US due the prevailing safety standards. Also, I remember when the Civic was introduced into the US. It was so small and cheaply built it was a joke. But, it did get 50 or more mpg! And it did sell.

All politics aside, the US only has 2% of the world's oil reserves and consumes 20% of the world's supply. So, does'nt common sense say that drill-baby-drill will not solve our problem? It might solve the short term, but what about long term?

[John Boothby]

Also, regarding the Keystone pipeling that everyone is histerical about, it is a Canadian company that wants to build this pipeling across the breadth of the US from north to south, across our breadbasket, so that it can pump shale oil from Canada to Houston where it will be refined and exported overseas. It will not help the USA one iota!! And, it has the potential of leaking and polluting OUR soil!!

[efnfast]

How 'bout something other than gasoline. Think we can't do that? 'Coarse the oil companies won't let that happen. It's amazing what you can do with money. And who you can buy.
Jeeze John, in '66 I was two.

[John Boothby]

I hear ya. I am all for alternative fuels! Ethonol has it's merits, but I cannot see givin up my JD!! Just jokin!!

Yes, big money and big business has kinda distroyed this country. I remember mom & pop businesses like hardware stores and grocery stores and clothing stores and service stations and parts stores and hamberger/hot dog stands etc etc. My father had a Shell station for years. Then a large box store opened up next to his business and Shell sold them their products for less then my father could buy them from the company. So, folks would buy their oil and filters from the box store and come over to my dad's station and want him to change their oil. Then they would complain if he charged them a couple of bucks to do it!! Remember, back then we did not charge labor to change oil, just the cost of the oil and filter!! They basically put him out of business. After years of being a dedicated shell dealer, the company crapped on him and could have cared less!! Yes, I am bitter and hate big business AND the oil companies!! Sorry for the rant. I will now shut up.:proud:

[phrogs]

I wonder how you would see okinawa now that they drive on the wrong side of the road? It was funny having a LH drive vette over there when I was on OKI driving on the LH side of the road.


Yea, I firmly believe that Big Oil has conspired to keep extended milage technology out of the main stream production vehicles.

I was stationed on Okinawa in 1966-67 and remember Honda had a small sports car kinda like the MG Miget or sprite that was chain drive and had a motorcycle engine. It could not be imported into the US due the prevailing safety standards. Also, I remember when the Civic was introduced into the US. It was so small and cheaply built it was a joke. But, it did get 50 or more mpg! And it did sell.

All politics aside, the US only has 2% of the world's oil reserves and consumes 20% of the world's supply. So, does'nt common sense say that drill-baby-drill will not solve our problem? It might solve the short term, but what about long term?

[FU]

Well I was hoping to discuss the effects of E15 on our ZR1 fuel systems. Hopefully E15 will be easy on the ZR1's fuel system. Or will is there enough ethanol to start effecting the later model LT5 injectors ?Will the increased ethanol start to effect (gulp) the metal ie: gas tank , fuel lines pumps etc. ? Time will tell , lets keep our finger's crossed.

Maybe this should be moved to the Tech section ?

[John Boothby]

Have they started putting ethenol in the high test gasoline yet? I would think that if you have converted over to the stainless injectors it will not hurt these.

As for Okinawa, I imagine a lot has changed since we gave it back. When I was there the military (US) ran the island with an elected local governor. A MP had to patrol with a Ryukian cop as a partner. And yes, we drove on the right side.

[Kevin]

Well I was hoping to discuss the effects of E15 on our ZR1 fuel systems. Hopefully E15 will be easy on the ZR1's fuel system. Or will is there enough ethanol to start effecting the later model LT5 injectors ?Will the increased ethanol start to effect (gulp) the metal ie: gas tank , fuel lines pumps etc. ? Time will tell , lets keep our finger's crossed.

Maybe this should be moved to the Tech section ?

i read on...i think team zr-1...that any car before 2002ish will have to have the entire fuel system replaced to run e15

[John Boothby]

I Googled E85 and came up with some interesting facts in Wikipedia. It has a very long article on E85 along with many links for further reading.

The main things that I read were: Ethonol has a higher effective octane than gasoline and runs cooler than gasoline and is used in high performance turbocharged engines to produce more power. Ethonol has a lower energy output (needs high compression to get the optimal energy) than gasoline and therefore produces fewer mpg than gasoline. Ethonol is most effective in high compression engines. The use of gasoline in engines designed for ethonol only, can cause catastrophic failure (due to the higher compression). The use of E85 in engines not designed for this fuel can cause loss of power and lower mpg (due, I imagine, to lower compression). In addition, it stated that the chemical makeup of ethonol can cause increased wear and early failure. This last issue is what concerns me the most.

[DaveK]

Keystone is a "Canadian" Company but like so many of these companies, the actual ownership is traced to shareholders in many countries. It isn't working for Canadian interests any more than it is U.S. interests. The only interests it cares about are those of the undoubtedly already rich shareholders and it spends a lot of money buying 'friends' where it needs them.

The Keystone project doesn't help Canadian interests, it simply makes it easy to ship mineral resources (and wealth) out of the country. It doesn't help U.S. interests because the oil that is pumped out of Canada will not go to the U.S. to lower prices there or lower the U.S. dependence on foreign oil. In fact i is likely to push up the price of oil in certain areas. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46689167/ns/us_news-christian_science_monitor/#.T4Gu0tmzlVO

As for E15, the 'greens' don't want it and don't support it. Again this is as a result of vested interests buying a decision that benefits them personally at the expense of both the guy on the street and the environment. http://www.allstate.com/insurance-industry-news/general-insurance-news/environmentalists-oppose-epas-approval-of-e15-production-800658540.aspx

From what I see the biggest threat we have to worry about is the very rich entrenched interests that push their self-serving goals through by buying the influence they need to get it done regardless of what that means to everyone else. This has always happened of course, but the scale in operation now is immense.

Beware the FUD.

[John Boothby]

I hear ya!! Hit the nail on the head!

[USAFPILOT]

First of all, you shouldn't believe anything from MSNBC. Increasing the supply of Oil to the global market will help to drive down the cost of Oil globally. It will create jobs for our citizens. There is no fathomable reason the govt. should be blocking the project.

Also, the only real way to drive down gas prices in this country is to remove the red tape preventing the construction of new refineries. We have plenty of oil here, but not enough capacity to produce gas, nor the competition between gasoline creating companies to bring it to market cheaper. Our government needs to get out of the way.

We should eliminate the EPA, the IRS, the DHS and probably a few more regulation creating agencies that are hamstringing our collective ability to keep this country the most free and most economically powerful in the world.

[efnfast]

Agree with the pilot. That brings up a good point, how come gas is all the same price? Shouldn't it be different with different companies. Might that not be price fixing when all the companies charge the same price, or within pennies of each other.

[John Boothby]

The great thing about this country, is that we can debate this stuff and then go VOTE! And the world goes around. Long live the ZR-1!:proud:

[FU]

First of all, you shouldn't believe anything from MSNBC.

Our government needs to get out of the way.

We should eliminate the EPA, the IRS, the DHS and probably a few more regulation creating agencies that are hamstringing our collective ability to keep this country the most free and most economically powerful in the world.

Touche ! All are EXCELLENT points. :cheers:

[tomtom72]

Well I was hoping to discuss the effects of E15 on our ZR1 fuel systems. Hopefully E15 will be easy on the ZR1's fuel system. Or will is there enough ethanol to start effecting the later model LT5 injectors ?Will the increased ethanol start to effect (gulp) the metal ie: gas tank , fuel lines pumps etc. ? Time will tell , lets keep our finger's crossed.

Maybe this should be moved to the Tech section ?

I'd be very concerned because of our bladder in the tank, the o-rings in our fuel piping, the insulating epoxy on our injectors' coils ( OEM or aftermarket ), "wash down" effect of raw fuel on our liner walls and what happens when it reaches the oil in the sump. Maybe the last concern is a bit out there thought?

:cheers:
Tom

[FU]

I'd be very concerned because of our bladder in the tank, the o-rings in our fuel piping, the insulating epoxy on our injectors' coils ( OEM or aftermarket ), "wash down" effect of raw fuel on our liner walls and what happens when it reaches the oil in the sump. Maybe the last concern is a bit out there thought?

:cheers:
Tom

All are valid concern's Tom. The 'wash down" effect of the highly corrosive ethanol will be a problem. OEM injectors will be done with and possibly fuel lines etc.
And this is all due to lobbyist concern's , and not the green weenies. The ethanol from the gas stations here on Long island is making it's way into the groundwater and drinking water.

[BigJohn]

You can drink Ethanol!
Methanol would kill you and is highly corrosive, but has been used in racing for years.

[John Boothby]

They havn't remediated all those leaky steel underground tanks back there yet? All the steel tanks out here were replaced with fiberglass way back in the 70's 80's. There are still some old gas station sites being monitored here. All part of the super fund, if I remember right.

[WB9MCW]

I had the pleasure of cleaning out my 350cc Yamaha Enduro this spring because it would only idle and not accelerate when started after not being run since last spring.

(I know stable or draining the carb would have prevented this but I did not plan to go this long between running the bike)

First I tried changing the gas out but same conditions so off came the carb.

Now I have torn down many carbs on various motorcycles I have owned over the years but this time I found something I have never seen before.

In the float bowl I found a dried up paste of green anywhere that the gas had been.

This paste of green was coating everything. Now I have never encountered this before so I took a smell of the carb bowl.

It smelled like fresh cut grass a very strong mint type smell.

Then it hit me -- it was the smell you get from a plant when you pinch the stem and the green fluid comes out -- chlorophyll -- Yes indeed the biomolecule critical in photosynthesis allowing plants to absorb energy from light.

It took a long time to clean this green paste out of the bowl and off all the jets etc.

Once done and reassembled the bike fired right up and was good to go and all back to 100% operation.

So unless I am wrong I figure that anytime you allow this E10 gas to sit for a long time and it evaporates off you get the mean green pasties.

My conclusion is that plant material even when refined to ethanol does not really mix well and fully with petrol. It seems to me it was a very bad idea and we all have been sold out and pushed down the road.

If I can see these results in a simple dirt bike carb I can only imagine what happens in complex fuel delivery systems like the ZR-1.

I am so glad I fire up my Z every 30 days and never let the gas get too old.

My marine mechanic friend tells me that Mercury Marine has put out special notice on E10 for their engines.
1- The E10 can go bad in as little as 30 days (so use stable in all gas now)
2- Do not store the boat full tank - Use up as much a you can and store with low level in the tank - The fill up come spring time will allow the ethanol to attract and combine with any H2O condensate just like adding "heat" to your gas.

The problem I see with our Z doing this is the well known issues with a low tank allowing air to rust the pump and float etc.

Final conclusions -- I now run STABLE in everything since E10 is a bummer and screwing everything up.

It can only be worse with E15.

[FU]

You can drink Ethanol!
Methanol would kill you and is highly corrosive, but has been used in racing for years.

:dontknow: give me a M for 200 Alex. And yes....I'll drink to that (ethanol).

They havn't remediated all those leaky steel underground tanks back there yet? All the steel tanks out here were replaced with fiberglass way back in the 70's 80's. There are still some old gas station sites being monitored here. All part of the super fund, if I remember right.

The tanks were replaced with double walled fiberglass and are monitored on a regular basis now. What's getting in the groundwater is the vapor's of Methanol from the gas. That stuff is that bad .

[WB9MCW]

Archers Daniels Midland, a Decatur-based company that produces 1.72 billion gallons of ethanol a year at six plants in the Midwest.

LARGE CORPORATIONS AND THEIR Special Interest Groups AND PAC's ARE THE PROBLEM THESE DAYS

Archer Daniels Midland:
A Case Study In Corporate Welfare

The Archer Daniels Midland Corporation (ADM) has been the most prominent recipient of corporate welfare in recent U.S. history. ADM and its chairman Dwayne Andreas have lavishly fertilized both political parties with millions of dollars in handouts and in return have reaped billion-dollar windfalls from taxpayers and consumers. Thanks to federal protection of the domestic sugar industry, ethanol subsidies, subsidized grain exports, and various other programs, ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. At least 43 percent of ADM's annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by ADM's corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of profits earned by its ethanol operation costs taxpayers $30

READ THE REST
>> http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html


SOME OF THE DIRTY DETAILS ON E10

As a result, the net energy efficiency of ethanol is in question. One gallon of ethanol contains the energy equivalent of 76,000 British Thermal Units (BTUs). In 1991, the Department of Energy estimated that to make a gallon of ethanol required 85,000 to 91,000 BTUs.(58)

Moreover, because gasohol gets a 6 cents per gallon subsidy (or 60 cents per gallon for pure ethanol), ethanol-using motorists end up paying more for dirtier air."(62) The National Academy of Sciences likewise concluded that "using ethanol as a blending agent in gasoline . . . would not achieve significant air-quality benefits and, in fact, would likely be detrimental."(63)

As President Bush's reelection prospects worsened, ethanol's prospects brightened. On October 1, 1992, Bush announced plans to partially waive the volatility requirement to allow ethanol to be used even though it could cause more pollution.(68)

On June 30, 1994, Clinton announced that the EPA would ignore the protests and impose its ethanol mandate on the nation's gasoline pumps. Clinton justified the ethanol mandate by declaring that it would provide "thousands of new jobs for the future" and that "this policy is good for our environment, our public health, and our nation's farmers-- and that's good for America

The EPA waiver for ethanol's use in gasoline was the equivalent of allowing city trash trucks to drop as much trash on the streets as they pick up from the curbsides--and to double bill their customers. The federal government had gone from ignoring pollution to benefit big business to mandating pollution to benefit one specific fat-cat corporation.

The Clinton administration's fuel-rule rigging provoked an angry backlash from both liberal and conservative newspapers:

The New York Times: "Ethanol will not clean the air beyond what the 1990 Clean Air Act would already require; nor will it . . . raise farm income very much or significantly cut imports. What the EPA's rule will do is take money from consumers and taxpayers and hand it over to Archer Daniels Midland."(77)
The Washington Post: "The misuse of the environmental laws as patronage to benefit narrow economic interests is a mistake."(78)
The Boston Herald: "The pandering to the farm lobby and big political donors could actually worsen air pollution."(79)
The Houston Post: "Bad science, bad economics, and politics as usual."(80)
USA Today: "Nothing is more likely to provoke a round of fat-cat-happiness than an open-ended federal rule that forces manufacturers and consumers to buy federally subsidized ethanol. It's a pork deal any fool could love."(81)
The Houston Chronicle: "The requirement that a car's fuel be made from a renewable source like corn makes no more sense than to demand that its engine be made from wood."(82)

In sum, one would be hard-pressed to find another industry as artificially sustained as the ethanol industry. The economics of ethanol are such that, for the industry to survive at all, massive trade protection, tax loopholes, contrived mandates for use, and production subsidies are vitally necessary. Only by spooking the public with bogey- men such as foreign oil sheiks, toxic air pollution, and the threatened disappearance of the American farmer can attention be deflected from the real costs of the ethanol house of cards that consumes over a billion dollars annually.

NOTE THIS IS ALL FROM A 1995 REPORT SO YOU KNOW IT IS EVEN WORSE NOW AND WITH E15 IT IS JUST MORE INSANITY!