AM Rings?

[LGAFF]

Who is selling the AM rings for the LT-5, my machinist said he would get new ones...

[Pete]

Who is selling the AM rings for the LT-5, my machinist said he would get new ones...



WTH are AM rings?

Pete

[LGAFF]

AM=Aftermarket......Piston Rings

[LGAFF]

Found it:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TSR-CR1031/

[A26B]

Lee,
You will need to carefully check these rings out. The compression rings have a history of being too thin, resulting in side clearance on the top side of acceptable. They also are not as wide as stock rings, meaning they are not as well supported in the ring groove when compressed. They will work, but short life due to flutter & ultimately breakage, may occur.

If you buy them, please let us know your findings.

[limey]

I am unsure if total seal have these rings anymore, so you may not be able to source them direct, however we do have plenty in stock if you want them. $249.99 per set.

I have sold these ring kits for 3 + years now and never had one issue with any customer, i've assembled motors in house and never had any issues with fitment. I found out about these rings through Marc and to get the word from the horses mouth it would be best to ask him, but... i am certain he uses them in stock motors.

I had one customer send a set back to me as he wasn;t certain he wanted to put these in his motor, that's fine we took them back, but i wouldn't hesitate in putting these Total Seal ring kits in any motor and would be happy to do so all day long. I can't say i have heard of any engine with these rings go 100,000 miles, but on the other hand i haven't heard of any failing after 1000 miles.

[A26B]

As a matter of clarification to the subject of my fitment post above, I do NOT have any personal experience with the fitment of the subject rings, nor did I know that Kurt sold Total Seal Rings. The information I provided was from two independent sources and was meant as a cautionary advisory.

If Marc Haibeck says they're good to go in a stock piston, then I'm sure he has checked fitment thoroughly and found them serviceable.

[LGAFF]

I checked into the issues, I was told that I need to check, however the issue was brought to their attention and supposedly has been fixed, the cost is $309.00

But as noted, no one has come forward with issues from the orginal rings

[flyin ryan]

WTH are AM rings?

PeteLOL...1st thing I thought of too!

[LGAFF]

Sorry AM is the abbreviation used in estimating for insurance claims when an aftermarket part is used.....

[HAWAIIZR-1]

I am only a novice builder if I can even call myself that and had first hand experience with the Total Seal rings. One set was the total seal patented gapless second ring set design (PN T1030) and the other two sets their conventional rings (CR1030). Both designs are specific LT5 applications for stock bore and I went back and forth with their techs about the specs.

All I will say is that I was going by service specs of the service manual and they were not within the measurements so I did not feel comfortable and sought out OEM rings from Jerry. I could not believe it and used several different measurement tools to confirm my findings. I do not have the exact specs on this computer, but I did run this by several of the reputable builders and it was mixed feelings and it was a known issue by some of them too. I bought a set from Kurt when I did not know they were the total seal rings that I had been messing with and he was kind enough to let me return them after I received, opened them and measured. I think if I had built my motor with the Total Seal I probably would not have noticed it or could tell the difference, but I was going but what is read about engine building and all I could do was follow textbook info not being an experienced engine builder. The local machine shop that is quite reputable with race motors told me not to use those too.

I am glad to hear if Total Seal fixed the issue and it would be their benefit to do so as we have enough folks that are going to need to eventually rebuild their LT5s; maybe I should take credit if they fixed it after all my complaining.....lol. They had told me at the time that they never had anyone mention the discreprancy of the rings. My arguement to Total Seal was why not make them the same measurement as stock rings if they are for stock pistons and all they could say was they are spec`d according to the pistons, but they were quite a bit thinner by measurement.

Anway, that is my 2 pennies to AM rings and the frustrations I went through. Having said all that, I kept the set I bought for $117 for that just in case in 20 years when I am a geezer in a Z that they would be better than no rings at all.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j86/hawaiizr1/img_920441_11455763_01.jpg

:saluting:

[LGAFF]

Called total seal, they have no record of revising the rings, or even selling them.

[mike100]

the TS gapless ring has a lot of controversy even in the small block world. They might be good for certain race engine applications, but something you want to run good for 10 years and not use a ton of oil, a standard moly faced top ring and original style cut and oil rings seems like the easiest decision.

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Called total seal, they have no record of revising the rings, or even selling them.

Lee,

That is wild stuff. The guy I spoke with and exchanged tons of emails with is Keith Jones. He was cool and let me return a set too.

http://www.totalseal.com/SalesStaff.aspx

[LGAFF]

Lost, Craigs are too small and info I just got said the Kurts are the correct size....or they should be :eek:

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Lost, Craigs are too small and info I just got said the Kurts are the correct size....or they should be :eek:

Lee,

The rings I got from Kurt were exactly the same as the other 3 sets from Total Seal and I measured them so I asked for return. I really don't want to quote what the other two builders that we all know told me.

[LGAFF]

:mad:-Think I will just swap in an LT-1

[LGAFF]

Looks like I am going to send them the rings and a piston to check out.

[Polo-1]

:mad:-Think I will just swap in an LT-1

don't do that.... At least put a new coyote 5.0 motor in it. Has 4 cams anyways:p

[Paul Workman]

don't do that.... At least put a new coyote 5.0 motor in it. Has 4 cams anyways:p

Maybe add a seminar on making a Coyote swap could be added to the agenda at the get together next week. Maybe THAT would get the attention of a few people at GM!!?? (Guess I'm still fuming over a comment to the detriment of DOHC technology that was made by a GM rep at last years gathering...:mad:)

P.

[LGAFF]

Calling total seal tomorrow about a set....will see what the cost is...they left a message on monday saying they could do it

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Calling total seal tomorrow about a set....will see what the cost is...they left a message on monday saying they could do it

Lee,

That is great and I hope it works out for the future of the LT5. I offered to send piston and rings too and the guy I was dealing with did not want to consider that since they already had rings made so he would not listen that their rings were off from the original ring specs.

[LGAFF]

They will make a copy of our ring, with a gapless 2nd ring, and 3 piece oil ring that has better sealing that stock, specifically designed for Nikasil

Ind price is $310

More than 10 sets they would do 270 maybe better it sounds like,
Any interest?

[LGAFF]

Guess I will go it alone......:frown:

PS: Cam emblems will now be $70 per :-D

[LGAFF]

Can someone with a digital caliper tell me stock ring thickess?

[Jagdpanzer]

Lee,
I checked the stock piston rings that came out of a 94 engine an the top and 2nd ring both measured 0.0681" (1.73 mm) and the oil ring 0.1378" (3.50 mm). Used an "old school" outside micrometer with a vernier scale.

[LGAFF]

Ordered a set, they feel comfortable with the sizing, I will take it to my local shop to have them check it out.

Ed took the time to review the ring with me......he told me he didn't know much but that he knows rings and there will not be any issues with flutter, etc.....said backspacing and side clearance will not be a problem

[Pete]

Lee,did you tell him they were for nykasil cylinders.

Pete

[LGAFF]

Pete the rings are in fact especially made for nikasil....think I am a god damn hack? Ok maybe I am

[LGAFF]

Well I checked the back clearance its fine, and side clearance is .004 vs stock at .0025-.003

Thoughts? Generic range given is .0015 to .003, I would think this includes cars running 10K RPM or more also


HELPFUL TIPS FOR RING FITTING AND SEATING All pistons (including new ones) should be checked for proper ring to groove clearances.

Ring to piston groove back clearance should be a MINIMUM of .005" deeper than radial wall dimension of piston ring. If piston ring sticks out of groove by any amount, you have the wrong rings (see fig.1).

Ring to groove side clearance should be a minimum of .0015 to a maximum of .003" (see fig.1).

[A26B]

One more helpful hint.... Excessive back clearance is not a good thing. Combined with "loose" side clearance, excessive back clearance has a negative effect on ring stability.

[LGAFF]

In reading federal mogel and others .002 to .004 is the recommended value.....several articles noted this is the minimum for allowing gas pressure to seal the ring against the piston wall.

I do not see these as having excessive back clearance.

I do not see ring flutter as an issue..apparently you need 840o RPM for this to happen

[A26B]

I do not know what the back clearance is Lee. You mentioned that it should be a minimum of 0.005" but if it is significantly greater, due to the ring cross section width, then stability does become an issue that will be exacerbated by higher side clearance. I'm more concerned about longevity than flutter.

Have you checked the ring cross section width & compared it to a new stock ring? I can get you that measurement from a new one if you like. This was one of the principal concerns with the Total Seal rings. It would be nice to resolve this.

[LGAFF]

See what you get on the measurement.....I will measure one here


1st ring side clearance is .004
2nd ring side clearance is .003

[LGAFF]

I see a difference of about -.0025 to -.003...

total seal is thinner

[LGAFF]

I will call total seal on Monday; the guy I spoke to was very confident that these would be fine...will send him a note and call. This is where having someone who is truly an expert in rings would help.

There is alot of info out there.....what is true and what is belief are hard to discern


I did send them the OEMs when I ordered them to compare

[A26B]

So happens I will be seeing A couple of real experts on the LT5 next weekend :-)

[LGAFF]

Used a caliper to measure the backspace on the piston, then measured it against the ring width, and check with feeler gauge: .016 on the Stock and .026 on the Total seal

[LGAFF]

I don't see anywhere that references too much backspacing.....the ring is actually pushed out against the liner due to compression.....so not sure what I should be referencing.....

Any clues? I did send a note to total seal on specs

[LGAFF]

Should have just went with a damn 368

[LGAFF]

Maybe I should just buy a Callaway

[LGAFF]

Lee,
I checked the stock piston rings that came out of a 94 engine an the top and 2nd ring both measured 0.0681" (1.73 mm) and the oil ring 0.1378" (3.50 mm). Used an "old school" outside micrometer with a vernier scale.


Per the box these rings are 1.75, 1.75 and 3.5

[LGAFF]

Message body

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH THE RINGS.



Thank You


Ed Law
Technical Sales
Total Seal, Inc.
22642 North 15th Ave.
Phoenix AZ 85027
PH (800) 874-2753 or (623) 587-7400
Fax (623) 587-7600

http://us.f455.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=1%5f4441424%5fAGvFtEQAAMe%2fTjatKw0NC UaXfZ4&pid=2.2&fid=Inbox&inline=1
www.totalseal.com (http://www.totalseal.com/)

On Jul 30, 2011, at 5:08 PM, Lee Gaffigan wrote:

Just wanted to check with you

Side clearance on top ring is .004
2nd ring is .003

Stock is .002 to .003

Backspace is .026 vs stock at .016

Any concern with backspace or top ring?

[LGAFF]

Called total seal; .040 is when you start to have back clearance issues.

[Pete]

Lee,use the Total Seal rings and if they work we have another source for stock replacement rings,if not no biggie yank the motor and change to stock OE rings and done,it's some good R&D.


What's the part # on these Total Seal rings.

Pete

[LGAFF]

Mine show as Custom order.....they advised these are the widest rings out there on the market right now......nothing closer. Easiest way to access is to have them check under my name. Calling Wiseco and a few piston companies to see what pistons would cost that use a more common size..like LS1/LS6 3.898


ZR-1 CORVETTE5.7L90-UP 3.89899.009 1.75 1.75 3.5 T1031 CR1031STDS/RSTD

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Lee,

You should be good to go and I know when I was contemplating the issue I had consulted with several builders. I had a little more clearance than what you are showing so I had concern with those rings and used OEM instead since I was able to get the last of loose sets from Jerry. Two of the builders knew of the ring issues from Total Seal and one used them. He said he could not notice any issues if there were. Even though I did not take a chance on them, I bought a back up set since I got it for a little over $120 as those rings I felt were better than no rings.:cheers:

Craig

[LGAFF]

I spoke to 2 other companies, they stated that they will not be an issue...


Wow this is a PITA

[LGAFF]

Good info, note one poster is a mech eng/engine builder....

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/lt-5-piston-ring-issue-202955.html#post1451599

[tomtom72]

Soooo, one builder thinks that the extra clearance is from wear (on the piston)?

Also, one builder thinks that it's okay but he is speaking in terms of a "hard wall" and a "hard piston" ( aka forged piston?, but ours are cast ) vs a cast iron bore and a cast piston.


btw, thanks for the link Lee.
:cheers:

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Lee,

I'm sure you'll get some good input from Jerry and maybe he is consulting with Graham Beham and I don't know if there is better information out there than what would come from him. :cheers:

What I don't understand is why Total Seal did not just reproduce the specs from the stock rings if they are going to claim the application fitment. I felt the same way when I was going by FSM specs and their rings did not meet specs of GM/Lotus engineers.

[LGAFF]

My understanding(an I know "0" about piston ring manufacturing).....is that this is the widest ring that they can get, period.

Pistons can be shimmed to accept other rings with some minor piston mods, and probably cheaper than going 368.

[A26B]

I have made the following illustration to clarify what I am referring to, when I expressed concern about aftermarket piston ring side clearance combined with cross-sectional width issues.

1. I am not stating for fact that Total Seal rings are too thin and too narrow and should not be used with OEM pistons.

2. What appears to be fact from measurements made during LT5 engine work by individuals posting here who are/have been involved in such work, is the side clearance of Total Seal rings in an OEM piston is greater than an OEM ring in the same piston.

3. What appears to be fact from the same sources and others i have spoken with, is the cross-section width of Total Seal rings is less than OEM.

4. The dimensional differences may or may not have any detrimental effect on engine performane or durability. I simply do not know.

5. The amount of excessive back-clearance due to a narrower cross-section width, is not of concern to me, as much as the combination of a thinner ring combined with a decreased cross-section width.

However, given a couple of well known facts pertaining to the subject, such as

1. Piston ring grooves DO wear, i.e. rings DO move in the piston groove
2. Pistons do rock in the cylinder, i.e. piston slap
3. Pistons normally stay centered in the cylinder during operation

I think it is reasonable to assume (in a stock LT5 piston and all other factors being constant) that a ring that is thinner and has less cross-sectional width that a stock ring, will move more in the piston ring groove. Accordingly, I also think it is reasonable to assume that the ring and piston will wear with a resultant decrease in longevity. Attempting to quantify the decrease would, at best, be a wild assed guess. Obvoiusly, the greater the differences (increase in side clearance and reduction in cross-section width) the more effect.

Like any experienced engineer, always add a caveat. Here's mine. Nothing herein is to be construed or misconstrued as a detrimental statement, fact or otherwise, regarding Total Seal piston rings.

Empirical data always supercedes theoretical, so try 'em & see if you really want to know for sure.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z224/A26B/OEMvsAMRingDwg.jpg

[LGAFF]

Great stuff Jerry...I am waiting doing more research...as my intent is to potentially sell this motor......

I will say a worn pistion groove is not the issue here, as I have 3 sets and all are the same. I did note that the piston side clearance on a few other 5K pistons I checked was about .03...so we are talking about .01 difference. I also see that .04 side clearance is not abnormal by most standards. Given my choice, I would like to see .02, but options are limited. I am currently looking a shim options