More confusing parts to the puzzle. - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

captcorvette · 10-04-2012

As some of you may remember I have been having VATs issues forever. So here is a quick update.

Wanted to let the cobwebs clear out so did not touch the car for the last month. It was sitting at my home parking. School year starting and my schedule at a constant Mach II so no time to worry over it. School work settled down, weather good enough to ride the scooters and patience level increased sufficiently to want the Z here at my hobby shop for me to continue being more puzzled.

Had my recovery driver go to my house and pick up the car to transport to my shop. As the car was rolling off the recovery i opened the diver door and the non working horn decided to go into its "theft" mode. This is the first time i have ever heard the horn so I shocked to say the least. Horn blaring so I inserted the key and turned the switch on. No change as the horn continued to aggravate me and everyone else in the shop.

For grins and giggles I take the key out of the ignition put it into the door and turn the key in the unlock direction. No resistance so that indicates to me that the door was indeed in the unlocked position and of course the recovery driver and i had both opened the door. Recycled the key to the lock then the unlocked position and the horn stops.

OK so I check the steering wheel buttons and the horn will not work on either button. Then the penny drops. I had been watching the "security" light flash as it had been doing all the times last month when I was trying to get the car to engage the starter but then the security light went off indicating that the system had recognized the pellet and the VATs was working properly. What the hey I decided to try and start the bloody car. Fired right up.

Starting correctly for the last two days. Horn still will not work from the steering wheel, headlights still will come on but not rotate to up position. Warning panel clear except for the "full power" when I turn the valet key it illuminates the full power light.

Needless to say I am more confused than ever. This car has Marc's chip and it has the "no vats" setting. Next bit of news? The Tech I just purchased will not power up in this car. The cigarette lighter plug that comes with it had a green light which does illuminate when inserted into the socket. However my Tech Scan 7000 does work with this car.

Think I ought to rename this car Christine?

Not sure if it is "possesed" but it sure does make ole Yogi here feel stupid.

tomtom72 · 10-04-2012

I'm not 100 % sure about this but I think that the VATS and the intruder alert system are two different systems that are not tied to each other.....

I think that is maybe not the best explanation, but they're not interconnected nor are they dependent upon each other.

I also would like to toss this out as a fwiw

I had been chasing a random no start condition in my friend's 90ZR-1 and as best as I could tested all the individual components in the starting circuit and the VATS system. I found nothing. His random no start was a broken wire at the ignition lock key cylinder inside the steering column. In order to repair it the column had to removed from the car and then taken apart to get to actually see the broken wire on the lock cylinder/key switch. The mechanics of the issue of the broken wire inside the column is that the wire breaks at it's solder point and can't go very far away from the cylinder. This causes a no start to be random.

I don't know that this would be of any help in your diagnosing the no start condition in your car. I would just add that I learned from listening to camaro and firebird techs that the C4 column is the same as those cars, and that this broken wire/random no start is a known fault in those cars. These techs told me that it is a case of 10 lbs of stuff in a 5 lb bag, and that's why the wire breaks.

Tom

mike100 · 10-04-2012

I do know that you can run the horn circuit with the Tech1 i/o diagnostics. Basically it activates the relay for the horn on a separate wire. Most likely your horn switch in the steering wheel is broken. Those are actually easy to fix, you just need to remove the airbag with the screws on the back of the wheel.

The lock cylinder isn't too much farther back. Once the wheel is removed, you can get the turn signal stuff out of the way and access the lock cyl and vats circuit connector. I have found the pictorials on the internet good enough to figure out how to do it. You do need a steering wheel puller tool- nothing else is very special. well...some patience with the bright light switch (and some really thick grease to hold it in place to defy gravity).

captcorvette · 10-04-2012

Thanks for the extra info and help. The only reason I thought they were tied together somehow is that the flashing "security" light and the no start always happen together. Not one without the other. I have had the steering column out once by a friend of mine. Might have to take it out again just to check it all out.

Now I am wondering if the driver's door lock might be dodgy?

Not sure if I messed up my Tech I. Will not get power now for some reason. However the Tech 7000 is reading the OBD socket but it is very limited on what it provides me as far as I can tell.

At least it is starting, running and has put the permigrin back!

mike100 · 10-04-2012

check the fuse that should be in the 12v adapter for the tech1.

captcorvette · 10-14-2012

More confusion please. Got brave last night and drove the Z from my shop to the mall. No issues. Still have not figured out what happened to the headlight motors but no problem I just hand spun the knobs to get the headlights up and drove home. (24 kms) No issues. Parked the car inside the villa wall and shut her down. Was feeling sort of frisky about being able to drive the damn thing-----until this morning. Had not touched ANYTHING, had not locked the door since inside the 8 foot high walls. Tried to start it this morning? Yep you guessed it. Security light back on and no starter engagement. Didn't have time to mess with it at 5 in the morning so just left it at home and rode with The Boss (my lovely bride of 25 years). She didn't even rub it in about my favorite toy not working but less than a dozen times over the past couple of years. She has a good heart. Me? Took me most of the morning to stop thinking of ways to teach this car to swim.

Going to have to find a much better spark chaser than me or anyone else I have found at any of the agencies.

Oh yeah and the Tech I is fried. Looks like it has been opened more than a screen door in the summer with a house full of kids.

Pete · 10-14-2012

Check/try a couple of things.

Clutch switch? common problem in these, most bypass them.

Try another ignition key just in case the pallet in your key is worn out.

Check and see if you get voltage to the big fat purple wire when you try and start the engine wire is in the big wire loom near or under the ECM
look in the loom of wires for the fat purple wire

Check the above and get back to us.

Pete

captcorvette · 10-14-2012

Thanks Pete, I have a total of 4 ignition keys. 3 new ones and one original. All have been ohm checked to make sure they have the correct value. Problem same with all the keys. When the "security" light comes on none of the keys will work.

When I first started having the VATs problem I purchased all the clutch switch stock I could find. (4 units). Checked the switch in situ and after removing it with one of the new ones. Same problem so put the old working switch back. Remainder are sitting on my Z panic shelf.

Just in case I replaced all the door plunger switches also. If memory serves this is the same switch as the clutch switch but not sure as I might be having a "senior" moment regarding both switches being the same.

But just for grins and giggles as soon as I get home this evening (its now lunchtime thirty) will check the clutch, door plunger switches, cycle the door locks---again.

scottfab · 10-14-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by captcorvette

Thanks Pete, I have a total of 4 ignition keys. 3 new ones and one original. All have been ohm checked to make sure they have the correct value. Problem same with all the keys. When the "security" light comes on none of the keys will work.

I'd stay focused on the flashing security light. Forget the clutch switch for now. It's not involved with the flashing light.
Even more sounds like the wire to the lock cylinder to me. Do you have the stock chip for the ECM? Getting things stock for troubleshooting may give us all a baseline position from which to troubleshoot.

captcorvette · 10-14-2012

I agree with you Scott. I have always like to work on the KISS principle.

HOWEVER I just got home after the car sitting all day. Put the same key in the switch and the bloody thing started right up. Car has not been touched as I made sure to tell the house boy to not touch the car at all. Key was right where I left it this morning on the panel next to the shifter where the ash tray is.

If it will start in the morning will drive it back to the shop so when I have time can tear into it again.

I think it is time to take a poll to see if this car should be named Christine eh?

10-04-2012	#1
captcorvette Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates Posts: 449	More confusing parts to the puzzle. As some of you may remember I have been having VATs issues forever. So here is a quick update. Wanted to let the cobwebs clear out so did not touch the car for the last month. It was sitting at my home parking. School year starting and my schedule at a constant Mach II so no time to worry over it. School work settled down, weather good enough to ride the scooters and patience level increased sufficiently to want the Z here at my hobby shop for me to continue being more puzzled. Had my recovery driver go to my house and pick up the car to transport to my shop. As the car was rolling off the recovery i opened the diver door and the non working horn decided to go into its "theft" mode. This is the first time i have ever heard the horn so I shocked to say the least. Horn blaring so I inserted the key and turned the switch on. No change as the horn continued to aggravate me and everyone else in the shop. For grins and giggles I take the key out of the ignition put it into the door and turn the key in the unlock direction. No resistance so that indicates to me that the door was indeed in the unlocked position and of course the recovery driver and i had both opened the door. Recycled the key to the lock then the unlocked position and the horn stops. OK so I check the steering wheel buttons and the horn will not work on either button. Then the penny drops. I had been watching the "security" light flash as it had been doing all the times last month when I was trying to get the car to engage the starter but then the security light went off indicating that the system had recognized the pellet and the VATs was working properly. What the hey I decided to try and start the bloody car. Fired right up. Starting correctly for the last two days. Horn still will not work from the steering wheel, headlights still will come on but not rotate to up position. Warning panel clear except for the "full power" when I turn the valet key it illuminates the full power light. Needless to say I am more confused than ever. This car has Marc's chip and it has the "no vats" setting. Next bit of news? The Tech I just purchased will not power up in this car. The cigarette lighter plug that comes with it had a green light which does illuminate when inserted into the socket. However my Tech Scan 7000 does work with this car. Think I ought to rename this car Christine? Not sure if it is "possesed" but it sure does make ole Yogi here feel stupid. Last edited by captcorvette; 10-04-2012 at 02:19 AM.

10-04-2012	#2
tomtom72 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL USA Posts: 4,645	Re: More confusing parts to the puzzle. I'm not 100 % sure about this but I think that the VATS and the intruder alert system are two different systems that are not tied to each other..... I think that is maybe not the best explanation, but they're not interconnected nor are they dependent upon each other. I also would like to toss this out as a fwiw I had been chasing a random no start condition in my friend's 90ZR-1 and as best as I could tested all the individual components in the starting circuit and the VATS system. I found nothing. His random no start was a broken wire at the ignition lock key cylinder inside the steering column. In order to repair it the column had to removed from the car and then taken apart to get to actually see the broken wire on the lock cylinder/key switch. The mechanics of the issue of the broken wire inside the column is that the wire breaks at it's solder point and can't go very far away from the cylinder. This causes a no start to be random. I don't know that this would be of any help in your diagnosing the no start condition in your car. I would just add that I learned from listening to camaro and firebird techs that the C4 column is the same as those cars, and that this broken wire/random no start is a known fault in those cars. These techs told me that it is a case of 10 lbs of stuff in a 5 lb bag, and that's why the wire breaks. Tom __________________ 1990 ZR-1, Black/grey, #2233, stock. ZR-1 Net Reg Founding Member #316 & NCM member

10-04-2012	#3
mike100 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: San Marcos CA Posts: 1,802	Re: More confusing parts to the puzzle. I do know that you can run the horn circuit with the Tech1 i/o diagnostics. Basically it activates the relay for the horn on a separate wire. Most likely your horn switch in the steering wheel is broken. Those are actually easy to fix, you just need to remove the airbag with the screws on the back of the wheel. The lock cylinder isn't too much farther back. Once the wheel is removed, you can get the turn signal stuff out of the way and access the lock cyl and vats circuit connector. I have found the pictorials on the internet good enough to figure out how to do it. You do need a steering wheel puller tool- nothing else is very special. well...some patience with the bright light switch (and some really thick grease to hold it in place to defy gravity).

10-04-2012	#4
captcorvette Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates Posts: 449	Re: More confusing parts to the puzzle. Thanks for the extra info and help. The only reason I thought they were tied together somehow is that the flashing "security" light and the no start always happen together. Not one without the other. I have had the steering column out once by a friend of mine. Might have to take it out again just to check it all out. Now I am wondering if the driver's door lock might be dodgy? Not sure if I messed up my Tech I. Will not get power now for some reason. However the Tech 7000 is reading the OBD socket but it is very limited on what it provides me as far as I can tell. At least it is starting, running and has put the permigrin back! Last edited by captcorvette; 10-04-2012 at 11:31 AM.

10-04-2012	#5
mike100 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: San Marcos CA Posts: 1,802	Re: More confusing parts to the puzzle. check the fuse that should be in the 12v adapter for the tech1.

10-14-2012	#6
captcorvette Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates Posts: 449	Re: More confusing parts to the puzzle. More confusion please. Got brave last night and drove the Z from my shop to the mall. No issues. Still have not figured out what happened to the headlight motors but no problem I just hand spun the knobs to get the headlights up and drove home. (24 kms) No issues. Parked the car inside the villa wall and shut her down. Was feeling sort of frisky about being able to drive the damn thing-----until this morning. Had not touched ANYTHING, had not locked the door since inside the 8 foot high walls. Tried to start it this morning? Yep you guessed it. Security light back on and no starter engagement. Didn't have time to mess with it at 5 in the morning so just left it at home and rode with The Boss (my lovely bride of 25 years). She didn't even rub it in about my favorite toy not working but less than a dozen times over the past couple of years. She has a good heart. Me? Took me most of the morning to stop thinking of ways to teach this car to swim. Going to have to find a much better spark chaser than me or anyone else I have found at any of the agencies. Oh yeah and the Tech I is fried. Looks like it has been opened more than a screen door in the summer with a house full of kids.

10-14-2012	#7
Pete Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Chicagoland,IL Posts: 2,680	Re: More confusing parts to the puzzle. Check/try a couple of things. Clutch switch? common problem in these, most bypass them. Try another ignition key just in case the pallet in your key is worn out. Check and see if you get voltage to the big fat purple wire when you try and start the engine wire is in the big wire loom near or under the ECM look in the loom of wires for the fat purple wire Check the above and get back to us. Pete __________________ '91 #1635 PoloGreen 350 LT5 11.09 @ 129.27 11.04 @ 128.86 474RWHP 400RWTQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFNFOhGGlR4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlRIOMwaDYY https://sites.google.com/site/peteszr1garage Last edited by Pete; 10-14-2012 at 04:24 AM.