New Persepctive (for me) on Dreaded No Start

[ZR1North]

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

[XfireZ51]

Originally Posted by ZR1North

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

[Paul Workman]

Originally Posted by ZR1North

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

Although there are a couple R&R items, e.g., 90-92 OEM injectors, and maybe even the secondary system (or just delete it!), I don't subscribe to shotgunning a problem i.e., "replacing parts till the problem goes away", IF in fact that was your suggestion (might not be - just my take on it). But, I understand the frustration prompting you post.

Maybe 80-90% of the starter problems appear to be rooted in the internal high-current contacts actuated by the solenoid. And, apparently, the clutch interlock safety switch maybe a problem even more so. Point being, the rest of the parts e.g., the solenoid itself or the starter windings, starter (switch) relay, and even the battery, fall back in the shadows.

So, just IMO, I'd not favor wholesale replacement, in this case. But, I'd be interested to know what exactly IS the problem this time, and go from there.

FWIW,

P.

[tomtom72]

I'm going to jump in here, if I may. with my two cents. I've been chasing this issue on my Z-Brother's 90, Lou from CT. This has been a bane since he bought the car back in 05.

I would like to offer up something that I read waaaay back in 04 over at CF in the C4 section. It was an alternative cause for the dreaded no start after ya did all the usual stuff with no good results. Yea, I can't seem to locate the thread, but I didn't look for more than 10 minutes also! The info I offer up involves the key switch and a wire that in the too close confines of the column interior space has a tendency to break from it's soldered terminus point. Since there is no room for the wire to actually go anywhere it becomes an "intermittent" non-connection in that it is broken off at the solder joint, but doesn't have the room to actually put physical distance between the broken end and the terminus.

I wish I could be more detailed. I should have printed out the thread. I just made a note on the margin of my FSM in the steering column section of the fact that this break does happen. Sorry


Tom

I should say that I was reminded of this wire breaking issue by a shop near Lou that brought this issue up as it seems to plague Camaros and Firebirds from the early 90's & late 80's also. I guess we all use the VATS system and their steering columns are the same or similar to a C4's???? Anyway this was the first thing the mechanic said after the usual suspects were run to ground and found not to be the cause of the no start. Food for thought???

[XfireZ51]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

Sorry, but I meant to write that starter rebuild IS a good idea.

[ZR1North]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

What's the point of bypassing the clutch switch if the starter components are worn such that they don't perform when heat soaked? Mods are not a good substitute for maintenance in my view.

[XfireZ51]

Starter rebuild AND clutch bypass both help w no-start. I have both on the Black Rose and no problem in 95d heat days.

[Kevin]

had this same problem when I bought the car in 99, bypassed the clutch switch, never had an issue again

[ZR1North]

Originally Posted by ZR1North

What's the point of bypassing the clutch switch if the starter components are worn such that they don't perform when heat soaked? Mods are not a good substitute for maintenance in my view.

Sorry x-fire; didn't see your follow-up post before my latest post.

Re the ignition switch wire - my only question would be - why does the no crank only manifest itself when the engine bay is hot? After getting the car home last Monday, I lifed the clam shell to help exhaust the heat. After 10 minutes (and what I thought was a "click" under the plenium), it fired up right away - that after waiting 30 minutes in the parking lot (without the hood open) without success. Evidence seems stacked against premature wear of starter components.

[scottfab]

Unfortunately it's not always the column wiring nor is it always the clutch switch, nor battery, nor dirty key contacts.

I wish I could find it but can't right now.
There is a well trod path for the most efficient way to find the cause.
It's four steps. I will try to regurgitate it now.
This could very well be off.

1. Check for security light flashing first. The key contacts on the resistive button can be come slightly contaminated. If it's flashing wipe the key off and wait 4min then try again.

2. Check battery voltage. Even a slightly low battery voltage can and does cause a "no start"

3. Temporarily bypass the clutch switch ( warning: safety issue to permanently bypass this switch. I don't recommend it)

4. This part is from email dating to 2001 but I have similar dating to 97.
It is very instructive for getting out of being stranded with a "no start".
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I've been fighting this problem for quite a while. I finally determined that the problem is the sum of a series of voltage drops in the entire starting circuit ( clutch switch, starter enable relay, solenoid connection etc.) The wire to the starter solenoid is a large purple # 12 wire that can be accessed in the computer harness in the engine compartment. This wire can be found by moving the black plastic coil sheath back away from the computer side of the harness. Locate the large purple wire in the harness, then take a voltmeter and pierce the purple wire and measure the voltage relative to the engine block ( or any good ground ) while attempting to start the engine. In my case I was only measuring 7.5 volts to the solenoid ( purple wire ). I don't know the precise voltage required to engage the solenoid, but it is certainly considerably more than 7.5 Volts. I decided that I could validate my findings by using a needle tipped probe that would pierce the purple wire insulation, and with the ignition on, car in neutral, and parking brake set, touch the other end of the probe to the positive battery terminal. Eureka!! I can now start the car anytime, anywhere if the normal starting circuits fail. I suspect that the major losses in the starting circuit are the clutch switch and the starter enable relay located under the dash. I'll be replacing each of these soon, but it is consoling to know that I can start the car now if needed without having to rely on help pushing the car. Hope this helps those of you who have been the victim of the PHANTOM no-start condition.
James Britt
1991 # 2014
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