Close to an end? Obama an illegal.

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by John Boothby

You guys do realize that without the draft (as it was in my day) the percentage of Americans that do choose to put "their all" on the line for our great country is dwindling. The "Citizen Soldier" is going to be a ghost of the past, in favor of the career soldiers. Personally, I am in favor of a draft. To much has fallen on too few the last 10 years!

I've often thought Israel has a great idea.
All must serve in one capacity of another.
I served 4yrs working to make military and shuttle radios at Rockwell .
Not exactly front line but then most grunts that serve
aren't Navy Seal types either.
I had one work for me for 6 yrs. Certainly a different kind
of worker for sure.

[Eric24]

Originally Posted by scottfab

I've often thought Israel has a great idea.
All must serve in one capacity of another.
I served 4yrs working to make military and shuttle radios at Rockwell .
Not exactly front line but then most grunts that serve
aren't Navy Seal types either.
I had one work for me for 6 yrs. Certainly a different kind
of worker for sure.

Not sure what you mean by, "not exactly front line but then most grunts that serve aren't Navy Seals types either"....?

"I had one work for me for 6 yrs. Certainly a different kind of worker for sure"?

If your saying the only worthy combat Soldier are Navy Seals then we have an issue. If your not then we wont have an issue. There are no more FRONT LINES over there, as a Infantry Soldier, I would like to think that we are the ones fighting the fight, but now days anyone over there will get some action or be near some action. Now, the Infantry Solider or Soldiers attached to Infantry units will get the brunt of the action, we live in the hornets nest, we take it from the bad guys, and we dish it out almost everyday. We dont pick and choose our battles like some units get to, nor do we get to do 3-6 month rotations like most units do.

I appreciate everyone who goes over there and when the dust settles, i dont care what branch your in, I will try to protect you to the fullest.

Just dont say because of what you read, or hear about that Seals are the top dog or do most of the action, again, not sure what you really meant by those sentences but i felt like it was a negative jab at grunts.

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by Eric24

Just dont say because of what you read, or hear about that Seals are the top dog or do most of the action, again, not sure what you really meant by those sentences but i felt like it was a negative jab at grunts.

I was referring to "me" as being like a regular grunt in what I was doing.
There are several elite branches of each service I could have compared to. I was just picking oneo. I picked the one I was most familiar with due to the former seal that worked for me.
He was unpretentious, intense and a great problem solver. He impressed the hell out of me.
I am sure that all the services have better training and see more action than Seals. But I do know he saw enough and I know Seal Team 6 saw some recently. It could have been given to a different branch will the same results.

[Eric24]

Originally Posted by John Boothby

You guys do realize that without the draft (as it was in my day) the percentage of Americans that do choose to put "their all" on the line for our great country is dwindling. The "Citizen Soldier" is going to be a ghost of the past, in favor of the career soldiers. Personally, I am in favor of a draft. To much has fallen on the shoulders of too few the last 10 years!

I agree with to much has fallen on the current Soldier, and i have continued to see people enlist into the Army at least. I had a 42 year old sign up just so he could do his part for his country. I dont see any issues with people signing up, shoot, now HE is trying to down size the military, so i dont think we need a draft.

I do think people should have to serve for at least a few years, South Korea makes there kids do it as well. I understand that it would be a night mare for the U.S. to start this and that it will never happen but maybe then some people would appreciate this country more.

I was in the Army when they brought people back for Desert Storm, it was ugly, they were out of shape, disgruntle, and most of them turned into a huge LEADERSHIP challenge.

[John Boothby]

Originally Posted by Eric24

I was in the Army when they brought people back for Desert Storm, it was ugly, they were out of shape, disgruntle, and most of them turned into a huge LEADERSHIP challenge.

The draft did bring in undesirables. Those can be weeded out. I just think that military service builds character and instills discipline that appears to be lacking in younger people these days. My cousin's grandson was just discharged from the USMC after a tour in Afghanastan. Before he inlisted he was a handful and had no idea what he wanted to do. Now he is focused on a career in psychology and law inforcement. Another kid brought back from the dark side!!

By the way, you do want a trooper that is a LITTLE pissed off!! We were a pretty eclectic group!!

[Eric24]

I had the honor of being a Drill Sergeant for 3 years, i saw alot of changes in those 3 years for sure. I had dads even crying saying that could not beleive the change in their son, it was pretty cool seeing the kids come on day 1 and the change in them on the last day.

It i s super hard now days to kick the crappy kids out of the Army, with some good old school changes coming back maybe it will help a little but it is such a drain on the NCO's now days to get someone out. You end up spending all your time escorting dirt bags around and spending what little off time you have off with them.

I totoally understand what your saying about the draft etc..and there will always be a leadership challenge in anything you do.

[John Boothby]

Funny you should bring up Israel. My neighbor is a naturalized American citizen, an Israeli. He was a Major in the Army and served on the Egyptian front during the 72 war.

I have had many talks with him regarding Israel and their Army. First, Israel has a socialistic economic system. They have state funded medical. Their taxes are very high. They have manditory military service for EVERYONE, including women. They do have exceptions. When you get out of the service, they will pay for your education at the University. In addition, while in the service you pay no taxes.

Israel is a land of about 7 million and they are surrounded by many times that number of arabs, their sworn enemy. They are determined to protect their nation by any means necessay. They welcome American aide, however, they will take whatever military steps are necessary to defend their country regardless of the USA's wishes.

Scott, you are right, it takes a team. God Bless them all!!

[vandornjim]

Originally Posted by scottfab

<snip>
And I am so glad the founders saw the error to and did not include a requirement of service in the armed forces else we'd be permanently lead by those that have advance in those ranks rather than the best (most popular) citizen.

Interesting enough, EVERY POTUS since (& including) Truman has served in the military EXCEPT for Clinton and Obama. Some were THE most popular President's in this country's recent history, although many of their legacies weren’t.

Unlike ScotFab, I don't believe “popularity” is the most credible of qualifications. In fact, if that premise is used exclusively, I see it as eminent danger. The media plays too big a role in gaining popularity and keeping it. After all, Hitler was also “popular” once.

The reality of achievement, experience, sound judgment and discipline are major character traits which are focused upon especially, but not solely, with military experience.

Simply put, becoming the POTUS is NOT the time to learn about how our military, the most powerful in the world, works. And if it comes to that (like today) you had better listen to your generals, consult the Congress (as required but ignored today), and above all, support your troops (and your country) with everything you can, 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by John Boothby

I think Obama has done a stand up job regardless of the uncomprimising Tea Party Repubs that have tried to block every move he has made to try to fix what they created!

Always interesting when the defense mechanisms come out. The good ‘ol Blame Game. Happens every time when someone can’t perform. In golf it’s “the greens weren’t good enough”, in ball it’s “all the ref’s fault”. And how many times have I heard “it was like that when it came in” here in my own shop. I don’t give a Sh!t. It’s here, it has a problem, SO WE FIX IT! Just remember though, if you can’t fix it, or refuse to, then we allow someone ELSE fix it.

Originally Posted by Eric24

What we need is a strong, confident, Leader, one who is truly proud to be an American.

Amen Eric and we can’t thank you enough for your service. Boothby raises his experience in the VN war. Although a valiant effort on our troops behalf, that should always stand as THE largest single mistake in our nation’s history. Like Afghanistan, it too was NOT a declared war but our troops were sent regardless of our Constitution (many against their will), because we didn’t use the word “war”. It was merely an “armed conflict”. What happened after that was nothing less than a capital offense. Our very own government misled its citizens at home, while refusing to let our troops win. When it was all over, what did we accomplish again? I forget.

Sound familiar yet?

The Russians tried but failed but we’re there (Afghanistan) regardless. For what? To try and change a society that is so primitive you couldn’t even begin to make sense out of it. Where women are maimed or killed by men with no penalty? Where children have their hands cut off if they accept a candy or even attend school? Where the main export of the land is heroin? But more importantly, it’s where thousands of our troops have been killed and the remainder deeply insulted when our Commander in Chief repeatedly apologizes to THEM (the Afghans) after putting us there in the first place! And after, when this is all said and done, what will we have accomplished? That remains to be seen...

Eric knows firsthand the effects of that, but he can’t talk about it. So I have…

Sometimes the facts are hard to deal with and may be very frustrating. It is hard to understand how ANY Commander in Chief, with no military experience, despite his general’s recommendations, could suggest we drastically cut our armed forces, in order cut costs….so we can hand out more entitlement checks and grow our government even larger.

Been to an airport lately? Maybe had one of them 60,000 TSA agents stick their finger up your….uh….waistband? Ever wonder what the TSA costs to operate? 8.1 BILLION (2012)

Wanna know how many terrorists they caught so far? Zero.

Wanna know how many children have been in tears while being illegally searched by a TSA complete stranger? About half the number of their parents who are too ignorant to know better.

Originally Posted by John Boothby

I was just being a Wise A..! Ha Ha!

Originally Posted by John Boothby

I don't want to get on the wrong side of Jim. I might need him some day!!
Thanks Jim, for your support of our little corner of the world!!

Don’t worry John. My feelings don’t get hurt very often. Either one of them….

[John Boothby]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
Don’t worry John. My feelings don’t get hurt very often. Either one of them….[/QUOTE]

Thank God!!

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by vandornjim

Interesting enough, EVERY POTUS since (& including) Truman has served in the military EXCEPT for Clinton and Obama. Some were THE most popular President's in this country's recent history, although many of their legacies weren’t.

There have been 16 presidents (answers.com) who have not served in the military. It would make as much sense to require that all supreme court justices serve as a prison guard. A president leads not just the military (commander and chief) but the citizens too. He has generals to advise him as did Bush when he got us in Afghanistan in 2001. (some may have forgot that in the blame Obama for everything game)

Originally Posted by vandornjim

Unlike ScotFab, I don't believe “popularity” is the most credible of qualifications. In fact, if that premise is used exclusively, I see it as eminent danger. The media plays too big a role in gaining popularity and keeping it. After all, Hitler was also “popular” once.

Unlike JVD I don't think our system of majority vote is a "qualification". It's a measure. But I'd have to agree there is a danger. The danger is made even more possible now that corporate financing of candidates is officially legal (recent supreme court ruling). Under that ruling a corporation has the rights of individuals to donate cash and there is no limit. Beware of the ads you're about to be barraged with.

Originally Posted by vandornjim

Simply put, becoming the POTUS is NOT the time to learn about how our military, the most powerful in the world, works. And if it comes to that (like today) you had better listen to your generals, consult the Congress (as required but ignored today), and above all, support your troops (and your country) with everything you can, 100% of the time.

When a rogue solder kills civilians I don't think blanket support for all troops is proper. A selective support is needed. Cutting back on military spending is a good idea. We were warned by Eisenhower about the military complex and I worked in that industry and saw the waste and corruption. Blind support for ANY entity is wrong in my opinion.

Originally Posted by vandornjim

Always interesting when the defense mechanisms come out.

It sure is JVD. It sure is.

Originally Posted by vandornjim

Boothby raises his experience in the VN war. Although a valiant effort on our troops behalf, that should always stand as THE largest single mistake in our nation’s history. Like Afghanistan, it too was NOT a declared war but our troops were sent regardless of our Constitution (many against their will), because we didn’t use the word “war”. It was merely an “armed conflict”. What happened after that was nothing less than a capital offense. Our very own government misled its citizens at home, while refusing to let our troops win. When it was all over, what did we accomplish again? I forget.

Exactly right. That's why I say blind support for any entity is an error. The were and are in conflicts we should never have been involved with. period
Yah we make mistakes. The trick is to not spend more lives and $ after bad.

Originally Posted by vandornjim

Sometimes the facts are hard to deal with and may be very frustrating. It is hard to understand how ANY Commander in Chief, with no military experience, despite his general’s recommendations, could suggest we drastically cut our armed forces, in order cut costs….so we can hand out more entitlement checks and grow our government even larger.

I don't see the connection. If I stop wasting money by not putting another handgun in my safe I don't think I'm doing it to buy more girl scout cookies.
What's wrong is wrong. Having an open ended military budget is wrong. The US has a history of cutting back military then refocusing the $ where it's needed most. I worked for military company when the B1 bomber was virtually dropped for a time. It was the right decision. The $ was focused on better technology.

Originally Posted by vandornjim

Been to an airport lately? Maybe had one of them 60,000 TSA agents stick their finger up your….uh….waistband? Ever wonder what the TSA costs to operate? 8.1 BILLION (2012)

Wanna know how many terrorists they caught so far? Zero.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...e-secret.shtml

Personally I feel safer knowing there is a TSA there.
I don't piss, whine and moan when I am hand searched. It's been going on internationally way before TSA. (low tech countries have been using this for a long time. My first experience was in 1998)

Personally I don't think Obama is the most charismatic or dynamic leader but he's no cheer leader or a bumbling fool. He's got us out of one hell hole and is working to get us out of the other. He authorized the seal team to use lethal force.
Not sure yet who I'll vote for but I sure as hell am not going to blame Obama for global warming or for the greedy bankers that tipped the economy into recession. I'm not even going to blame him for not being faster at correcting the mistakes of his predecessor.

I'm still proud to be an American but not always proud of what we do as a nation.