endurance record

[LancePearson]

Originally Posted by rkreigh

the 24 hour record means a lot to the ZR-1 brothers.

nothing in it besides the achievement. kinda like climbing mountains.

but trust me, going fast for a LONG time is a hoot.

if you think 140 is cool, try 200. once you're there you'll understand a whole lot better.

In 1999 context it was important. Today, I don't think so much.

It's an unrealistically long period to run anything at over 200 mph safely in my view.

If you look at modern high powered and fast engines they do not have long or reliable life expectancies. Just look at the F1 engine racing rules in detail and see how long an Indy 500 car engine lasts before being trashed. The ability to generate high speeds today is far more common than it was 25 years ago through technology. Most come with a decided lack of ability to do it for long periods with a very few exceptions.

Running 24 hours at 200 mph? Where can the average guy run his Z for ten minutes for even 140 or 150 mph without risking huge traffic fines and worse? A few closed open road races.

So, it isn't a matter of not understanding, it's a matter of not caring as it isn't relevant.

It would be far more fun to buy time from Bridgestone if they would let us and take 20 or 30 Z's and run ten or twenty laps on that very same track where the record was set with our owners driving their own cars. No circular track in Europe would be nearly as significant to this owner.

However, if it's your dream, have at it. I'd prefer something more down home, more relevant, more concrete personally.

Lance

[Fully Vetted]

Originally Posted by LancePearson

In 1999 context it was important. Today, I don't think so much.

Why? Why was it relevant 23 years ago but not today? What has changed?

Originally Posted by LancePearson

It's an unrealistically long period to run anything at over 200 mph safely in my view.

I would argue that 200 mph today is safer than 175 mph 23 years ago.

Originally Posted by LancePearson

If you look at modern high powered and fast engines they do not have long or reliable life expectancies. Just look at the F1 engine racing rules in detail and see how long an Indy 500 car engine lasts before being trashed. The ability to generate high speeds today is far more common than it was 25 years ago through technology. Most come with a decided lack of ability to do it for long periods with a very few exceptions.

The purpose of F1 and Indy car engines isn't to run 24 hours. That's like saying the drag cars don't last long enough to run in NASCAR. It's not that they don't have reliable life expectancies. That's not what they are designed to do. However, look at the LeMans cars. They do it all the time.

Originally Posted by LancePearson

Running 24 hours at 200 mph? Where can the average guy run his Z for ten minutes for even 140 or 150 mph without risking huge traffic fines and worse? A few closed open road races.

It's no different than in 1990.

Originally Posted by LancePearson

So, it isn't a matter of not understanding, it's a matter of not caring as it isn't relevant.

I completely disagree.

Originally Posted by LancePearson

It would be far more fun to buy time from Bridgestone if they would let us and take 20 or 30 Z's and run ten or twenty laps on that very same track where the record was set with our owners driving their own cars. No circular track in Europe would be nearly as significant to this owner.

I completely agree.

[LancePearson]

It's just opinions and I've stated mine so will not go further other than to answer one of your points. "...Why? Why was it relevant 23 years ago but not today? What has changed?"

Go back to the time and there were very serious marketing reasons for doing this then after 20 years of being gutted by the EPA and losing their flagship's record for speed and power. It started conceptually by Lloyd R. and others and was a very valid marketing reason to develop the car and engine for speed then show the world they were back to being fast and powerful. They wanted to sell cars. In that context in those times it was an astounding accomplishment that brought real relevance. Shame they didn't continue to develop the dohc and stuck with the old two valve pushrod instead in my view.

Hey, if it's your dream, go for it. As much as I love my lt5 I just don't share that dream.

Lance

[Hog]

Originally Posted by Fully Vetted

I wish there were categories for stock, modified and purpose built cars. I'm more interested in what the record would be for a bone stock car right off the line. Who cares what a modified or purpose built car can do. Then it just becomes a spending challenge more than anything else. I say run a stock car where the only changes allowed would be tires and safety equipment. In this case even our ZR-1's would be considered modified. They changed the gearing so they could run at those speeds and keep it under 6000 rpm because of the cavitation problem. What if they hadn't been allowed to do that and remain in the stock classification? Would the record have been broken? I still think it would have but the margin would've been much smaller.

A very slight change in gearing matter not, 3.45/3.54 to a 3.07 gear, big deal. Heck the 3.07 gear was still an available gearing choice in a Corvette. It only brought the engine rpm down about 700-800rpm. They could have added a single inch of tire and brought the rpm down 400rpm.


That gear swap means nothing in the big picture, they ran in 5th gear. Theoretically they could have ran a 2.56 rear gear and ran in 4th gear of the ZF. Would that mean the car isnt "stock", no, it just means it's optioned differently.

At the end they removed the throttle stop and ran over 190mph.

Remember the 5000mile wasnt an original goal as it only mattered in the US. The 5000km record made sense to much more of the world simply because of the metric system.

In my opinion, the Zedder that ran that endurance challege was a stock car with a stock LT5 installed. Stuff of legends.

peace
Hog

[Hog]

Originally Posted by LancePearson

It's just opinions and I've stated mine so will not go further other than to answer one of your points. "...Why? Why was it relevant 23 years ago but not today? What has changed?"

Go back to the time and there were very serious marketing reasons for doing this then after 20 years of being gutted by the EPA and losing their flagship's record for speed and power. It started conceptually by Lloyd R. and others and was a very valid marketing reason to develop the car and engine for speed then show the world they were back to being fast and powerful. They wanted to sell cars. In that context in those times it was an astounding accomplishment that brought real relevance. Shame they didn't continue to develop the dohc and stuck with the old two valve pushrod instead in my view.

Hey, if it's your dream, go for it. As much as I love my lt5 I just don't share that dream.

Lance

Easy there killer, yes, you've stated your opinion, a few times now. I think it would be great. You dont have to share a dream to think that some times things should be done, just because it's a milestone, or because "It would be cool." To be so blatantly opposed to such an endeavour is IMO, kinda "wet-blanketish".

I really dont think that the endurance record had as much marketing importance as you say it did. There were a few cars before the ZR-1, that met if not beat the ZR-1 acceleration wise. This endurance record wasnt going to make or break GM. Having "valid marketing ideas" simply to have an "excuse" to get funding wouldnt be a 1st in GM performance divisions. Look at all John Moss's toybox.


Once the Direct Injection technology from GM gets some "break-in"miles on it(the GEN 5 LT1 IS the 1st GM engine to have AFM/DOD on a manual trans-DI or not). An attempt using a C7 with the supercharged LT4 in a C7- version 4 ZR1 could possibly spun for GM and/or Chevrolet Performance involvement.
The C7 appears to have some good aero as well as racebred cooling methods for the engine and trans/rear dif. Maybe it could be the car to invest in to break the record.

For no reason other than it being another automotive milestone, that next step to take, it would rock for a Vette to "take it back". Like we wouldnt brag to our Ford/Mopar friends if a Stingray retook the record.
We'd ALL be proud as ****.

peace
Hog

[Meanmyz]

Originally Posted by Hog

This endurance record wasnt going to make or break GM.
Hog

Just something I wanted to throw in. I am not sure, but I can't remember GM bringing very much of a purse to the table. Tommy Morrison really had to work hard in getting money with sponsors. As it is, it really cost him ALOT of money and ALOT of headache in trying to get everything lined up.

I don't think Ralph Kramer's superiors (GM/Chevrolet marketing, were very keen on this effort. Or of being involved and/or risk involved to their employees (GM's employees) Heinricy or Minneker.

I think officially, they were there on their own time (as professional racers).

Anyway, Hib, or somebody can add, if they have anything to correct.

Goodyear, developing a special tire just for this run was a big help... For some reason, my memory says to the tune in the $250,000+ range...

[rkreigh]

for those who attended the 2010 gathering we learned quite a bit about what Morrison did to scrounge up funding, and yes goodyear kicked in the tire development which at the time was a huge amount, 250k sounds right.

another record attempt is all about bringing the record back to corvette and the usa to show the world that we build world class cars just like GM did with the ZR-1. it's hard for many to understand WHY this is important, it's a national pride thing, a corvette thing, an engineering thing.

and yes it takes a huge commitment in funding with ZERO return on investment unless we get creative.

look at nascar, top fuel, any form of racing. it's ALL about advertising. and that's where GM went wrong with the first run. it really didn't help sell the ZR-1 that much and only many years later did it help create "the legend" that is the ZR-1 today.

if we do it differently this time, it would be on speed channel, have professional videos done, and help all the contributors get the air time.

how about michelin for the tires?? new corvette tire brand has a "bad taste" in the USA's mind because they are french. but clearly they make great tires and have deep pockets. and Nardo is in their back yard.

keep in mind the ZR-1 and the C7 rollouts overseas, corvette is trying to penetrate the international market more than they have. it's important for the survival of the car, and being "world class" competitive is key! better products sell cars. GM is starting to understand that more and appealing to a global market is critical.

there are a lot of ways we can attract backers/contributors from many suppliers of the parts, tuners, ect... as they are hungry for the exposure and setting this record would give them world wide air time.

and making it a very collaborative effort, getting lots of sponsors involved, and getting lots of advertising exposure is what will make it a success.

and yes, I'd love to do it here in the USA, but the engineering reality is that NARDO is probably the only place in the world that has a track that is safe and setup for sustained high speed without the side loading on the tires. if anyone knows a better venue, please chime in, they may exist, and not be "accessible" to the general public.

there are a bunch of engineering tricks we can pull that GM didn't bother with, high speed refueling, much larger tanks, better brakes, and it's a "run what ya brung" so we can build whatever engine we want. a large displacement, low rpm, high torque engine, with the proper cooling, in maybe a C7 chassis (for the aero) would make this an attempt more realistic.

at the same time, we have "victory laps" for anyone who wants to get out on the track. even rent some cars, having a few high speed laps in exotic (vette or otherwise) is a thrill you'll not soon forget. I'm renting a lambo for $99 on a groupon in Aug, even if I don't go over the speed limit, it will be worth it!!

am I a dreamer, sure I am! I dreamed of someday owning a ZR-1. I've had 4 of them now. and continue to own one of the best of the best.

I dreamed of owning a nice Twin Turbo C5, got it. car is amazing.

everything worth having starts with a dream, and the vision to make it happen. this vision will take a small army, and a team of people that share the dream.

I have a feeling quite a few folks do. especially engineers that want to showcase their talents and show the world what they can do.

koniegsegg is an example of a small "world class" manufacturer with the ultimate commitment to innovation and quality that sets the bar higher for no other reason than the spirit of innovation. and with a "cost is no object, make the best" attitude, like GM had with the ZR-1, many good things can happen. like warren zevon said, "send lawyers, guns and money"

this record is very important to the ZR-1 gang, and maybe while less so with the corvette crowd in general, there are many that would like to see the record brought home.

the C7 ZR-1 (or whatever it ends up being called) may again have the cajones to take the record with some mods, but IMHO, a "purpose built" car, like the VW did with the Nardo, would be the ticket.

if anyone is interested, or would like to explore this, let me know. I hope to see this before 2020. it will take a few years to muster the funds, plan it out, and do it right.

trust me, others may share this passion and do it before us. and then the bar will only be set higher.

nothing about this is going to be safe!! talk to the original 24 hour record drivers, that track was CRAZY dangerous.

my favorite quote from the track worker "if you run off the track and wreck, you better hope you catch on fire or we probably won't find you until morning"

we all have NO idea, just how courageous that record attempt was.

another attempt at Nardo, would clearly be MUCH safer, even at the higher speeds.

time for me to write up the business proposal I guess, and see who bites!!

[LancePearson]

RkReigh,
Don't forget, there were people back then who knew the value of advertising what they had but GM was in some of those years losing $20 billion dollars a year and the chairman and president (Z champion) both lost their jobs and 21 factories were closed to try and keep the company from going bankrupt. Little wonder the ad money went to volume cars instead of very expensive, most expensive GM had ever tried to sell, the Z, instead when there was not enough to begin with.

Records are good things and the longer term point I'd like to submit is perhaps the best time to do it is when they change technology to something revolutionary like a dohc mid engine turbo rear drive in the Vette. then it would really be possible to emphasize the changes in performance records and measures. The things they are doing in the C7, and I love Corvettes, are pretty much line extensions on the engine, the interior, wind tunnel work on the exterior that their sports cars competitors have done for a few years now so it is only "new" to GM owners, not necessarily others. I'm kind of hoping the C7 is a short stint and the C8 is revolutionary. They didn't have the money in the recent bankruptcy to do the C7 other than as a line extension and things like direct injection into two valve pushrods, variable valve timing, new, heavier, better looking leather interior, etc. with body design for cooling and drag and all are really only new to Corvette, not to their competitors.

I really think they will have to at some point get revolutionary and was surprised they didn't do it with the soon to be C7. I understand why they didn't while in bankruptcy and the government bailing them out but my hopes are for something different down the line.

Then, records should be part of everything that gets done for that car to create demand and knowledge about it.

[Fully Vetted]

Originally Posted by LancePearson

...what would be worth doing is if GM ever (not likely) does something revolutionary and instead of pushing old two valve pushrod front engine, rear drive technology puts a dohc small turbo mid engine rear drive car as a Corvette. Then, it is worth setting both speed, endurance, racing records to publish something new and revolutionary. That would then be worth it for GM to publish the new and revolutionary car.

Just another two cents....

Here's a nickles worth to think about. If I'm GM/Chevrolet and I am absolutely committed to the "old pushrod two valve CIB front engine" architecture as it appears they are while everyone else is doing all the DOHC smaller displacement turbo engines then I would definitely have something to prove. What better way for them to prove this technology is not dead then to go out and set an endurance record?

[LancePearson]

Originally Posted by Fully Vetted

Here's a nickles worth to think about. If I'm GM/Chevrolet and I am absolutely committed to the "old pushrod two valve CIB front engine" architecture as it appears they are while everyone else is doing all the DOHC smaller displacement turbo engines then I would definitely have something to prove. What better way for them to prove this technology is not dead then to go out and set an endurance record?

they are already successful on two racing circuits with it, the Rolex DP and the Rolex GT circuits and have proved it quite well. I think they know that at some point they have to change from essentially the heritage of the 1955 265 small block GM engine two valve technology and simply didn't have the money in the bankruptcy to do it with the C7. I'd love to sit in the engineering councils at GM Corvette and hear what they are dreaming about doing. Hard to believe they are dreaming two valve pushrod, front engine naturally aspirated technology but maybe they are, David.

Oh, to be a fly on that wall. Those guys doubtless have one view and the economic realities of pushing what they have is another from the business side.

I'm not against records, setting them, but they should serve a purpose since it is such a huge effort in all ways. Goodyear developed the high speed tire for the technology not just for this car by the way. They sell speed rated tires across many sizes for more than just Corvettes so their $250,000 then was an investment for the future of speed tires I'd wager just used this platform to get it right on.

I'll be quiet now because you've heard my views which are just opinions based on the business aspects of cars mostly.

Lance