FS: 1991 ZR-1 Blk/Red only 4800 miles!!!

[Ccmano]

Per post #23 by the OP the new price is $28,900. Nice car!
H

[Z51JEFF]

Originally Posted by Ccmano

Per post #23 by the OP the new price is $28,900. Nice car!
H

Somebody’s going to get a smokin deal.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by Z51JEFF

Somebody’s going to get a smokin deal.

No offense, but that isn't a "smokin" deal. Valuation guides say that today the car is worth 28,500 if it is indeed in excellent condition. I would consider a smoking deal to be something less than than the average market price. So the seller is right on what the market is doing.

If it is indeed totally stock, then figure in short order it will need injectors, fuel pumps and gaskets (at a bare minimum). That is over a grand without labor.

But if you look at what 91s are selling for right now, it's not likely to be a quick sale at that price.

Very nice car though. Good luck with the sale.

[AnthonyGS]

The fact remains these cars are a bargain. The C5 Z06 is similarly a bargain. It’s pretty sad being the owner of such an awesome car that you can’t expect to break even on.

[Z51JEFF]

Originally Posted by spork2367

No offense, but that isn't a "smokin" deal. Valuation guides say that today the car is worth 28,500 if it is indeed in excellent condition. I would consider a smoking deal to be something less than than the average market price. So the seller is right on what the market is doing.

If it is indeed totally stock, then figure in short order it will need injectors, fuel pumps and gaskets (at a bare minimum). That is over a grand without labor.

But if you look at what 91s are selling for right now, it's not likely to be a quick sale at that price.

Very nice car though. Good luck with the sale.

When was the last time anybody saw a 4000 mile black/red 91 for sale? The price guides are a bit of a hit and miss issue,everybody knows that. Why is it the owners of these cars know the market so much better than the people that make the -price guides-?

[AnthonyGS]

Originally Posted by Z51JEFF

When was the last time anybody saw a 4000 mile black/red 91 for sale? The price guides are a bit of a hit and miss issue,everybody knows that. Why is it the owners of these cars know the market so much better than the people that make the -price guides-?

The price of a ZR-1 depends on your point of view. There simply are very few cars from the same vintage with comparable performance and they all cost close to original retail or more.... 911 turbo, 928 GTS, testarossa..... very expensive.

This makes the ZR-1 a bargain. However if you’re an owner and have kept things in great condition, fixed c4 issues and paid a fair price when you bought the car you will most likely sell for a considerable loss.

For these two reasons, anytime you bring up ZR-1 pricing you get a polarizing discussion. It’s sad to me that these cars do not get the respect they deserve.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by Z51JEFF

When was the last time anybody saw a 4000 mile black/red 91 for sale? The price guides are a bit of a hit and miss issue,everybody knows that. Why is it the owners of these cars know the market so much better than the people that make the -price guides-?

It drives me nuts when people use colors and low mileage to justify high pricing.

First, there are tons of rare color combos...they didn't make many cars total, made a lot of two colors each year, and offered a pile of colors. Is black on red particularly rare for a 91....not really. Black was the second most popular exterior color, with red being probably the third most popular interior color (behind saddle and gray). If you have one of the 5 black 91's with the steel blue interior, you have a rare color combo. Plus, despite rarity, black on black is more desirable. The best color combo vs. the worst color combo on cars of equal condition and mileage makes maybe a 5% difference in selling price from the 100s of cars I've seen for sale. And color is very subjective.

Low mileage makes a difference in selling price, but it's not a car for which low mileage is rare for its age....at all. Within the collector car world in general there are probably very few cars which have as high of a percentage of low mileage cars per total production numbers as the ZR1. Low mileage doesn't mean rare for these. There are hundreds of cars with less than 10k on the clock and probably 50% or more have less than 50k.

Originally Posted by AnthonyGS

The price of a ZR-1 depends on your point of view. There simply are very few cars from the same vintage with comparable performance and they all cost close to original retail or more.... 911 turbo, 928 GTS, testarossa..... very expensive.

This makes the ZR-1 a bargain. However if you’re an owner and have kept things in great condition, fixed c4 issues and paid a fair price when you bought the car you will most likely sell for a considerable loss.

For these two reasons, anytime you bring up ZR-1 pricing you get a polarizing discussion. It’s sad to me that these cars do not get the respect they deserve.

Part of what the zr1 suffers from is being manufactured on a platform that was shared with a very VERY pedestrian base model. So a zr1 was never easily identified on the street by the average person as a high performance car like the Porsche or Ferrari.

Of the cars you listed, the 911 turbo is the only one that is worth more than it's original MSRP. The 1992+ GTS is close, but if your look at the 1991 S4 which was only 34 less HP, it is worth half the GTS and nearly a third of the original msrp. Testarossas are break even right now on the high retail side, but if you've watched them at auction they are low and typically topping out in the low 120k range.

Part of this is the generation of car in general. On of the reasons the 911 remained so high even through these years is because they were using ancient technology and there is a perception that it is a more reliable car because of that. Mid 80's to late 90's cars will never have the collectability of their predecessors. Part of that is their unique appearance which sets them apart from generations before and after (square sharp edges). Part of it is complex electronics that are cost prohibitive to reproduce and unreliability of early complex electrical systems.

[lfalzarano]

Let the market do the talking and not the owners that treat the ZR-1 as an investment to become future wealth. This is a car to enjoy and be proud to own. Your grandchildren will be the ones reaping the appreciation of these cars and not you. Build a bridge and get over it in IMHO.


Lou

[AnthonyGS]

Originally Posted by spork2367

It drives me nuts when people use colors and low mileage to justify high pricing.

First, there are tons of rare color combos...they didn't make many cars total, made a lot of two colors each year, and offered a pile of colors. Is black on red particularly rare for a 91....not really. Black was the second most popular exterior color, with red being probably the third most popular interior color (behind saddle and gray). If you have one of the 5 black 91's with the steel blue interior, you have a rare color combo. Plus, despite rarity, black on black is more desirable. The best color combo vs. the worst color combo on cars of equal condition and mileage makes maybe a 5% difference in selling price from the 100s of cars I've seen for sale. And color is very subjective.

Low mileage makes a difference in selling price, but it's not a car for which low mileage is rare for its age....at all. Within the collector car world in general there are probably very few cars which have as high of a percentage of low mileage cars per total production numbers as the ZR1. Low mileage doesn't mean rare for these. There are hundreds of cars with less than 10k on the clock and probably 50% or more have less than 50k.




Part of what the zr1 suffers from is being manufactured on a platform that was shared with a very VERY pedestrian base model. So a zr1 was never easily identified on the street by the average person as a high performance car like the Porsche or Ferrari.

Of the cars you listed, the 911 turbo is the only one that is worth more than it's original MSRP. The 1992+ GTS is close, but if your look at the 1991 S4 which was only 34 less HP, it is worth half the GTS and nearly a third of the original msrp. Testarossas are break even right now on the high retail side, but if you've watched them at auction they are low and typically topping out in the low 120k range.

Part of this is the generation of car in general. On of the reasons the 911 remained so high even through these years is because they were using ancient technology and there is a perception that it is a more reliable car because of that. Mid 80's to late 90's cars will never have the collectability of their predecessors. Part of that is their unique appearance which sets them apart from generations before and after (square sharp edges). Part of it is complex electronics that are cost prohibitive to reproduce and unreliability of early complex electrical systems.

I disagree with your last sentiment completely. Go check prices on twin turbo Supras and FD RX-7s in the US. They are sky high for low mileage clean cars almost at retail when new or higher. These cars have electronics that make the ZR-1 seem simple and reliable.


People want what they want, and it can't be easily predicted or controlled. I think people want what they lusted for as a kid and couldn't have. That explains why no one is going after Model Ts or 32 T buckets now, because those generations are gone. Our dads all wanted muscle cars as they aged and drove prices through the roof. As they generation leaves us muscle car prices will fall. The current middle aged guys want Supras FD RX7s and Porsches. No one wants 300ZX turbos or Mitsu 3000 GTs though. And very few people want ZR-1s, like it or not, and that is keeping the price low and availability high and sales long.


I'm considering selling my ZR-1 and getting a really clean 944 turbo. Why, because as I age that 944 turbo is going to be worth a whole lot more even though it isn't nearly as much car performance wise. That's a car I can buy, drive on nice days, and leave to my kids and they can enjoy it or sell for a huge profit. The ZR-1 is never going to be that car no matter how much anyone wants it.


The reason air cooled 911s are so high is the perceived notion that the water cooled one are inferior, when in fact its a way better car. You can buy a 996 for ZR-1 money and it has ZR-1 like performance and Porsche quality. I have one of them too and they are cheap.


People want what they want, and actual vehicle performance has zero to do with it in many cases thus the ZR-1 is an underappreciated super car in disguise.


Today's kids are going to be searching for really clean Scion FR-S models and paying out the nose for them. They won't want any old muscle car, an air cooled Porsche or our ZR-1s.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by lfalzarano

Let the market do the talking and not the owners that treat the ZR-1 as an investment to become future wealth. This is a car to enjoy and be proud to own. Your grandchildren will be the ones reaping the appreciation of these cars and not you. Build a bridge and get over it in IMHO.


Lou

Agreed for the most part. I don't think they are ever going to appreciate beyond what the MSRP was, adjusted for inflation of course.

Originally Posted by AnthonyGS

I disagree with your last sentiment completely. Go check prices on twin turbo Supras and FD RX-7s in the US. They are sky high for low mileage clean cars almost at retail when new or higher. These cars have electronics that make the ZR-1 seem simple and reliable.

I'm not saying those cars won't be desirable, I'm saying they won't ever see the appreciation of 60's Ferraris or 60-70 (and 80s) Porsches.


Twin turbo supras were expensive new. Adjusted for inflation, a 1996 Supra that sold for 49k in 1996 would sell for 78k in 2018 dollars. A nice clean 50k mile car might sell for low to mid 60k today. So as an investment, you still wouldn't have made any money. Part of the reason they command the money they do clean today is because they were sold cheap abused and cut up in the early 2000s. There are very few nice clean examples left.

Inflation is the other part people ignore. A ZR1 that sold to the first owner for say, 65k, would have to sell for 125k today just to break even considering inflation. A ZR1 that sold to the second owner in 2010 for 32k would have to sell for 37k today just to make up for inflation.

Same goes for the RX-7. Except they they sold new for 20k in 1990 and sell for 20k now in todays dollars. Again, not huge appreciation.

The notion is that because they once sold super cheap and have skyrocketed that they would have been good investments. That goes for anything that dips then appreciates. Porsche 911s sold for 16-18k not that long ago. Ferrari 308s could be had for 30k all day long less than 10 years ago.

ZR1s are absolutely more complex electronically than either the 1JZ-GTE or the 13B-DEI. Reliability aside.

The current middle aged guys want Supras FD RX7s and Porsches. No one wants 300ZX turbos or Mitsu 3000 GTs though. And very few people want ZR-1s, like it or not, and that is keeping the price low and availability high and sales long.

Mitsubishi 3000 GTs and Dodge Stealth's have a strong following which will only increase as my age group approaches middle age. Go price a nice clean low mileage RT/TT...But yes, I don't believe ZR1s will ever appreciate greatly because they get lumped in with low performance C4s and because the supply of clean cars far exceeds the demand, and I don't see the demand increasing. Porsches are popular across age groups.

I'm considering selling my ZR-1 and getting a really clean 944 turbo. Why, because as I age that 944 turbo is going to be worth a whole lot more even though it isn't nearly as much car performance wise. That's a car I can buy, drive on nice days, and leave to my kids and they can enjoy it or sell for a huge profit. The ZR-1 is never going to be that car no matter how much anyone wants it.

Agreed on the ZR1, but Porsche 944s have topped out, and I don't see them increasing significantly, but you never know. A clean turbo car is going to cost almost twice what your ZR1 is worth though.

The reason air cooled 911s are so high is the perceived notion that the water cooled one are inferior, when in fact its a way better car. You can buy a 996 for ZR-1 money and it has ZR-1 like performance and Porsche quality. I have one of them too and they are cheap.

They also have some serious head gasket issues that can turn your car from a great car into a paperweight because they are cost prohibitive to fix.

People want what they want, and actual vehicle performance has zero to do with it in many cases thus the ZR-1 is an underappreciated super car in disguise.

Absolutely.

Today's kids are going to be searching for really clean Scion FR-S models and paying out the nose for them. They won't want any old muscle car, an air cooled Porsche or our ZR-1s.

They'll still want Porsches...lol.