The Dreaded No Start

[Bearly Flying]

Pulled the Plenum, finally got the starter out.
The positive contact inside the starter solenoid is chewed up pretty bad, the contact area has been chewed down from the original thickness of 1/8 inch to around 1/32". Going to try and find a replacement.
The negative post shows some wear, but could still clean it up.

A couple other items found on the way into the starter. It appears the vacuum actuators for the secondaries were install upside down, the arm of the actuator was running at an angle to the bellcranks on both cannisters.

Tested all my fuel injectors, found one bad primary, 6.2 ohms, the rest all came in at 12.3 to 12.6. They were the original injectors, according to the part numbers on them. Ordered new injectors.

[WVZR-1]

Originally Posted by Bearly Flying

A couple other items found on the way into the starter. It appears the vacuum actuators for the secondaries were install upside down, the arm of the actuator was running at an angle to the bellcranks on both cannisters.

Do NOT just change the orientation of the actuators without considerable thought. The "backwards" has been discussed/debated for years and I'd think most would agree "NOW" that you don't mess with what you've got. I've read that actually they could be installed in either direction in production, it wasn't the result of some "nitwit" as some claimed and once installed you need to consider the diaphragm is going to take a "set" so to speak and tampering with it would/could likely lead to failure or problems.

Those actuators have done it "their way" for 22+ years and you want to "retrain" them. Never!

[Paul Workman]

Originally Posted by Bearly Flying

I have recently began having problems with my 91 not starting, altho in my case it seems to be when the engine is cold , it won't start, once the engine is warm, it will start.
Battery tested out OK, I had another battery approx 1 year old I switched into the car, No difference.
When I turn the key, I can hear what I believe is the starter solenoid click with the clutch depressed. If I let the clutch out part way, there is nothing, no clicks from the solenoid. So I believe the clutch switch is working properly.
The security light does not come on while trying to start the car. So the VAT system shouldn't be at fault.
After repeated attempts at hitting the starter, it will engage enough to slightly rock the engine, a couple more cycles of the key and it will generally start normally.
I suspect it may be the contacts in the starter itself are arc'ed, but I thought I would check with the Experts to get your thoughts before diving into that Plenum for my first time.

I agree with you...sounds like the contacts on the solenoid could be at issue - maybe.** I bought a starter rebuild kit off of ebay for around $35, but the push pin that came with the replacement armature (that pushes the starter gear to engage the ring gear on the flywheel) was about 5 mm shorter than the OEM. Had I used it, only half of the starter gear would be engaged...Not so good. So, I opted to R&R that copper ring with some emery cloth to remove the carbon and pitting. Good as new - still working fine some 4 years later!

Later, I ran across the new contact posts at NAPA for around $6 for the pair. New posts and some emery cloth and you're good to go.


Scottfab pointed out once, and rightfully so, that to prevent arching the contacts in the clutch interlock switch, resulting eventually in the switch failure, always engage the clutch fully before turning the ignition switch i.e., never turn the switch and then press the clutch to the floor or there the switch contacts will arc in the process: also not good.

** If the problem is definitely heat-related, that is indicative of an issue with the stator windings; either in the solenoid itself, or within the starter. "Stops working when it gets hot" is a classic, I mean CLASSIC winding issue; beit motor, ignition coils, injectors...anything with windings.

P.

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by Bearly Flying

...snip...

A couple other items found on the way into the starter. It appears the vacuum actuators for the secondaries were install upside down, the arm of the actuator was running at an angle to the bellcranks on both cannisters.

....snip.....

I found mine to be backward also. That was in 98. I turned them around and have had no issue with binding after having done so. The risk you run when that angle is not straight is binding. Binding can cause one side to engage well before the other. The result is a less dramatic WOT effect.
It is also my opinion that you'll eventually get leaks in the diaphragm of the actuator if you don't turn them.

[WVZR-1]

Originally Posted by scottfab

I found mine to be backward also. That was in 98. I turned them around and have had no issue with binding after having done so. The risk you run when that angle is not straight is binding. Binding can cause one side to engage well before the other. The result is a less dramatic WOT effect.
It is also my opinion that you'll eventually get leaks in the diaphragm of the actuator if you don't turn them.

I believe it was documented by maybe Jerry that just the opposite is the case, I don't recall if it was on the @listserve or CF but I believe PW was a "proponent" at one time for reversing them and I notice he made "no mention" a couple hours ago. I don't believe he would have overlooked the opportunity.

Where's Jerry?

[Bearly Flying]

It definitely flexes the diaphragm when it operates, the sideways pull causes the arm to move across the face of the canister putting quite a bit of stress on the diaphragm.

WZZR-1, Thanks for the heads up, but I think I prefer a straight pull on the actuator. I will PM Jerry and get his thoughts, I see He has the actuators on his site, if necessary I will get a couple new ones thrown in with the injector order.

Paul; I Googled replacement contacts for the starter, it appears Nippon Denso is well known for burning up the contacts, there were lots of Suppliers. Hopefully my local NAPA can get them.

[WVZR-1]

Originally Posted by Bearly Flying

It definitely flexes the diaphragm when it operates, the sideways pull causes the arm to move across the face of the canister putting quite a bit of stress on the diaphragm.

WZZR-1, Thanks for the heads up, but I think I prefer a straight pull on the actuator. I will PM Jerry and get his thoughts, I see He has the actuators on his site, if necessary I will get a couple new ones thrown in with the injector order.

Paul; I Googled replacement contacts for the starter, it appears Nippon Denso is well known for burning up the contacts, there were lots of Suppliers. Hopefully my local NAPA can get them.

If you've an electrical shop that does their own rebuilds I'd remove mine and either let them do a quick check or at least buy their parts using all of your own as samples and their knowledge of the 'denso starter that's on nearly everything to make a choice of the proper parts to use for the replacement. There are choices - many. It's a starter motor that they see very often. Most Toyota dealers will have the stuff on the shelf also.

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by WVZR-1

I believe it was documented by maybe Jerry that just the opposite is the case, I don't recall if it was on the @listserve or CF but I believe PW was a "proponent" at one time for reversing them and I notice he made "no mention" a couple hours ago. I don't believe he would have overlooked the opportunity.

Where's Jerry?

I'd be interesting in hearing from anyone that thinks binding prevention is enhanced by having the actuators installed in anything but at straight angle.

[WVZR-1]

Originally Posted by scottfab

I'd be interesting in hearing from anyone that thinks binding prevention is enhanced by having the actuators installed in anything but at straight angle.

Here's a rather recent comment but not the one I recall, mentions the same things though!

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1582935484-post12.html

[Jagdpanzer]

Jerry's previous post is correct. When this topic was going around a while back I gave a set of NOS heads I have a thurough look over up on the bench. Tried the actuator positioned both ways. Installed straight it would bind the linkage and not fully open the secondaries when vacuum was applaid. Installed the other way with an angle the linkage ran smooth fully opening the secondaries.