Solution for Parts Availability Concerns

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by onethumb

I only wish that some of my other cars were made in such a high volume as the ZR-1.


Many casual owners will give up, and a lot of ZR-1's will fall into disrepair because of that. The gap between a "good" and a "poor" ZR-1 will grow. But there will always be ways to get parts, and an enthusiast community to help find them, and a small cottage industry to support the enthusiasts. I speak from experience!

Experience with cars from the same era? That's a big difference. You can't compare cars from the 70's and early 80's with these cars when it comes to sourcing reproduction/replacement parts.

Originally Posted by DRM500RUBYZR-1

To Rain man.

Have a very nice day!
M

I'm never sure when I'm talking to Marty the ZR-1 owner, Marty the former banker, or Marty the classic car salesman. They are three very different people with three very different perspectives and agendas. Which is why you end up contradicting yourself.

Marty the ZR-1 owner says; "everything will be fine, enjoy your car, we'll all help each other out." Marty the banker says; "let's pool our resources for sensible distribution of spare parts." Marty the car salesman ignores the fact that there will be parts shortages and claims that these cars are just undervalued.

Marty the classic car salesman ignores inflation when comparing values giving the impression that the corvette market is doing something it isn't. Marty the banker knows that's misleading or blatantly dishonest. Marty the ZR-1 owner claims anyone who disputes him just doesn't understand.

When you want to have a real discussion come on back.

Originally Posted by secondchance

Interestingly, apart from money I dished out to bore & stroke when the head gasket failed and custom brakes (because Wilwoods just looked great), infortainment system (for better sound and keep up with the time), and freshening up the interior (because original seats started to look too stressed), only parts I went through in 163,500 miles of driving are water pumps, alternators, starters, fuel pressure regulator, ASR motor and typical maintenance parts - nothing extraordinarily expensive. The fact that I drive the car at least once a week (or 5 times a week when it's sunny the whole week) may have something to do with it.
Matter of fact, most parts for our Z are standard C4 parts. A few LT5 specific parts, even when inflated due to scarcity, is relatively reasonable when compared to MB SL550 parts.
All I am saying is that it's all relative. Yes. I am concerned over certain LT5 specific parts, periodically check Ebay, snatch it up and squirrel them away. But, so far, it's been relatively easy.
As an investment, very few cars are worth betting on. I simply see my love of Z as means to hold on to my youth and means to accomplish my dream of making it better than when I bought it back in 1991.

I don't know that saying a head gasket went and then you spent 5-8k on a rebuild exactly proves a point of reliability, but I would agree that the cars overall are pretty reliable and for the most part should only require standard maintenance for the mileage.

My wife's Acura has 270k and my Dodge Ram has 308k, so I'm certainly aware of standard maintenance for high mileage cars...lol.

As for most parts being standard C4 parts...not really. If you broke the car down to every nut and bolt separately, sure, they probably share 80% of the same parts.

But when you break it into assemblies it's a different story. It doesn't matter that 95% of the transmission is the same if there is one critical part that isn't, and isn't made. The body panels are different from the doors back and aren't available as replacements or reproductions. Engine, transmission, wheels, dash wiring harness, engine wiring harness, instrument cluster, dash bezel, cooling system, fuel system...The majority of the parts that are shared (nuts, bolts, suspension) aren't the parts we are talking about.

Originally Posted by Ccmano

I’m not concerned, if it bothers you sell it or don’t buy one in the first place.
H

I'm not sure who this is directed at. I own several cars, piles of parts, and I'm looking for another car, so obviously it doesn't bother me.

Originally Posted by Jagdpanzer

Collectively we have been able to find suitable solutions for every parts and technical challenge that have come up so far.
With the dedicated and talented owners we have here I am quite confident we will continue this trend for the foreseeable future. May not always be NCRS kosher but they will work as good if not better than the originals and the cars don’t seem to mind.

This brings up a good point. None of the replacement parts are NCRS kosher (obviously some can't be seen). There are two schools of thought here. Keep it as original as possible to maintain value because it's only original once, or do whatever it takes to keep it drivable regardless of originality.

Originally Posted by Z51JEFF

Supply and demand,when the supply gets thin somebody-Jerry- will step up and fill the void. And when Jerry stops doing it somebody else will step in and continue the cycle. It all comes down to money,how much ya wanna spend. When was the last time a popular car became extinct because no parts rendered it useless?

Sure, money being no object, you can make any part over again. Obviously we produced all these parts in the late 80's early 90's and we haven't lost the ability to produce them.

But money is an object. There are lots of ZR-1 owners who will dump a non-running car before dropping 35% of the value of the car into a repair.

There won't always be someone to step up. At some point there won't be enough other revenue streams to use for development costs of new parts.

Originally Posted by WARP TEN

Well said, Phil. While I don't still own a ZR-1, I owned ZR-1s for the better part of 20 years. I meet regularly with Marc Haibeck and still go to some of the ZR-1 get togethers. I never had any unfixable problems over 80,000 miles with my Zs, and I always know that someone in this group can usually come up with a solution to any issue. I can certainly understand some people will be reluctant to own a C4 ZR-1 (which unfortunately reflects in current prices of them) but I for one would not have any concerns that I couldn't get a ZR-1 fixed. These cars are now about a quarter of a century old, but we have a vibrant and active ZR-1 community and there were a fair number of the cars made. Imagine the problems facing owners of some mid 90s cars with more limited production and the same early electronics (certain Ferraris come to mind). I think overall this group is in pretty good shape. Wish I were getting younger and had more garage space available for another ZR-1.--Bob

Again, some of these parts shortages and low inventory situations are very recent. So even using 3-5 years ago as a gauge doesn't work.

The difference with cars like Ferraris is that Ferrari supports their cars very well. You can call them up and get almost any replacement part for any car. Sure they are expensive, but the are official, correct, Ferrari parts.

GM won't even license replacement parts for these cars. So even when they are made they are reducing the originality and collectability of the car. If your goal is just to maintain a drivable car forever by any means possible, that can likely be done. They made a documentary about that, it was called Mad Max....lol.






There are several different dialogues going on simultaneously that are confusing the issue a bit.

Can these cars be made to run and drive forever? Sure. But as you take more an more original and original style parts from the car, you inevitably reduce its value as a collector car.

Marty knows that better than anyone and casually leaves that out of his dialogue. He's quietly collected a number of extremely low mileage cars and is asking money that they market hasn't paid since those cars were new. If someone were to buy a 69k ZR-1 from him, they are not going to want to instantly have to put a pile of replacement parts on it. They are buying it for it's originality, which at this point, they would have difficulty retaining if they also wanted to drive the car.

Which means, that if every car is inevitably going to have a hodge podge of replacement parts, the collector car market for these is going to be more limited. There will be no such thing as C4 "restorations" with so many original and OEM style parts being nonexistent. And no matter what anyone says, there are absolutely parts they won't reproduce ever again.

I work in a company that builds, rebuilds, and remanufactures piston engines. We do carbureted engines, mechanically fuel injected engines, electronically fuel injected engines, a direct injection diesel and a single cylinder two stroke. Single cylinder, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder, turbo, NA...a little bit of everything.

We support engines that are 60 years old. We don't support 60 year old engines because it's cost effective. We have had to discontinue parts, modify engines, and introduce alternative parts because we couldn't find anyone to cost effectively produce replacements for small production numbers. Production numbers that still eclipse anything ZR-1 parts production will see. And these are engines that cost 55k+, so it's not that we don't have the allowance to build in higher cost replacement parts if necessary.


At the end of the day, we can certainly keep these cars running although it may not be cost effective for many owners.

As things break and are replaced with aftermarket parts, the collectability of the cars will suffer.

While many people may not have purchased these cars as investments, they certainly purchased them hoping they would gain some collectability and value over time. At this point, many are still on the losing end of that. The availability of replacement parts and the resemblance of those parts to OEM parts will absolutely affect the value of these cars.

[TX '90 ZR1]

Originally Posted by spork2367

Experience with cars from the same era? That's a big difference. You can't compare cars from the 70's and early 80's with these cars when it comes to sourcing reproduction/replacement parts.



I'm never sure when I'm talking to Marty the ZR-1 owner, Marty the former banker, or Marty the classic car salesman. They are three very different people with three very different perspectives and agendas. Which is why you end up contradicting yourself.

Marty the ZR-1 owner says; "everything will be fine, enjoy your car, we'll all help each other out." Marty the banker says; "let's pool our resources for sensible distribution of spare parts." Marty the car salesman ignores the fact that there will be parts shortages and claims that these cars are just undervalued.

Marty the classic car salesman ignores inflation when comparing values giving the impression that the corvette market is doing something it isn't. Marty the banker knows that's misleading or blatantly dishonest. Marty the ZR-1 owner claims anyone who disputes him just doesn't understand.

When you want to have a real discussion come on back.



I don't know that saying a head gasket went and then you spent 5-8k on a rebuild exactly proves a point of reliability, but I would agree that the cars overall are pretty reliable and for the most part should only require standard maintenance for the mileage.

My wife's Acura has 270k and my Dodge Ram has 308k, so I'm certainly aware of standard maintenance for high mileage cars...lol.

As for most parts being standard C4 parts...not really. If you broke the car down to every nut and bolt separately, sure, they probably share 80% of the same parts.

But when you break it into assemblies it's a different story. It doesn't matter that 95% of the transmission is the same if there is one critical part that isn't, and isn't made. The body panels are different from the doors back and aren't available as replacements or reproductions. Engine, transmission, wheels, dash wiring harness, engine wiring harness, instrument cluster, dash bezel, cooling system, fuel system...The majority of the parts that are shared (nuts, bolts, suspension) aren't the parts we are talking about.



I'm not sure who this is directed at. I own several cars, piles of parts, and I'm looking for another car, so obviously it doesn't bother me.



This brings up a good point. None of the replacement parts are NCRS kosher (obviously some can't be seen). There are two schools of thought here. Keep it as original as possible to maintain value because it's only original once, or do whatever it takes to keep it drivable regardless of originality.



Sure, money being no object, you can make any part over again. Obviously we produced all these parts in the late 80's early 90's and we haven't lost the ability to produce them.

But money is an object. There are lots of ZR-1 owners who will dump a non-running car before dropping 35% of the value of the car into a repair.

There won't always be someone to step up. At some point there won't be enough other revenue streams to use for development costs of new parts.



Again, some of these parts shortages and low inventory situations are very recent. So even using 3-5 years ago as a gauge doesn't work.

The difference with cars like Ferraris is that Ferrari supports their cars very well. You can call them up and get almost any replacement part for any car. Sure they are expensive, but the are official, correct, Ferrari parts.

GM won't even license replacement parts for these cars. So even when they are made they are reducing the originality and collectability of the car. If your goal is just to maintain a drivable car forever by any means possible, that can likely be done. They made a documentary about that, it was called Mad Max....lol.






There are several different dialogues going on simultaneously that are confusing the issue a bit.

Can these cars be made to run and drive forever? Sure. But as you take more an more original and original style parts from the car, you inevitably reduce its value as a collector car.

Marty knows that better than anyone and casually leaves that out of his dialogue. He's quietly collected a number of extremely low mileage cars and is asking money that they market hasn't paid since those cars were new. If someone were to buy a 69k ZR-1 from him, they are not going to want tot fudge replacement parts on it. They are buying it for it's originality, which at this point, they would have difficulty retaining if they also wanted to drive the car.

Which means, that if every car is inevitably going to have a hodge podge of replacement parts, the collector car market for these is going to be more limited. There will be no such thing as C4 "restorations" with so many original and OEM style parts being nonexistent. And no matter what anyone says, there are absolutely parts they won't reproduce ever again.

I work in a company that builds, rebuilds, and remanufactures piston engines. We do carbureted engines, mechanically fuel injected engines, electronically fuel injected engines, a direct injection diesel and a single cylinder two stroke. Single cylinder, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder, turbo, NA...a little bit of everything.

We support engines that are 60 years old. We don't support 60 year old engines because it's cost effective. We have had to discontinue parts, modify engines, and introduce alternative parts because we couldn't find anyone to cost effectively produce replacements for small production numbers. Production numbers that still eclipse anything ZR-1 parts production will see. And these are engines that cost 55k+, so it's not that we don't have the allowance to build in higher cost replacement parts if necessary.


At the end of the day, we can certainly keep these cars running although it may not be cost effective for many owners.

As things break and are replaced with aftermarket parts, the collectability of the cars will suffer.

While many people may not have purchased these cars as investments, they certainly purchased them hoping they would gain some collectability and value over time. At this point, many are still on the losing end of that. The availability of replacement parts and the resemblance of those parts to OEM parts will absolutely affect the value of these cars.

I am feeling slighted!! Didn't make the list this time???

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by TX '90 ZR1

You got ta' love it!!
Observing the differences in perspective stated by different posters makes one wonder how other things are playing out for them.
More times than not, the attitude going into a situation will have an effect on it's outcome.
I'll just leave it at that for now.

Sure does. Weird how the guy trying to sell 4 really low mileage cars on his classic car lot has a different perspective than the guy who has one running ZR-1, one essentially low mileage parts car, and a pile of parts...

Like I stated earlier, I bought my parts when they were on the cheap side, so I've seen the value on some of them almost double. I bought a complete engine from a known car for 2100 a couple years ago. Oil pan to ECU.

If you're the guy who has no spare parts and a relatively original car, I'm sure you want to have an optimistic view of future parts availability.

Originally Posted by TX '90 ZR1

I am feeling slighted!! Didn't make the list this time???

Feel better?....lol.

[lfalzarano]

Everyone needs to chill and enjoy your ownership. I could get hit and killed by a bus today, but I Don’t worry about it or post it...


Lou

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

spork
you again speak with ignorance.
The last low mile ZR-1 that I sold went with a number starting with a 6.
Got that?
you sure you understand that right?


Left out that each of the low mile cars have already been fully serviced, with new injectors filter, pumps, fluids, battery, etc. or I would not sell them.
They each are turnkey Bloomington or NCRS ready.

Clear?
Great!
Must correct you when you so blatantly misstate facts about my cars.

The rest of what you say is equally wrong, but as stated earlier, I just do not really care what you think.
Got that?
Great.
Now, have a fine day.
Marty

[TX '90 ZR1]

Originally Posted by spork2367

Sure does. Weird how the guy trying to sell 4 really low mileage cars on his classic car lot has a different perspective than the guy who has one running ZR-1, one essentially low mileage parts car, and a pile of parts...

Like I stated earlier, I bought my parts when they were on the cheap side, so I've seen the value on some of them almost double. I bought a complete engine from a known car for 2100 a couple years ago. Oil pan to ECU.

If you're the guy who has no spare parts and a relatively original car, I'm sure you want to have an optimistic view of future parts availability.



Feel better?....lol.

I don't necessarily agree with the insinuation you make,(not about me), but I do feel better now.
THANK YOU!!

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by lfalzarano

Everyone needs to chill and enjoy your ownership. I could get hit and killed by a bus today, but I Don’t worry about it or post it...


Lou

I hope no one is really upset about this discussion. There is nothing to be upset about. (unless you have a broken car that needs an expensive part I suppose...) I'm not upset about the topic at all. Just for the record the people most involved in the discussion also aren't the people who started the thread. So it's not like any one person is running around starting lots of threads about controversial topics. They just come up because they are relevant. I'm not sure why we can't have a relevant discourse as long as we're clear about what's fact and what's opinion.

Originally Posted by DRM500RUBYZR-1

spork
you again speak with ignorance.
The last low mile ZR-1 that I sold went with a number starting with a 6.
Got that?
you sure you understand that right?


Left out that each of the low mile cars have already been fully serviced, with new injectors filter, pumps, fluids, battery, etc. or I would not sell them.
They each are turnkey Bloomington or NCRS ready.

Clear?
Great!
Must correct you when you so blatantly misstate facts about my cars.

The rest of what you say is equally wrong, but as stated earlier, I just do not really care what you think.
Got that?
Great.
Now, have a fine day.
Marty

So one car with low mileage sold for a number that started with 6 and that means every single one should sell for that? There are people who pay too much for things all day long.

Just to be clear with you NO valuation guide anywhere has a concours, Bloomington, NCRS ZR-1 of any year within 10k of what you're asking.

Current Concours Level ZR-1 Price Averages:

1990 - 43,000
1991 - 42,000
1992 - 36,000
1993 - 41,000
1994 - 41,000
1995 - 53,000

That being said, I'm not saying those cars aren't fully sorted. In fact I noticed you didn't quote where I misstated something about your cars as you claimed....The only thing I've stated about them is the price.

For 68-69k I would absolutely expect them to be fully sorted. It's your car lot, list them for whatever you'd like. Just don't come in here pretending to be regular joe ZR-1 owner with no agenda.

I'm still waiting for the explanation about how capitalism is king but we should start a communal parts bank, or for you to explain how I'm mistaken about adjusting values over a 28-40 year span of time for inflation...You were a banker, I'm just and engineer...

Originally Posted by TX '90 ZR1

I don't necessarily agree with the insinuation you make,(not about me), but I do feel better now.
THANK YOU!!

You don't think a guy selling cars has a different agenda than a guy buying cars? That's a very optimistic view!

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

Marty

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by DRM500RUBYZR-1

Marty

In the interest of civility, agreed!

[secondchance]

For what it's worth, last year (or was it a year earlier...) Marty was kind enough to part with a brand new dual-mass flywheel for a price cheaper than what Chevrolet was selling them for 9-10 years ago. Now, I have it in my 94Z with 163,500 miles and despite porting and phase 1 cam thumping, I have no dreaded gear rattle - THANK YOU, MARTY!

I see Marty pretty much every year at ZR-1 net registry tent at Carlisle with his ruby Z. Sure he sells vettes. But I now he loves Zs personally. Along the same vein, I understand spork's fear of spare parts sky-rocketing.