Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN - Page 3 - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

Paul Workman · 05-05-2012

You say you put in new plugs and it idled OK. If the previous plugs were getting wetted (due to a leaking injector or two) it is possible that new (dry) plugs would idle OK, if the injector(s) are not leaking too badly. However, pull the plugs again and see if the wet cylinders are still fouling/wetting the plugs. If so -

- you can eliminate cross-wiring the plugs, or idle would have been bad
- the symtoms you describe, coupled with the symptoms (and the track record of used injectors) screams "do a leak-down test!!" (if you haven't already done so) and get back with the results. IMO, I would want to know the results of that test before recommending anything else.

BTW, here's a suggestion that might cut down on the gasket cost when pulling the plenum:

Holding the gasket far away from the car and motor, spray the plenum side of the gasket with silicon, leaving the IH side dry. (NEVER do this with while the gasket is resting on the IH as the silicon will KILL the oxygen sensors!!)

With the IH absolutely clean and dry of any oil or whatever (use a razor blade to skim off any RTV, for example, and then use the tri or tetra-cabon type brake cleaner (NOT the petroleum based junk) and get the IH absolutely clean.

Then use thin smear of the blue Permatex RTV gasket sealant around the IH ports and place the gasket down on the IH, making sure the ports and holes line up before pressing it down and letting it set up for 20 minutes or so.

Now, when you remove the plenum the next time, all you have to do is remove the bolts and slip a thin putty knife between the plenum and the gasket and slide the putty knife across the length of the gasket to release it from the plenum without damaging the gasket. I have found I can reuse the gasket several times - which comes in handy when troubleshooting chit under the plenum.

Tom: FYI, the secondary delete program runs on the primaries only at idle. At ≈1% throttle, the secondaries are turned on, and the dwell time is halved to provide proper AFR. But, (and here's the kicker) if for any reason a code, and especially a SES light comes on, or an intermittent FULL ENGINE POWER switch opens up, the secondaries are shut off. Now, there's trouble because the dwell time is halved, & the primaries cannot make up the difference, due to the program. That's NOT GOOD. In other words, if running or someone you know is running secondary delete, you do NOT want to be driving the car; it's much more severe than simply reverting to L98 mode! In closed loop the ECM can make up for some of the loss, but not all. Better to tow it than to limp home and cook a valve or worse.

Fortuneately, a big chunk of the problems causing codes go away with the secondaries removed, and NEW injectors are the other half of the equation for running sans secondaries.

Going back to the alcohol problem with old injectors... The problem is a lean conditon as the windings short out, due to alcohol; the diminished field becomes too weak to actuate the injector (pintel), for example. A leaking injector is more of a mechanical seal problem and not usually alcohol-related - or more likely the result of some crud in the fuel gumming up the works.

I've seen perhaps a dozen or more posts over the years where "rebuilt" injectors have resulted in having to be replaced. IMO, tearing the plenum apart again (and again) to replace the bad injector, AND, running the risk of bent pins or vacuum leaks FAR outweighs the cost of buying new ones in the first place. No secondaries and new** injectors, and life is GOOD 99% of the time!

**I recall Bob G had a situation where a new injector leaked, big-time. Chit happens.

P.

oricale · 05-05-2012

Hey Paul!

Ok So today I am going to pull the secondary injector Fuse just to see if that calms the idle down...

if it does I will go ahead and put in the old secondaries that are ohming good,...I can pull a plenum in 20 min,..also I have the thicker gaskets from jerry,..they are great!

Any thoughts?

Paul Workman · 05-05-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by oricale

Hey Paul!

Ok So today I am going to pull the secondary injector Fuse just to see if that calms the idle down...

if it does I will go ahead and put in the old secondaries that are ohming good,...I can pull a plenum in 20 min,..also I have the thicker gaskets from jerry,..they are great!

Any thoughts?

Yeah...

The secondaries are not on at idle...NOT ON

LEAK-down test: Results???

P.

scottfab · 05-05-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Workman

Going back to the alcohol problem with old injectors... The problem is a lean conditon as the windings short out, due to alcohol; the diminished field becomes too weak to actuate the injector (pintel), for example. A leaking injector is more of a mechanical seal problem and not usually alcohol-related - or more likely the result of some crud in the fuel gumming up the works.

The single largest failure of the original pintel designed injectors was rust. They were not stainless steel. Shorting of windings was related to engine overheating issues. I say this because these issues showed up before alcohol was introduced in fuel in the NW. I have not seen any evidence that alcohol contributes to this but it doesn't mean it's not out there.

On this current issue of fouled plugs. I had ign wire come loose at the coil and it idled just fine. Under load it would foul and the engine ran rough. Plug was wet when it was pulled. But then I had just one loose wire. Don't know what 2 would be like.

Paul Workman · 05-06-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottfab

Shorting of windings was related to engine overheating issues... I say this because these issues showed up before alcohol was introduced in fuel in the NW.

Lemme hit the "pause" button...

There is ample evidence and documentation pointing to the soluability of the (shelac like) coating of the pre 93 OEM injector coil wires due to alcohol exposure.

One case does not a trend make, but even I recently had several NOS injectors heading down the (ohm's) scale in just 3 years of exposure...and the engine never over heated even once in that 3-year period. Not dismissing abnormal heat or it's potential for destroying the insulation, sans alcohol, because stuff happens. But, in contrast to a heat event, the chemically related (alcohol) dissolving of the (shelac-like) insulation is more of an insideous phenomenon: unlike an abrupt change that would be in kind with my experience with over-heated coils (shorting) and the results thereof. (I guess that's going all the way around the barn to cast doubt on the notion that long term coil shorting is due to incidental heat over chemical (alcohol) related deteriorization of the wire insulation.

)

As for the wet plugs, you make a good point; it could be a wire or some other related issue (like mice that nested on top of my coils and re-arranged the "furniture" by chewing on the "LT5" plug wires...

).

Anyway, I recon it would be easy enough to verify by reading the resistance between the two plug wires (shared by the one coil) and comparing the results with the rest of the wires. It wouldn't be fool proof, as the VOM is a low (battery operated) device. A megger would be better suited for testing high voltage circuits, I recon.

To the OP, with regard to scottfab's point about a connection, testing results of the (1-6, 2-3, 4-7, 5-8) pairs of wires (shared by a single coil) may likely show some variation of resistance readings, due to the various wire lengths. But! An "open" reading, or even a x2 reading (compared to the average of the others) would indicate trouble somewhere. It could be wires, or coil or connections. If the wires check out, a fuel pressure leak-down test could be set up quicker than it takes to read this thread, and you still wouldn't need to pull the plenum. If the leak-down fails, and without additional clues (such as your wet plugs), I'd be isolating the fuel rail from the pumps and testing the fuel pump check valves and the fuel rail individually. But, in your case, and if as scottfab pointed out, there is no apparent wiring problem, wet plugs, coupled with fuel smell, and failed leak-down test = plenum time again!

Good luck,
P.

A26B · 05-06-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynomite

......Ya....Eliminate Throttle Body (TB) Coolant. You can then pull the plenum in 10 minutes and replace in about the same time not having to mess with coolant. Also, the Injector Housing gasket only has to deal with vacuum and not coolant. .......

Correction: I think you mean Plenum Gasket instead of Injector Housing Gasket.

oricale · 05-06-2012

FOLKS,....Problem #1 Solved!!!!..I changed the secondary injectors and NO MORE missing!,...

I working with Pete with a couple other issues:

Idle at 1050
crank case back pressure
vacuum leak at the PCV valve boot!.

Issue I have is I am blowing smoke on hard throttle, Spark plugs are clean but the top of the pistons are wet...

Our guess is: PCV valve boot leaking, drawing oil into the system,...also causing crankcase pressure.

I also Had the oil dip stick out becuase I have to get the adapter for headers.!!! anyone have one??

secondchance · 05-06-2012

Great news!
As for the PCV hose, I see a couple in ebay.
For the dipstick tube I think I got mine from one of the registry member. Push come to shove we can fabricate an aluminum strap - did this w/ Billy's white ZR-1.
BTW, if PCV top connector is leaking, this could cause high idle.

Paul Workman · 05-07-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by oricale

FOLKS,....Problem #1 Solved!!!!..I changed the secondary injectors and NO MORE missing!,...

I working with Pete with a couple other issues:

Idle at 1050
crank case back pressure
vacuum leak at the PCV valve boot!.

Issue I have is I am blowing smoke on hard throttle, Spark plugs are clean but the top of the pistons are wet...

Our guess is: PCV valve boot leaking, drawing oil into the system,...also causing crankcase pressure.

I also Had the oil dip stick out becuase I have to get the adapter for headers.!!! anyone have one??

Just happen to have 4 of 'em in stock...

PM me w/ you addy, and I'll get one out to ya.

P.

Scrrem · 05-07-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by oricale

Issue I have is I am blowing smoke on hard throttle, Spark plugs are clean but the top of the pistons are wet...

Our guess is: PCV valve boot leaking, drawing oil into the system,...also causing crankcase pressure.

Dempsey,
Glad to hear you got your miss fixed. On the smoking issue, did you install crankcase vent material back in the cam covers before installation? That's the scotch brite material behind the chain guard. If that is not present, I wonder if that would cause excessive oil to be drawn into the PCV system. Just shooting in the dark, maybe someone else can chime in on this.
Rich

05-05-2012	#21
Paul Workman Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Squires (near Ava MO in the Mark Twain N'tl Forest) - Missouri Posts: 6,493	Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN You say you put in new plugs and it idled OK. If the previous plugs were getting wetted (due to a leaking injector or two) it is possible that new (dry) plugs would idle OK, if the injector(s) are not leaking too badly. However, pull the plugs again and see if the wet cylinders are still fouling/wetting the plugs. If so - - you can eliminate cross-wiring the plugs, or idle would have been bad - the symtoms you describe, coupled with the symptoms (and the track record of used injectors) screams "do a leak-down test!!" (if you haven't already done so) and get back with the results. IMO, I would want to know the results of that test before recommending anything else. BTW, here's a suggestion that might cut down on the gasket cost when pulling the plenum: Holding the gasket far away from the car and motor, spray the plenum side of the gasket with silicon, leaving the IH side dry. (NEVER do this with while the gasket is resting on the IH as the silicon will KILL the oxygen sensors!!) With the IH absolutely clean and dry of any oil or whatever (use a razor blade to skim off any RTV, for example, and then use the tri or tetra-cabon type brake cleaner (NOT the petroleum based junk) and get the IH absolutely clean. Then use thin smear of the blue Permatex RTV gasket sealant around the IH ports and place the gasket down on the IH, making sure the ports and holes line up before pressing it down and letting it set up for 20 minutes or so. Now, when you remove the plenum the next time, all you have to do is remove the bolts and slip a thin putty knife between the plenum and the gasket and slide the putty knife across the length of the gasket to release it from the plenum without damaging the gasket. I have found I can reuse the gasket several times - which comes in handy when troubleshooting chit under the plenum. Tom: FYI, the secondary delete program runs on the primaries only at idle. At ≈1% throttle, the secondaries are turned on, and the dwell time is halved to provide proper AFR. But, (and here's the kicker) if for any reason a code, and especially a SES light comes on, or an intermittent FULL ENGINE POWER switch opens up, the secondaries are shut off. Now, there's trouble because the dwell time is halved, & the primaries cannot make up the difference, due to the program. That's NOT GOOD. In other words, if running or someone you know is running secondary delete, you do NOT want to be driving the car; it's much more severe than simply reverting to L98 mode! In closed loop the ECM can make up for some of the loss, but not all. Better to tow it than to limp home and cook a valve or worse. Fortuneately, a big chunk of the problems causing codes go away with the secondaries removed, and NEW injectors are the other half of the equation for running sans secondaries. Going back to the alcohol problem with old injectors... The problem is a lean conditon as the windings short out, due to alcohol; the diminished field becomes too weak to actuate the injector (pintel), for example. A leaking injector is more of a mechanical seal problem and not usually alcohol-related - or more likely the result of some crud in the fuel gumming up the works. I've seen perhaps a dozen or more posts over the years where "rebuilt" injectors have resulted in having to be replaced. IMO, tearing the plenum apart again (and again) to replace the bad injector, AND, running the risk of bent pins or vacuum leaks FAR outweighs the cost of buying new ones in the first place. No secondaries and new* injectors, and life is GOOD 99% of the time! I recall Bob G had a situation where a new injector leaked, big-time. Chit happens. P. __________________ Good carz, good food, good friendz = the best of timez!* 90 #1202 "FBI" top end ported & relieved Cam timing by "Pete the Greek" Sans secondaries Chip & dyno tuning by Haibeck Automotive SW headers, X-pipe, MF muffs Former Secretary, ZR-1 Net Registry

05-05-2012	#22
oricale Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: STAFFORD VA, Posts: 576	Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN Hey Paul! Ok So today I am going to pull the secondary injector Fuse just to see if that calms the idle down... if it does I will go ahead and put in the old secondaries that are ohming good,...I can pull a plenum in 20 min,..also I have the thicker gaskets from jerry,..they are great! Any thoughts? __________________ [B][I][COLOR=red]1990 ZR1[/COLOR][COLOR=black] [U]#00077 [COLOR=red]RED[/COLOR]/[COLOR=red]RED[/COLOR] (10Y022 PEP CAR) [/U][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][I][COLOR=red]1991 ZR1[/COLOR][COLOR=black] [U]#00517 ("Irene")[COLOR=red]WHITE[/COLOR]/[COLOR=red]RED-SOLD:cry:[/COLOR] [B][/B] [/U][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][I][COLOR=red]1992 ZR1[/COLOR][COLOR=black] [U]#00445("The Revenant")[COLOR=red][COLOR="Black"]BLACK [/COLOR][/COLOR]/[COLOR=red]RED(2016 T.O.D!) [/COLOR] [/U][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=red]2009 [COLOR=red]Z06!![COLOR=black]BLK/BLK rare Linen interior[/COLOR] 707HP!![/COLOR] [/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=red]2006[/COLOR] BLK/BLK Z51 (Just SICK FAST!)SOLD)[/I][/B] [B][I]1996 BLK/BLK LT4 Grnsprt(sold...Twice!)[/I][/B] [B][I]1991 RED/REDL98(Fell off the shipping truck:([/I][/B] [B][I]1980 BLK/RED L82(Sold)[/I][/B] [B][I][B][I]1990[/I][/B] RED/BLK(sold.....In Japan)[/I][/B] [I][COLOR=black][B][I]2006[/I][/B][/COLOR][/I] [COLOR=red]Mustang GT[/COLOR] ([B][I]mach 1[/I][/B])[B](sold)[/B] [COLOR=black][B][I]1969[/I][/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=red]Mach[/COLOR] [B][I]1(sold in Japan)[/I][/B] [COLOR=black][B][I]1969[/I][/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=red]Mach[/COLOR] [B][I]1#2(sold)[/I][/B] [B][I]WAZOO Member...[/I][/B] [url]www.evolution-motorsport.com[/url] facebook/evolutionmotorsportengineering Your Local [url]www.Amsoil.com[/url] dealer/user.. Victory Loves Preparation

05-06-2012	#27
oricale Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: STAFFORD VA, Posts: 576	Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN FOLKS,....Problem #1 Solved!!!!..I changed the secondary injectors and NO MORE missing!,... I working with Pete with a couple other issues: Idle at 1050 crank case back pressure vacuum leak at the PCV valve boot!. Issue I have is I am blowing smoke on hard throttle, Spark plugs are clean but the top of the pistons are wet... Our guess is: PCV valve boot leaking, drawing oil into the system,...also causing crankcase pressure. I also Had the oil dip stick out becuase I have to get the adapter for headers.!!! anyone have one?? __________________ [B][I][COLOR=red]1990 ZR1[/COLOR][COLOR=black] [U]#00077 [COLOR=red]RED[/COLOR]/[COLOR=red]RED[/COLOR] (10Y022 PEP CAR) [/U][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][I][COLOR=red]1991 ZR1[/COLOR][COLOR=black] [U]#00517 ("Irene")[COLOR=red]WHITE[/COLOR]/[COLOR=red]RED-SOLD:cry:[/COLOR] [B][/B] [/U][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][I][COLOR=red]1992 ZR1[/COLOR][COLOR=black] [U]#00445("The Revenant")[COLOR=red][COLOR="Black"]BLACK [/COLOR][/COLOR]/[COLOR=red]RED(2016 T.O.D!) [/COLOR] [/U][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=red]2009 [COLOR=red]Z06!![COLOR=black]BLK/BLK rare Linen interior[/COLOR] 707HP!![/COLOR] [/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=red]2006[/COLOR] BLK/BLK Z51 (Just SICK FAST!)SOLD)[/I][/B] [B][I]1996 BLK/BLK LT4 Grnsprt(sold...Twice!)[/I][/B] [B][I]1991 RED/REDL98(Fell off the shipping truck:([/I][/B] [B][I]1980 BLK/RED L82(Sold)[/I][/B] [B][I][B][I]1990[/I][/B] RED/BLK(sold.....In Japan)[/I][/B] [I][COLOR=black][B][I]2006[/I][/B][/COLOR][/I] [COLOR=red]Mustang GT[/COLOR] ([B][I]mach 1[/I][/B])[B](sold)[/B] [COLOR=black][B][I]1969[/I][/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=red]Mach[/COLOR] [B][I]1(sold in Japan)[/I][/B] [COLOR=black][B][I]1969[/I][/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=red]Mach[/COLOR] [B][I]1#2(sold)[/I][/B] [B][I]WAZOO Member...[/I][/B] [url]www.evolution-motorsport.com[/url] facebook/evolutionmotorsportengineering Your Local [url]www.Amsoil.com[/url] dealer/user.. Victory Loves Preparation

05-06-2012	#28
secondchance Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: McLean, VA Posts: 3,721	Re: Almost BG bound-Need help AGAIN Great news! As for the PCV hose, I see a couple in ebay. For the dipstick tube I think I got mine from one of the registry member. Push come to shove we can fabricate an aluminum strap - did this w/ Billy's white ZR-1. BTW, if PCV top connector is leaking, this could cause high idle.