24 hrs LeMans this weekend

[John Boothby]

Back in the day a driver really had to have a feel for his car. Aerodynamics have completely changed the way race cars are driven. Like you said, today if you drift a little you scrub off speed. Back in the day that was the way around the track! You drove the car into the corner and fanned the throttle to keep the car under control. In the corner you controlled the car with the throttle. This is still the practice in short track (Miget and World of Outlaws) class of racing. And dirt track!

I love racing when the driver has the car on the edge. I mean, using every ounce of the cars capability. It applies today as well as in the past.

[Aurora40]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

"...I just hope we protect the purity of the sport". Forgive me but I wonder who the judge of that "purity" really is. I applaud LeMans and look forward to the next iteration of experimental class using hydrogen and electric propulsion. In fact, I applaud them for taking a "free market" approach for next year. No formulas, just run what you brung. But you can only use so much fuel.

In terms of who the judge is, I think the answer is obvious: spectators. If a bunch of Prius drivers, the Lorax, etc, start tuning in to watch LeMans, ALMS races, Or Euro LeMans Series, then it will be a great idea. I think traditional race fans though don't tend to care about contrived competition that artificially favors "new" technologies like diesels or hybrids.

It is really odd that you think a free market is one in which a resource is artificially constrained.

Fuel is as unlimited as oxygen, rubber, people, or any other resource. How is it "run what you brung" if there is an artifical cap on how you can use what you brung?

High fuel use means more pit stops, more fuel means more weight and more tire wear, which means more pit stops. This reality will reward real meaningful innovations that solve real problems. You don't need artificial constraints for technology to progress.

Anyway, this is a matter of opinion. Time will tell which opinion racing fans share, though the ALMS has been struggling for a few years now. "Green" challenges and the like have not helped save them. They are mostly only broadcast online, and the few televised races are generally not even broadcast the same day as the event. Maybe the solution is more hybrids....

[Aurora40]

Originally Posted by Kevin

the point of lemans since its inception in the early 1920's was to make the automobile move forward technologically. Research the history of the race before you go on another tirade

What??

The point of it is competition. A byproduct is certainly technological improvements. That's like saying Wimbledon exists to improve the state of sneaker technology.

If it turned out that more automotive progress was made by having all those people spend 24 hours in a laboratory, would they replace the race with the "24 Heures du Lab". Of course not, because the race is the main point...

[XfireZ51]

Bob,

But pushing the edges of the envelope is intrinsic in competition. Not sure you can separate the two. It's a given. LeMans is the ultimate laboratory. The ROI is HUGE, both in terms of testing and marketing.

[John Boothby]

I believe if you have something better than the next guy, bring'er on! But don't put constraints on the competition just to allow new technology to be competitive.

[XfireZ51]

Originally Posted by John Boothby

I believe if you have something better than the next guy, bring'er on! But don't put constraints on the competition just to allow new technology to be competitive.

John,

I agree with you when it comes to things such as added ballast, restrictor plates etc. In my opinion this impedes competition for the sake of giving the fans a closer race. I don't watch NASCAR for that reason. I don't like formulas that way. However, I did enjoy watching the IROC series when the cars were "identical" and the objective was to see who was the best driver. But that was the stated goal of the series. I view the "constraints" LeMans is implementing as a way of making the existing technologies better. Stretching them as far as they can go. Ultimately, there is an intrinsic limit. The ultimate constraints are the laws of physics. If another technology can "leapfrog" those limitations then more power to it(no pun intended). Happens all the time in business. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Bob,

If the spectators are the ultimate judge of what the "purity" of the sport is, then its a pretty relative term. And we'll just have to wait and see what the spectators say when they vote with their dollars.

[mgg]

Reading these post makes me think of a time and place in racing that I truly find the pinnacle of motorsport in my mind. Can-am really was racing at its purist. Technical advances, brutal power, very few rules. It created the most advanced and wild race cars the world had ever seen. 600 cubic inch all aluminum chevy v-8s. Porsche twin turbo v-8 making 1100hp. Aerodynamics as cool and as innovative as anyone could imagine. What a great series and if any of you are interested the DVD history of the Can-am is a must buy. I miss those days. I would like to add that those can-am cars in their day were signifcantly faster than the formula one cars on the same tracks. I loved it.

[XfireZ51]

Originally Posted by mgg

Reading these post makes me think of a time and place in racing that I truly find the pinnacle of motorsport in my mind. Can-am really was racing at its purist. Technical advances, brutal power, very few rules. It created the most advanced and wild race cars the world had ever seen. 600 cubic inch all aluminum chevy v-8s. Porsche twin turbo v-8 making 1100hp. Aerodynamics as cool and as innovative as anyone could imagine. What a great series and if any of you are interested the DVD history of the Can-am is a must buy. I miss those days. I would like to add that those can-am cars in their day were signifcantly faster than the formula one cars on the same tracks. I loved it.

I loved the Can Am and the Trans Am series of that era.

[Aurora40]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

I view the "constraints" LeMans is implementing as a way of making the existing technologies better. Stretching them as far as they can go. Ultimately, there is an intrinsic limit. The ultimate constraints are the laws of physics. If another technology can "leapfrog" those limitations then more power to it(no pun intended).

I view it as greenwashing. Diesel didn't get better due to LeMans and the ALMS, unless you count improving perception as a stride. I do not consider it progress, as it is artificial.

The initial constraints on diesels were almost 50% larger fuel tanks, almost 100% more boost pressure, and larger displacment vs a gas powered prototype. This is not improving technology, it is pretending that a technology is better than it is. Perception of diesels took a huge leap, because it was represented as if diesels are now the formula of choice for performance and economy. But the reality of diesels had not actually changed.

If they had more even rules, or no rules at all, no one would have run a diesel car. Because it isn't competitive. When and if it becomes competitive, it will be a real accomplishment. Possibly that day would never come if it's not a good technology. But if it did come, it would be because of a genuine advantage.

That formula of heavily tilting the playing field is not how you push progress, it is how you displace or redirect it with rules advantages. That is basically what they are doing with hybrids and electrics now going forward.

I tend to think if you want a series that favors greenie stuff, start one. LeMans didn't start judging your drifting around corners when that became popular, rather new series popped up to support it. I doubt there is enough interest to support a new "green" series of electric cars racing against diesel cars racing against hemp powered cars, etc.

So instead they have used the popularity of this race and follower series, and pushed the green agenda onto it. As you said, time will tell if this kills it or it is a hit.

I think time has already shown that the green focus is not a winner for the ALMS. And it sounds like it's not a winner for some in this thread, and is for others.

[XfireZ51]

I can't see a more efficient way of improving an automotive technology than subjecting it to the crucible of racing. IC motors have had 100 years
of honing this way. To judge disruptive technologies like electric or fuel cell in a few short years is not comparing apples to apples. Battery and power control systems are finally reaching a level that can render these technologies as viable
A body in motion wants to stay in motion. An outside force needs to be exerted in order to change its momentum. Time will tell if these other technologies have a potential of challenging the status quo. But they need to be given an opportunity and encouragement. I applaud LeMans for basically saying "Let's find out". Frankly it will also push the limits of IC technology. Everybody wins.