Charging system Problem ! - Page 2 - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

12-07-2008

Paul,
Do you mean the internal regulator inside Alt. ??

P.S. I just start the car from chargring Jumper, then i went to supermarket , diconnect the Bat + Termnel , then came after hour, then i start the car , and the needle stay at 14.5 V. its was strange, even with 900 RPM !!
Then drive the car for 10 min. every thing was fine, then again after i top the car and Engine goes to 900 RPM, the needle start to play up and down, 1/4 - 1/2 position !

BTW, i change my Alterenator before year ago with NEW one!

12-07-2008

Ok here is the vid, this is between 900-1000 RPM.
P.S i have the larger pulley on Alt. ( could this be the reason? )

WB9MCW · 12-07-2008

Yea Hadi you need some REGULATION -- now go to a good shop and confirm!!

See if this thread gets you to the bottom of it all -- Early C4 -- proly similar (wires and testing at any rate) for our Z at least get you on course for finding the problem.

http://forums.*************.com/c4-t...d-battery.html

Here is the tech tip for the later larger alternators my guess is the same as our Z

http://www.*************.com/techtip...=254&TopicID=2

Another c4 bench test alt thread

http://forums.*************.com/c4-t...lternator.html

there are a few things you need to know.
1. the alternator is a constant potential charging device. That means there is a preset voltage limit in the alternator voltage regulator.
The alternator tries it's mightiest to achieve that at all times.
2.When you first start the car, the alternator wants to get to that voltage, and it kicks in more field voltage to accomplish this.
The field voltage is a function of the voltage regulator based upon it's constant battery voltage sampling.
3.so, cold, the battery has sat all night, it's achieved it's lowest unloaded voltage, and then just started the engine. The voltage wire on the plug on the alternator feeds the sample voltage to the regulator (CHECK THAT PLUG) then if the voltage is lower, the reduced battery voltage biases the voltage regulator, and the alternator starts out at 105 amps. As the battery voltage comes up, the field voltage goes down, ending up with the load and the battery setting the alternator load at any given second.
4. The alternator generates heat.
a. the heat of the alternator is respective of the load.
b. Load is based upon battery voltage
3. there is a thermister in the regulator that reduces the amount of voltage sampled by the alternator, reducing the voltage and the load.
4. reduced voltage and load reduces the battery voltage when the car is hot. The hotter the alternator, the lower the voltage to a point. The battery could overcharge at elevated temps and sulfate excessively, so this is a good thing.
5. The alternator doesn't produce much output below 550 RPM.
6. The alternators don't do well at extremely high temps.
7. Notice the voltage cold, and the voltage hot. it may vary by 2 volts or more.
8. overhauled alternators may be compromised by the overhaul methods.
9. there are aftermarket methods of reducing the alternator temp.

Third thread >>>92 Vette

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...regulator.html

4th Thread 89 C4

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/foru...d.php?t=108875

the ******* are the block on our favorite forum that is blocked at the server level ---tis what it tis --- too bad for this because every now and then a link to that forum is in order for stuff just like this!!!

Well you can proly guess what forun it is and finger it out!!

GOOD LUCK HADI --- KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!!

Paul Workman · 12-08-2008

I started this response and then got called away, and didn't have time to read all the responses. So, at the risk of being redundant...

One of the classic failure modes of electronic stuff is due to heat fluctuations; usually failing when going from cold to hot (but not always). Since it worked normally for a while and then quit, my focus would be on the regulator at this point: either it is failing, or there is a connection associated with the alt that is intermittent.

The regulator varies a DC pulse width to the stator, thus maintaining the DC voltage to the "load". IF the regulator is breaking down when hot, OR the plug-in connector on the back of the alternator (or some other) is intermittent, then the regulator will not increase the stator current pulse width - especially at low speed - and the DC voltage "falls out of regulation".

RE That connection that drives/supplies the regulator: It is a connector on the back of the alternator, and if it is loose/corroded, the alternator output can be low, or erratic as hell, depending on the nature of the contacts. (I tried all my tricks to enlarge this schematic (from the FSM), but you'll probably have to save it and look at it outside this post to better see it.)

__________________

All That Said... Now I'll tell ya what really intrigues me...That surging! The video shows the voltage fluctuations are in coincidence with an idle surging - not the surge as much as when the rpm falls off is when the voltage drops "out of regulation". My point is, there is a chance it is not the regulator or the alternator per se', but a combination of the rpm surging/fall off that is coincident with the voltage dropping out of regulation at low rpm (a FACT we see in the video clip...a very helpful video clip too, I might add!), aggravated by the under-driven alternator!?

Bottom line: I'd try to eliminate a few things first-

First I'd want to eliminate that surging at idle (usually due to an air (vacuum) leak). That eliminated, see what the alternator voltage does. If the surging is eliminated and the voltage is still out of regulation (assuming idle is 700 rpm or better), then I'd be considering putting the stock pulley back on the alt and see what that does.
Then, with those two items eliminated, if the regulator isn't regulating, then I'd be checking that connector plug on the back of the alt to be sure all is clean there.
With a faulty connection being eliminated...now you're down to the regulator itself. Time to pull that alternator and swap regulators (with a quality one this time) as re-builders don't always use "the good stuff".

Good luck my man!

P.

WB9MCW · 12-09-2008

Hadi my old speedboat would always start but it had this same surge thing at idle in the no wake zones -- I would notice it a night the most since the lights were on.

My mech. changed out the alt too and no fix -- he spent many hours on this one and it in the end turned out to be a multi-junction connector on the wire harness that had a bunch of corrosion on it and after a replacement of the mega connector all was well.

He never did figure it out it was the factory that actually came up with the idea to check that connector--

he only charged me $100 in the end since that was all the repair should have cost.

he told me that he had at least 100 hours in the investigation however -- good thing he is one of my neighbors and a good friend too!! lucky me on that one.

12-23-2008

Happy holiday my friends.

update:
I bought new battery 56A.

i noticed that when the car at first start warm up, the charging needle show at 3/4 (900 RPM), then it goes to 1/2 @ 900 RPM. when engine is warm!
what is your conclusion?

Paul Workman · 12-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by HADI-ZR1

Happy holiday my friends.

update:
I bought new battery 56A.

i noticed that when the car at first start warm up, the charging needle show at 3/4 (900 RPM), then it goes to 1/2 @ 900 RPM. when engine is warm!
what is your conclusion?

That is normal (w/o looking at your particular situation)

P.

12-07-2008	#11
HADI-ZR1 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Charging system Problem ! Paul, Do you mean the internal regulator inside Alt. ?? P.S. I just start the car from chargring Jumper, then i went to supermarket , diconnect the Bat + Termnel , then came after hour, then i start the car , and the needle stay at 14.5 V. its was strange, even with 900 RPM !! Then drive the car for 10 min. every thing was fine, then again after i top the car and Engine goes to 900 RPM, the needle start to play up and down, 1/4 - 1/2 position ! BTW, i change my Alterenator before year ago with NEW one!

12-07-2008	#12
HADI-ZR1 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Charging system Problem ! Ok here is the vid, this is between 900-1000 RPM. P.S i have the larger pulley on Alt. ( could this be the reason? ) Last edited by HADI-ZR1; 12-07-2008 at 04:23 PM.

12-07-2008	#13
WB9MCW Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: McHenry, Il. Posts: 6,607	Re: Charging system Problem ! Yea Hadi you need some REGULATION -- now go to a good shop and confirm!! See if this thread gets you to the bottom of it all -- Early C4 -- proly similar (wires and testing at any rate) for our Z at least get you on course for finding the problem. http://forums.***********.com/c4-t...d-battery.html Here is the tech tip for the later larger alternators my guess is the same as our Z http://www.*********.com/techtip...=254&TopicID=2 Another c4 bench test alt thread http://forums.*********.com/c4-t...lternator.html there are a few things you need to know. 1. the alternator is a constant potential charging device. That means there is a preset voltage limit in the alternator voltage regulator. The alternator tries it's mightiest to achieve that at all times. 2.When you first start the car, the alternator wants to get to that voltage, and it kicks in more field voltage to accomplish this. The field voltage is a function of the voltage regulator based upon it's constant battery voltage sampling. 3.so, cold, the battery has sat all night, it's achieved it's lowest unloaded voltage, and then just started the engine. The voltage wire on the plug on the alternator feeds the sample voltage to the regulator (CHECK THAT PLUG) then if the voltage is lower, the reduced battery voltage biases the voltage regulator, and the alternator starts out at 105 amps. As the battery voltage comes up, the field voltage goes down, ending up with the load and the battery setting the alternator load at any given second. 4. The alternator generates heat. a. the heat of the alternator is respective of the load. b. Load is based upon battery voltage 3. there is a thermister in the regulator that reduces the amount of voltage sampled by the alternator, reducing the voltage and the load. 4. reduced voltage and load reduces the battery voltage when the car is hot. The hotter the alternator, the lower the voltage to a point. The battery could overcharge at elevated temps and sulfate excessively, so this is a good thing. 5. The alternator doesn't produce much output below 550 RPM. 6. The alternators don't do well at extremely high temps. 7. Notice the voltage cold, and the voltage hot. it may vary by 2 volts or more. 8. overhauled alternators may be compromised by the overhaul methods. 9. there are aftermarket methods of reducing the alternator temp. Third thread >>>92 Vette http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...regulator.html 4th Thread 89 C4 http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/foru...d.php?t=108875 the ***** are the block on our favorite forum that is blocked at the server level ---tis what it tis --- too bad for this because every now and then a link to that forum is in order for stuff just like this!!! Well you can proly guess what forun it is and finger it out!! GOOD LUCK HADI --- KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!! __________________ http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...9mcw/SIG-2.jpg http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o128/wb9mcw/vcm.gif "The Budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero, 55 BC " We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln Last edited by WB9MCW; 12-07-2008 at 05:34 PM.

12-08-2008	#14
Paul Workman Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Squires (near Ava MO in the Mark Twain N'tl Forest) - Missouri Posts: 6,493	Re: Charging system Problem ! I started this response and then got called away, and didn't have time to read all the responses. So, at the risk of being redundant... One of the classic failure modes of electronic stuff is due to heat fluctuations; usually failing when going from cold to hot (but not always). Since it worked normally for a while and then quit, my focus would be on the regulator at this point: either it is failing, or there is a connection associated with the alt that is intermittent. The regulator varies a DC pulse width to the stator, thus maintaining the DC voltage to the "load". IF the regulator is breaking down when hot, OR the plug-in connector on the back of the alternator (or some other) is intermittent, then the regulator will not increase the stator current pulse width - especially at low speed - and the DC voltage "falls out of regulation". RE That connection that drives/supplies the regulator: It is a connector on the back of the alternator, and if it is loose/corroded, the alternator output can be low, or erratic as hell, depending on the nature of the contacts. (I tried all my tricks to enlarge this schematic (from the FSM), but you'll probably have to save it and look at it outside this post to better see it.) __________________ All That Said... Now I'll tell ya what really intrigues me...That surging! The video shows the voltage fluctuations are in coincidence with an idle surging - not the surge as much as when the rpm falls off is when the voltage drops "out of regulation". My point is, there is a chance it is not the regulator or the alternator per se', but a combination of the rpm surging/fall off that is coincident with the voltage dropping out of regulation at low rpm (a FACT we see in the video clip...a very helpful video clip too, I might add!), aggravated by the under-driven alternator!? Bottom line: I'd try to eliminate a few things first- First I'd want to eliminate that surging at idle (usually due to an air (vacuum) leak). That eliminated, see what the alternator voltage does. If the surging is eliminated and the voltage is still out of regulation (assuming idle is 700 rpm or better), then I'd be considering putting the stock pulley back on the alt and see what that does. Then, with those two items eliminated, if the regulator isn't regulating, then I'd be checking that connector plug on the back of the alt to be sure all is clean there. With a faulty connection being eliminated...now you're down to the regulator itself. Time to pull that alternator and swap regulators (with a quality one this time) as re-builders don't always use "the good stuff". Good luck my man! P.

12-09-2008	#15
WB9MCW Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: McHenry, Il. Posts: 6,607	Re: Charging system Problem ! Hadi my old speedboat would always start but it had this same surge thing at idle in the no wake zones -- I would notice it a night the most since the lights were on. My mech. changed out the alt too and no fix -- he spent many hours on this one and it in the end turned out to be a multi-junction connector on the wire harness that had a bunch of corrosion on it and after a replacement of the mega connector all was well. He never did figure it out it was the factory that actually came up with the idea to check that connector-- he only charged me $100 in the end since that was all the repair should have cost. he told me that he had at least 100 hours in the investigation however -- good thing he is one of my neighbors and a good friend too!! lucky me on that one. __________________ http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...9mcw/SIG-2.jpg http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o128/wb9mcw/vcm.gif "The Budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero, 55 BC " We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln

12-23-2008	#16
HADI-ZR1 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Charging system Problem ! Happy holiday my friends. update: I bought new battery 56A. i noticed that when the car at first start warm up, the charging needle show at 3/4 (900 RPM), then it goes to 1/2 @ 900 RPM. when engine is warm! what is your conclusion? Last edited by HADI-ZR1; 12-23-2008 at 10:49 PM.