ZR-1s in this Economy

[rhipsher]

Originally Posted by flyin ryan

I've been saying/thinking this for a while now...Wait until our cars hit 20 years then see what happens, not fair to expect anything good to happen until then, going off history & you know what they say...'History repeats itself'. People that bought ZR-1's or ZR1's & expected or think they had the world by the tail & would make a killing after 4-5-6-7 years etc., that was plain foolishness on their part, IMO. 20 years for our cars in a couple months . Not saying for sure something will happen but, myself, not expecting our cars to rise at all until 'At Least' the 20 year mark. Then the fun will start. We'll see .

SHhhh! Ryan don't jinks me. I'd like to buy another one at these great low prices before the prices go up.

[tomtom72]

Thanks Ryan for understanding what I was trying to say, and for understanding that I was not trying to be an A-hole towards you! I hear ya about speaking directly to people and not being understood!

This just occurred to me, and all of this is JMHO. In this economy, or any bad downturn, collectible cars do take a hit. I mean I watched the B-J auctions in 08 and the prices for even "real" collectibles were down, right?

Does any one know how many AC cobras they made? Okay bad example. How about how many C2 BB vettes? I don't know but from 65 thru 69 there can't have been more than 6k cars, right? That spans two generations. More importantly do we know how many numbers cars are left? Oh, not to be obtuse, remember that the VIN didn't tell you what motor till 72. We will not have much difficulty being numbers cars.

C4 ZR-1's will either have to have serious attrition, or be recognized for the "C-change" in motor thinking that they caused....no pun intended....in the std push rod V8 at GM. Look at all the stuff that the LT5 spawned in the LSx series, no? I feel that those facts are our strongest claim on becoming a collector car? It can't be rarity, right, so it has to be uniqueness? The issue as I see it is that no one actually knows enough about an LT5 for the pirated innovations to be a factor making the LT5 unique. No one knows what a monumental task it is to do R&D, proto-typing, and performance verification and certification of a new motor, and do all of that at the same time! Just for a little context. Ford was doing a clean sheet of paper on their OHC motors, "the modular motor", almost at the same time and when did that one come to completion, and at what cost? I believe 93?

I think that right now our cars are not really that bad off as even a rough ZR-1 is at least 50% higher in price than the equivalent regular C4. That isn't too bad of a price unless you remember that when new the car was double the price of it's standard counterpart. I think that we wish our cars were at their respective original sticker prices, as we feel that is their rightful place. I just don't think that is realistic. I think we are right around where you could realistically expect our used cars to be in a bad market. When the economic situation gets well, we should see an upward movement. I still don't see that upward movement being on the scale of any benchmark collectibles.

JMHO

Tom

[flyin ryan]

Originally Posted by tomtom72

Look at all the stuff that the LT5 spawned in the LSx series, no? I feel that those facts are our strongest claim on becoming a collector car? It can't be rarity, right, so it has to be uniqueness? The issue as I see it is that no one actually knows enough about an LT5 for the pirated innovations to be a factor making the LT5 unique. No one knows what a monumental task it is to do R&D, proto-typing, and performance verification and certification of a new motor, and do all of that at the same time!

Yup...your right.

[bb62]

Originally Posted by tomtom72

How about how many C2 BB vettes? I don't know but from 65 thru 69 there can't have been more than 6k cars, right?

There were a lot more than 6K big block Corvettes from 65 to 69 – more like 50K

1965 – 2,157 425HP
1966 – 5,116 390HP
1966 – 5,258 425HP
1967 – 3,832 390HP
1967 – 2,101 400HP
1967 – 3,738 435HP
1967 – 16 435HP (AL heads)
1967 – 20 430HP (L88)
1968 – 7,717 390HP
1968 – 1,932 400HP
1968 – 2,274 435HP
1968 – 624 435HP (Al heads)
1968 – 80 430HP (L88)
1969 – 10,531 390HP
1969 – 2,072 400HP
1969 – 2,332 435HP
1969 – 390 435HP (Al heads)
1969 – 116 430HP (L88)
1969 – 2 430HP (Al block ZL1)

Total – 50,308 BBs from 65-69

And to top it off, from 70 to 74 they made another 21,577 big block Corvettes.

[xlr8nflorida]

Good talking to ya last night.

Thanks for taking the time out of your day.

[tomtom72]

Okay, so much for my knowledge of BB corvettes!

Thanks bb62!
Then my next Q's would be: Why, if there were that many, are these things worth so much? Not many survived intact, right?

Just some musing's on my part:
I would guess that market perception makes up more of the value than simply hard numbers of cars left intact? If that is the case, then our ZR-1's may be destined to become just an unusual footnote in the lineage of the corvette to the "market at large"? That makes me a bit sad because, JMHO, our cars signify an inflection point in the lineage, No? How much longer would it have taken to get to the LSx series motors if the LT5's did not exist?


Tom

[ZRWON]

Originally Posted by tomtom72

Okay, so much for my knowledge of BB corvettes!
Thanks bb62!
Then my next Q's would be: Why, if there were that many, are these things worth so much? Not many survived intact, right?
Just some musing's on my part:
I would guess that market perception makes up more of the value than simply hard numbers of cars left intact? If that is the case, then our ZR-1's may be destined to become just an unusual footnote in the lineage of the corvette to the "market at large"? That makes me a bit sad because, JMHO, our cars signify an inflection point in the lineage, No? How much longer would it have taken to get to the LSx series motors if the LT5's did not exist?Tom

If you ask those questions to the NCRS folks or the mechanics who specialized in working on Vettes over the past 30+ years they'd tell you there are/were more BB Vettes around than the production figures bb62 listed. Even to this day you'll find "claimed to be" original collector BB Vettes with truck motors etc in them. IMHO, it's "caveat emptor" when it comes to shopping for an old BB Vette

[bb62]

Originally Posted by tomtom72

Okay, so much for my knowledge of BB corvettes!

Thanks bb62!
Then my next Q's would be: Why, if there were that many, are these things worth so much? Not many survived intact, right?

Just some musing's on my part:
I would guess that market perception makes up more of the value than simply hard numbers of cars left intact? If that is the case, then our ZR-1's may be destined to become just an unusual footnote in the lineage of the corvette to the "market at large"? That makes me a bit sad because, JMHO, our cars signify an inflection point in the lineage, No? How much longer would it have taken to get to the LSx series motors if the LT5's did not exist?


Tom

Tom, You are right. Not many survived. These cars were raced, modified, had blown engines, were abused, were crashed, and used up. The ones that do survive (especially in unrestored form) are special. The difference between the perception of the big block age and the ZR-1s is that the BBs were the pinnacle of their age. The ZR-1 is "just" considered the re-awakening of serious performance for the Corvette.

Originally Posted by ZRWON

If you ask those questions to the NCRS folks or the mechanics who specialized in working on Vettes over the past 30+ years they'd tell you there are/were more BB Vettes around than the production figures bb62 listed. Even to this day you'll find "claimed to be" original collector BB Vettes with truck motors etc in them. IMHO, it's "caveat emptor" when it comes to shopping for an old BB Vette

The first sentence is definitely not true. There certainly are not 50K BB 65-69 Corvettes out there. Many of these cars were thrashed and destroyed back in the day. Imagine all that torque on skinny tires for cars that were used in everyday traffic for the life of the vehicle. Unlike the ZR-1, there were very few cars put away as "investments", they were used - which is why the low mileage cars are so rare.

Quite frankly, most of the good cars out there are known. The fakes are also generally known as well (so you second sentence is true - one does need to be careful). Two years ago at Barrett-Jackson there were 3 or 4 67 435HP cars. All were fakes - but the point is it was easy to determine. There are about 15 67 435HP cars that are unrestored and in top flight condition (of the 3700 or so produced). But there are certainly not 3700 67 435 HP cars out there - never mind all the rest of the BB C2 and C3s.

[bb62]

Originally Posted by xlr8nflorida

Good talking to ya last night.

Thanks for taking the time out of your day.

Anytime.

[tomtom72]

Thank you again bb62 for the insight.
I guess I should make clear that I was not insinuating that those bb C2 & C3's should not be valuable because of the initial production numbers. I just re-read my post and to me it sounds like "sour grapes" on my part as a "disgruntled" ZR-1 owner whining about how come nobody recognizes the worth of my car!

JMHO. Considering how many of those cars are left intact and the time it took for them to get to their present value, I think us ZR-1 owners will have to wait a bit longer, maybe another 10 to 15 yrs at least? I would also doubt that attrition will help our cause as I do firmly believe that we will not "use them up like they did in the old days". As a group, I believe that we are too "aware" that our cars are not "disposable". You can't counterfeit a C4 ZR-1, well, alright, not easily nor cheaply.

My conclusion is that ZR-1's are kind of fairly priced by the market. They are for the most part about 50% higher to double the value of any regular C4, except the GS's & other specialty C4's. With that in mind, I think I will continue to drive mine every chance I get and put as many miles on her as I please because that's how I derive value on my $ spent on her!


Tom