I've got a serious problem

[Paul Workman]

Originally Posted by vilant

Well, I got a price for the injectors and gaskets deliverd for $750 from FIC(not sure if they included plugs,wires, or coils, but I don't think they were). If I have to get it towed, at least $300. I'll need spark plugs, maybe wires $100-$200, I'm guessing cause I haven't looked. And if I need MAP, Cam sensor, guessing another $200. I hoping it'll be under $1000, but it could mushroom up to 2K, if there's anything else wrong, etc. Fuel regulator or pump, valves, vacuum pump, some other sensor I might not know about.

Well, Joe, I understand where you got the idea some of the rest of the parts might need replacing. But, I wouldn't bleed till I got cut. Troubleshooting trumps "shotgunning" (read: change parts till the problem goes away), and I feel you're looking at a worst case scenario unnecessarily. Just wouldn't want ya to worry jes yet, buddy.

JMO, but since you have a 90, the chances the OEM injectors will go bad (quoting Marc Haibeck) "...is 100%". (Mine were replaced by a dealer prior to purchasing the car. The dealer used NOS injectors, and I had to replace them again 3 years later!) My point is, it is so well established that the OEM injectors on the 90-92s (primarily) will fail at 100%, might as well R&R the bitches up front - a good chance that could be the problem now (but will be later "fer sher"). Then, if that doesn't fix it, revert to proper troubleshooting for the rest, e.g., fuel delivery tests, coils (as needed), MAP voltage verification, etc.

Keep us posted.

P.

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by Paul Workman

Well, Joe, I understand where you got the idea some of the rest of the parts might need replacing. But, I wouldn't bleed till I got cut. Troubleshooting trumps "shotgunning" (read: change parts till the problem goes away), and I feel you're looking at a worst case scenario unnecessarily. Just wouldn't want ya to worry jes yet, buddy.

...snip...

I have to agree just bulk replacing stuff under the plenum seems wrong even if you have the $ to burn. Sounds like injectors are cheap insurance and maybe wires if there old but I'd just test things like coils and secondary actuators. Based on symptom listed in 6th I'd pay close attention to those coils.

[vilant]

Well I made it home (thank the Lord, lol). You know, when I started the car again everything seemed fine, other than it was idling high @1500. But when I got to the halfway point it started exactly the same as the way down, then got progressively worse. By the time I pulled in the driveway felt like I was running on 3 or 5 cylinders. Definitly going to get AAA, once I get it up and running again. So sad right now as I'm going to have to store it until I can afford to fix it , probably beginning of Jan. maybe sooner. I'll see what codes have come up and get a list of parts I'll need. Injectors are a definite and I'll ask you guys if I need anything else from the codes I got. Thanks fellas for you advice and I'll be asking for help in the not too far future.

[Kevin]

sent you a pm

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by vilant

Well I made it home (thank the Lord, lol). You know, when I started the car again everything seemed fine, other than it was idling high @1500. But when I got to the halfway point it started exactly the same as the way down, then got progressively worse. By the time I pulled in the driveway felt like I was running on 3 or 5 cylinders. Definitly going to get AAA, once I get it up and running again. So sad right now as I'm going to have to store it until I can afford to fix it , probably beginning of Jan. maybe sooner. I'll see what codes have come up and get a list of parts I'll need. Injectors are a definite and I'll ask you guys if I need anything else from the codes I got. Thanks fellas for you advice and I'll be asking for help in the not too far future.

Could be as simple as a fuel pump starting to fail.

[jimmy b.]

Hi Joe sorry to hear about your problems with your Z but I gotta agree with Paul and Scott. Replacing all those parts might not really get you any further than you are now plus all the money you just wasted. I would try and diagnose the problem first with the FSM. This is what I did and it helped me a lot...jim

[tomtom72]

Glad you made it home safely, Joe! This is just a fwiw on your symptoms and the laundry list of DTC's you posted about in the first post.

The behavior of it getting worse after a good while of running time does point to a possible electrical issue. Ign coils can behave that way if the windings have developed a short; also our OE injector coils behave that way when the alcohol finally dissolves enough of the coil varnish. You could ohm out the coils by going from one plug end to the other plug end in the paring. You can also ohm out the injectors as there is a how to over here in solutions and at Marc's site. Just be careful using the ECM harness plugs as your probe point to ohm the injectors. Most DVOM probes are too big for the female terminals on the ECM plugs. They spread the terminal too much as to not allow good contact later, and you do not want that situation. Usually our fuel pumps either work or they don't. There isn't much in between but a KOEO pressure test would be good to do. Usually if they are really tired you can get a winking SES light under heavy acceleration with a lean DTC.

I'm curious about the laundry list of DTC's. Did you pull them yourself or did the emission's inspection station show you the list? You didn't say you had a SES light on in the DIC? I figure that they are "H" DTC's ( H = history and they are stored in the CCM ). MAP hi & low, cam sensor right? They could be due to the connectors needing a cleaning, or oil in the MAP sensor & hose, or the wrong hose on the MAP sensor. That hose is supposed to be hard plastic to prevent the engine vacuum sucking it shut. Also, dirty or loose engine grounds could cause DTC's that are not real.

So how do you want to proceed with your diagnostics? JMHO. I'd do the diagnostics first, then decide after pulling & running all the DTC's to ground which ones are real vs due to some other issue like bad grounds. Then you're left with what actually is broken and or wearing out for a shopping list.


Tom

Sorry as I forgot this. High idle? All the time now? This is a new symptom? Could be a new vacuum leak. You didn't by chance check to see the MAP hose is not blown off?

[dredgeguy]

I have had my 92 ZR1 for a few months and first thing I did was change the injectors to the FIC stainless steel, got new wires and coil packs from Jerry. One other thing, mine has 62,000 miles on it and when I changed the oil/filter also changed the fuel filter. Found out the fuel filter was original and stuffed with gunk.
Runs like a new car now thanks to the Wazoo gang

[scottfab]

Joe
Boy after rereading you last post and how it started fine and ran for a bit... etc I got to say it sounds exactly like mine did as the primary fuel pump began to intermittently fail last year. It had run fine for many years then began to chug-a-lug sometimes. (ethanol related???)

It may have great fuel pressure upon start up then start petering out. Mine would start acting weird even before the engine was warmed. In retrospect I should have carried the fuel pressure gauge with me and slapped it on as soon and the symptoms came back. As a result of NOT doing that I ended up with a nice AAA sponsored flatbed ride

Now I have a secondary fuel pump bypass switch. It turns on FP2 so that if FP1 fails again I have a way home.

[vilant]

Originally Posted by tomtom72

Glad you made it home safely, Joe! This is just a fwiw on your symptoms and the laundry list of DTC's you posted about in the first post.

The behavior of it getting worse after a good while of running time does point to a possible electrical issue. Ign coils can behave that way if the windings have developed a short; also our OE injector coils behave that way when the alcohol finally dissolves enough of the coil varnish. You could ohm out the coils by going from one plug end to the other plug end in the paring. You can also ohm out the injectors as there is a how to over here in solutions and at Marc's site. Just be careful using the ECM harness plugs as your probe point to ohm the injectors. Most DVOM probes are too big for the female terminals on the ECM plugs. They spread the terminal too much as to not allow good contact later, and you do not want that situation. Usually our fuel pumps either work or they don't. There isn't much in between but a KOEO pressure test would be good to do. Usually if they are really tired you can get a winking SES light under heavy acceleration with a lean DTC.

I'm curious about the laundry list of DTC's. Did you pull them yourself or did the emission's inspection station show you the list? You didn't say you had a SES light on in the DIC? I figure that they are "H" DTC's ( H = history and they are stored in the CCM ). MAP hi & low, cam sensor right? They could be due to the connectors needing a cleaning, or oil in the MAP sensor & hose, or the wrong hose on the MAP sensor. That hose is supposed to be hard plastic to prevent the engine vacuum sucking it shut. Also, dirty or loose engine grounds could cause DTC's that are not real.

So how do you want to proceed with your diagnostics? JMHO. I'd do the diagnostics first, then decide after pulling & running all the DTC's to ground which ones are real vs due to some other issue like bad grounds. Then you're left with what actually is broken and or wearing out for a shopping list.


Tom

Sorry as I forgot this. High idle? All the time now? This is a new symptom? Could be a new vacuum leak. You didn't by chance check to see the MAP hose is not blown off?

No, I didn't pull the codes the inspection place did. I know he said there was a bunch of codes and gave me the list, but they could of been stored, because I never saw SES light once while driving it. Here was the the original list of codes
13-left oxygen sensor open 14-Hi coolant temp 21-TPS cir Hi 22-TPS cir low 23-MAT sensor low temp Hi 31-camshaft sensor cir 32-(I believe he said this was the SRC right shock, it's not in the FSM) 33-MAP sensor hi-lo sensor 34-MAP sensor lo-hi vac 42-electronic spark timing cir 43-electronic spark control cir.
He cleared the codes so now I'll go back in and see what I got. And it was only idling high after the first time I started it when the original failure started. Once I left OCNJ, I was on the highway for over an hour and when I got back to city driving the idle was normal again, but stumbling badly. Everything looks fine on the engine, hose wise.