Megasquirt? What's the Situation?

[rkreigh]

Originally Posted by spork2367

I think maybe you're misunderstanding my post. The ms3pro is fantastic and supports the things you listed. You just don't gain enough removing the DIS to make it worthwhile, even with the ms3pro. Unless you're planning on building a flat plane crank hill climber..., anything more than the ms3pro is lipstick on a pig. The basic architecture and limitations of the engine just don't warrant a 4-10k custom ecu.

I run the manufacturing engineering department in a facility that designs and builds our own engines. From air cooled horizontally opposed carbureted engines to mechanical fuel injected engines, to liquid cooled 4 cylinder direct injection diesel engines to 2 stroke multi-fuel single cylinder drone engines, to our certified TEO-540-C1A electronically controlled engines with an ECU that rivals the cost of your ZR-1. I understand exactly what you can do with expensive ECUs from arguably some of the worlds best ECU manufacturers.

dayuum, I'm sorry, didn't mean to come across too nasty. I'm trying to prep the car for a twin turbo setup and the MS3 pro will work. secret I believe is to keep the stocker ecm, and just take away the engine management functions cutting into the wiring like we do on the c5


it's not trivial, but the MS3pro with a standar wiring harness starts around 1300 so it's not super expensive.


For my "use case" I have a Haltech platinum s2000 ecm with dual wb and 8 channel egt that actually would be a better candidate, and fully capable of running the engine, drive 8 coils, and do everything I need. Plus it's paid for.



Soooo what I really need is someone who undertands the wiring like the back of their hand. The tech support from Haltech is fantastic and they provide exactly how to "cut it in" and piggy back the haltech along side the factory ecm


but with the new gauge packages, and things available, not really sure I care about any of the stocker gauges. The virtual stuff when setup right provides all critical engine info at a glance along with logging and playback functions.



very cool stuff. see the new haltech nexus. they are doing some pretty innovative stuff with the can bus and power management now.


my old haltech also has an amp driver box so I can control the alchy injection pump. I'm looking to stuff some alchy shots down the old gals throat and do dual fuel. pump gas for most off boost and alchy for everything above say around 4 psi or so.


Might not do intercooling as the alchy does a good job of that and it saves some hassle and plumbing.


So here's a relatively "easy" experiment that I'm wanting to try.


Leave the stock ecm dis and all that stuff "as is" with a custom tune and "layer in the sweetness" of another set of injectors running e85 served up by a hobbs switch triggering the other dedicated ecm to come online


both tunes will have to be manipulated together but it's essentially just an (AIC - additional injector controller) which is pretty easy to do with a custom intake.


So I'm looking to take a baby step toward the twin turbo with the right octane fuel to feed the beast and not be quite so complicated to lash up.


the two computers don't know about each other so the stock driveability and ignition control isn't impacted at all.


and when the boost comes on, a stiff drink is served up.



I'd never cut up my bifurcation intake that lpe did for me (maybe it was graham!!_) but it can be done pretty easy with a high rise hood and my hood needs to go on a diet (got a big scratch on it too@)


just musing a bit, maybe graham will chime in on tuning the TT with the Linc AIC setup As I recall they let the stock ecm control the primary (like in key off mode) and had the link do the squirts on the big side with a larger injector


smart man that graham might be time to dust off some of that wisdom


the integration is SOOOO much easier and the functionality is what I'm after the dual wb and egts to help trim each cyl and give it what it wants and needs


can't do that with a stocker ecm


and you guys are right, the DIS panic is over rated, they don't fail often


Only dis issue I had was with my old "wolf" 93 LPE 475 car, it had upgraded rods, pistons with the stocker liners and was a joy to drive


that car had to sit outside and the dis would code and complain and the car would run like crap until it warmed up


if I kept in the garage it never had the issue It was just hating the other 2 Zs that I had at the time that were the garage queens


ohhh to go back to those days when 3 Zs were mine!! I took 2 of them out and "racing against my own car" with my buddy driving. DRM vs 95 with 4.10s and headers


dead heat with the win going to the best bulb We hot lapped those cars until we got too tired to make any more runs

[XfireZ51]

I would still like to quantify if there is anything to be gained w CnP on an LT5 w typical mods, ie cams, porting exhaust.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

I would still like to quantify if there is anything to be gained w CnP on an LT5 w typical mods, ie cams, porting exhaust.

Short answer...no.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by rkreigh

dayuum, I'm sorry, didn't mean to come across too nasty. I'm trying to prep the car for a twin turbo setup and the MS3 pro will work. secret I believe is to keep the stocker ecm, and just take away the engine management functions cutting into the wiring like we do on the c5


it's not trivial, but the MS3pro with a standar wiring harness starts around 1300 so it's not super expensive.


For my "use case" I have a Haltech platinum s2000 ecm with dual wb and 8 channel egt that actually would be a better candidate, and fully capable of running the engine, drive 8 coils, and do everything I need. Plus it's paid for.



Soooo what I really need is someone who undertands the wiring like the back of their hand. The tech support from Haltech is fantastic and they provide exactly how to "cut it in" and piggy back the haltech along side the factory ecm


but with the new gauge packages, and things available, not really sure I care about any of the stocker gauges. The virtual stuff when setup right provides all critical engine info at a glance along with logging and playback functions.



very cool stuff. see the new haltech nexus. they are doing some pretty innovative stuff with the can bus and power management now.


my old haltech also has an amp driver box so I can control the alchy injection pump. I'm looking to stuff some alchy shots down the old gals throat and do dual fuel. pump gas for most off boost and alchy for everything above say around 4 psi or so.


Might not do intercooling as the alchy does a good job of that and it saves some hassle and plumbing.


So here's a relatively "easy" experiment that I'm wanting to try.


Leave the stock ecm dis and all that stuff "as is" with a custom tune and "layer in the sweetness" of another set of injectors running e85 served up by a hobbs switch triggering the other dedicated ecm to come online


both tunes will have to be manipulated together but it's essentially just an (AIC - additional injector controller) which is pretty easy to do with a custom intake.


So I'm looking to take a baby step toward the twin turbo with the right octane fuel to feed the beast and not be quite so complicated to lash up.


the two computers don't know about each other so the stock driveability and ignition control isn't impacted at all.


and when the boost comes on, a stiff drink is served up.



I'd never cut up my bifurcation intake that lpe did for me (maybe it was graham!!_) but it can be done pretty easy with a high rise hood and my hood needs to go on a diet (got a big scratch on it too@)


just musing a bit, maybe graham will chime in on tuning the TT with the Linc AIC setup As I recall they let the stock ecm control the primary (like in key off mode) and had the link do the squirts on the big side with a larger injector


smart man that graham might be time to dust off some of that wisdom


the integration is SOOOO much easier and the functionality is what I'm after the dual wb and egts to help trim each cyl and give it what it wants and needs


can't do that with a stocker ecm


and you guys are right, the DIS panic is over rated, they don't fail often


Only dis issue I had was with my old "wolf" 93 LPE 475 car, it had upgraded rods, pistons with the stocker liners and was a joy to drive


that car had to sit outside and the dis would code and complain and the car would run like crap until it warmed up


if I kept in the garage it never had the issue It was just hating the other 2 Zs that I had at the time that were the garage queens


ohhh to go back to those days when 3 Zs were mine!! I took 2 of them out and "racing against my own car" with my buddy driving. DRM vs 95 with 4.10s and headers


dead heat with the win going to the best bulb We hot lapped those cars until we got too tired to make any more runs

Are you going to respond to me?????????????????

[XfireZ51]

Originally Posted by spork2367

Short answer...no.

Please elaborate on your experience w this. Do go on.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

Please elaborate on your experience w this. Do go on.

I could counter this with a question to you. What do you think you would gain with coil on plug? I'm not sure what elaboration you want.

The ignition is not a limiting factor on making power within the realm of what is considered standard modifications on an LT5. You are not limited by the ability to modify the ignition outputs.

These engines are not known for weak ignition, or a high rate of coil failure due to heat, or any issues you might alleviate by moving the coil closer to the plug or out in the open.

The megasquirt is capable of handling ignition timing changes for boosted applications.

The only real advantage would be the ability to adjust timing by cylinder, which isn't going to do much for LT5 people at the power levels we're looking at. You would have additional diagnostics ability by utilizing sequential fuel injection in conjunction with CoP, but that's a nice to have, not a necessity. You could possibly do some fine tuning to decrease emissions as well, but I don't think that's a big ask as a car in good condition passes current emissions standards.

I think there is a general misconception about what drove OEMs to CoP to begin with. Reliability, fuel efficiency and emissions. Not power.

[XfireZ51]

My response to you was an straight up inquiry.Its unfortunate if you took it as anything else. I was simply asking for any evidence or experience you may have for your statement. If you have either or both I would be appreciative of your sharing it. Could save me time and effort.

Originally Posted by spork2367

I could counter this with a question to you. What do you think you would gain with coil on plug? I'm not sure what elaboration you want.

The ignition is not a limiting factor on making power within the realm of what is considered standard modifications on an LT5. You are not limited by the ability to modify the ignition outputs.

These engines are not known for weak ignition, or a high rate of coil failure due to heat, or any issues you might alleviate by moving the coil closer to the plug or out in the open.

The megasquirt is capable of handling ignition timing changes for boosted applications.

The only real advantage would be the ability to adjust timing by cylinder, which isn't going to do much for LT5 people at the power levels we're looking at. You would have additional diagnostics ability by utilizing sequential fuel injection in conjunction with CoP, but that's a nice to have, not a necessity. You could possibly do some fine tuning to decrease emissions as well, but I don't think that's a big ask as a car in good condition passes current emissions standards.

I think there is a general misconception about what drove OEMs to CoP to begin with. Reliability, fuel efficiency and emissions. Not power.

[tpepmeie]

Originally Posted by spork2367

The ignition is not a limiting factor on making power within the realm of what is considered standard modifications on an LT5. You are not limited by the ability to modify the ignition outputs.

These engines are not known for weak ignition, or a high rate of coil failure due to heat, or any issues you might alleviate by moving the coil closer to the plug or out in the open.


I think there is a general misconception about what drove OEMs to CoP to begin with. Reliability, fuel efficiency and emissions. Not power.

I tend to agree with all of this. To be fair, I have not done back-to-back testing to prove it (nor has anybody else). However, I have never found the ignition system lacking or causing a misfire in any of the builds I have done and tested. The two-tower coils seem to have plenty of energy, at least for N/A builds. I am not aware of any ignition related misfires on the few boosted cars out there. I suppose a rich methanol mixture might benefit from higher spark energy, but nobody has a methanol LT5....

Aside from the emissions and diagnostic benefits noted above, the only other compelling reason to go to individual coil ignition is a situation where the engine speed is high enough (and coil dwell long enough) that there is not enough time to fully charge the coils. That isn't remotely a problem for the LT5 coils at the engine speeds we run.

Apologies to the OP for getting this thread slightly off his original topic. Always happy to discuss further in another thread, or this one too.
Todd

[rkreigh]

you can make all the power you want with all stock stuff, no need to ever innovate or use faster processors, EGT, dual WB or tune by cyl, just keep the car stock if that floats your boat, not me.



when you start to increase cyl pressures, run E85, and push the limits, I'd rather have a more advanced engine management system than what GM did back in the 80s



Nothing wrong with it, but it's not up to par with current technology on many levels.


the stock system has been proven to support up to 700 hp and works just fine up to that and beyond.


but there are NO safeguards on par with what the MS3 pro or other systems or advanced individual cyl tuning like aftermarket systems have the ability to do. Integration will be a huge PITA and indeed NOT worth it to most. for normally aspirated, clearly gains would be not worth the squeeze.



Tuning with the stock stuff is not a limiting factor until you get to the limits which are beyond where most have been.


Thanks for your thoughts.

[XfireZ51]

Ron,

Our community hasn?t gotten to where it has w 30yo technology by not pushing the envelope or adhering to common wisdom. The LT5 is very much a DIY project which is one of the characteristics that attracted me to it. And our ZRs are very much an expression of ourselves especially on the Registry.