Refinishing the engine - Would it take away NCRS points?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by taximan1

Well said,

The bottomline is this. No matter what any of us think about NCRS, or "NCRS type" shows, the value of all of your zr1 's in the future will be determined by condition and originality. No other organization in the world sets the standard to knowledgeable Corvette buyers, like the NCRS.

Think about it... in 10, 15, 20 years and beyond, you will have the most limited production, full VIN produced Corvette since the 1953 Corvette. When investors, or plain old buyers for that matter, look for these cars in the future, they are going to look for originality, and condition. They won't care how reliable a particular zr1 was when SCCA raced, or how fast another did the quarter mile with a LPE makeover. They will want originality, and condition. It has been that way for every Corvette since 1953.

This doesn't mean that anyone who cusomizes or races their zr1 is wrong. They are not. Their is no right or wrong answer. If a zr1 gives its owner many years of pleasure by beating it down a 1/4 mile track, then that owner made the right choice. If an original owner is a big time "waxer", then that works for him.

If you don't care what your zr1 is worth down the road, then none of this matters. If you do care, you have to realize that the NCRS is extremely well respected as one of the ultimate sources of value (ie. originality and condition).

The NCRS is not the be all end all of vette knowledge. I can garuntee that there are people on this site that know more about the ZR-1 than what is in the manuals. There are many things that need to be changed out to help the car run better than the way it left the factory. Besides pumping money into the ZR-1, GM did very little to help the ZR-1. Hell you can make a 570 rwhp ZR-1 look stock save the powder coating of the plenum/cam covers. There was so many of these cars that were/may have/ could possibly have been worked over at the factory that no one actually knows what is from the factory and what isn't.

Originally Posted by Kevin

The NCRS is not the be all end all of vette knowledge. I can garuntee that there are people on this site that know more about the ZR-1 than what is in the manuals. There are many things that need to be changed out to help the car run better than the way it left the factory. Besides pumping money into the ZR-1, GM did very little to help the ZR-1. Hell you can make a 570 rwhp ZR-1 look stock save the powder coating of the plenum/cam covers. There was so many of these cars that were/may have/ could possibly have been worked over at the factory that no one actually knows what is from the factory and what isn't.

I agree with that. I have torn down numerous LT5's and have noticed date stamping on these cars is not the norm. As most of the parts were made in a one time batch and then made no more. Pretty cool to see a 92 LT5 with a date stamp from 89' on the injector housing. JIT production really throws a monkey wrench into things. How is the NCRS going to account for somebody who has added Dunn heads to a 95 model that didn't have them originally. What's the paperwork that is going back the judge up on that one?

I can also throw done a few different injector housings that are brand new and do not have any paint match.

Kevin does bring up a good point on porting. If NCRS wants bone stock true to the delivery floor representations, you're not going to get that. Some of the later cars recieved special touches.

[taximan1]

I don't disagree with anything either of you have said. I can guarantee that people on this forum, and people like Marc Haibeck could make huge improvements in the ZR1. But thats not what NCRS is all about. Their goal is simple, "preservation and presentation of the car as it left the factory". And that is not a perfect science either.

I remember about 15 years ago at Carlisle talking to a St. Louis factory line assembler who was there with Zora Duntov. He was chuckling at the NCRS flight judging going on next to the main pavillion. He said he didn't know how they could judge tthings like bolt patterns and markings, when in 1962 he was sent to the local hardware supplier to pick up bolts and screws for the last remaining 1962's being built before the model changeover.

Unfortunately people who put a lot of time and money in customizing their ZR1's will have to understand that they will suffer financially in the future for it. Thats not a criticism, just a fact. I have all the admiration in the world for guys that have the know how to take a sophisiticated machine like that and make it even better.

[Ed Hoffman]

Taximan, I also agree with part that has been said. I would like to add one more thing to this set. The LT5 motors were not built at the "GM Factory". I have talked to some of the motor techs at the Mercury Marine plant. They were very proud bunch of men and women. They had a work ethic that was far and above the UAW workers at Bowling Green, or St Louis. Kevin is also right. I was involved in the racing end of early Corvettes and had a lot of fun. I held the national record for C and D modified sports(IHRA) and C and D Gas(NHRA). I took a stock 327 to 331CI, Isky Flat tappet cam(505), Forgedtrue Pistons, Crankshaft Co Crank, 461 Heads with Olds 2.30 intakes and 1.7 exhaust, two bolt mains, Dough Triy headers, stock T-10, and 5.12 rear, pulling 27" tall, 11 D-4 Goodyears. The record was 9.96 at 143MPH. Try that in a 5.7 LT5. My point is that car lasted for two years before I crashed due to poor technology in the chassis. If I had kept the car as is today my $1800 investment and 5,000 in go fast stuff, would be worth between 75,000 to 100,000. It was an original Fuely car and I sold the FI unit for $100.00. I think wisdom is a time thing. I talk to guys that have said over and over, woulda, shoulda, coulda. If I had only known then what I know now. If you are far thinking you will go far. I think about the young and old bull. Young-lets run down and get one of those cows. Old-lets walk down and get them all. Keven, have fun with your ZR, but remember there were not a "lot of them made". There were 5,000+ 375Hp ZR,s and 1344 405Hp. There were 6,700+ 93 40th Annv. vettes made and 243 40th Annv ZR-1 vettes made. I know what is going to be worth big money. Thats the advantage of being an old bull. Have fun and so will I.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Ed Hoffman

Keven, have fun with your ZR, but remember there were not a "lot of them made". There were 5,000+ 375Hp ZR,s and 1344 405Hp. There were 6,700+ 93 40th Annv. vettes made and 243 40th Annv ZR-1 vettes made. I know what is going to be worth big money. Thats the advantage of being an old bull. Have fun and so will I.

you do realize that half of the production run of ZR-1s in 93 were ruby ZRs, correct? It's not that rare. And again, how are you going to check for ported heads/plenum/injector housings? Have the owner pull the plenum at the judging? Most owners won't know how to do that and the ones that do know, won't do it. What about injectors? Like I said, I could pass a 570 hp 415 ZR-1 off as stock and as long as I don't fire that bitch up, you'd never know it. I wonder how many ZR-1's still have the leaky stock oil lines. I guarantee I could have you go over my car and you wouldn't find half of the stuff I've done to it just by looking at it.

And with the windshields, that is just going to be a pita. Most of the owners now didn't buy a ZR-1 because it's the next collectible corvette, we bought them because we love to drive the hell out of them. I have 52,000 hard and happy miles on my car and it's running better every day. IMO NCRSing C4's and later is a waste of time.

[taximan1]

Rare is a relative term. Most people would agree that a 1967 Big Block is a relatively rare car. There were over 9,600 1967 BB Corvettes built.

Only part numbers that are easy to get to are checked. transmissions(transaxles) are not checked. Obviously many engine parts can't be checked.

Your right, the delaminating windshields will present a problem for a lot of people.

To give you an example, my uncle bought a 67' Corvette 427/400hp in 67 to do one thing: go fast, and race the crap out of it. The fartherest thing from his mind was collectability. But guess what.... 2 years ago he was in bad health, and forced to sell his car. He was disappointed in the value it would bring with its tubbed out fenders, race chopped interior, missing pass. seat, etc. So he had it restored , top flighted the car at a chapter meet, and sold it for almost 3 times what he was offered a year before. He made money even after the restoration.

My point is, that someone will eventually buy all the race equipped zr1's and restore them.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by taximan1

My point is, that someone will eventually buy all the race equipped zr1's and restore them.

there were only a few race preped ZR-1's and the most well known one is sitting in the NCM. It will be a sad day when people will start demodding big cube ZR-1s.....if that can even be done.

[Ed Hoffman]

Kevin, I really like the fire in your words. You sound a lot like me when I was your age. To answer your questions in a specific manner. Yes there were 243 Ruby ZR-1,s out of the 448 produced. You have to put that into a more specific perspective. Out of all the 6,900+ ZR-1,s that is 243. Do the math, out of 60,000+ 1967 to 1971 there were over 6,000 big blocks made. They are now 25 to 30 years old and not one of them have sold for under $150,000.00. I don't know how much you spent on your 375Hp, nor do I know how long you plane on keeping it, but all ZR-1 cars are increasing in value at the rate of 7 to 10 percent per year. My car (Window Sticker) was $71, 367.90. It went down to 25,000 to 30,000 from 1993 to 2004. It began to rise at the rate I indicated in 2005. The value of a 93 405Hp Ruby is now at 47,600,\. Kevin do the math. You own an original first year ZR-1, that has a value in itself. the first big block was a 1966 396-425Hp Vette. They are averaging 200,000 to 225,000 because they were the first year. Even if you don't like or subscribe to the NCRS doctrine their idea is simple. Keep it stock appearing and you will make money on your investment. Now lets go to the Dunn heads. In 1994 the company that was producing the LT5 heads went out of business(an english company) Mercury Marine contacted Lotis in England and were told that the Dunn Co. could finish the production run. In 1994 some of the ZLT5 motors had right hand Malie heads athe the left side were Dunn heads. For the remainder of the run, 1995, the heads were made by Dunn. What you might not know is all of the 1993 to 1995 LT5 motors were built in 1993. The last engine built was on Nov 21, 1993, at 1:30 P.M. and the last four of the engine number was 0003. Hows that for obscure information. Kevin if you would like to know anything else about the LT5 motor I have a lot more. Like what was the broom stick used for in the delicate measurment on the LT5 motor at Stillwater, Oaklahoma, home of Mercury Marine.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Ed Hoffman

Kevin, I really like the fire in your words. You sound a lot like me when I was your age. To answer your questions in a specific manner. Yes there were 243 Ruby ZR-1,s out of the 448 produced. You have to put that into a more specific perspective. Out of all the 6,900+ ZR-1,s that is 243. Do the math, out of 60,000+ 1967 to 1971 there were over 6,000 big blocks made. They are now 25 to 30 years old and not one of them have sold for under $150,000.00. I don't know how much you spent on your 375Hp, nor do I know how long you plane on keeping it, but all ZR-1 cars are increasing in value at the rate of 7 to 10 percent per year. My car (Window Sticker) was $71, 367.90. It went down to 25,000 to 30,000 from 1993 to 2004. It began to rise at the rate I indicated in 2005. The value of a 93 405Hp Ruby is now at 47,600,\. Kevin do the math. You own an original first year ZR-1, that has a value in itself. the first big block was a 1966 396-425Hp Vette. They are averaging 200,000 to 225,000 because they were the first year. Even if you don't like or subscribe to the NCRS doctrine their idea is simple. Keep it stock appearing and you will make money on your investment. Now lets go to the Dunn heads. In 1994 the company that was producing the LT5 heads went out of business(an english company) Mercury Marine contacted Lotis in England and were told that the Dunn Co. could finish the production run. In 1994 some of the ZLT5 motors had right hand Malie heads athe the left side were Dunn heads. For the remainder of the run, 1995, the heads were made by Dunn. What you might not know is all of the 1993 to 1995 LT5 motors were built in 1993. The last engine built was on Nov 21, 1993, at 1:30 P.M. and the last four of the engine number was 0003. Hows that for obscure information. Kevin if you would like to know anything else about the LT5 motor I have a lot more. Like what was the broom stick used for in the delicate measurment on the LT5 motor at Stillwater, Oaklahoma, home of Mercury Marine.

Ed, you havn't told me anything I don't already know. I've had my car since late 1999 when I was 17 and the car was $27,000 with 22,000 miles on it. I've put 30,000 miles on it durring the time I've had it and most of them have occured north of 3,000 rpms. As I said, I've done the NRCS judging schools and such till I got too busy with my degree and I had to move a few hundered miles from home. I'm aware of what the NCRS is and what it does, and and I hope that most ZR-1 owners keep driving and modding thier cars over the NCRS route. That's not what these cars where designed for.

Originally Posted by Ed Hoffman

the first big block was a 1966 396-425Hp Vette. They are averaging 200,000 to 225,000 because they were the first year.

Shouldn't that be 1965 for the big block with 66 being the first year of the 427?