Prices and Valuation

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Looking past all the GM fluff; my C4's still handle better than my newer Corvettes!

Best chassis "bang for buck" out there bar none. Arguably on par with a C5 in stock form. Easily better than a C5 with some reasonably priced parts and modifications.

[8cam]

The C4 is the bastard of the Corvette line and while the ZR-1 may be Jon Snow, it's still the bastard. Not to the folks here, but to the rest of the Corvette world, yeah pretty much. And I'm ok with that because I absolutely love the C4 style, clean almost European lines, and the LT5 is awesome. I do think the value will go up, but probably won't hit a rocket ride and probably not for a few years yet.

If I were to sell my car right now and I wanted it to really sell (not sit on the market forever), I'd probably price it at 17k and might have to take less. That's just reality. And that's for a sorted, reliable, every day driver ZR-1 that still looks good. Not ideal, but that's what 99% of cars do. Hitting one that jumps in value is rare - I've got one of them, but I've also had 40+ other cars that didn't.

[Vette73]

Interesting question would be if they do shoot up in value where would they be?

An average price for a good horsepower C3 I would say varies from 20-30K....Lets forget about the L-88 and the tri powers....

Average new price of a C3 way back I think was in the range of 5-6K......

So it's safe to say you can get maybe 3-5 times back your initial investment if you bought it new......

My 91 Z stickered at 65K.........Do I really really think twenty or so years from now my car will follow the same trend? No way....

I think what the previous posts were getting at is the fact that if you are maybe the fourth or fifth owner of the Z your investment should stay where it's at if taken care of, or maybe even go up slightly....

[Paul Workman]

First: I don't give a ratz azz about resale value; I'll keep it "forever".

Second: the tide of negative perception is formed by exaggeration of some issues, and the fatuous blather of those ignorant (and just plain jealous) "experts", may(?) affect the resale value. But, the truth of its performance and its iconic contribution to (Corvette) and its uniqueness is NOT diminished. (Ask anyone that gets behind the wheel, or has done some simple modifications.)

And, something else:

I've noticed that several credit agencies no longer will finance an "older" car (cars older than 7 years). There are exceptions, but I have to wonder just how much this affects the size of the market. Not everyone that wants a ZR-1 can plunk down $30 to 50k for what a nice Z might be worth. They might be able to do a second mortgage or home improvement loan (or whatever) as a bridge loan. But, the economy has put a great deal of downward pressure on discretionary spending, for sure!!

I summarize it this way...

(My) Pros:

• Uniqueness: The only DOHC corvette, complete w/ appropriate body accommodations and other appointments and limited numbers made!
  
• Performance: No slouch even by today's standards, and with passive modifications can still "elbow its way to a place at the bar" with contemporary cars. "Corners like it is on rails"
  
• Classic beauty: Subjective (granted), but it gets many unsolicited 'props' from the public; whether at a gas station or char show or supermarket. "Is that new?"
  
• Support: This forum (and others like it), the ZR-1 Net Registry members, the specialist vendors catering to the "Z", e.g., (and I hesitate to say because I can't mention them all, but...) Jerry's Gaskets, Haibeck Automotive Technology, Corey Henderson, SGC, Dempsey Anderson, Pete Polatsidis, AES, Dominic Sorresso, Bob Gillig, Jim Voter, Robert DeMarco, Brett Henderson, Mark Horner, WVZR-1, Cliff (aka Dynomite)...are a few that come to my humble mind.
  
• Reliability: "Bulletproof" IF well sorted out and maintained.
  
• DOHC: It is controversial, even among Corvette enthusiasts. However, its advantages - even among other GM products - are unmistakable and is ever more embraced by more of the automotive industry for its overall performance advantages.

some Cons (I admit) are:

• Local dealerships and independent shops (in general) are NOT a reliable source of repair.
  
• Parts are pretty much limited to other owners and a few specialists (e.g., Jerry's Gaskets). And, the cost for unique parts can be high.
  
• Some cars on the market suffer from neglect and lack of proper maintenance. This results in many new owners (especially) inheriting problems from the previous owner(s) for which they my not be equipped or yet skilled to deal with.
  
• These cars are getting old. Although most of the stuff that is failing is relatively easy to replace, the list can be comprehensive and daunting - especially to new owners.
  
• The technology is dated, pretty much, especially the diagnostics, suspension, etc. (But, on the other hand, some would say the new cars are unnecessarily appointed with a lot of "gee-wiz" stuff - more appropriate for a Cadillac than a true performance car.)
  
• Cost for "hot-rodding" performance upgrades: No question... The advantages of current production parts and after market parts of mass-production (motor) makes the same mod daunting to many (most?) would be Corvette buyers.
  
• Lack of lending institutions(?): May or may not be an issue with some. But, it seems to be a trend among those lenders I'm familiar with. What say U?

So, as I see it, there is a rift between market pricing and the car's true worth in all things not related to price. IMO, they ARE steal !!

[edram454]

Originally Posted by 8cam

The C4 is the bastard of the Corvette line and while the ZR-1 may be Jon Snow, it's still the bastard. Not to the folks here, but to the rest of the Corvette world, yeah pretty much. And I'm ok with that because I absolutely love the C4 style, clean almost European lines, and the LT5 is awesome. I do think the value will go up, but probably won't hit a rocket ride and probably not for a few years yet.

If I were to sell my car right now and I wanted it to really sell (not sit on the market forever), I'd probably price it at 17k and might have to take less. That's just reality. And that's for a sorted, reliable, every day driver ZR-1 that still looks good. Not ideal, but that's what 99% of cars do. Hitting one that jumps in value is rare - I've got one of them, but I've also had 40+ other cars that didn't.

I have to agree with you 8cam. I have had 7 Corvettes and I have owned c3's,c4 and c5. Generally the c2 is considered the best looking, then the c3, c5, etc.. the c4 was a huge change in styling geared toward aerodynamics and functionality. When I was younger I found them to be a bit boring and the least appealing. When I drove one it was far better than any c3 and handled better then my c5 also. I drove in a friends c2 and it felt like a dump truck with thin tires and lousy suspension. I have another friend who has a c1, c2 c6 and he routinely says his c1 rides just like a dump truck.

Over time I have come to appreciate the style of the c4 and why it has to look this way. It is the first generation that put the corvette on the map world wide with a base model car reaching speeds of 150mph because of body style refinements and higher technology of the engine systems. When the Zr-1 came out its wider rear quarters along with the huge tires gave it just right look and is way more appealing than regular c4 cars. I personally feel that it is a tight little aerodynamic hotrod that not only is relevant with todays modern performance but takes you back in time as a 26 year old classic. It does definitely have an aggressive look and the zr-1 moniker demands respect in any generation. It is the best Corvette I have owned when taking into account rarity, looks, innovation and performance and exclusivity which is why I am lucky to see another zr1 at any gathering. I felt like I had a very nice c5 but in a sea of c5 cookie cutter cars, my beautiful black on black supercharged etc.. just did not attract any attention.

Look at the auctions and you will see 150k cars less than 10 years ago selling for 20k. Only lucky dudes who bought l88's and had so much money that they can just sit for 45 years or very astute collector car dealers who find them relatively cheap and resell for millions are the only ones making a living off these cars. I wish I would have kept my fully restored big block c3 71 show winning corvette but I sold it for 16k. I could have got 36k today for that same car that I sold in 1998. Enjoy your zr1 and dont speculate about prices. Life is short and over before you know it. enjoy it.

ed ramos #3028

[Ereeves]

Not going to comment on the valuation side of things but I can tell you that all the track miles I have in my old C5Z and the few back road miles in my C4Z that the C5Z out handles it bar none. And my newer C6ZR1 out handles it and the C5Z. The C4 did not pull close to or way over 1.0g in stock form on the skid pad. And before someone says it I do not consider .90 - .92 as being close. A set of tires will not do it. Plus the light weight of the C5Z made it easier to acheive those numbers. My C4Z does not feel light and nimble like that. Still love my car for what it is and what it was.

[spork2367]

Originally Posted by 8cam

If I were to sell my car right now and I wanted it to really sell (not sit on the market forever), I'd probably price it at 17k and might have to take less. That's just reality. And that's for a sorted, reliable, every day driver ZR-1 that still looks good. Not ideal, but that's what 99% of cars do. Hitting one that jumps in value is rare - I've got one of them, but I've also had 40+ other cars that didn't.

This is pretty much where they are at right now. And I don't see them getting consistently over 25k for the next 5 years. One just sold at Barrett Jackson last weekend for 22k. If that's all they can get when the auction mentality sets in, it means that 17k is a pretty realistic private party price.

Originally Posted by Vette73

Interesting question would be if they do shoot up in value where would they be?

An average price for a good horsepower C3 I would say varies from 20-30K....Lets forget about the L-88 and the tri powers....

Average new price of a C3 way back I think was in the range of 5-6K......

So it's safe to say you can get maybe 3-5 times back your initial investment if you bought it new......

My 91 Z stickered at 65K.........Do I really really think twenty or so years from now my car will follow the same trend? No way....

I think what the previous posts were getting at is the fact that if you are maybe the fourth or fifth owner of the Z your investment should stay where it's at if taken care of, or maybe even go up slightly....

I don't think they'll ever follow even C3 trends as far as pricing goes. The thing about a C3 and previous generations is that you can get damn near every part, if not original, then reproduction. I think most third owners will be hard pressed to see any real return. Fourth owners might be the first to see real appreciation.

Originally Posted by Paul Workman

First: I don't give a ratz azz about resale value; I'll keep it "forever".

Second: the tide of negative perception is formed by exaggeration of some issues, and the fatuous blather of those ignorant (and just plain jealous) "experts", may(?) affect the resale value. But, the truth of its performance and its iconic contribution to (Corvette) and its uniqueness is NOT diminished. (Ask anyone that gets behind the wheel, or has done some simple modifications.)

I don't really hear a ton of negative about the cars. The things I do hear are pretty realistic compared to most other Corvettes. Those things being that lots of mechanics are going to be scared or ill prepared to work on the cars, and that parts can be hard to find and expensive. Both of those things really are true.

And, something else:

I've noticed that several credit agencies no longer will finance an "older" car (cars older than 7 years). There are exceptions, but I have to wonder just how much this affects the size of the market. Not everyone that wants a ZR-1 can plunk down $30 to 50k for what a nice Z might be worth. They might be able to do a second mortgage or home improvement loan (or whatever) as a bridge loan. But, the economy has put a great deal of downward pressure on discretionary spending, for sure!!

There are plenty of places that finance just classic cars so long as you don't have sh*t credit. But in this day and age that applies to any borrowing. Regardless, it hasn't stopped people from investing in 6 figure mopars...

I summarize it this way...

(My) Pros:

• Uniqueness: The only DOHC corvette, complete w/ appropriate body accommodations and other appointments and limited numbers made!
• Performance: No slouch even by today's standards, and with passive modifications can still "elbow its way to a place at the bar" with contemporary cars. "Corners like it is on rails"
• Classic beauty: Subjective (granted), but it gets many unsolicited 'props' from the public; whether at a gas station or char show or supermarket. "Is that new?"
• Support: This forum (and others like it), the ZR-1 Net Registry members, the specialist vendors catering to the "Z", e.g., (and I hesitate to say because I can't mention them all, but...) Jerry's Gaskets, Haibeck Automotive Technology, Corey Henderson, SGC, Dempsey Anderson, Pete Polatsidis, AES, Dominic Sorresso, Bob Gillig, Jim Voter, Robert DeMarco, Brett Henderson, Mark Horner, WVZR-1, Cliff (aka Dynomite)...are a few that come to my humble mind.
• Reliability: "Bulletproof" IF well sorted out and maintained.
• DOHC: It is controversial, even among Corvette enthusiasts. However, its advantages - even among other GM products - are unmistakable and is ever more embraced by more of the automotive industry for its overall performance advantages.

some Cons (I admit) are:

• Local dealerships and independent shops (in general) are NOT a reliable source of repair.
• Parts are pretty much limited to other owners and a few specialists (e.g., Jerry's Gaskets). And, the cost for unique parts can be high.
• Some cars on the market suffer from neglect and lack of proper maintenance. This results in many new owners (especially) inheriting problems from the previous owner(s) for which they my not be equipped or yet skilled to deal with.
• These cars are getting old. Although most of the stuff that is failing is relatively easy to replace, the list can be comprehensive and daunting - especially to new owners.
• The technology is dated, pretty much, especially the diagnostics, suspension, etc. (But, on the other hand, some would say the new cars are unnecessarily appointed with a lot of "gee-wiz" stuff - more appropriate for a Cadillac than a true performance car.)
• Cost for "hot-rodding" performance upgrades: No question... The advantages of current production parts and after market parts of mass-production (motor) makes the same mod daunting to many (most?) would be Corvette buyers.
• Lack of lending institutions(?): May or may not be an issue with some. But, it seems to be a trend among those lenders I'm familiar with. What say U?

So, as I see it, there is a rift between market pricing and the car's true worth in all things not related to price. IMO, they ARE steal !!

I think they are a steal. I'd buy four more if I had the money. I personally hope they don't jump in value But I don't think they will despite my selfish desires. I watched some other 80's and 90's cars that are far more desirable, absolutely flop at Barrett Jackson. A Ferrari Testarossa that had just had the engine out service (10k at least) done this month and an 89 Lamborghini Countach both failed to meet their reserve prices. I don't think either made it out of the 100k range. Maybe this generation of performance cars just isn't what the market wants.

Originally Posted by Ereeves

Not going to comment on the valuation side of things but I can tell you that all the track miles I have in my old C5Z and the few back road miles in my C4Z that the C5Z out handles it bar none. And my newer C6ZR1 out handles it and the C5Z. The C4 did not pull close to or way over 1.0g in stock form on the skid pad. And before someone says it I do not consider .90 - .92 as being close. A set of tires will not do it. Plus the light weight of the C5Z made it easier to acheive those numbers. My C4Z does not feel light and nimble like that. Still love my car for what it is and what it was.

Most independent studies agree with you. I think driving style plays a big part in people's perception of which chassis is better. On paper, it's the C5 by a wide margin. On a track with identical drivers who are familiar with both chassis, I think it's a bit closer than the factory numbers show. With the right modifications (and nothing really over 5k), I think the C4 is right there with the C5.

[Vette73]

What year ZR1 sold for 22,000 at Barrett Jackson? Did they say how many miles? Stick or modded? Color?

I tuned in a little over the weekend and if I saw one more Porshe pass the block I was going to switch to the smithsonian channel...I'm like ee nuff already....

Listen 22K is a lot better than that white 91 selling for 12.5k at Mecum weeks ago ...

Another thing, if the car wasn't originally priced at 60-70 K we would not be having these discussions about value ....

From what I hear some used C7s I think can be had for the high 40s now....

[Fully Vetted]

You need to add in the bidders fee at the auction. Having bought at Mecums before I promise you the bidder was. Also, you're assuming PP sales would be less than the auction because of th auction hype. You can't do that. Especially at BJ because it's a no reserve auction. If that car happens to go thru at a bad time it's going to sell no matter what. You can't then say well that must be what the market is. You've got to figure in known PP sales. I have a buddy who has a classic car dealership and he has sold 2 Z's in the last couple of months. One went for $34k and the other almost $40k. And he has another one on his showroom floor that will probably sell for over $40k based on his other sales. You're putting too much focus on what happens at BJ. While it is a contributing factor the auction can create a deflated price the same as it can an inflated one.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry

[A26B]

Originally Posted by Fully Vetted

You need to add in the bidders fee at the auction. Having bought at Mecums before I promise you the bidder was. Also, you're assuming PP sales would be less than the auction because of th auction hype. You can't do that. Especially at BJ because it's a no reserve auction. If that car happens to go thru at a bad time it's going to sell no matter what. You can't then say well that must be what the market is. You've got to figure in known PP sales. I have a buddy who has a classic car dealership and he has sold 2 Z's in the last couple of months. One went for $34k and the other almost $40k. And he has another one on his showroom floor that will probably sell for over $40k based on his other sales. You're putting too much focus on what happens at BJ. While it is a contributing factor the auction can create a deflated price the same as it can an inflated one.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry

Very accurate assessment & well stated.
I had a friend that sold a 63 SW Fuelie through BJ. He bought BJ prime time slot during TV coverage for big bucks. Auction running behind, missed not only prime time but continued to sell all that was scheduled for that day. By the time his car sold, late at night, most of the bidders had already gone. Didn't get squat for his car. Just another reason to not consider BJ auction hammer price as the gospel for value.

BTW, no refund on cost for prime time paid for but missed.