Member's Only?

[xlr8nflorida]

Originally Posted by Aurora40

Yeah, I don't think Members Only would be a good way to go either. There are lots of great contributors who are not paying members. Hence the basic point of my post. It was in response to someone suggesting (not necessarily seriously) that the forum be members-only.

What do you do about people who don't add value, and just complain about everything? Nothing? Something? Do they negatively impact the general forum?

So who does not add value and who determines if they add value?

[Z Factor]

First a general suggestion/warning.

While it is fine to exchange ideas in a discussion and disagree with each other, it must remain above the belt and not get to the point of personal insults/name calling. Feel free to disagree with the persons view if it differs from your own, but do not attack the person themselves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Originally Posted by Aurora40

I thought this was an interesting point, and one worth discussion apart from the bitch-fest that one person's inquiry about his newsletter turned into.

Hi Bob,

Since your thread is related to posting on the forum, it will be moved to the forum news section.

As to your general inquiry, I do not believe anyone has ever seriously suggested doing such a thing. My view, for what it is worth is articulated in the following post;

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showpost.ph...5&postcount=43

From time to time we will have tempers flare or frustrations boil over as you alluded to regarding the heated discussion about the newsletter.

However with most mature adults, they are able to work it out, and cooler heads prevail in the long run.

[Aurora40]

Originally Posted by Z Factor

Hi Bob,

Since your thread is related to posting on the forum, it will be moved to the forum news section.

As to your general inquiry, I do not believe anyone has ever seriously suggested doing such a thing. My view, for what it is worth is articulated in the following post;

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showpost.ph...5&postcount=43

From time to time we will have tempers flare or frustrations boil over as you alluded to regarding the heated discussion about the newsletter.

However with most mature adults, they are able to work it out, and cooler heads prevail in the long run.

Hey Jim, I'd love to read your view, but it is not accessible to me. I assume it's in the member's only section.

In specific, though, the newsletter thing is not new. Do you feel like the various times it has come up, it has been "worked out" and cooler heads prevailed? To me it seems like it just loses momentum, but will flare right up again as soon as the "critics" find a new opening. For example, the current thread where a member asked about newsletters and his membership status. He got his access taken care of, and possibly his questions answered. Who knows though, the "critics" honed in on it and turned it into a bitch-fest. I don't think the OP even posted past the second page of that 9+ page disaster.

The thread has been moved, so I can't copy some of the choicer quotes, but you think that kind of criticism isn't toxic to the forum and the registry? Basically 9 pages of people, who are not members, making demands of the executive committee? Or vehemently critcising their volunteer efforts? How often can this boil over before the burns don't heal?

I will go out on a limb here and say that I think you recognize some conversations are not healthy for the forum. For example you generally have felt that way about criticism over ***'ing out Corvette Forum links. Do you feel that some of the more venomous posts in the most recent (or any past one, really) newsletter thread are less harmful?

I appreciate your insight and opinion, though. You obviously care about, and have taken effort to ensure that, the forum is the best it can be.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Aurora40

What do you do about people who don't add value, and just complain about everything? Nothing? Something? Do they negatively impact the general forum?

You've got an Ignore list.

[Z Factor]

Originally Posted by Aurora40

Hey Jim, I'd love to read your view, but it is not accessible to me. I assume it's in the member's only section.

Here is the post I linked, republished so that you can read it.

Bold = previous posts;

First of all, I do not believe anyone has ever seriously suggested making the forum a paid club members only forum. I have been a paid member from the beginning as well as having administered the forum from it's infancy, so I know of what I speak.
While we always try to encourage non club members to join, it has never been required. For lack of a better way to put it, having an open forum is one of the best recruitment tools for the club. Sure there will be those who pop in, get an answer or two and then are never heard from again, but that is to be expected. However many people coming here for the first time get exposed to the members of the club and establish relationships/friendships. Once that happens a decent number decide to join more for the people than just a general interest in ZR-1's.
Furthermore the forum also serves as the best feedback to the club from those who have not joined for XYZ reason, or those who have left the club and air their grievances.

While I do not directly get involved in club business because of a self imposed neutrality stance, I can assure you that current and former club board members are aware of the complaints, and much of it is due to the ability to post it here.
Lets face it, no one likes criticism, but to be successful in life people need to accept that critics will always be around, and they should use that criticism as a means to improve their product. So aside from a means to communicate with friends/enthusiasts, the forum serves as a suggestion box for the club as well. To take a suggestion box down to avoid critics would only be a means to cut off ones nose to spite their face.

I do not presume to speak for the current BOD's, but I believe they, despite a few hiccups along the way, want to improve. They obviously have a passion for ZR-1's and the club, otherwise they would not have volunteered their time and effort. Your continued feedback via the forum is the best way for them to gauge how well they are doing, and a means of taking suggestions and improving the club.

So please feel free to make suggestions and constructive criticism as that is part of why the forum exists. Just keep in mind that they are human, and your elected volunteers, so try to keep it pro-active/business-like, and not make it personal. Everyone will be better served as a result.

Here are couple more posts in the thread;

Originally Posted by rhipsher

One of the things I've enjoyed on this site is that there are very few "CF Iron Chef" moments. The site is very laid back and none of the moderators are Life time Ban happy. You can pretty much speak your mind as long as you don't really over due it. It would be unfortunate if things change.

I must say that posts like this are really appreciated since at times it seems as if members do not notice or make mention of it.


I have always strived to allow members to express themselves so long as they do it in a reasonable and respectful manner. I have always instructed the mods to temper their personal feelings and try to find a way to reason with someone who has crossed the line, rather than ban them. Even when we get requests to suspend/ban members for XYZ, we instead try to let the person know what they might have done wrong, and suggest they conduct themselvess in a different manner. Fortunately most everyone here is reasonable and responsive to that approach. No one likes to be treated like a child, or have a forum that acts more like a nanny state. Instead our forum is a place where adults can conduct themselves as such.

I am very proud of the fact we have never permanently banned anyone other than spammers. Even those few who are very difficult to deal with during an emotional situation they were going through were only suspended for short periods of time, and then only after multiple attempts to reason with them have failed. The forum will always continue in that tradition so long as I am the administrator.

Originally Posted by xlr8nflorida

1 newsletter in 2 years is a few hiccups?

I did not mean to imply that there are not legitimate complaints, or to minimize them.
I was simply trying to say that despite the problems articulated in this thread and others, it is not as if the current or former BOD's are not aware of them.

Like I said, I do not get involved in club business or comment on it because I have always viewed the forum as a neutral place for members of both the club and forum to interact without fear of reprisals.
I have never been on the BOD, nor do I intend to, as I am happy to run the forum and try to be as neutral as possible.

To that end, if you feel as if there are problems with the forum (not the club website as that is outside of my purview) lets see if I can help out. Feel free to PM me or post a thread in that section to address it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rather than risk being redundant, I will allow these reprinted posts to answer a few of your inquiries. If you wish to ask other questions or the ones you posed are not adequately covered, feel free to ask anything you like, and I will do my best to be candid with you.

On a personal note I want to thank you for the kind words. It is nice to know that forum members appreciate the work I and the other moderators have done over the years on behalf of the forum.

[xlr8nflorida]

He got his access taken care of, and possibly his questions answered. Who knows though, the "critics" honed in on it and turned it into a bitch-fest. I don't think the OP even posted past the second page of that 9+ page disaster.

Did he now, you say possibly he got it taken care of? I didn't see where he was getting a refund? Nor did I see a post from the VP or President addressing the issue. Which if you read his email, its straight and to the point.

Where is the data on the Membership for 2011 and 2012 and what refunds are needed?

Basically 9 pages of people, who are not members, making demands of the executive committee? Or vehemently critcising their volunteer efforts? How often can this boil over before the burns don't heal?

What you fail to recognize is the posts are from past Members asking them to make good on their word. Guess what Bob, it wouldn't have to be 9 pages if the LEADERSHIP would ever show their face and post in the thread.

Instead the VP & President pretend like they don't see it for a week and just ignore it. Instead you get a post from the Events Manager saying there are some things going on behind the scenes or say it will be discussed at Carlisle etc.

Yeah, great way to run an organization

Take for example over 1.5 years ago, I commented that the homepage can't even be updated on a regular basis, its often 4-12 months outdated.

That is something that can be fixed in 15 minutes. I was told this would be taken care of 1.5 years ago by David. Yet, look at the homepage - always outdated.

So is it really a bitchfest or making people accountable who said they wanted to be in a leadership position.

I don't care if the job is paid or not, you took the position then have some character and integrity and finish the job.

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by Z Factor

snip........
Rather than risk being redundant, I will allow these reprinted posts to answer a few of your inquiries. If you wish to ask other questions or the ones you posed are not adequately covered, feel free to ask anything you like, and I will do my best to be candid with you.
snip........

You know that L98, LT4, LT5 label under the user name on the left of each post? What if this was changed to "Member" or "Non-Member" ?
I think this info should be more visible.

[Z Factor]

Originally Posted by scottfab

You know that L98, LT4, LT5 label under the user name on the left of each post? What if this was changed to "Member" or "Non-Member" ?
I think this info should be more visible.

Ok, I read your suggestion, however do not understand your reason for suggesting it.

What means to an end would doing that provide?

[scottfab]

Originally Posted by Z Factor

Ok, I read your suggestion, however do not understand your reason for suggesting it.

What means to an end would doing that provide?

I stated the reason here it is again.
"I think this info should be more visible."

What I'd do with this information when I see it would be up to me
and presumably others who would like to know where the input is coming from.
Similarly, when comments about our government come from France it's different (to me) that if it comes from a US citizen and tax payer.

(added later)
Also the nomenclature L98, LT4, LT5 is not real useful

[Z Factor]

Originally Posted by scottfab

I stated the reason here it is again.
"I think this info should be more visible."

What I'd do with this information when I see it would be up to me
and presumably others who would like to know where the input is coming from.
Similarly, when comments about our government come from France it's different (to me) that if it comes from a US citizen and tax payer.

(added later)
Also the nomenclature L98, LT4, LT5 is not real useful

That is what I suspected, but did not want to presume.

First I will take the easy one. I grant you that the engine designations are not vital. Still most forums have ways of distinguishing "newbies" from "old timers" and/or active participants from occasional posters/lurkers. So our forums method is a Corvette related way of doing it. Some people view it as a badge of honor, others are, shall we say ambivalent.

As to the general designation of currently paid club members vs. former/non club members, I'm not sure how positive a thing that would be for the overall forums well being.
Would anyone be any less inclined to read and/or respect the view of a former member than a current one? Lets say a respected tuner like Mark or Scott made a technical contribution to the forum, would it carry any less weight than if they were a paid member. Are the positive contributions of non club members any less valuable than those who are current club members? I think we would need to answer those questions for ourselves to see how useful it would be for everyone to know.
Without having thought it through, one concern I would have is that some might start taking an us vs. them mentality.

The forum has always been a place where everyone is welcome to enjoy and learn about ZR-1's whether they are a budding enthusiast, own several, or are former owners who still enjoy coming here and contributing to the forum.
So while it is certainly something to consider, we would not want to do anything to create fractious dissension, or to change the aforementioned open arms tradition on which the forum was founded.