Emissions retest another failure - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

GOLDCYLON · 03-10-2009

Ok fellas WTF is going on

1st Failed test with a bad drivers side factory Cat and DRM chip

Standards are 1.00 for HC
12.00 for CO
2.50 for NOX

Results

HC: 1.51 Fail
CO 8.38 Pass
NOX 2.71 Fail

2nd test with Jeal headers with Magnaflow cats and DRM chip

HC: 2.34 Fail even worse now
CO 8.86 Pass
NOX 2.54 Fail

Is it because of DRMs chip and mods? I still have the factory prom. What does the group think? Help

tomtom72 · 03-10-2009

These metallic substrate cats do not get hot enough, long enough to do the proper job. That is the rub with these low restriction hi-perf cats.

Ron Kreigh, uses alcohol and gets the car to 230* on the water temp and he passes.

I would try the stock PROM, just for the emission test. Get the water temp waaaaay up there so you know the cats are hot. Maybe even do a temp header wrap on the cats to hold the heat in?

I had asked Mr. Haibeck about having the cats coated also to keep the heat in them, but he said that he didn't think that was a good idea. S/S disperses heat too quickly, that's one of the reasons professional chief's do not like to cook with it.

Tom

p.s.: thanks for not being sore at me for posting the corvette recycling thing!

GOLDCYLON · 03-10-2009

What kind of alcohol? Should I unplug the fans to get the water temp up a never see above 60% of band since I replaced the radiator.

tomtom72 · 03-10-2009

I never asked him, but I would figure it would have to be the same as the stuff they put in the gas, ethanol, right? or is it methanol? Chit I can't even remember what's on the friggin gas pump.

Maybe just throw in a big bottle of Techron fuel treatment?

Fans, hummmm that is a problem. My first thought would be to block off some of the air flow using a small piece of cardboard slipped up in front of the A/C condensor...like the over the road truckers use those leather covers on the front of the radiator grill? Turning off the fans plural maybe dicey, maybe unplug the secondary fan might be a way to get the temps up towards the last 1/4" of the gauge where it's supposed to be 230* + ???

Clean plugs w/tight gap 0.35", clean air filter, clean PCV's, stock PROM, and hot water...then try & sniff it to see how close ya get. If no good, I'd try the header wrap on the cats & collectors and some of the piping leaving the cats.

Sorry Daryl, I'm not much help....go ask Jeff, he will know! You do have the A.I.R. system connected, right? Not sure if it makes a difference.

tomtom72 · 03-10-2009

Okay, taking a deep breath and thinking out loud.....the stock PROM's fueling is rich. I get that from Mr. Haibeck's web site, if I understand what I was reading....

His Hi-performance chip pulls fuel out, I thought, but for headers he puts more fuel back in....I think again if I get this stuff which is doubtful.

The bottom line is a ceramic grid cat gets waaaaay hotter than a s/s metallic web type cat. If the cats don't get hot, then they can't do their job. Also, the grid or honeycomb cat presents a longer route for the exhaust gas to take to get out, therefore it gets treated more. The s/s cats let the stuff out too fast, so it's dirty. The reaction relys on the temp of the catalyst, which is a function of how long the exhaust gas stays in the cat. A higher water temp may translate into richer fueling?, to prevent detonation?, the richer fueling may provide enough heat for the cats to work at idle??? I really think that it comes down to how much heat can be kept in the cats, JMHO after all this out loud thinking.

Aurora40 · 03-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomtom72

Okay, taking a deep breath and thinking out loud.....the stock PROM's fueling is rich. I get that from Mr. Haibeck's web site, if I understand what I was reading....

He's talking wide-open throttle though. No matter whos chip you have, closed loop part-throttle on an emissions test should be the same.

I have also wondered about these metallic cats and how well they work. I have to take the VA test soon, hopefully they work well enough, but I have my doubts.

I wonder if swapping bullet ceramic cats in for the test would help enough to be worth it?

GOLDCYLON · 03-10-2009

AIR system is disconnected as I was told its only function was to preheat the cats for about 5 mins before start up which is why we all hear that pump motor noise before startup. Im putting the stock 91 PROM back in which I think might resolve the NOX issue but im not so sure on the HC as its more than 50% worse than the stock cat. Wrapping may be a solution as well as denatured alcohol according to Jeff. I really dont want to hang the old cats backinto the system as the only option you have is used cats. Thanks for the ideas guys keep them coming.

GOLDCYLON · 03-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomtom72

You do have the A.I.R. system connected, right? Not sure if it makes a difference.

No I dont I was told the A.I.R. tubes was only there to preheat the cats upon startup does anybody know different for sure? Jeff Flint states thats the case, are there any other opinions?

I dont remember seeing a smog pump or an air pump on our cars beyond the electric air pump and the air dirverter valve on the drivers side right?

jonszr1 · 03-10-2009

jeff is right they are only for startup and shouldnt effect the test if the car is allready warm

jonszr1 · 03-10-2009

i agree with putting the stk prom in and getting her hot just before you go there . another thing you might consider is doing the seafoam thru the brake booster line . i did this to my white car and couldnt believe the junk that came out of the exhaust. also i have heard that changing the oil just before going helps .wish i had more ideas but where i am at we only have to smog cars when we buy or sell them

03-10-2009	#1
GOLDCYLON Join Date: May 2007 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 9,155	Emissions retest another failure Ok fellas WTF is going on 1st Failed test with a bad drivers side factory Cat and DRM chip Standards are 1.00 for HC 12.00 for CO 2.50 for NOX Results HC: 1.51 Fail CO 8.38 Pass NOX 2.71 Fail 2nd test with Jeal headers with Magnaflow cats and DRM chip HC: 2.34 Fail even worse now CO 8.86 Pass NOX 2.54 Fail Is it because of DRMs chip and mods? I still have the factory prom. What does the group think? Help __________________ GOLDCYLON - 91 ZR-1 #2014 GOLDCYLON - 90 ZR-1 #2794, 4L60e (Formerly Schrade's) GOLDCYLON - 11 CTS-V Arizona State Director 91 WHITE/BLACK #2014. 380 P&P&PCed,Ported Heads, Jeal Long tubes, Corsa Exhaust/FIKSE FM-5s /LED TLs, LED Headlights, Front Wilwood 6 piston narrowlite calipers and rear Wilwood caliper street shop mod,CNCed Coolant Pipes,TPI Cvr,Filter cover,Stainless Bolts, DRM/DOM PROM /ZFDOC mod build #102,DRLs,BMAD with stainless Debris Screen,Coplan Air Blaster, Pioneer APP Radio 4,Brey-Krause HB,Sub Bar,Fire extinguisher seat mount,DRM Coilovers,LEDs everywhere,Compass mirror (orange),V1 DIC hidden display, Homelink sun visor, Carbon Fiber top x3 and APSIS Carbon Fiber interior, APSIS CF Steering Wheel/NAPA Leather, Banski trailing arms, Guldstrand front suspension,urethane bushings from Prothane (total suspension) ZFDoc drive shaft safety loop, raptor shift light (orange),AO engineering louver front plate, Console seat cushion, 96CE seats with black custom Sheepskins, ss billet catch can,Viper remote entry/alarm,Cragar Rear Louvers,LED side louver lights, Dewitts Radiator with SPAL fans and a Woods 160 T-Stat 90 RED/BLACK #2794. 4L60e Automatic Stage V by RPM Transmission, TCI Dedicated TCM, OBX Stainless Headers, Corsa Exhaust, SAN Secondaries and Haibeck PROM, Exotic Muscle Coil overs, LED Interior Lights, LED Tail Lights, LED Headlights, 94 Sport seats with black custom Sheepskins , Cragar rear louvers, GS Front calipers, Banski Trailing arms, APSIS Carbon Fiber steering wheel, Front and Rear Baer Eradispeeds, DRLs, Guldstrand front suspension,urethane bushings from Prothane (total suspension), Dewitt's Raditor with Dual SPAL fans and a Haibeck 170 T-Stat 11 RED/GREY CTS-V

03-10-2009	#2
tomtom72 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL USA Posts: 4,645	Re: Emissions retest another failure These metallic substrate cats do not get hot enough, long enough to do the proper job. That is the rub with these low restriction hi-perf cats. Ron Kreigh, uses alcohol and gets the car to 230* on the water temp and he passes. I would try the stock PROM, just for the emission test. Get the water temp waaaaay up there so you know the cats are hot. Maybe even do a temp header wrap on the cats to hold the heat in? I had asked Mr. Haibeck about having the cats coated also to keep the heat in them, but he said that he didn't think that was a good idea. S/S disperses heat too quickly, that's one of the reasons professional chief's do not like to cook with it. Tom p.s.: thanks for not being sore at me for posting the corvette recycling thing! __________________ 1990 ZR-1, Black/grey, #2233, stock. ZR-1 Net Reg Founding Member #316 & NCM member

03-10-2009	#3
GOLDCYLON Join Date: May 2007 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 9,155	Re: Emissions retest another failure What kind of alcohol? Should I unplug the fans to get the water temp up a never see above 60% of band since I replaced the radiator. __________________ GOLDCYLON - 91 ZR-1 #2014 GOLDCYLON - 90 ZR-1 #2794, 4L60e (Formerly Schrade's) GOLDCYLON - 11 CTS-V Arizona State Director 91 WHITE/BLACK #2014. 380 P&P&PCed,Ported Heads, Jeal Long tubes, Corsa Exhaust/FIKSE FM-5s /LED TLs, LED Headlights, Front Wilwood 6 piston narrowlite calipers and rear Wilwood caliper street shop mod,CNCed Coolant Pipes,TPI Cvr,Filter cover,Stainless Bolts, DRM/DOM PROM /ZFDOC mod build #102,DRLs,BMAD with stainless Debris Screen,Coplan Air Blaster, Pioneer APP Radio 4,Brey-Krause HB,Sub Bar,Fire extinguisher seat mount,DRM Coilovers,LEDs everywhere,Compass mirror (orange),V1 DIC hidden display, Homelink sun visor, Carbon Fiber top x3 and APSIS Carbon Fiber interior, APSIS CF Steering Wheel/NAPA Leather, Banski trailing arms, Guldstrand front suspension,urethane bushings from Prothane (total suspension) ZFDoc drive shaft safety loop, raptor shift light (orange),AO engineering louver front plate, Console seat cushion, 96CE seats with black custom Sheepskins, ss billet catch can,Viper remote entry/alarm,Cragar Rear Louvers,LED side louver lights, Dewitts Radiator with SPAL fans and a Woods 160 T-Stat 90 RED/BLACK #2794. 4L60e Automatic Stage V by RPM Transmission, TCI Dedicated TCM, OBX Stainless Headers, Corsa Exhaust, SAN Secondaries and Haibeck PROM, Exotic Muscle Coil overs, LED Interior Lights, LED Tail Lights, LED Headlights, 94 Sport seats with black custom Sheepskins , Cragar rear louvers, GS Front calipers, Banski Trailing arms, APSIS Carbon Fiber steering wheel, Front and Rear Baer Eradispeeds, DRLs, Guldstrand front suspension,urethane bushings from Prothane (total suspension), Dewitt's Raditor with Dual SPAL fans and a Haibeck 170 T-Stat 11 RED/GREY CTS-V

03-10-2009	#4
tomtom72 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL USA Posts: 4,645	Re: Emissions retest another failure I never asked him, but I would figure it would have to be the same as the stuff they put in the gas, ethanol, right? or is it methanol? Chit I can't even remember what's on the friggin gas pump. Maybe just throw in a big bottle of Techron fuel treatment? Fans, hummmm that is a problem. My first thought would be to block off some of the air flow using a small piece of cardboard slipped up in front of the A/C condensor...like the over the road truckers use those leather covers on the front of the radiator grill? Turning off the fans plural maybe dicey, maybe unplug the secondary fan might be a way to get the temps up towards the last 1/4" of the gauge where it's supposed to be 230* + ??? Clean plugs w/tight gap 0.35", clean air filter, clean PCV's, stock PROM, and hot water...then try & sniff it to see how close ya get. If no good, I'd try the header wrap on the cats & collectors and some of the piping leaving the cats. Sorry Daryl, I'm not much help....go ask Jeff, he will know! You do have the A.I.R. system connected, right? Not sure if it makes a difference. __________________ 1990 ZR-1, Black/grey, #2233, stock. ZR-1 Net Reg Founding Member #316 & NCM member

03-10-2009	#5
tomtom72 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL USA Posts: 4,645	Re: Emissions retest another failure Okay, taking a deep breath and thinking out loud.....the stock PROM's fueling is rich. I get that from Mr. Haibeck's web site, if I understand what I was reading.... His Hi-performance chip pulls fuel out, I thought, but for headers he puts more fuel back in....I think again if I get this stuff which is doubtful. The bottom line is a ceramic grid cat gets waaaaay hotter than a s/s metallic web type cat. If the cats don't get hot, then they can't do their job. Also, the grid or honeycomb cat presents a longer route for the exhaust gas to take to get out, therefore it gets treated more. The s/s cats let the stuff out too fast, so it's dirty. The reaction relys on the temp of the catalyst, which is a function of how long the exhaust gas stays in the cat. A higher water temp may translate into richer fueling?, to prevent detonation?, the richer fueling may provide enough heat for the cats to work at idle??? I really think that it comes down to how much heat can be kept in the cats, JMHO after all this out loud thinking. __________________ 1990 ZR-1, Black/grey, #2233, stock. ZR-1 Net Reg Founding Member #316 & NCM member

03-10-2009	#9
jonszr1 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: lone pine and mammoth lakes Posts: 1,407	Re: Emissions retest another failure jeff is right they are only for startup and shouldnt effect the test if the car is allready warm