New Persepctive (for me) on Dreaded No Start

[ZR1North]

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

[XfireZ51]

Originally Posted by ZR1North

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

[XfireZ51]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

Sorry, but I meant to write that starter rebuild IS a good idea.

[ZR1North]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

What's the point of bypassing the clutch switch if the starter components are worn such that they don't perform when heat soaked? Mods are not a good substitute for maintenance in my view.

[XfireZ51]

Starter rebuild AND clutch bypass both help w no-start. I have both on the Black Rose and no problem in 95d heat days.

[Paul Workman]

Originally Posted by XfireZ51

Starter rebuild AND clutch bypass both help w no-start. I have both on the Black Rose and no problem in 95d heat days.

I agree that from reading these past years the unscientific conclusion is those two items are "thee" issues with starting.

Dom, when you say "starter rebuild", you refer to the armature (w/ new ring) and posts exclusively, or more than that??

P.

[ZR1North]

Originally Posted by Paul Workman

I agree that from reading these past years the unscientific conclusion is those two items are "thee" issues with starting.

Dom, when you say "starter rebuild", you refer to the armature (w/ new ring) and posts exclusively, or more than that??

P.

Good question. I was speaking with our resident expert on this, and he advised that there is a better filed coil available (presumably that would induce greater electomagnetic field to kick in the solanoid). I would look to replace the brushes and bearings as well while it is apart. Not sure if the armature would need replacing - perhaps not.

This solution resonates with me. I neglected to mention in my initial post that when my engine would not crank, I could hear my mod relay kicking in when I had the clutch depressed and the key on; so, the starter circuitry was working and the relay was delivering 12V (or something very close) directly to the starter. It seems to me that the starter was so heat soaked that with its current design, even a "normal voltage" is not enough to crank it once it wears a little.

[ZR1North]

Originally Posted by ZR1North

What's the point of bypassing the clutch switch if the starter components are worn such that they don't perform when heat soaked? Mods are not a good substitute for maintenance in my view.

Sorry x-fire; didn't see your follow-up post before my latest post.

Re the ignition switch wire - my only question would be - why does the no crank only manifest itself when the engine bay is hot? After getting the car home last Monday, I lifed the clam shell to help exhaust the heat. After 10 minutes (and what I thought was a "click" under the plenium), it fired up right away - that after waiting 30 minutes in the parking lot (without the hood open) without success. Evidence seems stacked against premature wear of starter components.

[Paul Workman]

Originally Posted by ZR1North

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

Although there are a couple R&R items, e.g., 90-92 OEM injectors, and maybe even the secondary system (or just delete it!), I don't subscribe to shotgunning a problem i.e., "replacing parts till the problem goes away", IF in fact that was your suggestion (might not be - just my take on it). But, I understand the frustration prompting you post.

Maybe 80-90% of the starter problems appear to be rooted in the internal high-current contacts actuated by the solenoid. And, apparently, the clutch interlock safety switch maybe a problem even more so. Point being, the rest of the parts e.g., the solenoid itself or the starter windings, starter (switch) relay, and even the battery, fall back in the shadows.

So, just IMO, I'd not favor wholesale replacement, in this case. But, I'd be interested to know what exactly IS the problem this time, and go from there.

FWIW,

P.

[tomtom72]

I'm going to jump in here, if I may. with my two cents. I've been chasing this issue on my Z-Brother's 90, Lou from CT. This has been a bane since he bought the car back in 05.

I would like to offer up something that I read waaaay back in 04 over at CF in the C4 section. It was an alternative cause for the dreaded no start after ya did all the usual stuff with no good results. Yea, I can't seem to locate the thread, but I didn't look for more than 10 minutes also! The info I offer up involves the key switch and a wire that in the too close confines of the column interior space has a tendency to break from it's soldered terminus point. Since there is no room for the wire to actually go anywhere it becomes an "intermittent" non-connection in that it is broken off at the solder joint, but doesn't have the room to actually put physical distance between the broken end and the terminus.

I wish I could be more detailed. I should have printed out the thread. I just made a note on the margin of my FSM in the steering column section of the fact that this break does happen. Sorry


Tom

I should say that I was reminded of this wire breaking issue by a shop near Lou that brought this issue up as it seems to plague Camaros and Firebirds from the early 90's & late 80's also. I guess we all use the VATS system and their steering columns are the same or similar to a C4's???? Anyway this was the first thing the mechanic said after the usual suspects were run to ground and found not to be the cause of the no start. Food for thought???