Keith Martin's Corvette Market Magazine - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

xlr8nflorida · 01-22-2010

Is it me or does the guy just like to slam on the ZR-1?

I mean in this edition and others, there just seems to be negative comments about the ZR-1 and he rates it a C.

I'm not talking about that 1 page review he did online that there is some truth too.

This is not meant to be a big thread. I don't care personally what the future holds but if the ZR-1 is a C, I wonder what he classifies as an A.

There is one comment in this months edition that says something to the effect, read it and weep ZR-1 owners - its like WTF?

RICKYRJ1 · 01-22-2010

After he compiles all his info his conclusion is just a good guestimate.

I have made and lost money with the same info, the only difference was timing. I was going to keep my car low mileage & original (4 future value) but I discovered it was more valueable to me to drive it & mod it. I'm leaving it to my kids anyway, let them deal with the fact that all daddy left them was a worthless POS corvette

PS.
Just in case they are worth some $$ in the future,

every part I took off the car was replaced with a duplicate and then modded. I have all my original parts including every nut & bolt. I think I'm a F--N nut & bolt to do this

but Hey!, you never know

xlr8nflorida · 01-23-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICKYRJ1

After he compiles all his info his conclusion is just a good guestimate.

I have made and lost money with the same info, the only difference was timing. I was going to keep my car low mileage & original (4 future value) but I discovered it was more valueable to me to drive it & mod it. I'm leaving it to my kids anyway, let them deal with the fact that all daddy left them was a worthless POS corvette

PS.
Just in case they are worth some $$ in the future,

every part I took off the car was replaced with a duplicate and then modded. I have all my original parts including every nut & bolt. I think I'm a F--N nut & bolt to do this

but Hey!, you never know

Agreed, but when you look at C4's the ZR-1 is going to be one of the ones to have.......... Callaway, Challenge cars, GS etc.

RICKYRJ1 · 01-23-2010

I also personally can't see how the ZR1 wouldn't be the one to have. You have low production & high HP motor, not to mention a fatter azz.

If I were a car collector I would want a ZR1 just to look at that beautiful engine if nothing else.

If I had the coin I would buy a another low mileage 95 and keep it stock. Then I would have the best of both worlds of the Z.

tomtom72 · 01-23-2010

sometimes people just pan what is a departure from what they "perceive" to be an accepted "normal". Kind of like how I feel about FWD cars. I feel they are hard to work on. The packaging yields a situation that I am not familiar with and gives me the idea that most work that used to be simple is now complicated by the new design....therefore, I hate them. I think my perception is a bit unreasonable, but I still cling to it. Lack of knowledge is surly at the root of my perception!

In the case of our cars, I do believe that they are viewed by some to be like some cruel "experiment" that defamed a certain image established over a long history of doing things in a specific way. Our motors are the root of the dislike because they departed from that "normal"....to some in the corvette hobby. To those observers, our cars appear to be complicated for no good reason, yielding no lasting benefits, and are just oddities. Therefore by that reasoning there is nothing of lasting, or useful significance contributed by them to the lineage. Those who hold that opinion are "justified" or supported by the fact that our motors did not start a new direction, rather they could be seen as a dead end. If pressed to explain their position they usually point to the progress made by the LT1 & LT4 and later the LSx motors. Ergo, they have arrived at the logical conclusion that they are not significant, and are not of any enhanced value now or in the future.

Among the non ZR-1 corvette owners I believe that this perception is held by at least 50% of them, the other 50% don't care. It kind of reminds me of the "disputes" between the 327 FI people and the 327 regular people. Or the 350/350 owners and the LT-1 owners....we were out numbered in both cases and therefore wrong headed by shear weight of numbers in our minority belief that our motors were better. The logic was "too much money for too little horses", plus they are harder to work on and the parts are too expensive. I want to be clear, I never had the pleasure of a 327FI. I was an LT-1 owner and I found kinship in the FI camp. I would also add that history has some what vindicated both the 327 FI and LT-1 owners, as wrong headed as they might have been.

I would also offer this observation from my 9 yrs of LT-1 ownership. The owners that thought about the "rarity" value of the car in the middle 70's to early 80's were in the minority. Most of us were driving our cars with not much thought to future value. We knew we had low volume cars, but we were told that was because they cost too much. I also can't speak to the LT-1 ZR1 owners' thoughts as I never meet any....I suspect that they were busy in another place.

I should say that this is just my opinion.....and we all know what that entails!

Tom

QB93Z · 01-23-2010

Tom, I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks.

With regard to value of collectibles, I suspect that cars are not much different from other collectibles. When the potential for future value as a collectible item exists at the time of manufacture, the item probably will not ever reach the expected value.

There are many examples of this. The future value Elvis Plates that were sold as "collectible series" items is essentially zero.

I am not sure how strongly the ZR-1 fits in this category, but I suspect that any cars manufactured since the phenomenon of "high-value collectible cars" started, will not ever reach super-value status. Too many cars exist that have been held in collector condition. This was not the case for the production cars of the past that have the mega-values today.

I have been in the Model A Ford Restoration hobby for 47 years. The first Model A (a 1930) that my dad bought was some farmers daily-driver. It didn't cost very much to buy because the owner was just selling a car he didn't need/want any more. Not too long after that time, Model A selling prices went way up. They had become "collectible" as the generation that remembered them as their "first car" reached a point in life where a car could become a hobby. I have seen that, as that generation passes on, the price of Model A's has dropped.

I guess my point is that if you are holding on to a ZR-1 as an investment, hoping that it will appreciate in value as a collectible car, it may not. And the value will not always keep going up.

I am with Ricky. I plan to enjoy my ZR-1 hobby as often as I can without regard to a hoped-for future value. When I pass the cars on to my son, I can only hope that he will get as much enjoyment out of them as I have.

Bottom line, now is a good time to buy a ZR-1. Whether you are buying for the joy of ownership, or for potential future value, now is the time to buy.

Jim

bdw18_123 · 01-23-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by QB93Z

...

I am with Ricky. I plan to enjoy my ZR-1 hobby as often as I can without regard to a hoped-for future value. When I pass the cars on to my son, I can only hope that he will get as much enjoyment out of them as I have.

Bottom line, now is a good time to buy a ZR-1. Whether you are buying for the joy of ownership, or for potential future value, now is the time to buy.

Jim

I totally agree! Funny thing is, the initial reason I bought my ZR-1 was to fix it & turn it for a profit. But the longer I had it and the more I learned about it and the history of the ZR-1, I started really liking the car more and more. Until finally I decided I really wanted to drive that sucker, so I sold my '93 LT1 and decided I was going to keep the ZR-1 to enjoy.

Whether my ZR-1 is worth $1,000 or $10,000 or $100,000 in the future doesn't really matter. I'm gonna drive the crap out of it and I'll look like this doing that:

bb62 · 01-26-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlr8nflorida

Is it me or does the guy just like to slam on the ZR-1?

I mean in this edition and others, there just seems to be negative comments about the ZR-1 and he rates it a C.

I'm not talking about that 1 page review he did online that there is some truth too.

This is not meant to be a big thread. I don't care personally what the future holds but if the ZR-1 is a C, I wonder what he classifies as an A.

There is one comment in this months edition that says something to the effect, read it and weep ZR-1 owners - its like WTF?

You should consider his ranking of other vehicles as well:

Sure the ZR-1 is ranked a C, but....so is every C3 (except 68/69 convertibles). This means that if you have a 69 435HP Coupe or a 71 LS6, you have a "C". That doesn't make sense either.

For all the C1s, only the 53 and 55 are rated "A". That means the 57 Fuelie, one of the all time classic Corvettes, is rated a 'B".

I think his rating system is simplistic at best. But it doesn't appear to particularly target ZR-1s. It appears to be more age related:

A-Rated: 53,55, All C2 Convertibles, 63/67 Coupe
B-Rated: 54/56/57/58/59/60/61/62, 64/65/66 Coupes, 68/69 Convertibles
C-Rated: All other C3s, ZR-1s (and 93 40th Convertible), Z06s
D-Rated: All Non-ZR-1 C4s, All Non-Z06 C5s

Clearly, in the long run, I don't think we have to worry that our ZR-1s being of similar desirability to your run of the mill 81 Corvette.

01-22-2010	#1
xlr8nflorida Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,096	Keith Martin's Corvette Market Magazine Is it me or does the guy just like to slam on the ZR-1? I mean in this edition and others, there just seems to be negative comments about the ZR-1 and he rates it a C. I'm not talking about that 1 page review he did online that there is some truth too. This is not meant to be a big thread. I don't care personally what the future holds but if the ZR-1 is a C, I wonder what he classifies as an A. There is one comment in this months edition that says something to the effect, read it and weep ZR-1 owners - its like WTF?

01-22-2010	#2
RICKYRJ1 Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Tinton Falls, NJ Posts: 1,177	Re: Keith Martin's Corvette Market Magazine After he compiles all his info his conclusion is just a good guestimate. I have made and lost money with the same info, the only difference was timing. I was going to keep my car low mileage & original (4 future value) but I discovered it was more valueable to me to drive it & mod it. I'm leaving it to my kids anyway, let them deal with the fact that all daddy left them was a worthless POS corvette PS. Just in case they are worth some $$ in the future, every part I took off the car was replaced with a duplicate and then modded. I have all my original parts including every nut & bolt. I think I'm a F--N nut & bolt to do this but Hey!, you never know

01-23-2010	#4
RICKYRJ1 Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Tinton Falls, NJ Posts: 1,177	Re: Keith Martin's Corvette Market Magazine I also personally can't see how the ZR1 wouldn't be the one to have. You have low production & high HP motor, not to mention a fatter azz. If I were a car collector I would want a ZR1 just to look at that beautiful engine if nothing else. If I had the coin I would buy a another low mileage 95 and keep it stock. Then I would have the best of both worlds of the Z.

01-23-2010	#5
tomtom72 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL USA Posts: 4,645	Re: Keith Martin's Corvette Market Magazine sometimes people just pan what is a departure from what they "perceive" to be an accepted "normal". Kind of like how I feel about FWD cars. I feel they are hard to work on. The packaging yields a situation that I am not familiar with and gives me the idea that most work that used to be simple is now complicated by the new design....therefore, I hate them. I think my perception is a bit unreasonable, but I still cling to it. Lack of knowledge is surly at the root of my perception! In the case of our cars, I do believe that they are viewed by some to be like some cruel "experiment" that defamed a certain image established over a long history of doing things in a specific way. Our motors are the root of the dislike because they departed from that "normal"....to some in the corvette hobby. To those observers, our cars appear to be complicated for no good reason, yielding no lasting benefits, and are just oddities. Therefore by that reasoning there is nothing of lasting, or useful significance contributed by them to the lineage. Those who hold that opinion are "justified" or supported by the fact that our motors did not start a new direction, rather they could be seen as a dead end. If pressed to explain their position they usually point to the progress made by the LT1 & LT4 and later the LSx motors. Ergo, they have arrived at the logical conclusion that they are not significant, and are not of any enhanced value now or in the future. Among the non ZR-1 corvette owners I believe that this perception is held by at least 50% of them, the other 50% don't care. It kind of reminds me of the "disputes" between the 327 FI people and the 327 regular people. Or the 350/350 owners and the LT-1 owners....we were out numbered in both cases and therefore wrong headed by shear weight of numbers in our minority belief that our motors were better. The logic was "too much money for too little horses", plus they are harder to work on and the parts are too expensive. I want to be clear, I never had the pleasure of a 327FI. I was an LT-1 owner and I found kinship in the FI camp. I would also add that history has some what vindicated both the 327 FI and LT-1 owners, as wrong headed as they might have been. I would also offer this observation from my 9 yrs of LT-1 ownership. The owners that thought about the "rarity" value of the car in the middle 70's to early 80's were in the minority. Most of us were driving our cars with not much thought to future value. We knew we had low volume cars, but we were told that was because they cost too much. I also can't speak to the LT-1 ZR1 owners' thoughts as I never meet any....I suspect that they were busy in another place. I should say that this is just my opinion.....and we all know what that entails! Tom __________________ 1990 ZR-1, Black/grey, #2233, stock. ZR-1 Net Reg Founding Member #316 & NCM member

01-23-2010	#6
QB93Z Join Date: May 2007 Location: Westminster, Maryland Posts: 3,689	Re: Keith Martin's Corvette Market Magazine Tom, I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks. With regard to value of collectibles, I suspect that cars are not much different from other collectibles. When the potential for future value as a collectible item exists at the time of manufacture, the item probably will not ever reach the expected value. There are many examples of this. The future value Elvis Plates that were sold as "collectible series" items is essentially zero. I am not sure how strongly the ZR-1 fits in this category, but I suspect that any cars manufactured since the phenomenon of "high-value collectible cars" started, will not ever reach super-value status. Too many cars exist that have been held in collector condition. This was not the case for the production cars of the past that have the mega-values today. I have been in the Model A Ford Restoration hobby for 47 years. The first Model A (a 1930) that my dad bought was some farmers daily-driver. It didn't cost very much to buy because the owner was just selling a car he didn't need/want any more. Not too long after that time, Model A selling prices went way up. They had become "collectible" as the generation that remembered them as their "first car" reached a point in life where a car could become a hobby. I have seen that, as that generation passes on, the price of Model A's has dropped. I guess my point is that if you are holding on to a ZR-1 as an investment, hoping that it will appreciate in value as a collectible car, it may not. And the value will not always keep going up. I am with Ricky. I plan to enjoy my ZR-1 hobby as often as I can without regard to a hoped-for future value. When I pass the cars on to my son, I can only hope that he will get as much enjoyment out of them as I have. Bottom line, now is a good time to buy a ZR-1. Whether you are buying for the joy of ownership, or for potential future value, now is the time to buy. Jim