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Old 03-08-2009   #1
Ccmano
 
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Default Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

Attached below is part 2 of Hib's excellent article.
H


In the January OS issue, Part One of Enthusiast's Deep Dive series oil basics and wear characteristics of flat-tappet cams used in Corvette engines. This month, we'll examine the history of the oil-reiated cam wear problem, its causes and possible solutions. Amongst the first to sound the alarm about oil-related failures of flat-tappet cams and lifters was the Crane Cams subsidiary of Crane Technologies Group, Inc. Chase Knight, Crane's Valvetrain Products Manager, said in an interview, "In the late '90s, we started to see evidence of oil-related failures with streetdriven, racing camshafts. Our hardcore racing customers understood break-in procedures and used premium lubricants,so it wasn't as noticeable among that group. "We were fortunate that the wife of a fellow we worked with was employee by a major oil company and provided
us with information that ZDP content was changing, but many people - our customers - did not want to believe it." Sources at Joe Gibbs Racing, a top NASCAR team, told us that, starting in 1999, there were cam failures both on its engine shop's dynamometers and on the race track and reduced-ZDP oil was a contributory cause. Other cam companies noted problems, as Comp Cams' Billy Godbold stated, "In 2000, we started pushing "Cam Break- In" (Comp's assembly/break-in lube), but we saw problems before that with Ford Pintos (2.3L SOHC inline-4). Then, it started to creep up in the '02-'03 period, with significant problems evident by '05 and '06." One knee-jerk reaction was to blame oil companies, but is it all "big oil's" fault? Or is culpability mitigated by automotive manufacturers pressuring them to reduce zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP) for increased catalytic converter life, the aftermarket's technology advances putting more load on cams and lifters, or parts quality problems and user mistakes? Let's review our "phosphorous timeline" from Part One: Mid-'50s to Mid-70s, enough ZDP was in mass-marketed oils to result in about 800 ppm phosphorous, a number proven adequate back then for stock engines and even some with aftermarket cams. Mid-'70s to late-'80s, phos content rose to about 1,000 ppm in response to perceived EP lubricant needs of engines with finger followers. That need was later proved unfounded, as car companies converted to roller lifters and as catalytic converter life became a concern; in the early-90s, phos content moved back towards 800 ppm. Mass-marketed, ILSAC or API S-Service Category engine oils with viscosities 10W30 or less remainedat that phosphorous level until about the time ILSAC GF-4 was announced in January of 2004.
AFTERMARKET CAMS: Racing cams have been available since the late-1940s. Yet, until the late-'90s, there was no widespread valvetrain durability problem with racing cams caused by inadequate EP additives in oil. In the '80s, the aftermarket camshaft industry developed more aggressive profiles. That and more valve spring pressure, combined to increase loads at the lobe/lifter interface. With phosphorous content up from 800 towards 1000 ppm, as long as they followed proper installation and break-in procedures, Corvetters running those cams in street engines filled with mass-marketed oils typically did not experience durability problems, in spite of the increased need of EP lubrication driven by the higher loads. In the '90s, the situation was different. While advancing technology, especially the popularity of higher ratio rocker arms, continued the slow increase in lobe/lifter loads; the phosphorous content in oils reversed its trend, and slowly decreasedback toward 800 ppm. All the while, people disregarding cam manufacturers' break-in procedures continued their foolish ways. Previously, 800 ppm phos wasn't an issue because, in the '70s, no one ran loads at the cam/lifter interface as high as some people did in the mid- 1990s. By 1999-2000, wear-driven failures, especially of racing cams in street engines filled with mass-marketed oil, were mounting. Few forecasted the "perfect storm" which was brewing.

TIPPING POINT: Lousy Lifters and GF- 4: Making high-quality, flat-faced lifters is a difficult, specialized process. The units for OHV engines were less in demand
and economy-of-scale is why, by the '90s, none of the camshaft manufacturers also made flat tappets. Earlier this decade, two events caused the cam/lifter problem to explode. First, two of the four manufacturers of high-quality, flat tappets ceased production. Eaton exited the market and Hy-Lift Johnson went bankrupt. The third, Stanadyne Corporation, did not take up the slack and the fourth, Delphi, was exclusive to CM.
Two suppliers disappearing at the same time and the third maintaining production rate, created a serious shortage. "We get lifters primarily from Stanadyne," Crane's Chase Knight told us. "While Stanadyne had trouble meeting demand, we couldn't get as many as we wanted. "There were times we had to explain to people, 'Sure you can buy a flat-tappet cam, but we're not in a position to sell lifters. You'll have to make an educated choice as to where to obtain lifters.' "We weren't about to sell any of the substandard pieces. That would not have benefitted us at all. As I've stated publicly before, I'd rather sell nothing, than sell junk.'" Other quality-driven cam makers either had a better supply situation or adopted an attitude similar to Crane's. While Hy-Lift Johnson was back in business by '04 and Stanadyne eventually increased
production, in the interim, inferior substitutes from foreign sources - known as "tray", "brown-bag" or "white box" lifters - flooded the market. How did lousy lifters get into unsuspecting Corvette owners' engines? "Off-brand" or "privatelabel" camshafts are a thriving market. Most of their vendors don't manufacture anything, offer low prices and sell by mail, phone or Internet. Some buy cams from one source and lifters from another,
with the choice of sources based on cost. Additionally, some consumers might buy a cam from Crane, but get swap meet lifters from some cheesy guy who "...just got a shipment in from Pakistan." Cheap parts sources, sensing profit like sharks sense blood and knowing their prices and availability would attract vendors of off-brand parts and even some name-brands, filled the void left by Eaton and Hy-Lift Johnson - in spite of their inability, or, in some cases, unwillingness, to make lifters with quality matching products from reputable suppliers. In fairness, some retailers of these cheap parts were unaware of the poor quality, but a few probably were aware. Eitherway, the result was a larger proportion of crummy lifters failed than would have failed as a result of oil alone. The second part of this one-two punch was ILSAC GF-4 and API Service SM
becoming effective in 2005. GF-4 oils having viscosities of 10W30 or less were required to hold phosphorous between 600 and 800 ppm with most at 700-750. Using a GF-4 oil with an aftermarket, flat-tappet racing cam was asking for trouble. If the engine was also fitted with "brown bag" lifters, failure simply occurred sooner.
FOUR RULES: (Rule #1) ILSAC GF- 4/API Service Category SM oils have adequate ZDP for nearly all stock, flattappet Corvette engines including the LT5, which are broken-in and in good condition. The few exceptions are rare late-'60s/early-'70s engines (ZL1, L88, L89, LT1, 427/435hp, 327/375hp and etc) with factory, special high-performance, cams. For them, see Rule 2. (Rule #2) DO NOT use any OVV-20,
5W-20, 5W-30 or 10W30 oil certified to GF-4 in flat-tappet engines fitted with any aftermarket street-high-performance or racing cams, valve springs with higher than stock pressure, higher-ratio rocker arms or factory special performance camshafts. Engines with any of these require oil with enough ZDP to make no less than 1,000 ppm phosphorous and 1,100-1,200 is desirable. (Rule #3) Appropriate viscosity for the majority of Corvette engines is 10W30. A few old-school race engines with large clearances, big-blocks with forged pistons and such, can use 10W40s. More than that is unnecessary and provides no performance or durability advantage. In fact, use of 15W50s or 20W50s increases oil temperature because the oil pump works the oil harder. The only exceptions are engines in very poor condition or some unusual racing configurations, say... a blown-alcohol drag race motor. (Rule #4) When new flat-tappet cams and lifters are installed, proper assembly and break-in procedures are an absolute necessity.

SOLUTIONS: One good solution - an expensive one we'll admit - is to convert your flat-tappet engine to roller lifters, however, we think virtually all who have read this far have decided to stay with a flat-tappet cam and are looking for an oil solution, not a hardware solution. Oil for flat-tappet engines having highlyloaded valvetrains may be certified other than ILSAC GF-4/API SM, however, those other certifications regulate maximum phosphorous, not minimum. There are also excellent oil choices which are not certified at all. Lack of certification may,
in fact, be desirable because it allows reputable makers of premium lubricants to quickly adopt new technology, and no matter what kind of cam is in an engine, blend oils without performance or durability compromises. The challenge is determining what phosphorous content a gi ven engi ne oi I has. Some refiners publicize that information, but many do not. There are hundreds of brands of oil. It wasn't practical to contact all their makers, however, we did obtain phos data on a few products from companies which make contents information readily available. From that, we developed some oil suggestions. The least expensive oils for aftermarket valvetrain parts or a factory racing cam are petroleum-based products for passenger car and light-truck diesel engines. The most practical, because ifs available in quarts, is Shell "Rotella T"
10W30. Its nominal phosphorous contentis 1,100 ppm, and we've seen it streetpriced under three bucks a quart. Another is Chevron's new "Delo 400 LE" 10W30, which also has 1,100 ppm phos. At this writing, the smallest quantity available is a gallon jug. Both are certified API CJ-4 and SM, but the quirky API licensing is such that, when an oil is first certified CJ-4, it's exempted from SM's maximum phos restriction. There have been rumors that a new, lower-phos diesel engine oil standard is soon to come, but the ILSAC Oil Committee's Chair, Robert Olree, told us in an interview that is not true. No follow-on standard to CJ-4 is even being considered by ILSAC at this time. If you prefer petroleumbased oil designed specifically for highperformance, high-rpm gasoline engines, a great choice is Valvoline "VR-1 Racing Oil." There are many products in Ashland Oil's "Valvoline Racing" line, but VR-1 is the only one having detergents necessary for street use. Its phos content is 1,200 ppm. Some Corvette owners want synthetic oil. There are three synthetic base stocks: highly-refined mineral oil (API Croup III), synthesized hydrocarbon or poly-alphaolefin (PAO Croup IV) and polyol-ester (Group V). Because of extensive marketing and the fact that it's been factory-fill on
Corvette since 1992, the best known PAO synthetic is Exxon-Mobil's "Mobil 1". While a wide range of Mobil 1s are available, only one meets (just barely) our requirements for use in flat-tappet engines - "Mobil 1 High-Mileage" 10W30, with 1,000 ppm nominal phosphorous content. Joe Gibbs Racing's solution to cam failures was to develop its own oils for racing flat-tappet cams, use it in their NASCAR Sprint Cup motors, and then later, sell it to the public. Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil markets "Hot Rod Oil 10W30," a blend of Group III and IV base stocks with enough ZDP to make about 1,200 ppm phosphorous. Additionally, this oil is good for collector cars, because it has an anti-corrosive additive package chosen for engines in cars that see periods of storage. Industry rumors are that the Lubrizol Corporation, which developed zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP) back in the 1940s and whose products today are benchmarks in the additive industry, had a key role in the Driven Racing Oil development. JGR neither confirms nor denies that, but if it's
true; Coach Gibbs' oil is a good choice for Corvette flat-tappet engines. Many oil experts believe - and we agree - that, regardless of price, the best engine oils are polyol-ester synthetics. Becauseof its ester base, an outstanding choice for any Vette engine is Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation's "10W30 Engine Oil." It has nominal phosphorous content of 1,200 ppm, so it's ideal for flat-tappet cams. Because esters contain oxygen and hydrocarbons do not, any ester-based lubricant has an inherent affinity for metal. In layperson's terms, ester-based synthetics cling to wear surfaces, offering an extra protection Group III- or IV-based oils may not. When it comes to high-temperature, high-shear conditions in high-performance engines, ester synthetics are the obvious choice if ultimate performance, reliability and durability are desired. On the downside, ester-base stocks are the most expensive, and, expectedly, Red Line products are priced accordingly. However, if you run your Corvette hard, they can be worth the price.
ADDITIVES: Previously, Corvette Enthusiast advocated pour-in additives to raise ZDP content of engine oils. Following research for this series, we've softened our position. If you use the proper oil in the first place, other than for break-in of a new cam and lifters, you don't need an additive. It is possible that some additives marketed to increase ZDP may contain substances that work at cross-purposes to some of the oil's "built-in" additive packages and may actually degrade that oil's performance. Follow our oil suggestions, and except for break-in, you don't need additives. That said, additives are deeply-rooted in automotive culture and some Vettesters insist on "fortifying" mass-marketed engine oil. If that's you, at least pick one with known contents. That way, you can add the correct amount to gain the appropriate phosphorous level. We researched four additives. The first is a General Motors product. The dealer version (PN 88862586) is branded "Cam and Lifter Prelube." The aftermarket version ACDelco sells (PN 88862587) is "E.O.S. Assembly
Lubricant." We spectrographically analyzed a sample and its phosphorous content isabout 4,500 ppm. To raise a GF-4 oil to 1,100-1,200 ppm phosphorous, add 21/2-oz of either product per quart of oil in your
crankcase. Crane Cams' "Superlube" facilitates cam/lifter break-in. Crane says it can also enhance EP lubrication. We analyzed a sample, and it has a whopping 107,000 ppm (just over 10%) phosphorous number.
To increase a GF-4's phos content to 1,100-1,200 ppm, add Vio-oz (3-ml) of Superlube to each quart of oil."Cam Break-In" from Comp Cams, also designed as a break-in supplement, can improve oils with low phos content. We analy/ed it and found: 1) Its active ingredient is molybdenumdithiophosphate ("MolyDTP") rather than ZDP and 2) Its nominal phosphorous content is 8,400 ppm. Add 1 VT.-QT. per quart of oil to bring a
CF-4 to 1,100-1,200 ppm phos. Red Line Oil's new "Engine Oil Break-In Additive" is designed for both break-in and regular use. Unlike the previous three, it has an ester base, so it offers some lubrication benefits of ester-based engine oils. Red Line told us that it has enough ZDP to result in 18,700 ppm phos, so use 2/s-oz. to every quart of oil to bring a GF-4 to 1,100-1,200 ppm phosphorous. Other additives, claiming to improve cam durability, range from proverbial "snake oils" to products of practical use for those insisting on additives. If you choose an additive other than above, pick one for which you can ascertain phosphorous content, and then use enough to raise your oil's nominal phos to 1,100-1,200 ppm. Once you know the additive's phos content, the formula is: desired phosphorous increase in ppm x 28.8 -f additive phos content in ppm = fluid ounces of additive per quart of oil. For example, with Red Line Engine Oil Break-In Additive: 400 x 28.8 / 18,700 = 0.616 ounces per quart, or, rounded up, 2A-oz. This formula assumes densities of .90 g/mi. and 1.0 g/ml for the oil and additive respectively, but will be accurate within 10% for most other cases. Lastly, if you think since the right amount of ZDP is good, then more is better; you're wrong. If durability of 50,000 miles or more is the goal, more than 1,600 ppm over a long period of time is not advised, because of potential chemical wear of the cam lobes and lifter faces.
RACING CAMS AND RACING OIL: In spite of widespread use of roller lifters, are there still radical, flat-tappet racing cams? You bet. NASCAR Sprint Cup mandates flat tappets, and on tracks like Michigan, Pocono and California, over half the race is run above 9,000 rpm. But...they use steelbillet camshafts and diamond-like-carboncoated, tool steel lifters. The valvetrain, alone, in a Cup motor costs $15,000, so maybe that's not a relevant comparison. "We still sell 'radical' flat-tappet camshafts on the normal, cast Proferal (gray iron) cores," Crane Cam's Chase Knight tells us. "Some are due to rules thatspecify no rollers. In other cases, it's due tocost considerations." Since the 1950s, cams have been phosphate coated to improve breakin characteristics, however, modern technology has developed newer surface treatment options which improve durability of flat-tappet racing cams.Comp Cams offers optional nitriding of its flat-tappet products, and we recommend anyone ordering an all-out racing grind from Comp to consider that option. Another choice is Crane Cams' "Mikronite" process. This relatively new technology is a mechanical surface finish enhancement which alters surfaces to improve hardness, smoothness, uniformity and corrosion resistance. Also, Mikronite increases lubricity and reduces friction. If you're buying a serious, flat-tappet racing valvetrain from Crane, have the camshaft Mikronite processed. "Racing" oil is different from "engine" oil in several ways. It has enough ZDP to make at least 1,200 ppm phosphorous. Some racing oils have far more - too much for engines with catalytic converters and enough to cause chemical wear if the cam is subjected to long-term street use. Most racing oils have little or none of the detergents necessary for street use. Most racing oils lack enough anti-corrosive additives for the periods of non-operation typical of classic or collector cars. If your engine is truly a racing engine, then racing oil, along with frequent oil changes, is the obvious choice. However, if you have a racing engine in a street-driven Corvette or a street engine with some racing parts in it, use oils listed under "Solutions." Valvoline Racing Oil has beenaround a long time and a brand for which phosphorous information is easy to obtain. There are two types, "Not Street Legal Racing Oil" and "Not Street Legal Synthetic Racing Oil." There are, in fact, no laws regulating its use. Valvoline brands it that way to deter customers from using its racing oils in road cars, because while they have a modest level of detergents and anticorrosives, they have less than required for the durability most street car users expect. Vavoline Racing Oils have 1,200 ppm nominal phosphorous content. Most flat-tappet racing engines should use the synthetic 10W30. For further information, contact Ashland, Inc. Joe Gibbs' core market is race oils. The best for a flat-tappet engine in a Vette is "XP3", a synthetic 10W30 with about 1,200 ppm phosphorous. There are choices in the Driven Racing Oil line, too. More info? Contact Joe Gibbs Racing. Red Line has ester-based, synthetic race oils for everything from racing motorcycles to Top Fuel Dragsters, most with 2,500 ppm phosphorous. Red Line SAE30 Race Oil (actually a 10W30 due
to ester bases having "natural" multiviscosity properties) is best for most flattappet race engines in Vettes. Ester-based oils are recommended if the engine's sustained engine oil temperature is 275°- 300°F. More info? Contact Red Line Oil.
ASSEMBLY AND BREAK-IN: Take GF-4 oil and brown bag lifters out of the equation and a significant amount of cam/lifter failures blamed on oil were more likely caused by improper installation and break-in. Following the cam manufacturer's assembly/break-in instructions is imperative, and we're going to expand on that. If the cam's assembly lubricant is missing, don't even think about grease, gear lube or other "generic" substitute. Use Red Line Engine Assembly Lube on the cam, lifters and lifter bores in the block. It's a paste-type lubricant containing 2,300 ppm phosphorous in a corrosion inhibiter gel, which literally
sticks to the cam and lifters until oil gets pumped to or splashed on the cam after the engine starts. The phos in the gel makes Red Line's Assembly Lube even better than molybdenumdisufilde-based products cam companies supply. If your valvetrain uses single springs with open pressure greater than 325- pounds, use lower-pressure springs for break-in. If you're using a dual spring, only install the outers for break-in. Use oil and a break-in supplement. It can be any of the additives discussed previously, but we believe Red Line's Break-In Additive is good because: 1) its 18,500 ppm phosphorous concentration lets you use half-a-bottle for break-in and the rest after the first oil change, but still has an extremely high ZDP content and 2) of its ester-base stock. We suggest race engines with "big" flat-tappet cams be broken in on an engine dyno rather than in the car. Mix conventional oil with a supplement or use a dedicated break-in oil for racing engines, such as Joe Gibbs Driven "BR." Prime the oiling system by driving the oil pump with a priming tool chucked into an electric drill until you see oil pressure on the gauge, then keep doing it. Rotate the engine by hand several times during the process. Then, configure your ignition, fuel and cooling systems such that the engine starts instantly and cools properly. At the first two filter changes after cam installation, cut the old filter open and inspect its media for metallic debris. You may find the filter trapped a lot of pre-lube, but if you find more than trace amounts of fine metallic "dust," tear down the engine to inspect the cam and lifters.Use a break-in additive until the second oil change after installation, then switch to your regular engine oil. Lastly, if you missed it the first time: follow the cam company's instructions for assembly and break-in. If you don't, count on a camshaft failure.
BLAME GAME: Who's to blame for this fine mess we're in? The "big oil" bears some responsibility. It could have done better informing the automotive enthusiast community about reduced ZDP, and it could have brought specific solutions to market sooner. The Federal Government is to blame because it started the ball rolling when it began to pressure the car companies to increase cat life. We need engines to last 100,000 miles, not our cats to last 150,000. Aftermarket cam companies contributed to the problem when their technology advances increased loads at the lobe/lifter interface, but the reputable ones did the right thing: advise customers about lessening ZDP content and the need for proper assembly/break-in. Too bad not everyone listened. Some of the press has to take part of the blame for not being far enough out in front of this story to warn people, rather than reporting the aftermath. Those who installed flat-tappet cams, but ignored manufacturer recommendations as to installation, break-in and oil choice, get a substantial part of the blame. Lastly, there are greedy vendors of crummy flat tappets. Blame them, too.

Corvette Enthusiast, appreciates special assistance during research for this series from the following:
Roy Howell, Vice President and Chief Engineer,
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation; Chase
Knight, Valvetrain Products Manager,
Crane Cams; Billy Codbold, Cam Design
Research and Development Engineer,
Comp Cams; Robert M. Olree, Fuels
and Lubricants Manager, General Motors
Powertrain and Chairman, Oil Committee,
International Lubricant Standards and
Approval Committee; Tim Wusz, Director
of Engineering, Rockett Brand Racing Fuels
and former petrochemical engineer, 76
PerformanceProducts; Karen Ktardich, Media
Relations Manager, Society of Automotive
Engineers; Mark DeGroff, Mark DeGroff's
Cylinder Head Service and Machine Shop;
Graham Behan, Chief Engineer, Lingenfelter
Performance Engineering and former LT5
Engine Release Engineer, Lotus Engineering;
Barry Branson, Valvoline Brand Specialist,
Communications and Corporate Affairs
Section, Ashland, Inc.; Lake Speed jr., Joe
Gibbs Driven Racing Oil. •
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Last edited by Ccmano; 03-09-2009 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 03-09-2009   #2
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

What CE issues were these in?
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Old 03-09-2009   #3
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

found them Jan 2009 and March 2009
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Old 03-09-2009   #4
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

Chase Knight from Crane helped me out a fair bit years ago when i used to still deal with them, he's a good man. my main contact in these articles is some of the guys from Joe Gibbs. they spent a lot of time, money & effort figuring things out when oil started going sideways for the racing people. lot's of good info here that's 'Known' in the racing community, but not everywhere else. hope everybody on here reads it. good of Ccmano to post .
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Old 03-09-2009   #5
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

Thank you Hans for taking the time to post this stuff!




My head still hurts with all this techno speak, and now my heart hurts with guilt to boot! I've been using M1 10w-30 full syn since 7400 miles in my Z. I'm beginning to wonder if the car's original owner was correct in using Dino oil for the first 7400 miles? The only clear, to me, statement is that 800 ppm at the minimum is what we need in our motors.

Oh well back to the AMSOIL site for more reading, and then on to the Red Line site for still more reading. I guess I should call my ZR-1 bro in CT and tell him to come over to read all this stuff. Man is he gonna be pi$$ed at me, I told him to use M1 full syn in his "new" Z.....
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Old 03-09-2009   #6
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

Excellent post ... excellent read !!! My head hurts !

But it raises some questions ... I suppose that I'm looking for the bottom line answer, if there is one.

For my 90Z with over 100K miles

1) What oil is recommended?
2) What oil is acceptable? (not as good as recommended but won't damage engine)
3) What oil should be avoided?

I've used only M1 10-30 (previous owner did same). Do I need to start using the high mileage M1? M1 oil is readily available at Wally World & other places, but getting Redline or Amsoil will not be convenient.

Help please !!!!

George
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Old 03-09-2009   #7
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

Hi George,

I think those of us looking for the "bottom line" answer are gonna have to wing it a bit. I'm leaning toward the M1 High Milage camp as maybe a temporary answer.

I just changed the damn oil in the car too!


Tom
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Old 03-09-2009   #8
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

I'm getting ready for my "spring" change, and I'm pretty sure I won't be putting standard M1 back in ... perhaps the high mileage stuff. Otherwise, get Amsoil or Redline. Gotta find a source, tho. Hate to do oil via mail order and the small town I live in probably doesn't have any Amsoil or Redline dealers (at least I don't think so).

George
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Old 03-09-2009   #9
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

Joe Gibbs Driven oil is very good. not much talk on here about it but you guys should be looking for it.
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Old 03-09-2009   #10
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Default Re: Oil/Zinc/Cam Wear Part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyin ryan View Post
Joe Gibbs Driven oil is very good. not much talk on here about it but you guys should be looking for it.
Ryan, Which of the JG oils do you think is best for my 415? XP5 ??
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