Please help save a ZR1
 

Edit: What happened, though my eyes, can be read here:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...3&postcount=82

Entire thread is here:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...58&forum_id=50

This weekend, a beautiful '91 Red/Red met with 4 feet of water submerging almost the entire car. For insurance reasons, I must leave the details of the incident vague. While everyone walked away, it feels of little consolation.

This car has been in the family for almost 10 years. It was loved and babied, and it's current situation is tragic. There is a reasonable chance that insurance will not be paying. According the to sales ads here, the car's value was probably in the low 20's. The cutoff for repairing will probably 2/3 of it's cost to replace it. With that, we'd greatly appreciate any information on the following avenues we may be traveling down:

1. Are there any shops on the east coast that have dealt with a flood damaged Corvette that would be more adept than others in getting it running again.

2. What are the best sources for used parts? Carpet, seats, instrument cluster, stereo, ecm, abs module, and anything else that wouldn't have survived the dunk. Also, any information in parts that are ZR1 specific and others that can be had from 9x year Corvettes would also be helpful.

3. If the cost getting the car road going is too impracticle, what's the best way to sell off anything left that's working? eBay the whole car? Part it out? Are there ZR1 used parts dealers that should be solicited first? If the car isn't going to make it back on the road, we'd at least like to see it help keep others running.

You've probably noted that the drivetrain was not listed as a replacement item. The motor was at idle when the car entered the water. It was speculated that as long as there isn't hydrolock damage, an all encompassing fluids change and electronics may be all it takes to get the motor running again. I'll post more information as we get it from the dealer the car was left with.

This is a very sad time for us. While a car is nothing compared to a human life, we are still upset that such a fine example of a very special car may be gone for good.

Thanks in advance for any and all help to come.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. :cry: I do not have any of the technical expertise that you have asked about, but I'm sure that someone here does and it is only a matter of time before they post with some suggestions.

What year is your car and if you have some pre-incident pics of it, please post when you get a chance.

Good luck!



Jim

http://zr1netregistry.com/uboat/uboat3.jpg

Bummer, the problem is not short term but long term. There is no reason why you can't get it running again. As mention you need to drain and change all fluids and remove the seats and carpeting. In the long term corrosion may cause you some problems.

You need to remove every connector and dry them out. Access the ECM and dry this out as well. Remove the spark plugs and crank by hand to see if any water comes out.

Hello, and welcome to the forum. :handshak:

Sadly you have had a tragedy that hits us all in the gut. When we see a ZR-1 wrecked or damaged in some way, many of us empathize with you.

Are these pictures of your car?




If so, I think we all feel the same. :cry:

Yes, that is the car in question.

I'm the person in the grey shirt holding the blue cup. I started bailing water shortly after. :cry:

We're going to have the dealer drain/inspect the oil and remove the spark plugs to see if the motor hydrolocked.

The dealer has quoted $5K just to asses the whole car. Unless we can find someone who can do this in steps - asses the drivetrain, assess electronics, asses interior, it's starting to look like it will either be sold whole or parted out.

Well you look much calmer in the picture than I would have imagined. I guess by that time a sick feeling was starting to settle in.










I hate to say it, but the whole thing reminds me of the Risky Business movie. The fathers car, the lake, the horrible feeling you must have been feeling as it was pulled out of the water.

As to your questions, I cannot honestly recommend you trying to fix it because the cost would be huge. If your engine was running, you almost certainly have water in it. All the electronics will be shot because of the inevitable corrosion. The interior can be dried out and cleaned, but I think it will still have issues.

However, you can contact Art's Corvette Parts to see what they would do in your shoes. They buy, sell, restore, etc. all types of Corvettes.



There are probably specialty shops that deal with water damage, but I am unfamiliar with any.

I hope you get things resolved as best as possible. Good luck, and let us know what happens along the way. Hopefully you and your father will be in another ZR-1 very soon.

:cheers:

I can pretty honestly say that I was in a total state of shock. When paramedics checked me bp was 140/90 and pulse was 120. I had already taken for granted that I was in one piece, which could have been a different story had I hit sidways and flipped, and all I could think about was depriving my father of something he's loved for so long. All he could think about was how long it seemed before he heard someone say "He's up out of the car".

:(, but I am glad you are ok.

I've never dealt with a wet car, but I dont see what it cant be saved. I would think if you replaced the electronic, ECM etc and pulled all the wiring connectors, clean dry and use dielectric grease on them you should be ok. It will be a lot of time and may be a lot of money, but if it were my car I would get her in the garage and start tearing her down.

I can only imagine. If you did not go to church yet, you might still want to thank God you were not injured. A friends co-worker was driving in a bad storm, went off the road into a lake and drowned just a few weeks ago. She was in her 20's.



Since your dad was there, you can rest assure his biggest concern was for you. While ZR-1's are great cars and we love them, I'm sure he'd give up his house as well to have his son in one piece.

I can't recommend this company, but someone told me they deal with flood damaged cars, so give them a call and pick their brain.

http://www.kimmotor.com/

:cheers:

I hate to come off as an ***, but if you would be so kind as to post the last 4 of the vin?

Hi Guys, do me and everyone a favor and try and keep the pictures size down if you can. It should fit easy in the page. About 1/2 or less the size you see now would be nice. It also makes it easier to view. :thumbsup:


Thanks!

We haven't decided to total it out yet. If getting help here requires giving the number to someone to hold until a description can be given - "parted out", "sold whole", or "repaired/restored", then that's fine. Let me know who maintains the "totalled ZR1 list" and I'll send it to them as long as they don't put it on the list until it can be properly described.

As of now, there won't be any insurance claim regardless of what happens.

The shop had an update at the end of the day.
The pulled the spark plugs, and turned the motor. They said some water came out, but the motor spun smoothly with no clanking sounds indicating no severe damage yet. Tomorrow they're going to drain the gas tank, put in some good fuel, and see if it will turn over.:pray

If it runs and they think the major drivetrain components are all ok, we'll get a list from them of all the electronics that will need to be replaced. They'll let us supply any parts we can get for less the dealer cost:thumbsup:.

They felt the body work on the car was minor and not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. The body damage amounted to the front nose hitting the small berm/ramp, and a bunch of shallow scratches from going under the chain link fence.

Right now, I'm just hoping for a sound drivetrain. With that, the car will have some residual value if it were to be parted out or sold whole to someone willing to take on the project or parts. Ideally, I'd just love to be able to get the car together and running again, even if it will be listed here as a U-boat.

Thanks again for all the kind responses.

I have an unoffical list but if you don't want to share that is fine.

I hope it is not as bad as you originally thought. I can't imagine how you feel. Please keep us posted here. I hope you can save the car.

Jim

Today, the dealer is going to flush all the fluids and see if the motor will start. The ECM is not quite working, so it thinks the clutch pedal isn't pushed in. They're going to jump that and see what happens. This place is billing like $80-100/hr for what they're doing. The guy ballparked $5K to get everything running, but offered the disclaimer that wiring could corrode over time and cause more problems.

I've contacted Conte's in Vineland, NJ where the car was purchased. They're apparently no stranger to pulling cars apart, checking everything, and reassembling. If the drivetrain turns out to be sound, we might bring the car there for hopefully a little more expertise, and a lower labor rate.

Best of luck it getting it all worked out..

Just curious, but have you considered having a non-dealer shop repair it? It would probably be cheaper or the same in cost, and you'd probably get a better job done if you found a Corvette expert to do the work. Just a thought.

Sorry to hear about your car, though. :(

Why no ins claim?
I also emailed you directly since some advice had questionable ethics possibilities.

We've asked several people about other shops, but haven't gotten much in response.

A family member works as an agent for the Ins co which has a policy on the car. They were able to look into the fine print without revealing who wanted to know. Bottom line is that if it was a timed event, no coverage :cry: .

Secondly, if ins. is notified and it's not covered, they would most likely refuse to insure the car anymore citing water damage should be a total loss and a no longer insurable vehicle.

Not everyone should autocross with the Amphicar Club. http://casinosphere.net

What happened, though my eyes, can be read here:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...3&postcount=82

Entire thread is here:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...58&forum_id=50

The fuel tank was drained today. Tomorrow, they'll change all oils and try to get the motor to fire. Also, the carpet and seats were removed to sit in the sun and dry faster.

I hope that you get her running soon.

While many of us go to CF, we just as soon have you post your story here rather than have us go to CF to read your posts. Rather than re-type everything you could cut and paste it over here as well.

:cheers:

Here ya go:
Well, I hoped the day would never come where I'd be the next 'idiot' shared on the internet, but it's better than being dead.

To answer some questions quickly before the story:
- I was in a total state of physical and mental shock while a dozen or so people rushed out to photo the car.
- I've been autocrossing for 9 years, but on slower cars - 90 RX7 & 95 Miata
- The car belongs to my father, his name is indeed George. He's owned it for 10 years.
- The roof was off to allow more helmet space
- I've given the VIN to a member at the ZR1 registry for posting when we have a resolution on the car
- I was not screwing around
- I'm happy to be alive

About me: I'm 35, married, father of 2 (1yr and 3yrs). I have a high regard for human life. I have a high respect for other people and their property. I've autocrossed this car before and have driven it several hundred miles on different outings. Compared to my cars, I was well aware that it has blistering power, excellent grip, and it understeers when pushed, but will oversteer with throttle. It otherwise behaves the same way as any other car would when you upset it's balance, but it has to be moving faster than others to get it there. I could go on more, but that should be enough to impart I had at least a mild handle on what to expect from it.

This was my last timed run of the day. I had no problems before with this element, or even the car all day with the exception of my second run in the morning where I unsettled the rear and slid sideways to the left for quite some distance. I noted what I did to upset the car and made sure not to do it again.

In the morning, I had run several 33.9xx runs, but in the afternoon, when it counted, I was pussyfooting to the tune of 34.9. I asked others if their grip was going away, but none concurred. I was just choking when it counted. Before my last run, I was down to 34.3, but still almost half a second slower than in the morning. I already had 1st place in class clinched. I wanted a lower time, but wasn't out making a "do it or lose it trying" effort - just pushing the car marginally harder to equal what I did in the morning.

After the turn around at the back, there were a series of gates that led to a right hander which pointed you towards the left hander down in the direction of the fence. I'd noted already the car was grippy enough that I could take that turn without fully lifting while going to the right towards the fence, than apply a little more power straight before braking for the left hander. I had done so on 4 or 5 other runs already (13 total in the day) and it seemed good for ~2 tenths. After going around the right hander with some throttle applied, I could feel the wheels start to spin some and the rear moved maybe a few inches to the left side. Not much different then before, up to this point. Previously, I waited for the wheels to settle back in, hit the brakes, pulled the car down, then made the left back up course.

When I got into the brakes hard to pull the car down for the left hander away from the fence, the rear snapped out to the right. I'd guess it was not completely settled and I really aggrevated things with amount of braking I'd applied. At this point, "I had both feet in", but can't recall how firm I was on the brake. I don't know how long I was skidding/sliding sideways, but I was carrying a great deal of speed when it started. Things get a little cloudy as I'm still in a very emotional state of shock. I remember looking at the fence as I was sliding sideways towards it thinking "Holy ****! I might not stop before the fence." Sometime or distance before then, the car straightened out to point directly at the fence. Things got very euphoric as I had realized the blanket of safety I thought I had was gone, I was going to hit the fence. At this point, I still had 2 feet in, but don't recall whether I was on the brakes enough to engage the ABS. There was no thought at this point about trying to turn the wheel, the fence was coming fast, and I thought I was braking at hard as I could. Then I realized as I was almost on top of it, I was going into the water. "I can't believe I'm really going into the water" I thought in panic. Just before I hit the fence, I could hear Jean Kinser-Dana saying "You're looking in the wrong place. You look where you want to go and you'll get there. You look where you don't want to go, you get there instead." At that point the car slipped underneath the fence, hit the 12-18 inch berm, and launched into the water. I watched the nose hit the water, and splash up the windshield.

The car had come to a stop and water began rushing into the cockpit. As I reached down to immediately unbuckle myself (no joke, thank you Fear Factor), water was enveloping the buckle. The amount of time my father waited as he ran out towards the car, until he heard "he's up" must have been an eternity. In a total state of shock, I stood there on top of the driver seat as the car continued to slowly sink. The skiers nearby came over and took anything I could hand them before the car went down. Thank god they weren't running when I entered the water. Someone definately would have been dead or seriously injured. Finally somebody told me I should just get out and walk to shore. The water where I stepped in was somewhere around 4-4.5 feet deep. I walked up, went back under the fence and started looking for my father. When I found him, we embraced and I told him "I can't believe this just happened. I can't believe I just destroyed your car." He was traumatized as well. Enduring watching what happened was just as bad for him.

I don't know how much better a Divisional or National caliber driver would have done with car after I upset it and started the slide. I'd imagine they never would have gotten into the trouble I was in in the first place. I thank God that I went in straight and didn't go out on an angle possibly inducing the car to flip and land upside down. With the soft floor on bottom, I could have been stuck, in an ICU now, or dead. 3 days later, I still can't close my eyes without seeing that fence. I have spoken to other drivers who've been through similar experiences and my state of trauma or shock is normal, but still very difficult. I can't sleep well, don't have an appetite, and can't relax for more than 30 minutes at a time before my pulse jumps and I start sweating, thinking about everything all over again. I'm very lucky as well to have an understanding boss who'll let my productivity slide for a bit.

My father is happy I'm alive and also glad I didn't go in sideways, he's had nightmares since about 'what if it were worse'. The rest of our weekend was very tense. We had the car towed to a local area shop, not thinking because we were both in severe shock. We bought a shop vac, and started getting as much moisture out as possible. 2 hours into working on it, he realized the best place for the car would 50 miles away at home. We called another wrecker and brought the car home at $3/mile. Our plans for the next day were cancelled as we spent all available time before I had to leave on removing moisture and cleaning off/out dirt. While he put on his best face, saying he was just happy to still have me here, I knew he was devastated and our relationship would not be the same for some time. "I'm sorry" just doesn't cut it after dunkinmg a $20K car. To try better emphathise with him, I'd sent the email the following Monday when I was back home starting the research process about what to do with the car:
"I felt so bad this morning, I was nauseous. It brings me to tears
everytime I think about it. I can't stop second guessing myself. I know
I had the clutch in my foot on the brake, but I can't remember if I was
pressing very hard or if the ABS was pulsing. Not knowing whether I did all
I could or just paniced and froze is killing me. I'm looking into making
an appointment with a hypnotist to see if I can recall more details of
what happened. Either way, it won't effect how badly I feel, but I need
to know.

You've had that car for 10 years. And although it was just a 'thing'
compared to my life, I realize from all the stories you've told about it
how much you've enjoyed owning it, driving it, and showing it to other
people. I've greatly enjoyed sharing experiences with you and it. I feel
very helpless in that I don't have the resourced to immediately put that
car back in your garage in it's state from before I arrived. I will do
everything I can to make this right."

With that, things got a little better between us and we waited for the local dealer to look at the car.
Progress on the car can be read about here:
http://www.zr1netregistry.com/forum...hread.php?t=728

For those of you who still think I'm an unskilled idiot who had no business being in the car, I won't argue with you. My only rebuttal would be that I'm taking this whole thing far from lightly. This experience for me has been anything but saying "Oops! Oh well, it's just a car." While others have gotten friendly with that fence and posts before, I'm the first to go under it and into the water. You could call it a case of someone with enough skill to get the car going fast, and not enough to pull it down when he got into trouble. I find no fault in the course design, or the people who put on the event. To accomplish what I did required making a mistake of astronomical odds. Never in a million years would I have guessed after walking the course 3 times, and driving it 12 that my 13th would end the way it did. I sincerely hope that my mistake will not jeopardize any future events at that site.

As I'm still working through this to put everything that happened back together in my head, I would welcome discussing this with anyone who was there. PM me your phone number and times you can be reached, and I will contact you.

...Continued-->
As mentioned, I am seeking hypnotherapy to recall the experience. It is pertinent to me to find out some key details that are hazy, so that should I ever be in a similar situation in the future, I might have better presence of mind to try to do more. While there were 4 black streaks leading a good distance up to the fence, I still am not sure that was our car or someone else from another time.

As for the car. If anyone knows someone or a shop on the east coast, or within 1000 miles of NJ that could replace the electronics and, make an effort to prevent corrosion, and get the car back on the road for less the $70/hr, please email or PM me. We really would like to keep the car, but I'm 1000 miles away with less mechanical than driving skill (I heard much worse already), and my father has little mechanical skills and little spare time. If we can't find someone who can get it back on the road, we'll then look into selling it whole or parting it out. I'm already in touch with South Ga Corvettes as a very interested buyer, but he said if someone is willing to offer more than him, we should do that. If the car goes to parts, we really want to see it help keep other ZR1's running. I feel horrible that I've possibly destroyed such a significant car in Corvette history.

That's about all I have. If anyone has questions, I'll answer them as best I can.

Chris
Follow up entries:
------------------------------------------
I really wasn't ready to recount the whole story yet, but when you get a phone call from someone saying "Hey, I saw some pictures of you on the 'web. Are you ok?. I got them from xxxx who got them from xxxx who got them from ......." While composing the post was very difficult, I felt a little better today. It took a good hour after waking up before my stomach knotted up which is better than waking up that way.

One of the people in the chain sent me the link here, and I read on. There wasn't anything I didn't expect, but a few incorrect accounts of what I was doing (staying on the throttle) were flat out wrong. I lost it big, but not like that. I can't stand misinformation. I don't mind being judged, just as long as all the facts were correct.

As I said before, if someone had a good view of what was going on, and they'd like to discuss with me what they saw, email or PM me with your phone number and good times to call. I will contact you.

Also, there will be no insurance contact for 2 reasons.
1. A friend who works there checked the fine print and any timed event off public roads is not covered. They even said they've denied other claims like that in the past.
2. If the company finds out that the car was submerged, they won't care how well the car is repaired/restored, they'll refuse to insure it anymore. We really want to keep it on the road.
------------------------------------------
Over the past few days, my father and I have worked a lot out. He's still in a bit of shock about what could have been. Things are much better between us. The big unknown left at hand is hoping that the gets car back in his garage. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have news that the motor fired up and not that we'll be taking offers for parting it out.

I spoke with Mike Knapp of Raceway Park today to thank him again for all the help and support after my incident. I was very pleased to hear that my mistake was not going to affect autocrossing at this venue. I would have pained me greatly if my error would have cost hundreds to thousands of others the pleasure of autocrossing there.

Then, there was something I feared, but somewhat expected - my skid marks. Mike mentioned that my skid marks disappeared before the impact with the fence. Apparently a bad budget minded habit and panic don't mix http://forums.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/nono.gif

As best I can assume, when I started sliding sideways, I had the clutch in, but wasn't hard on the brakes at all. This is a habit from autocrossing to prevent the flat spotting of tires by allowing them to roll just a little in a skid. This must also have aided in allowing the car to straighten out. After the car straightened out and pointed directly at the fence, the speed I still had and where I was going caused me to most likely freeze. While my right foot was placed on the brake pedal, I bet I didn't have the presence of mind to get it the rest of the way down and give the ABS a chance to do it's thing. Instead, I let whatever remaining thoughts of dread pass through my head as I headed for the water still carrying plenty of speed and doing nothing more.

Several racers have already told me that second guessing what I could have done accomplishes nothing but tear at your insides, especially when you walked away. But, the thought I might have at least kept it shallow had I been a little quicker has not sat well with me today. My only consolation is that had I tried to do more, and done it wrong, I could have gone through sideways instead and risked flipping with worse consequences.

This thought today has indeed been humbling. While I'm a much better driver than I was before I started in autocross, I still have much to learn.
------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by SCCACORNERWORKER
For some reason this post was deleted, but it had a new observation that my brake lights were not on after straightening the car out.

No brake lights would again reinforce my thought that while I had a foot in the brake pedal, I was in no way using it. If you go back and read my previous post, you'll see I've already admitted that. If you read my first post, you're exactly the type of person I've wanted to speak with to put everything back together in my head.

If you didn't see brake lights, I have no qualm saying my foot must have only been resting on the pedal, but I WAS NOT ON THE GAS.

For the record, as the driver of the car that went into the water:

- Course design was indeed very safe
- There will be NO legal action as the only fault was my own
- NNJ SCCA did an outstanding job with the event
- Raceway Park told me this incident will not affect future events. As an SCCA member (albeit 1000 miles away), this was more important to me than the car.
------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Redmanf1
One thought might be that what happened is that you touched the brake and slipped off onto the accelerator off of it onto the floor board with pressure continued. Just a thought

No, I definately didn't slip off to the throttle. I can vividly remember where my right foot was. The question of how much, if any pressure I was applying had been lingering in my head soon after the incident. I also remember how quiet the car was as I approached the fence. If I were on the throttle at all, I definately would remember hearing the motor/exhaust note.

As I said before, If someone working the course tells me they saw no brake lights, given that I already questioned what I was doing, I don't doubt the possibility that I was only resting in the brake pedal. It would also explain how the car managed to straighten out. If I locked up all 4, I probably would have just kept sliding sideways.

Again:
If you were there, and would like to share your account with me, PM me contact information, and I'll get in touch with you.

Any updates?

Not really.
The apparently didn't get to trying to start the car Friday. They asked in the morning that we bring by the bad ECM that was swapped out the week before. The bad ecm allowed the car to start and idle for 10 seconds, then it would stall. I'm guessing that they'd want to try it they thought the drowned ECM wasn't working at all.

Personally I think you have handled this whole thing very well, and better than some of your critics would have if they were in your shoes.

:cheers:

Thanks.
If anything, it provided a nice transcript to hand to the therapist so he could better plan for fixing whatever I got damaged upstairs.

maybe we can get that SCCA guy who posted on CF to come here

:sign10:

I see the other thread was closed in CF which does not surprise me. I'm not sure why they closed it, but we are much more tolerant over here.

:cheers:

Glad to hear that the registry has more common sense. They (CF) even deleted a post I made about the thread having over 17000 views. I have no idea why.

DMark

Hello and welcome to the forum Mark. We are glad to have you. :handshak:

:cheers:

Hello all,
The car is still in the shop.
Friday they got it to crank several times, but wouldn't run.
After a few attempts, it stopped cranking (possible CCM, I don't remember). They're now tracking down which modules aren't doing their job.
For all the horror stories I've heard about dealerships in general, these guys really seem to know what their doing and leave me with no concerns every time I've spoken with them.

They told me that while the motor was spinning, there we no sounds indicating engine damage. They also got the windows to roll up. They left the car with the windows up in the sun this weekend and reported there wasn't any condensation in the car by Monday morning indicating that everything should be pretty much dried out. The seat inserts and easier to remove carpet pieces, spent last Thurs & Fri in the sun on an asphalt parking lot.

Things with my father and I are good again. Most of the shock is gone and the second guessing about things being better or worse is not a big deal anymore. We're closely working together hoping the car will see the road again, but have accepted that it may not and if it doesn't, life will indeed go on. He was considering a Z06 when he retires in a couple years. In a brief moment of humor I joked that I could probably jump a Z06 at least 10-20 feet farther.

Someone asked me recently how I managed to steer the car between the fence posts, which as skinny as they appeared to be, have stopped/damaged other cars in the past. My response was "Steered?? I went out where ever the car was pointing after it straightened out". Considering the distance between posts, the width of the car, and the random ability to place a car almost completely in between them, it's a small miracle the front end of the car didn't wind up shaped like the letter "U". That's one more realization for me that had I tried to do more, things easily could have been worse on both car and driver.

My first therapy appt is today. Let the healing begin! :thumbsup:

Cars have a funny way of keeping themselvs alive. I think she will see the road again.

The focus on the CCM was changed to the starter.
It's been almost 2 weeks, and the only thing we know is the motor doesn't sound like it has damage when it spins. My father is starting to grow a little impatient. He's going to check with them today to find out what the running bill is so far for what they've done and enquire for a 2nd ballpark of time & money for a prognosis on the motor. If it's going to take too long, he'll probably flatbed it down to Conte's for the initial diagnosis in hope that it will be good and then they can just continue with replacing all the dead electronics.

My sense is it will take awhile, but it will run again. The concern I would have is failure of electronic components down the road, after corrosion may have set in. I can't see how you can possibly get EVERYTHING dried out. Water has a funny way of getting everywhere. Best of luck, though. :cheers:

I'm with you Nick, there are reasons why insurance comapnies total flood damaged cars.

Any update? I'm hoping the weekend was good to you.