The Dreaded No Start
 

Took my son to his roller hockey game today. Came out after the game and its dead as a doornail. No solenoid click - nothing. Wiggled the clutch switch with my fingers - still nothing. Had the wife pick us up, we all went to a movie. Came back to get a tow truck to get me out of my parking space - and it fires right up!

I am guessing a flakey clutch safety switch, or maybe my sweaty hands on the ignition key resistors confused the VATS. So I'm looking for a clutch switch - and supposedly the part number is D2212A or 10045822. I can find photo's of these online - though they are not readily available.

I pulled of the hush panel off to take a look - and now I am quite confused .... the switch I have in there looks nothing like either of the apparently correct switches. I took a photo of what I have (see attached). Can anyone set me straight? Do I have a substitute in already - or are the above part numbers incorrect).

Thanks

Glenn

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

I'd say the first check since it does crank and run now, with-out disturbing anything check to see what in the past 22+ years has been by-passed. Take the car to the "wide-open" spaces and see if the clutch switch has been by-passed. Will it crank in gear with-out the clutch pedal depressed?

Use some contact cleaner on the ignition cylinder. Do you have a second newer key? I don't know that I'd go looking for trouble first. A snapshot like you've supplied isn't like putting "eyes on" the same view.

The "blue wire" indicates that what you've taken snapshots of is brake switch related. Where does the heavier purple wire go? Your part # for the switch is correct, they're getting harder to find.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

That exact same thing happened to me once. I thought it was my clutch switch as well as I had that go out on another Vette years ago.

The problem went a way a few minutes later. I tested it and I am able to start my car in gear without pressing the clutch, so my clutch switch has been by-passed. Never did figure out what that issue was and it did not happen again.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Did you happen to notice if the "Security" light on the left of the tach was flashing? If so it was the VATs. It may not have read the key pellet right.
A 4min wait is needed if the Security light is flashing before try to start again.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Just put in neutral and see if it will start without depressing the start switch.

Tyler

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Follow the yellow and purple wires in the photo.....the white switch is to turn off cruise control when clutch is depressed

http://www.zr1.net/forum/attachment....1&d=1370836899

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Guys, thanks a lot for your inputs.

Lee - your photo's on your post (#13) shows that your 90 has the exact same clutch switch as my car - which is really weird because that switch is not what is shown in the 1990 FSM (page 7C-10 Figure 9 - which shows the D2213A). It looks to me like the 90 had multiple configurations for the clutch switch ? Can anybody shed any light on this?

My car does NOT have the clutch switch bypassed. But I am going to splice into the switch side of the wiring and add a toggle switch in parallel as a "backup".

In my case - I am thinking my problem was more likely a VATS/Key issue - as I do not recall hearing the fuel pump run when I turned the key - just dead silence.

I'm going to clean the key and the ignition cylinder. If I have the problem again, I will 1) look closely for "security" indicator, and 2) check for change on voltmeter when key is turned and I operate clutch - this should help me narrow it down.

It is a real frustration when this happens, didn't drive the car to work today because I had appointments I had to be on time for - hate not being able to rely on it starting.....

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

The car also has a starter relay on it.....

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Lee, I wished you'd posted 10 minutes earlier....

I guess I'm officially a dumb***, I see a switch operated by the clutch pedal and assume its the safety switch - wrong. Yup, there it is on FSM 9B-3, cruise control release switch.

Guess I will just clean the key and the ignition cylinder and be more observant of the presence of "Security" indicator and movement of voltmeter to narrow mine down if (when) it happens again.

Any luck with your's Lee?

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Tyler you of course are correct but some/most will do it as directed and also get a short education of WHY it's there, for the several years I've posted it that way and for the reason I stated only two have commented about it, yourself and a very good friend from the service who is a professional truck driver. My comment isn't/wasn't intended for only the C4 Corvette but anything with the clutch operated safety switch. The quick surge forward or rearward if done "my way" and if it doesn't start is very educational, VERY! Most mowing machines come to mind for PTO safety when I think of clutch safety devices and many PTO's are bypassed also.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

I'd suggest also having a "plan B" should it not be VATs related. Perhaps carry a short single wire jumper wire to go from the POS bat to the famous "purple" wire. This eliminates much and would help isolate.
Look at the next "no start" as an opportunity to isolate and find the root cause.

Here are a few links for more background on "No Start" things:
http://www.zr1netregistry.com/Inform...art-issue.aspx

http://www.zr1netregistry.com/Inform...ont-Crank.aspx

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Some would argue that my patented "Dreaded No Start Cure" is a last ditch problem solver, others would argue that this what should have been done by GM.
Whatever you call it, it has been proven to work.
One relay, some wire and a little time.
Problem solved.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...erRelayMod.jpg

'Crabs

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

I had a similar issue with my '92 ZR-1, three years ago. When the car got hot (Up to temperature) and I parked it, it would not start again, right away. If it sat for a while, long enough to reelly cool down, it would start again. We ended up replacing the starter and all was well.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

No arguments regarding your No Start Relay :thumbsup:
I installed your Relay, Differential Drain plug, Eliminated TB Coolant and Air Induction, and Added Belt Tensioner Billet Aluminum Pulley as standard corrective measures to what GM started on both a 90' and 91' ZR1 ;)

Thanks Crabs :handshak:

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Nice input, Tom :cheers:

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Thanks Brett, I sincerely appreciate it.
Coming from a guy like you with your skills, this is high praise indeed.
I am so not worthy.
You too, Dynomite. You guys are great.
:cheers:
TomC
a.k.a., Crabs

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Obviously, you've never seen me with a schematic. LOL Ask Tyler....

You do great work, tom. :handshak:

Availability of clutch switch
 

Just FYI,

I thought I was having a clutch switch problem also. When I searched at some of the big parts houses, eg gmpartsdirect, their online catalog showed the switch in stock. I can't verify that as I didn't order one.

They may still be available if someone needs one.

Of course, you can find used ones too (eg, corvettenutz, etc)

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

I have recently began having problems with my 91 not starting, altho in my case it seems to be when the engine is cold , it won't start, once the engine is warm, it will start.
Battery tested out OK, I had another battery approx 1 year old I switched into the car, No difference.
When I turn the key, I can hear what I believe is the starter solenoid click with the clutch depressed. If I let the clutch out part way, there is nothing, no clicks from the solenoid. So I believe the clutch switch is working properly.
The security light does not come on while trying to start the car. So the VAT system shouldn't be at fault.
After repeated attempts at hitting the starter, it will engage enough to slightly rock the engine, a couple more cycles of the key and it will generally start normally.
I suspect it may be the contacts in the starter itself are arc'ed, but I thought I would check with the Experts to get your thoughts before diving into that Plenum for my first time.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

In that regard ;)

1. Starter Contacts.
I had a NO START condition on this 90' and after I towed it for a start....got home and it fired right up. I would have liked to hot wire the starter (purple wire) when that happens to see if it is the starter or starter ground circuit. Or check that purple wire for 12 volts when I turn the switch to start. I lean toward ground circuit or sticky starter solenoid. Another indication would be if when you turn the ignition key to start do the lights dim for example indicating a current draw to the starter solenoid/starter.

If the solenoid does not move (no clicking indicating the Starter Solenoid moved) as in my case then a sticky Solenoid or Solenoid Ground Connection. If the Solenoid clicked/moved...then bad Solenoid contacts or bad connection Battery cable (Positive) to starter/battery or bad ground (Negative) engine to battery.

Installed a relay in the start circuit of the 90' identical to what I have on the 91'. This is one of those intermittent issues and does sound like poor electrical connections in either the Starter Negative Connections or Starter Positive Connections.
Starter Relay, Wiring Harness, Battery, and Plugs Tricks

The Starter Solenoid is shown in the left photo with slight burnt contacts in right photo.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/l...1f498e4d50.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/l...9e22f85e0a.jpg

The Solenoid contacts in left photo were wire brushed clean in right photo.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/l...57c17fc6a2.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/l...a552901435.jpg

Complete Starter Disassembly.
Photo provided by mgbrv8 Complete starter rebuild by mgbrv8 (Dave)
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/l...ec8a45ee43.jpg

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

The Starter clicks every time I turn the key, and the lights on the radio, center panel will go out momentarily and the Radio aerial will cycle. So it appears to be drawing power to the starter

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

You need to make sure the battery is not "soft" or that the ground from the battery to the car is not rusted. If these are ok then look to the starter.
One thing to do is measure the voltage right at the battery posts (not the connector but right on the battery) when the key is turned.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Scott; When I connected to the battery posts it was showing 12.5 volts.
Turn the key to the ON position, voltage dropped to 12.1
Turn the key to the START position, voltage drops to 11.8
Solenoid clicked but didn't engage.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Battery seem ok, you're right.
Still a toss up then between clutch switch and starter.
Try depressing the clutch several times when cold and before engaging the starter. Hold the peddle all the way down and still. If that helps then bypass the clutch switch (temporarily) by jumpering around it. I say that because you don't want to have to pull the starter until your sure that's it.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Like others, I chased this problem for some time. I reluctantly installed the relay modification to provide 12V directly to the starter, but it did not solve the problem long term (still intermittent no starts when hot). I just had Marc replace the starter which I believe is the only real solution to the "dreaded no start" (provided the clutch switch and starter enabler relay are functioning).

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

ZR1North; That's kinda my problem except Mine will start when it's hot, won't start when it has been sitting..

Scott; I will try pumping the clutch.

Thanks for your help on this.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

That is a bit odd for the dreaded no-start issue, BF. The starter problem will manifest itself even after the car has been shut down for a while since it is subject to heat soak, but I assume your reference to "sitting" is to do with a very long shut down or overnight situation. If so, I agree that you probably have other or additional issues than just the starter. Others have identified the likely culprits. Good luck!

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Scott; Tried pumping the clutch as you suggested. No luck.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Time to test by a jumper around the clutch swithc but it's looking like starter :(

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Pulled the Plenum, finally got the starter out.
The positive contact inside the starter solenoid is chewed up pretty bad, the contact area has been chewed down from the original thickness of 1/8 inch to around 1/32". Going to try and find a replacement.
The negative post shows some wear, but could still clean it up.

A couple other items found on the way into the starter. It appears the vacuum actuators for the secondaries were install upside down, the arm of the actuator was running at an angle to the bellcranks on both cannisters.

Tested all my fuel injectors, found one bad primary, 6.2 ohms, the rest all came in at 12.3 to 12.6. They were the original injectors, according to the part numbers on them. Ordered new injectors.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Do NOT just change the orientation of the actuators without considerable thought. The "backwards" has been discussed/debated for years and I'd think most would agree "NOW" that you don't mess with what you've got. I've read that actually they could be installed in either direction in production, it wasn't the result of some "nitwit" as some claimed and once installed you need to consider the diaphragm is going to take a "set" so to speak and tampering with it would/could likely lead to failure or problems.

Those actuators have done it "their way" for 22+ years and you want to "retrain" them. Never!

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

I agree with you...sounds like the contacts on the solenoid could be at issue - maybe.** I bought a starter rebuild kit off of ebay for around $35, but the push pin that came with the replacement armature (that pushes the starter gear to engage the ring gear on the flywheel) was about 5 mm shorter than the OEM. Had I used it, only half of the starter gear would be engaged...Not so good. So, I opted to R&R that copper ring with some emery cloth to remove the carbon and pitting. Good as new - still working fine some 4 years later!

Later, I ran across the new contact posts at NAPA for around $6 for the pair. New posts and some emery cloth and you're good to go.


Scottfab pointed out once, and rightfully so, that to prevent arching the contacts in the clutch interlock switch, resulting eventually in the switch failure, always engage the clutch fully before turning the ignition switch i.e., never turn the switch and then press the clutch to the floor or there the switch contacts will arc in the process: also not good.

** If the problem is definitely heat-related, that is indicative of an issue with the stator windings; either in the solenoid itself, or within the starter. "Stops working when it gets hot" is a classic, I mean CLASSIC winding issue; beit motor, ignition coils, injectors...anything with windings.

P.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

I found mine to be backward also. That was in 98. I turned them around and have had no issue with binding after having done so. The risk you run when that angle is not straight is binding. Binding can cause one side to engage well before the other. The result is a less dramatic WOT effect.
It is also my opinion that you'll eventually get leaks in the diaphragm of the actuator if you don't turn them.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

I believe it was documented by maybe Jerry that just the opposite is the case, I don't recall if it was on the @listserve or CF but I believe PW was a "proponent" at one time for reversing them and I notice he made "no mention" a couple hours ago. I don't believe he would have overlooked the opportunity.

Where's Jerry?

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

It definitely flexes the diaphragm when it operates, the sideways pull causes the arm to move across the face of the canister putting quite a bit of stress on the diaphragm.

WZZR-1, Thanks for the heads up, but I think I prefer a straight pull on the actuator. I will PM Jerry and get his thoughts, I see He has the actuators on his site, if necessary I will get a couple new ones thrown in with the injector order.

Paul; I Googled replacement contacts for the starter, it appears Nippon Denso is well known for burning up the contacts, there were lots of Suppliers. Hopefully my local NAPA can get them.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

If you've an electrical shop that does their own rebuilds I'd remove mine and either let them do a quick check or at least buy their parts using all of your own as samples and their knowledge of the 'denso starter that's on nearly everything to make a choice of the proper parts to use for the replacement. There are choices - many. It's a starter motor that they see very often. Most Toyota dealers will have the stuff on the shelf also.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

I'd be interesting in hearing from anyone that thinks binding prevention is enhanced by having the actuators installed in anything but at straight angle.

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Here's a rather recent comment but not the one I recall, mentions the same things though!

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1582935484-post12.html

Re: The Dreaded No Start
 

Jerry's previous post is correct. When this topic was going around a while back I gave a set of NOS heads I have a thurough look over up on the bench. Tried the actuator positioned both ways. Installed straight it would bind the linkage and not fully open the secondaries when vacuum was applaid. Installed the other way with an angle the linkage ran smooth fully opening the secondaries.