Improving Steering Feel?

[Erik]

As well weighted and direct as the C4 steering is, it's never been imbued with an over abundance of feel. And no, this isn't an old car thing. I was driving new C4s and the full Porsche range back to back when they were all new in the late 80s and early 90s, the Porsches always communicated better through the steering.

Anyhow, I was curious to know if anyone was ever able to figure out what it was that filtered the feel out of the Corvette steering wheel. Is there anything that can be done to put it back?

[GOLDCYLON]

Well mine became significantly more responsive after replacing the rag bushing. A lot tighter

http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27450&highlight=rag

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

"Anyhow, I was curious to know if anyone was ever able to figure out what it was that filtered the feel out of the Corvette steering wheel. Is there anything that can be done to put it back?"

Absolutely.
Buy a C-7 or a C-8! :D
:cheers:
Marty

[Erik]

"Anyhow, I was curious to know if anyone was ever able to figure out what it was that filtered the feel out of the Corvette steering wheel. Is there anything that can be done to put it back?"

Absolutely.
Buy a C-7 or a C-8! :D
:cheers:
Marty

Could have bought either. Passed on both.

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

ZR-1's certainly have their strengths, and I love them for them.

They also inherit the C-4 deficiencies, which continue to disappoint.
Climbing over the threshold and plunging into the interior, steering and brakes come first to mind.

The same way my expectations are muted when I drive a 57 Fuelie, I find myself doing the same when driving any C-4.

A Chevrolet Bolt far exceeds in those traits.

Many on this Forum over the years have found creative ways to deal with many of these shortcomings, while many others remain mired in yestertech.

While I too have not succumbed to the allure of the C-7 and C-8, one cannot deny their proficiency when compared to older models.

I still shake when driving a 427/ 435 car with excitement until I notice it is the ancient architecture really causing most of the shake.

I love it none the less, faults and all.

Same with my ZR-1!

:cheers:
Marty

[Erik]

ZR-1's certainly have their strengths, and I love them for them.

They also inherit the C-4 deficiencies, which continue to disappoint.
Climbing over the threshold and plunging into the interior, steering and brakes come first to mind.

The same way my expectations are muted when I drive a 57 Fuelie, I find myself doing the same when driving any C-4.

A Chevrolet Bolt far exceeds in those traits.

Many on this Forum over the years have found creative ways to deal with many of these shortcomings, while many others remain mired in yestertech.

While I too have not succumbed to the allure of the C-7 and C-8, one cannot deny their proficiency when compared to older models.

I still shake when driving a 427/ 435 car with excitement until I notice it is the ancient architecture really causing most of the shake.

I love it none the less, faults and all.

Same with my ZR-1!

:cheers:
Marty

I guess it depends on what you want.

The C8 dropped off of my list for the lack of a manual. I'm not yet that old that I need to drive an automatic. Those days will come, but hopefully not for a long time.

C7? At 6'4, I just couldn't get comfortable in it. A lot of the same issue with the C6 and C5 too. I like doing long drives in my cars, as in coast to coast, and none of them were comfortable enough for me to what to undertake that.

What did I like about the C4 ZR1? It still offered a truly analog driving experience. It was easily the most involving, and it was the one that asked the most of me. If I wanted it to go fast, then I'd be the one making it go fast. If I did something stupid, the computer wouldn't be fighting me. Yes, the last analog Corvette.

Just this spring, I drove a C4 ZR1, and a C5 Le Mans back to back. Yes, the C5 was arguably the better, more refined, car. But my first thought as o drive it was "this thing is so refined, it feels like a Camry".

I'm not against technology. I daily drive a 480 Mustang Bullitt, that is so incredibly fast and capable to be a bit boring. But it's not the experience that I want in my weekend toy.

I also own a C3 L82 4 speed, which is wonderful to look at, and terrible to drive.

So the C4 ZR1 is a sweet spot to me in automotive development. I realize it isn't perfect, and I won't be making drastic changes to it. But, if I can find ways to make the driving experience a bit more enjoyable and involving, like getting a bit more feel into an otherwise good steering system, I'll do it.

[ram_g]

I still shake when driving a 427/ 435 car with excitement until I notice it is the ancient architecture really causing most of the shake.
:cheers:
Marty

:-D :worship:

I'm going to have to remember that line (for use with my Cobra)!!

[WARP TEN]

As well weighted and direct as the C4 steering is, it's never been imbued with an over abundance of feel. And no, this isn't an old car thing. I was driving new C4s and the full Porsche range back to back when they were all new in the late 80s and early 90s, the Porsches always communicated better through the steering.

Anyhow, I was curious to know if anyone was ever able to figure out what it was that filtered the feel out of the Corvette steering wheel. Is there anything that can be done to put it back?

I, too, drove Porsches back then and their steering was definitely lighter. But then, they didn't have 600 pounds of engine in the front....Bob

[Erik]

I, too, drove Porsches back then and their steering was definitely lighter. But then, they didn't have 600 pounds of engine in the front....Bob

The 911s weren?t really any lighter. Manual steering and substantial enough front rubber. But they sure were full of life. Run over a dime and the steering could tell you which side was up. The steering was the best part of a really ornery suspension. They were the definition of slow in, fast out. And, of course, never lift off mid bend.

Overall suspension wise, the best car of the era was the 944 in its many versions. Especially without the handling package, which made them corner faster, but took the fun out of the suspension. Man, was the 944 a sweetheart. Especially, the S.

[XfireZ51]

Erik,

Absolutely agree w ur assessment of the C4 ZR v a C5 Z06. I did that comparison when I initially started looking for something beyond my 84 Z51 Xfire. The C5 was quick, but felt like a skateboard. The interior was cheap looking and Marty, I actually like sitting IN a car, not ON it.
The ZR felt felt so much more substantial. And its still a car u can work on using jackstands or Quickjacks. Not to mention u can still surprise the crap out of newer stuff w a few mods. 500+ hp is still nothing to sneeze at even thirty years later.
I did enjoy driving a 944. Interested in the C8 because its ME, but not until it has a DOHC in it. Would love to try either the Cayman or the Alfa 4C.

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

Erik,

Absolutely agree w ur assessment of the C4 ZR v a C5 Z06. I did that comparison when I initially started looking for something beyond my 84 Z51 Xfire. The C5 was quick, but felt like a skateboard. The interior was cheap looking and Marty, I actually like sitting IN a car, not ON it.
The ZR felt felt so much more substantial. And its still a car u can work on using jackstands or Quickjacks. Not to mention u can still surprise the crap out of newer stuff w a few mods. 500+ hp is still nothing to sneeze at even thirty years later.
I did enjoy driving a 944. Interested in the C8 because its ME, but not until it has a DOHC in it. Would love to try either the Cayman or the Alfa 4C.

Everyone knows my LOVE for the C-4 ZR-1.

While love is usually blind, it does not in this case, let me overlook the cars missing tooth or other imperfections.
C-5 onward build quality and updates are significantly ahead of the C-4 platform.
A C-5 Z06 is one of the most balanced Corvettes ever with a solidity making it feel it cut form an ingot.
Toss-ability that turns grown men into kids, but I no longer own one.

Yet I still own, and will ALWAYS own my Ruby.

My C-6 is a dream to drive. As solid as the C-5, but in a convertible!
NO Cowl shake top up or down.
No it does not rev like an LT-5, but just a joy to drive anyway.

I put a 6 foot 10 yes TEN client into a C-6 ZR-1 and he LOVES it!

Spend a day with a C-7 Z06 with a manual.
It is breathtaking!!
Tight inside and you can land fighter planes on the console, but still a blast to drive.

The C-8?
Best riding Corvette I ever drove. Yes EVER.
I will await a manual transmission, and if GM does not deliver it, I will find someone making a conversion.
I know I am not the only one who wants it with a clutch and shifter just for fun!

It is ok to be in love with more than one car.
Loving one, does not exclude the other.
Talking cars here folks, just cars!

Now back to the missing tooth car.................
and where is the key for that 427.................

:cheers:
Marty

:cheers:

[XfireZ51]

Marty,

If ur reply was directed towards me, I would say I am in agreement w you. Having said that, I am also in agreement w Erik in that I find the C4 ZR more engaging than the subsequent generations. Its more ?old school? and more of a sleeper which is something I like. Less of a ?boulevard? driver and more rough and tumble.
Marc H loves his C6ZR. I would probably like one at some point. Drove my friends
C7 Z and just felt it was massive. I grew up w Spitfires and MGB-GTs. Traded my C3 coupe for a Datsun 240Z. I like smaller and more nimble. One of the most fun cars I ever had was a 1980 Scirocco S. And my 84 Xfire was 3200# wet.
I?ll wait to hear what u think of the C8.

BTW, Taurus SHOs were great road cars. Had 3 of those, all Yamaha V6.

[secondchance]

Having owned C4 ZR1s since 1991, my love of C4 ZR1 cannot be questioned. I spent 22 hours (11 hours to Jacksonville and 11 hours back to DC) in my son's 2019 GS with 7 speed manual. Yes. I missed rifle-bolt shifter in my Z and F16 canopy like panoramic view 360 degrees and solid revving LT5. However, steadiness of longer wheelbase, solid chassis with or without the top, razor precise steering and uncanny suspension with magnetic shocks were impressive.
I am in the line at a local Chevy dealer for 2021 not to replace my 94Z but to augment my 94. :cheers:

[secondchance]

On the subject of improving steering feel, as Goldcylon posted, check and replace the ragjoint or the entire steering shaft. Mine, after 160,000 miles developed a slop. 1/32" at the ragjoint translates to about a 1/4" at the steering wheel. Another area to examine is lower control arm mounting to the frame. My rear attachment point had ground out the rubber bushing and moving around. Replaced with urethane bushing and torqued down the best I can.

[XfireZ51]

If only the GS C8 were to come w a naturally aspirated DOHC, I?d be in line myself. Altho there is some discussion that the Z06 may be NA DOHC.

[Erik]

Not to repeat myself, but...

My daily drive has a modern chassis, modern steering, magnetic dampers/shocks, etc. It's much roomier and more comfortable then a C4. Or a C5, C6, C7 or C8 for that matter. I put 53,000 km onto it in 9 months, before Covid hit. It's a really great office.

However, like most modern cars, it's so competent, it's a bit dull. The 6 speed manual helps, but there's an element of feeling like you are just playing a computer game, rather then driving a mechanical device. Plus, it's so ridiculously fast, that the speed is unusable. It also takes a couple of weeks of driving to get used to the power and acceleration, and a lot of the thrill goes away. But, give me a fully analog car, that makes me work for its performance potential, that is constantly bombarding me with good sensory info, and that will be a fun drive.

[Hib Halverson]

There are some things one could do:
The aformentioned replacement of the flex coupling in the column helps.

Also, replacing the outer tie rods, replacing the upper and lower ball joints and, if necessary, the inner tie rod ends inside the rack.

And then, there is the rack itself.

All those pieces must be in new or "as-new used" condition if steering feel is going to be optimal.

[LGAFF]

https://www.corvettecontrol.com/product-page/1984-1996-c4-corvette-dual-steering-damper

[Erik]

https://www.corvettecontrol.com/product-page/1984-1996-c4-corvette-dual-steering-damper

I want that!!!

[ram_g]

I want that!!!

Seems like it might be going in the opposite direction to what you want though?? (I.e if it is damping out small pulses through the wheel, isn?t it making the steering *less* communicative?)

[Erik]

Seems like it might be going in the opposite direction to what you want though?? (I.e if it is damping out small pulses through the wheel, isn?t it making the steering *less* communicative?)

Maybe.
What I want to feel is what is happening at the treads and the sidewalls. If this smooths out some roughness and bad info, then that's a good thing. From everything I can understand, the C4 is lacking structure. So things are moving and twisting that shouldn't be. All of that will muddy the signal from the tires. Plus, it seems like this thing fixes some poor wheel of control issues, which again should allow more direct info from the tires. So, to me, it seems promising. While it may not be adding back steering feel, it might fix some of the issues that effect what we are getting.

[Marc Haibeck]

Relocating the battery to the rear storage compartment removes about 35 pounds from the front end. The ZR-1 has a 52 - 48% front to rear weight distribution. Relocating the battery will change the bias by 1 point. The revised weight distribution is 51- 49%, the same as a LT1 Corvette. A lightness is noticeable in the steering at low speeds.

An '86 to '87 Z51 steering rack might help. The ZR-1 rack is 2.75 turns lock to lock. The Z51 rack is 2.25 turns lock to lock. The tie rods are about an inch shorter than the ZR-1 rack. Tie rod ends with longer threaded ends are necessary to adapt it. The Z51 rack may be hard to find. Z51 was available from '84 to '89. My experience is with only the '86 - '87 unit.

[conesare2seconds]

I?m pretty sure the 91-95 Z07 and 1996 Z51 racks will fit the ZR-1 fine and as Marc says they are much faster. I?m not sure why GM used the base rack on the Z, maybe to prevent twitchiness at high speeds, but I prefer the faster rack.

[Erik]

Relocating the battery to the rear storage compartment removes about 35 pounds from the front end. The ZR-1 has a 52 - 48% front to rear weight distribution. Relocating the battery will change the bias by 1 point. The revised weight distribution is 51- 49%, the same as a LT1 Corvette. A lightness is noticeable in the steering at low speeds.

An '86 to '87 Z51 steering rack might help. The ZR-1 rack is 2.75 turns lock to lock. The Z51 rack is 2.25 turns lock to lock. The tie rods are about an inch shorter than the ZR-1 rack. Tie rod ends with longer threaded ends are necessary to adapt it. The Z51 rack may be hard to find. Z51 was available from '84 to '89. My experience is with only the '86 - '87 unit.

Marc, do you know a quality steering rack rebuilder? Something like that should be done with more care then the assembly line types. Basically, I'd want someone to blueprint the rack.

Great idea on the battery swap.

[Erik]

I?m pretty sure the 91-95 Z07 and 1996 Z51 racks will fit the ZR-1 fine and as Marc says they are much faster. I?m not sure why GM used the base rack on the Z, maybe to prevent twitchiness at high speeds, but I prefer the faster rack.

Sadly, they got rid of the fast rack after 89.

The ZR1 was always meant to be the high speed GT in the line. Silly fast steering ratios aren't much fun when you are trying to keep your car in the lane at 180 mph. :)

The Z51 was always there as the sharp handling track star.

[Marc Haibeck]

Hi Erik. Several years ago I used Turn One to have a rack rebuilt. The rack still works perfectly. However it came back sort of dirty on the outside.
www.turnonesteering.com

[conesare2seconds]

I?ve had a 95 Z07 and a 96 LT4 w Z51 and can say for sure the fast rack didn?t go away altogether after 89, fortunately. When I was doing a lot of autocross I scrounged up a Z51 rack for a third car that hadn?t come with it because my hands were so much busier than they?d been in my other cars. But I appreciate the benefit can go the opposite direction on a road course or at speed.

[Erik]

Hi Erik. Several years ago I used Turn One to have a rack rebuilt. The rack still works perfectly. However it came back sort of dirty on the outside.
www.turnonesteering.com

That would be disappointing. Doesn't effect what they did on the inside, but it does raise questions.

[secondchance]

I too had my steering rack rebuilt by Turnone. Very nice folks and above all knew what they were talking about. I believe they offer power steering pump that reduces parasitic loss for C4 Corvettes also for racing application.
At the time I had an option of choosing any steering ratio but opted to stay with factory ratio. I had a 84 Z51 and the steering ratio was so fast that every time I sneezed on the highway, I was changing lanes.

[jss06c6]

Everyone knows my LOVE for the C-4 ZR-1.

While love is usually blind, it does not in this case, let me overlook the cars missing tooth or other imperfections.
C-5 onward build quality and updates are significantly ahead of the C-4 platform.
A C-5 Z06 is one of the most balanced Corvettes ever with a solidity making it feel it cut form an ingot.
Toss-ability that turns grown men into kids, but I no longer own one.

Yet I still own, and will ALWAYS own my Ruby.

My C-6 is a dream to drive. As solid as the C-5, but in a convertible!
NO Cowl shake top up or down.
No it does not rev like an LT-5, but just a joy to drive anyway.

I put a 6 foot 10 yes TEN client into a C-6 ZR-1 and he LOVES it!

Spend a day with a C-7 Z06 with a manual.
It is breathtaking!!
Tight inside and you can land fighter planes on the console, but still a blast to drive.

The C-8?
Best riding Corvette I ever drove. Yes EVER.
I will await a manual transmission, and if GM does not deliver it, I will find someone making a conversion.
I know I am not the only one who wants it with a clutch and shifter just for fun!

It is ok to be in love with more than one car.
Loving one, does not exclude the other.
Talking cars here folks, just cars!

Now back to the missing tooth car.................
and where is the key for that 427.................

:cheers:
Marty

:cheers:I think I know that 6' 10" ZR1 guy Marty! He absolutely loves that car, even more now that it's pushing 800 crank HP!

Hope you are well!

Steve

Sent from my SM-G950U using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[Prez1967]

Hi Erik. Several years ago I used Turn One to have a rack rebuilt. The rack still works perfectly. However it came back sort of dirty on the outside.
www.turnonesteering.com

I have emailed Turn One a number of times inquiring about their tuning abilities.


"for a higher steering effort that is consistent, we would have to make changes to the valve in the rack. The cost to do this would be $1,000 including the rebuild. You would have to dictate how much effort you would like.

For a performance oriented vehicle I would recommend upgrading the power steering pump as well. We can rebuild and upgrade your factory pump to reduce horsepower consumption, reduce fluid temperature and have a higher pressure capacity to handle the higher wheel loads that track use produces. The cost to rebuild and upgrade your pump would start at $200, if any hard parts need to be replaced then the cost would go up accordingly."

When there is a will, there is a way :cheers:

[Erik]

I have emailed Turn One a number of times inquiring about their tuning abilities.


"for a higher steering effort that is consistent, we would have to make changes to the valve in the rack. The cost to do this would be $1,000 including the rebuild. You would have to dictate how much effort you would like.

For a performance oriented vehicle I would recommend upgrading the power steering pump as well. We can rebuild and upgrade your factory pump to reduce horsepower consumption, reduce fluid temperature and have a higher pressure capacity to handle the higher wheel loads that track use produces. The cost to rebuild and upgrade your pump would start at $200, if any hard parts need to be replaced then the cost would go up accordingly."

When there is a will, there is a way :cheers:

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that. They do seem a knowledgeable company. True expertise is so hard to find.

[Erik]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but something like the R-D Racing Camber Brace should help the feel too.

[tf95ZR1]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but something like the R-D Racing Camber Brace should help the feel too.

Yes, but it makes working on the front of the engine, or adjusting
the front end alignment a real PITA!

[Erik]

Yes, but it makes working on the front of the engine, or adjusting
the front end alignment a real PITA!

Can't have everything. :)