Engine Cut out after 3-5 seconds - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

dondon · 03-09-2015

Hi

I've had my ZR1 parked for a bit (3-4 months)... decided today was a great day to make sure all it well. The short version of this ends with a tow and waiting on the road for 2.5 hours, here is the long version.

I took the car out, was properly warming it up. About 4 miles from my house is where things started getting dodgy (about the distance to warm engine, although it may be a coincidence). I was coming onto an on ramp and attempted to accelerate... the car seemed to slow and the Prius (yes, Prius) behind me started getting agitated with my speed. The car would not accelerate, and started to bog... about 20 seconds later, it cleared and the car ran normal again, while I was trying to nurse it home. About 2 miles from my house, the car bogged again, but this time I was doing maybe 35, and it resulted in a power loss and I basically pulled into a side street. From that point, I could start the car, let it idle for about 3-5 seconds before the rpm drops heavily, and lingers at an estimated 200 RPM, before the car shuts off. There is not enough power to actually drive the car during the 3-5 seconds... for the sake of moving it to a better location or other.

What I've done: checked
ECM - No Codes
CCM - code 12 - which is normal

I do own a Tech 1, but haven't dug through much deeper than the codes yet. My suspicion is a fuel filter (18 months old) or a fuel pump (both of the pumps are about 18 months old, if that much - the $23 model we see float around this forum). It feels to me as if it runs out of gas, but I don't know. I haven't had a chance to test fuel rail pressure yet, I may only be able to do that Wednesday or so. I did do a secondary fuel pump test with the Tech1 - it showed 0 volts, which is not what I was expecting, thought the number would rise.

My car (1990 with 6400 miles +-) is a mildly odd duck, it hasn't seen ethanol fuel and has original injectors... even today it runs on 93 ethanol free fuel. Any troubleshooting tips, I'd love to have everything resolved within the week... but you never know.

Dynomite · 03-09-2015

Open gas cap.
Disconnect the fuel lines on passenger side (Three Torx 40).
I think left line (rear) is fuel pressure but put both lines in bucket.
Turn key on and see if you have fuel flow.
Check fuel for signs of water.
Water would sit in bottom of tank.
Or your fuel filter is plugged up from sludge in bottom of tank.
Reconnect Fuel lines and check fuel rail pressure with key on.
It sounds like fuel pumps definitely were working to start with for the first few miles.
If you have some fuel flow but just dribbling.....it be fuel filter. Fuel filter is on passenger side. Sounds like the Z ran just long enough to get some contaminants pumped into the filter.

Or...I do not know. Was the Z sitting outside?
Replace Gas Cap....that was just to make sure you did not have vapor pressure in gas tank self pumping fuel when you removed fuel lines.

If not gas or filter....then fuel pumps or other electrical......

This Z has spent a great deal of time sitting with only 6,400 miles.
You can get water mixed with fuel at the gas station.

The guys will definitely jump on this for you shortly......Maybe in the morning....it is late

Oh....say....you did not have raw gas dripping out of the Plenum did you? I came across a fuel pressure regulator failure this last week and replaced the Fuel Rail. Replacement Fuel Pressure Regulators are available. You can remove the vacuum line between Plenum and Fuel Pressure Regulator (located just in front of Map Sensor at rear of Plenum). Turn key on and see if any fuel comes out of the Fuel Pressure Regulator (you would have definitely detected raw gas if the engine was flooded with fuel).

dondon · 03-09-2015

Thanks for the quick feedback. I haven't had a chance to do any troubleshooting, however I did start the car, and it was idling for about a minute before I turned it back off (manually). I'll have to find some time this weekend to try the tips you have given, thank you so much for them.

Z sleeps in a garage under a car cover. It has actually been under 2 covers for the past few months.

Also no gas out of the plenum that I could see.

Thanks again

Paul Workman · 03-10-2015

I'm leaning toward fuel issue myself; as I guess most are too. Otherwise, there'd be a flood of suggestions to augment what Cliff has said.

For instance... This was the crud that came out of my filter after only 40k miles.

I verified I had a delivery problem, even after replacing a pump that went bad by taking it for a drive w/ the fuel pressure gauge taped to the windshield...

But, we can get into that - one step at a time, I recon.

Jagdpanzer · 03-10-2015

Similar thing happen to my 94 when I first got it. Turned out the primary fuel pump was seized up and only the secondary fuel was working which the ECM shuts off when then engine coolant temp reaches 176 degrees. Replaced the primary pump and it has run fine ever since. Also keep in mind when the engine is up to temp during restart the ECM runs both pumps until the engine reaches firing speed of around 400 rpm. Then the secondary pump is cut off. When driving the ECM turns the secondary on based on power key full power position and driving demand.

XfireZ51 · 03-10-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagdpanzer

Similar thing happen to my 94 when I first got it. Turned out the primary fuel pump was seized up and only the secondary fuel was working which the ECM shuts off when then engine coolant temp reaches 176 degrees. Replaced the primary pump and it has run fine ever since. Also keep in mind when the engine is up to temp during restart the ECM runs both pumps until the engine reaches firing speed of around 400 rpm. Then the secondary pump is cut off. When driving the ECM turns the secondary on based on power key full power position and driving demand.

Good points Phil.

dondon · 03-10-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagdpanzer

Similar thing happen to my 94 when I first got it. Turned out the primary fuel pump was seized up and only the secondary fuel was working which the ECM shuts off when then engine coolant temp reaches 176 degrees. Replaced the primary pump and it has run fine ever since. Also keep in mind when the engine is up to temp during restart the ECM runs both pumps until the engine reaches firing speed of around 400 rpm. Then the secondary pump is cut off. When driving the ECM turns the secondary on based on power key full power position and driving demand.

I think you are onto something. Just did a test, at 180 degrees F Coolant temperature, same problem came up. However this time I was in the safety of my garage - Happy days. I'm going to source some pumps, my others are quite new, which is irritating, but it is what it is.

Any pump recommendations? I have the PF240's in there, I'll likely just replace both again, since its almost the same amount of effort.

batchman · 03-11-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by dondon

I'll likely just replace both again, since its almost the same amount of effort.

Except this time, you'll have a spare left over.

Good luck,
- Jeff

dondon · 03-11-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by batchman

Except this time, you'll have a spare left over.

Good luck,
- Jeff

So AC Delco then? Any thoughts on what will have best reliability?

dondon · 03-13-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by dondon

So AC Delco then? Any thoughts on what will have best reliability?

So I thought I'd let the other members of this forum know that I am extremely stupid. By a series of coincidences, the above was diagnosed.

This is how my day started, I was very excited to have received my AC Delco EP381. Found a gap of time, and pulled the fuel pumps out. I noticed they were pretty dry for having a full tank... Shone a light in took a peek, and was very disappointed in myself. The only thing that make me feel not as bad is that the fuel gauge showed full... but still.

Anyhow, I put the new pumps in (just because)... pretty sure the old ones a said bad words about are fine, so if anyone is wondering, the P240KC pumps for 20 bucks most likely still work. I'll be testing the old pumps soon.

Car runs great after locating my ethanol free gas station.

All the best wishes from stupid over here.

03-09-2015	#1
dondon Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Saint Petersburg, FL Posts: 32	Engine Cut out after 3-5 seconds Hi I've had my ZR1 parked for a bit (3-4 months)... decided today was a great day to make sure all it well. The short version of this ends with a tow and waiting on the road for 2.5 hours, here is the long version. I took the car out, was properly warming it up. About 4 miles from my house is where things started getting dodgy (about the distance to warm engine, although it may be a coincidence). I was coming onto an on ramp and attempted to accelerate... the car seemed to slow and the Prius (yes, Prius) behind me started getting agitated with my speed. The car would not accelerate, and started to bog... about 20 seconds later, it cleared and the car ran normal again, while I was trying to nurse it home. About 2 miles from my house, the car bogged again, but this time I was doing maybe 35, and it resulted in a power loss and I basically pulled into a side street. From that point, I could start the car, let it idle for about 3-5 seconds before the rpm drops heavily, and lingers at an estimated 200 RPM, before the car shuts off. There is not enough power to actually drive the car during the 3-5 seconds... for the sake of moving it to a better location or other. What I've done: checked ECM - No Codes CCM - code 12 - which is normal I do own a Tech 1, but haven't dug through much deeper than the codes yet. My suspicion is a fuel filter (18 months old) or a fuel pump (both of the pumps are about 18 months old, if that much - the $23 model we see float around this forum). It feels to me as if it runs out of gas, but I don't know. I haven't had a chance to test fuel rail pressure yet, I may only be able to do that Wednesday or so. I did do a secondary fuel pump test with the Tech1 - it showed 0 volts, which is not what I was expecting, thought the number would rise. My car (1990 with 6400 miles +-) is a mildly odd duck, it hasn't seen ethanol fuel and has original injectors... even today it runs on 93 ethanol free fuel. Any troubleshooting tips, I'd love to have everything resolved within the week... but you never know.

03-09-2015	#2
Dynomite Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: South Dakota/California Posts: 3,788	Re: Engine Cut out after 3-5 seconds Open gas cap. Disconnect the fuel lines on passenger side (Three Torx 40). I think left line (rear) is fuel pressure but put both lines in bucket. Turn key on and see if you have fuel flow. Check fuel for signs of water. Water would sit in bottom of tank. Or your fuel filter is plugged up from sludge in bottom of tank. Reconnect Fuel lines and check fuel rail pressure with key on. It sounds like fuel pumps definitely were working to start with for the first few miles. If you have some fuel flow but just dribbling.....it be fuel filter. Fuel filter is on passenger side. Sounds like the Z ran just long enough to get some contaminants pumped into the filter. Or...I do not know. Was the Z sitting outside? Replace Gas Cap....that was just to make sure you did not have vapor pressure in gas tank self pumping fuel when you removed fuel lines. If not gas or filter....then fuel pumps or other electrical...... This Z has spent a great deal of time sitting with only 6,400 miles. You can get water mixed with fuel at the gas station. The guys will definitely jump on this for you shortly......Maybe in the morning....it is late Oh....say....you did not have raw gas dripping out of the Plenum did you? I came across a fuel pressure regulator failure this last week and replaced the Fuel Rail. Replacement Fuel Pressure Regulators are available. You can remove the vacuum line between Plenum and Fuel Pressure Regulator (located just in front of Map Sensor at rear of Plenum). Turn key on and see if any fuel comes out of the Fuel Pressure Regulator (you would have definitely detected raw gas if the engine was flooded with fuel). __________________ Left Clickable links -Solutions- LT5 Modifications/Rebuild Tricks Low Mileage ZR-1 Restoration 1990 Corvette (L98) Modifications LT5 Eliminated Systems LT5 Added Systems LT5/ZR-1 Fluids 1995 LT5 SPECIFIC TOP END REBUILD TRICKS Last edited by Dynomite; 03-09-2015 at 01:02 PM.

03-09-2015	#3
dondon Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Saint Petersburg, FL Posts: 32	Re: Engine Cut out after 3-5 seconds Thanks for the quick feedback. I haven't had a chance to do any troubleshooting, however I did start the car, and it was idling for about a minute before I turned it back off (manually). I'll have to find some time this weekend to try the tips you have given, thank you so much for them. Z sleeps in a garage under a car cover. It has actually been under 2 covers for the past few months. Also no gas out of the plenum that I could see. Thanks again

03-10-2015	#4
Paul Workman Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Squires (near Ava MO in the Mark Twain N'tl Forest) - Missouri Posts: 6,493	Re: Engine Cut out after 3-5 seconds I'm leaning toward fuel issue myself; as I guess most are too. Otherwise, there'd be a flood of suggestions to augment what Cliff has said. For instance... This was the crud that came out of my filter after only 40k miles. I verified I had a delivery problem, even after replacing a pump that went bad by taking it for a drive w/ the fuel pressure gauge taped to the windshield... But, we can get into that - one step at a time, I recon. __________________ Good carz, good food, good friendz = the best of timez! 90 #1202 "FBI" top end ported & relieved Cam timing by "Pete the Greek" Sans secondaries Chip & dyno tuning by Haibeck Automotive SW headers, X-pipe, MF muffs Former Secretary, ZR-1 Net Registry

03-10-2015	#5
Jagdpanzer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Northern VA Posts: 2,644	Re: Engine Cut out after 3-5 seconds Similar thing happen to my 94 when I first got it. Turned out the primary fuel pump was seized up and only the secondary fuel was working which the ECM shuts off when then engine coolant temp reaches 176 degrees. Replaced the primary pump and it has run fine ever since. Also keep in mind when the engine is up to temp during restart the ECM runs both pumps until the engine reaches firing speed of around 400 rpm. Then the secondary pump is cut off. When driving the ECM turns the secondary on based on power key full power position and driving demand. __________________ Phil Wasinger 1994 Torch Red ZR-1 WAZOO Member George Braml Intake