Water/Methanol Injection... - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

Ccmano · 02-23-2010

I'm curious if anyone has ever tried water/methanol injection on an LT5? It's supposed to significantly increase the octane rating (25%) and allow for much more agressive timing. Of all people, MAM is offering an electroncally controlled kit for $590. Thoughts....?
H

jonszr1 · 02-23-2010

i believe that ron aka cuiesenarte vet had one on his car .spelling on his handle is most likely wrong. i wonder about using one also . sure would be nice not to have to back timing down due to fuel. corey made a very conservitive aproach to timing in tuning my cars to to ca ugly fuel . in fact i do 2 parts91 to 1 part 100 oct when i go to the strip .just to be safe .i have done this ever since popping a head gasket at the strip . i wonder if detonation plays a part in some of the head gasket problems that happen . maybe someone with motor motor expertise can chime in .

LGAFF · 02-23-2010

As you probably know this is used mainly on Supercharged engines.....funny this tech was used on WWII fighter planes as a way to get a short burst of power when in a dogfight. Would be interesting to try not, sure why the kit costs so much.....its actually a washer fluid injection system.

Locobob · 02-25-2010

As Lee stated water injection is typically used in forced induction applications. I haven't seen any hard evidence of it being effective on a naturally aspirated automotive engine. If anyone has such evidence lets see it.

Ccmano · 02-25-2010

From what I have read it has the same benefits for NA engines as it does for boosted engines. Particularly high compression engines. The key appears to be retuning the engine for more timing that would not be supported without the injection. Simply adding the system without retuning will do little or nothing.
There appear to be several benefits:
The water cools the air charge and makes it more dense, like driving your car on a cool morning. A major benefit to prevent heat soak on hot days or after running hard. This by itself allows for more timing.
The methanol has the effect of an octane booster. Several reports I've read state that it brings the effective octane to about 116. This is apparently the major factor in allowing for very advanced timing settings. It is claimed that engines up to 13 to 1 compression can run on 91octane pump gas without pinging and with full timing advance.
Modern systems now use electronic controllers based on MAF, vacuum or other electronic engine control criteria to progressively inject. Allowing for optimum tuning under all load conditions.

Attached is an article in HotRod magazine that examines the issue in todays context, in their case both for boosted engines and for high compression muscle car engines that their readers tend to have.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ion/index.html

Given the sensitivity of our engines to timing and heat soak, I suspect there may be some gains to be made. I know that chip tuning done by Dominic has shown that optimum timing advance cannot be reached on pump gas. This is because the pre-ignition sensor picks up ping and instantly retards the timing, this gets worse as the engine gets hot. In theory, this system should allow maximum usable timing advance without fear of engine damage due to pre-ignition. Couple that with a cold, dense air charge and what "SAE literature refers to as `micro explosions' as the water/methanol mix flashes to vapor that helps break up the fuel droplets even further, giving a more homogeneous charge in the combustion chamber." We may have something worth investigating further here.

I'd like to hear further discussion on this.
H

jeasen · 02-25-2010

I use alcohol injection on my Turbo Buick motor. It allows me to run over 20 pounds of boost on pump gas. 20 pounds of boost on a 8 to 1 compression ratio makes the compression ratio close to 20 to 1. So alcohol injection work well.
Instead of using alcohol injection has anyone considered running our LT5 motors on E85? It would seem to me that with 16 injectors all we would need is a chip burned for E85. E85 has way more octane then our 11 to 1 compression ratio would ever need so timing could be increased also. The new injectors work with alcohol so why not use E85?

jonszr1 · 02-25-2010

how would one controll the amount of fluid that gets injected ? would it go off vacume or somehow patch into the computor?????

Ccmano · 02-25-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonszr1

how would one controll the amount of fluid that gets injected ? would it go off vacume or somehow patch into the computor?????

Generally manifold pressure, rpm and in some cases injector duty cycle. Depends on the system. However, the basic systems simply use an on/off control. There is nothing progressive about them. Reach a certain boost level or manifold pressure and they turn on, drop below and they turn off. We're talking very small quantities, a fine mist.

There are two problems with ethanol. The first is simply availabilty. Outside the midwest, availability of E85 let alone straight ethanol is very limited. The second is the corrosive properties. While the newer injectors we install are good, the rest of the fuel system was never designed for it. Even today, new cars designated for E85 use have specialized fuel system components. I suppose it could however be done. E85 alone is 105 octane.
H

Ccmano · 02-25-2010

Here's a guy that killed his Honda engine off the Honda-Tech forum that was running E85. It corroded the aluminuim parts in the fuel system and fed that mess into the cylinders. Wouldn't want to do that with an LT5.
H

"I killed a set of brand new RC's, new aeromotive fuel pump, new aeromotive regulator, then the motor had more issues. After a bad leak down test I pulled the head the machine shop said there was white powder (Aluminum Oxide) was logded in the valve guides. You could clearly see the white powder on the intake valves and port. So I am about 2 grand into fixing E85 damage. The butt kicker is I put the car back on Cam2 110 and it made the exact same power as I did before.

Maybe I got some bad batches from Citgo, I don't know but the damage and possibly exploding decent $ motor wasn't worth the possible extra hp. After my experience a few locals have been dropping injectors ect. They all switch back to VP or Sunoco race fuels and make almost the same power.

I would like to see that same car above ran on some 110 on the same timing."

LGAFF · 02-25-2010

How about tunning 100LL AV fuel? It contains Toulene, which is a compound used to reduce knock....actually it is used in most octane boosters and can actually be purchased at any Sherman Williams paint store.

02-23-2010	#1
Ccmano Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sparks, NV Posts: 2,852	Water/Methanol Injection... I'm curious if anyone has ever tried water/methanol injection on an LT5? It's supposed to significantly increase the octane rating (25%) and allow for much more agressive timing. Of all people, MAM is offering an electroncally controlled kit for $590. Thoughts....? H __________________ 90'ZR-1 #1461 Red/Black Ported Intake, Degreed Cams, OBX Headers & Exhaust, Fidanza FW, Secondary Delete, Custom tune, C6 GS Wheels. Sold 08 C6 Z51 Crystal Red Metallic Sold Vararam Intake, Tune, Sold 05 C6 Z51 Red/Black Sold 90'ZR-1 #1723 Black/Gray Sold but not forgotten 91' Z51 L98 White Vert. My First, you always remember your first. Sold. Last edited by Ccmano; 02-25-2010 at 09:21 PM.

02-23-2010	#2
jonszr1 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: lone pine and mammoth lakes Posts: 1,407	Re: Water/Methanol Injection... i believe that ron aka cuiesenarte vet had one on his car .spelling on his handle is most likely wrong. i wonder about using one also . sure would be nice not to have to back timing down due to fuel. corey made a very conservitive aproach to timing in tuning my cars to to ca ugly fuel . in fact i do 2 parts91 to 1 part 100 oct when i go to the strip .just to be safe .i have done this ever since popping a head gasket at the strip . i wonder if detonation plays a part in some of the head gasket problems that happen . maybe someone with motor motor expertise can chime in .

02-23-2010	#3
LGAFF Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Crystal Lake, IL Posts: 7,192	Re: Water/Methanol Injection... As you probably know this is used mainly on Supercharged engines.....funny this tech was used on WWII fighter planes as a way to get a short burst of power when in a dogfight. Would be interesting to try not, sure why the kit costs so much.....its actually a washer fluid injection system. __________________ LGAFF 90 #966-150K miles-sold 92 #234-sold 1987 Callaway TT #17 1991 ZR-1 #1359

02-25-2010	#4
Locobob Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,057	Re: Water/Methanol Injection... As Lee stated water injection is typically used in forced induction applications. I haven't seen any hard evidence of it being effective on a naturally aspirated automotive engine. If anyone has such evidence lets see it. __________________ Robert ZR-1 Net Registry Oregon State Director 91 ZR-1 #431 Black/Black LPE 368

02-25-2010	#5
Ccmano Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sparks, NV Posts: 2,852	Re: Water/Methanol Injection... From what I have read it has the same benefits for NA engines as it does for boosted engines. Particularly high compression engines. The key appears to be retuning the engine for more timing that would not be supported without the injection. Simply adding the system without retuning will do little or nothing. There appear to be several benefits: The water cools the air charge and makes it more dense, like driving your car on a cool morning. A major benefit to prevent heat soak on hot days or after running hard. This by itself allows for more timing. The methanol has the effect of an octane booster. Several reports I've read state that it brings the effective octane to about 116. This is apparently the major factor in allowing for very advanced timing settings. It is claimed that engines up to 13 to 1 compression can run on 91octane pump gas without pinging and with full timing advance. Modern systems now use electronic controllers based on MAF, vacuum or other electronic engine control criteria to progressively inject. Allowing for optimum tuning under all load conditions. Attached is an article in HotRod magazine that examines the issue in todays context, in their case both for boosted engines and for high compression muscle car engines that their readers tend to have. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ion/index.html Given the sensitivity of our engines to timing and heat soak, I suspect there may be some gains to be made. I know that chip tuning done by Dominic has shown that optimum timing advance cannot be reached on pump gas. This is because the pre-ignition sensor picks up ping and instantly retards the timing, this gets worse as the engine gets hot. In theory, this system should allow maximum usable timing advance without fear of engine damage due to pre-ignition. Couple that with a cold, dense air charge and what "SAE literature refers to as `micro explosions' as the water/methanol mix flashes to vapor that helps break up the fuel droplets even further, giving a more homogeneous charge in the combustion chamber." We may have something worth investigating further here. I'd like to hear further discussion on this. H __________________ 90'ZR-1 #1461 Red/Black Ported Intake, Degreed Cams, OBX Headers & Exhaust, Fidanza FW, Secondary Delete, Custom tune, C6 GS Wheels. Sold 08 C6 Z51 Crystal Red Metallic Sold Vararam Intake, Tune, Sold 05 C6 Z51 Red/Black Sold 90'ZR-1 #1723 Black/Gray Sold but not forgotten 91' Z51 L98 White Vert. My First, you always remember your first. Sold. Last edited by Ccmano; 02-25-2010 at 07:48 PM.

02-25-2010	#6
jeasen Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Bonner Springs, Kansas Posts: 34	Re: Water/Methanol Injection... I use alcohol injection on my Turbo Buick motor. It allows me to run over 20 pounds of boost on pump gas. 20 pounds of boost on a 8 to 1 compression ratio makes the compression ratio close to 20 to 1. So alcohol injection work well. Instead of using alcohol injection has anyone considered running our LT5 motors on E85? It would seem to me that with 16 injectors all we would need is a chip burned for E85. E85 has way more octane then our 11 to 1 compression ratio would ever need so timing could be increased also. The new injectors work with alcohol so why not use E85? __________________ 1994 ZR1 Red on Red #111

02-25-2010	#7
jonszr1 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: lone pine and mammoth lakes Posts: 1,407	Re: Water/Methanol Injection... how would one controll the amount of fluid that gets injected ? would it go off vacume or somehow patch into the computor?????

02-25-2010	#9
Ccmano Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sparks, NV Posts: 2,852	Re: Water/Methanol Injection... Here's a guy that killed his Honda engine off the Honda-Tech forum that was running E85. It corroded the aluminuim parts in the fuel system and fed that mess into the cylinders. Wouldn't want to do that with an LT5. H "I killed a set of brand new RC's, new aeromotive fuel pump, new aeromotive regulator, then the motor had more issues. After a bad leak down test I pulled the head the machine shop said there was white powder (Aluminum Oxide) was logded in the valve guides. You could clearly see the white powder on the intake valves and port. So I am about 2 grand into fixing E85 damage. The butt kicker is I put the car back on Cam2 110 and it made the exact same power as I did before. Maybe I got some bad batches from Citgo, I don't know but the damage and possibly exploding decent $ motor wasn't worth the possible extra hp. After my experience a few locals have been dropping injectors ect. They all switch back to VP or Sunoco race fuels and make almost the same power. I would like to see that same car above ran on some 110 on the same timing." __________________ 90'ZR-1 #1461 Red/Black Ported Intake, Degreed Cams, OBX Headers & Exhaust, Fidanza FW, Secondary Delete, Custom tune, C6 GS Wheels. Sold 08 C6 Z51 Crystal Red Metallic Sold Vararam Intake, Tune, Sold 05 C6 Z51 Red/Black Sold 90'ZR-1 #1723 Black/Gray Sold but not forgotten 91' Z51 L98 White Vert. My First, you always remember your first. Sold.