I think the price for Vettes just doubled!

[Paul Workman]

Or, at least went up on the "futures" market! Any thoughts on that? Someone has a crystal ball they care to gaze into and tell us what's in the future for the Vette?

Course, the Brotherhood of the Beast has had to deal with no factory support for some time now, so nuttin' new here. But, those 09 ZR1s n C6 Z06s now...I recon they will be a bit rich for my blood for a looooong time!

What say U?

P.

[tomtom72]

:dontknow:

It just seems logical that if the CAFE requirements remain that the vettes will have a gas guzzler tax across the entire line up? I wonder how that fits in with the new corporate thinking of all fuel efficient cars?

I fear that the car guys inside GM will be out voted. I doubt that they can defend the resources needed by a corvette's development versus the return on those expenditures. I doubt that anyone would listen to the valid explanation of technology leadership and trickle down application to the rest of the product lines? I fear that the answer to those guys would be "just do it in a Cobalt, who needs the corvette for that???"

Some one, maybe SecondChance said it, "we have witnessed the second passing of the high performance age"......:(

[secondchance]

Well... It is tough to defend existence of high performance as our generation, here in the US, grew up to accept and understand. We are running out of oil. And as China and India become relatively more prosperous they will desire our idea of "better life" - automobiles!
Last year a news report said that in the US per 1000 population of driving age we have 1025 or so vehicles. Same figure for Europe and Japan was around 750. As for India and China was 17 and 4 respectively if my memory serves me correct. Imagine amount of oil we need when China reaches 500 per 1000 level. At roughly 4 times our population, 500 per 1000 represents twice the consumption of US and currently we burn something like 20-25% of world oil consumption.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out vehicles as we know it cannot be supported in next 10-20 years. Also, factor in India and the other side of fuel consumption, namely pollution.
I hate to be pessimistic but this may be it for 3500 lbs, 400 hp, 400 lbs/ft, 20 miles to a gallon, high performance machines we all have fallen in love with growing up in 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s.
Our kids nay be discussing copper top verses Everlast in performance car forum. Of course, then disposal of used up batteries may be a hot topic.
I, for one, intend to enjoy this while it last. Worst comes to worse, I will dig out my old riding boots, polish it (a lot less to polish than my Z) and find me a fastest thoroughbred and go for a ride.:thumbsup:

[XfireZ51]

If you listened to Fritz Henderson yesterday and President Obama yesterday, the BG plant isn't on the list of plant closings. Most of them are in MI. In the late 60's the Feds started mandating mpg and emissions standards. The 4th and 6th Gen ZR1s are products of those mandates.
Necessity is the mother of invention and sometimes government performs the necessary role of making businesses do things they wouldn't tend to do otherwise. The "adversity" from the government mandates imposed over 40 years ago was responsible for challenging the engineers and designers of the automotive industry to come up with the systems we have today. The C6, or C4 ZR1 for that matter, would not have been possible without the engine and powertrain control systems developed for emissions requirements IMO.
Sometimes business needs a good swift kick in the arse. I don't doubt that we'll see the same thing repeated this time around. I have a lot of faith in the creativity of the people designing, engineering, and building our cars.
Consider it "forced evolution".

[scottfab]

find me a fastest thoroughbred and go for a ride.:thumbsup:

That's it in a nut shell. It is an era gone by now like the trasition from the horse to the car. We all saw it coming but the sudden onset of this recession/depression kinda pushed it over. Slowly but surely there will be fewer high perf daily drivers. We'll continue to have events and gatherings to show and drive our HP cars but the heyday (second coming of HP cars) is over. It was a GREAT ride and I envy those that hit the peak with the 09 ZR1 !!!

Thing is with BG is this. Ya still have to have a flagship of performance. I just can't see them (GM tobe known as Newgov co.) closing BG.
I just hope it does not mean that the C7 or C8 is a worked over
2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP Roadster (http://www.automobilemag.com/am/99/2007/pontiac/solstice/gxp_roadster/3023/index.html)
Well I guess it could be worse. Could be one of these:
Click to see yuk (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/ViewModelDetail/make=Pontiac/model=Aztek/?mktcat=pontiac-aztek-review&kw=pontiac+aztek+review&mktid=gc26481329)

OH well, I am sure glad I stocked up on spare parts.

[FU]

LISTEN

After I decide to sell my Vette's is going to be the time that price's will double. Not before or during. After..........

[XfireZ51]

LISTEN

After I decide to sell my Vette's is going to be the time that price's will double. Not before or during. After..........


Frank,

Thanks. We'll be keeping an eye on ya! :hello::mrgreen:

[XfireZ51]

Well I guess it could be worse. Could be one of these:
Click to see yuk (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/ViewModelDetail/make=Pontiac/model=Aztek/?mktcat=pontiac-aztek-review&kw=pontiac+aztek+review&mktid=gc26481329)

OH well, I am sure glad I stocked up on spare parts.

I mean seriously, GM did THAT WITHOUT government help. Can't get much worse IMO.

[Aurora40]

We are running out of oil. And as China and India become relatively more prosperous they will desire our idea of "better life" - automobiles!
Last year a news report said that in the US per 1000 population of driving age we have 1025 or so vehicles. Same figure for Europe and Japan was around 750. As for India and China was 17 and 4 respectively if my memory serves me correct. Imagine amount of oil we need when China reaches 500 per 1000 level. At roughly 4 times our population, 500 per 1000 represents twice the consumption of US and currently we burn something like 20-25% of world oil consumption.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out vehicles as we know it cannot be supported in next 10-20 years. Also, factor in India and the other side of fuel consumption, namely pollution.
I don't recall the EPA or CAFE as having any control over India or China. New vehicles in the US run extremely clean. The notion of pollution vs CAFE is a non-issue. Nor do I want to go easy on the oil so that there's some left for them. If they really start using it to where supply can't keep up, the price will rise, curbing their demand.

[Aurora40]

Necessity is the mother of invention and sometimes government performs the necessary role of making businesses do things they wouldn't tend to do otherwise. The "adversity" from the government mandates imposed over 40 years ago was responsible for challenging the engineers and designers of the automotive industry to come up with the systems we have today. The C6, or C4 ZR1 for that matter, would not have been possible without the engine and powertrain control systems developed for emissions requirements IMO.
Do you recall the time frame between the last "high power" Corvette, and the first C4 ZR-1? It was a pretty long stretch. Fuel injection, computer controls, etc would have come about anyway, regardless of the EPA. The computer revolution wasn't spurred on by CAFE or the EPA. I personally don't look forward to another malaise era while we wait for some technological breakthrough that may or may not happen. Engineers 40 years ago weren't sitting around doing nothing, waiting for the federal government to challenge them.

Also, that statement in your post is sort of comical. Necessity is the mother of invention. So apparently in this case there is no real necessity, which is why the government is inventing it. Should you instead say "Government mandates are the mother of invention"?

[secondchance]

I don't recall the EPA or CAFE as having any control over India or China. New vehicles in the US run extremely clean. The notion of pollution vs CAFE is a non-issue. Nor do I want to go easy on the oil so that there's some left for them. If they really start using it to where supply can't keep up, the price will rise, curbing their demand.

All I am saying is CAFE is being brought on in order to respond to hike in oil price as a result of higher demand (not just for cars but for growing 3rd world industry). As for EPA, again, as more and more fuel is burnt through out the world everyone, domestic or foreign, simply have to respond by stricter standards.

[Aurora40]

So if oil prices come down, do you feel CAFE should be repealed?

[secondchance]

So if oil prices come down, do you feel CAFE should be repealed?

For one, oil price in the long run will not come down. At least in forseeable future.
Do you recall 55 MPH nationwide limit? It was sold at the time as a means of saving fuel. It took almost 20 years to repeal. We all know how governments behave. Once they sell you on any restriction, they hate to give it back. Even when the reason for restriction goes away.
I am no expert but the reason Detroit was able to push SUVs (big ones) was due to trucks being governed by lower CAFE requirement? Of course, public responded to this positively since gas was relatively cheap during the 90s.

To answer your question, yes. If oil prices fall and we no longer have fear of relying on imported oil, CAFE should be repealed. Would it be successful? 55 mph limit was repealed and lifted - sanity prevailed!

I just hope safety nazis don't try to bring back 55 limit with need to conserve oil.

[Paul Workman]

:dontknow:

Some one, maybe SecondChance said it, "we have witnessed the second passing of the high performance age"......:(

Tomtom-

In a nutshell, your comment is at the core of my "price doubling" thread. I hope as Dom says the Corvette can meet the CAFE standards gracefully. (Key word: Hope) But, I wonder if the day of the NA, 500+ hp, ground pounding V8s may be a thing of the past in the not so distant future. With the government selecting several of the board of directors at GM and this out of control "green" movement just building a head of steam, it seems to me Corvette (as we know it) might be sidelined (or worse) at some point soon. Or worse? Remember what Ford did to the mighty Mustang in the mid 70s? aka the "Mustang II"?? (Oh...Just shoot me!).

I'm not making any point. Just interested in what is in other people's heads too.

P.

[XfireZ51]

Tomtom-

...With the government selecting several of the board of directors at GM and

To be expected when you provide the majority of the funding. Not sure what the difference is when a Buffett provides funding and demands board seat or when the US Treasury does it and demands board seats. They're both investors looking to maximize outcome.




this out of control "green" movement just building a head of steam, it seems to me Corvette (as we know it) might be sidelined (or worse) at some point soon. Or worse? Remember what Ford did to the mighty Mustang in the mid 70s? aka the "Mustang II"?? (Oh...Just shoot me!).

Green movement doesn't mean end of Corvette. Said the same thing 35 years ago, and here we are at 638hp. I don't think they are out of control. They provide a necessary counter to unbridled disregard for the environment. Yin and Yang. Both a necessity. The Mustang II was Ford's decision not the "greenies". Corvette will be different. Maybe a Mr. Fusion in the back. Wouldn't that be cool.

[Aurora40]

Said the same thing 35 years ago, and here we are at 638hp.

Thirty five years ago! Are you at some incredible age where thirty five years is like nothing? Do you plan on living for hundreds of years more, so that a thirty five year hiatus on enjoyable cars is no sweat???

[XfireZ51]

Thirty five years ago! Are you at some incredible age where thirty five years is like nothing? Do you plan on living for hundreds of years more, so that a thirty five year hiatus on enjoyable cars is no sweat???

Come on Bob. Its been a pretty good ride since the mid 80's starting with the lowly Xfire. And don't think for a minute that wasn't "managed" by the OEMs.

[secondchance]

Come on guys! look at the bright side.
For next 10 to 30 years (optimistic to pessimistic estimate), King of the Hill status for ZR-1 seems to be guaranteed!
I, for one, was sad to accept hp inflation that seems to be happening in new cars. Mercedes with 500 plus horses?
At this point, with minor mod, 90s ZR-1's spanking ability is virtually guaranteed!:cheers:
I for one will spend my money on restoration, engine mod, and gasoline.:thumbsup:
Furthermore, as we recover economically and people get fed up with efficient "transportation appliances", 90s to 2009 performance cars will develop nostalgic, mythological values as we have for hemis, 428, 429 Fords and big rat block motored muscle cars.

[XfireZ51]

Come on guys! look at the bright side.
For next 10 to 30 years (optimistic to pessimistic estimate), King of the Hill status for ZR-1 seems to be guaranteed!
I, for one, was sad to accept hp inflation that seems to be happening in new cars. Mercedes with 500 plus horses?
At this point, with minor mod, 90s ZR-1's spanking ability is virtually guaranteed!:cheers:
I for one will spend my money on restoration, engine mod, and gasoline.:thumbsup:
Furthermore, as we recover economically and people get fed up with efficient "transportation appliances", 90s to 2009 performance cars will develop nostalgic, mythological values as we have for hemis, 428, 429 Fords and big rat block motored muscle cars.


HERE HERE!

[Paul Workman]

Furthermore, as we recover economically and people get fed up with efficient "transportation appliances", 90s to 2009 performance cars will develop nostalgic, mythological values as we have for hemis, 428, 429 Fords and big rat block motored muscle cars.

Ahem! As I said: I think the price for Vettes just doubled!:thumbsup: I made the mistake (once) of selling my 69 Chevelle SS 396 for $500 to buy a station wagon POS.:rolleyes: And, I never stopped kickin' myself for that "brain fart". It's not gonna happen this time around!

P.

[secondchance]

Ahem! As I said: I think the price for Vettes just doubled!:thumbsup: I made the mistake (once) of selling my 69 Chevelle SS 396 for $500 to buy a station wagon POS.:rolleyes: And, I never stopped kickin' myself for that "brain fart". It's not gonna happen this time around!

P.

I christen thee "Secondchnce II:mrgreen:"!

[tomtom72]

Well Paul, I too had a brain fart....back in 85 I sold my 72 LT-1 w/ factory air.

Ya know if direct injection can yield a 300 hp six cylinder camaro motor, what would it do for a honkin' corvette V8?????

I have faith in the power train guys because they have to have some degree of "gear head" in them, no? I think that they can come up with the answer? No, make that I think that they want to come with the answer ( if they are allowed to do so ) because they like cars too...just like we like cars..I guess my jury is "still out" on the value thing. Mainly because like Frank, they will double the second I pass title to the new owner!:sign10:

:cheers:

[XfireZ51]

Well Paul, I too had a brain fart....back in 85 I sold my 72 LT-1 w/ factory air.

Ya know if direct injection can yield a 300 hp six cylinder camaro motor, what would it do for a honkin' corvette V8?????

I have faith in the power train guys because they have to have some degree of "gear head" in them, no? I think that they can come up with the answer? No, make that I think that they want to come with the answer ( if they are allowed to do so ) because they like cars too...just like we like cars..I guess my jury is "still out" on the value thing. Mainly because like Frank, they will double the second I pass title to the new owner!:sign10:

:cheers:


Tom,

I worked for GM back in early 70's and had ordered a 72 ZR-1 as a company car. The zone office wouldn't drive it because it had no A/C so I had to change the order to a base 350. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

The 71 LT-1 would be my pick for a shark. Lowered compression for unleaded, but still retained the fiberoptics in the cockpit. I still think that dashboard was the best GM put in a Vette. Looked awesome at night.

[tomtom72]

Tom,

I worked for GM back in early 70's and had ordered a 72 ZR-1 as a company car. The zone office wouldn't drive it because it had no A/C so I had to change the order to a base 350. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

The 71 LT-1 would be my pick for a shark. Lowered compression for unleaded, but still retained the fiberoptics in the cockpit. I still think that dashboard was the best GM put in a Vette. Looked awesome at night.

I agree about the fiber optics, that was waaaay cool!!!
I'm envious! Yea the ZR1 option was not for the fient of heart. That was a hard core "so you wanna road race? Well, we've got your starting point" package. No P/S, no A/C, F41, J56, 5qt baffled pan, TI ignition, radio & heater delete(?), no P/B, alumin rad, overflow tank, M22, 3.90:1 gear(?).....I think I got some of it right?

Ya wanna laugh? My 72 was eventually used for HPDE's or whatever there was back in the late 70's by it's original owner. Sooooo, when I bought it from the OO he had transplanted quite a few things from the ZR1 list into the car for his track use & the stuff was still there when I bought it. As he tracked it over a three yr period he replaced the stock 72 stuff with ZR1 parts as he either broke stuff or found the ZR1 stuff to be better for his use of the car. When I got the car it had M22, F41 & the 5qt pan and I put the A/C back in and modded the pan to accept the P/S back in the car. I didn't know any better because I didn't know anything about vettes at the time! I also had a set of "done" camel hump heads for it to go with a "done" block & reciprocating assembly from a 71 LT-1 .....I know, I know, shame on me, but I had no idea what I was doing wrong. Al hadn't invented the inter net yet! The one thing, that car was fun while I had it! Oh yea, it had dealer installed 69 side pipes too!!!:mrgreen: