What would cause this major catastrophe

[limey]

A tuner i had build a 368 motor a while back managed to really screw this up.
Total miles on motor 8!

I'm sure Frank can guess who the builder was, can't you Frank?


http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/images/DSCN9983.JPG


http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/images/DSCN9973.JPG

http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/images/DSCN9974.JPG









http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/images/DSCN9980.JPG

http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/images/DSCN9981.JPG

http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/images/DSCN9982.JPG

[1990 415]

was he too cheap to put in new bearings?

[flyin ryan]

Not very pretty, Kurt. Oil does a great job...when you have it!

[limey]

was he too cheap to put in new bearings?

They were new OEM GM Bearings.

[flyin ryan]

They were new OEM GM Bearings.Knowing you i suspected that...do you have 'ANY' idea what the clearance was...at all? Every engine i do, the customer gets a blueprint sheet of everything. Clearances on every rod, main journal etc. where i installed the cam(s), valve to piston clearance's etc. everything. I should post one sometimes for you guys, if you guys are interested at all. I'm the only guy around my area that spends the time doing that sort of thing, should be mandatory in my book.

[Jeffvette]

Not very pretty, Kurt. Oil does a great job...when you have it!


Major oil starvation. Not very pretty. Suspect a passage blocked, or the oil pump was not doing it's job.

[-=Jeff=-]

I bet I can even guess who the builder is..

[Kevin]

i'd say that was jeal but with 8 miles I have to be wrong....other then that I can't come up with anyone....but if I had to go distance wise from you I can make a few guesses

[limey]

None other than kirchoeffer.

Had the motor for 3 years, over $20,000.00 to build the motor during that time, what with head work, intake the whole nine yards.

At this point, i'm going towards parting the motor out to get some coin back.

So here goes, parts off of the motor that are still good.

SGC Stage 3 Cams $2500.00 the set.

Siamesed and dropped intake plenum powder coated Red $1500.00

Ported injector housings $800.00 the pair powder coated red

Watson headers $950.00 thermal coated 1 7/8" primary

JE Pistons and rods $1000.00 (If these are in any way faulty when inspected, i will refund 100% of the cost)

Heads, larger valves - massive porting work $3500.00 the pair

Tilton twin disk clutch flywheel assembly $750.00

Block, with studded mains & all clearance work for a 415 already performed (If in any way faulty when inspected, i will refund 100% of the cost) $2000.00

Throttle body 63mm with modified airhorn $850.00 powder coated red

Going up here first, then off to ebay it goes.

Paypal preffered payment.

[-=Jeff=-]

None other than kirchoeffer.

Had the motor for 3 years, over $20,000.00 to build the motor during that time, what with head work, intake the whole nine yards.

At this point, i'm going towards parting the motor out to get some coin back.



I know of others with similar experiences/problems with his work as well

[tccrab]

Kurt:

Mistakes happen.
:rolleyes:
Did the tuner stand behind his work and offer to make good on your motor?
What's the story?

The reason I ask is because my neighbor has a '66 Jag that he just last week blew the motor for the 2nd time.
6 or 8 months ago, he dropped a piston, and had sent the motor to a Jag specialist for a rebuild.
The rebuilt motor made it about the same mileage that yours did before the oil pressure went to 10psi.
Some kind of debris lodged in an oil galley somewhere found it's way into #1 main and "bye bye bottom end".
The tuner asked him to ship it back so that he could inspect it and providing that the failure was related to the rebuild, he would rebuild it for free.
Seems like a perfectly reasonably thing for a tuner that wants to keep his reputation would do.
Of course all bets are off if the motor was incorrectly broken in, or abused/mistreated.

TomC
"Crabs"

[USAFPILOT]

Why cant you put it back together? If all those parts are still good? Block Heads etc.

[Jeffvette]

Why cant you put it back together? If all those parts are still good? Block Heads etc.


Ever gotten soured on a project because it has taken more money and more time and has just pissed you off?

[rhipsher]

Ever gotten soured on a project because it has taken more money and more time and has just pissed you off?
Yep! That would definitely take the wind out of my sails. That makes all of my ZR-1 related problems seem small.

[Pete]

Kurt,that sucks bro.

Is that a picture of a freeze plug missing in the crank,if so that's twice i see it from same builder.

Just a thought for the rest of you, just because it sounds and talks like a race car driver or performance engine builder, most likely it's not.

Only a few hillbillies are good race car drivers or performance engine builders the rest of them are just profesional hilbillies,period.
Out to grab a buck.

Pete

[GOLDCYLON]

Ever gotten soured on a project because it has taken more money and more time and has just pissed you off?

At least once or twice and its damn disheartning

[cvette]

Just a thought for the rest of you, just because it sounds and talks like a race car driver or performance engine builder, most likely it's not.

Only a few hillbillies are good race car drivers or performance engine builders the rest of them are just profesional hilbillies,period.
Out to grab a buck.

Pete

Do you know of another such person Pete?:icon_scra

C

[Zr1 Destroyer]

Whoa........was the rubber o-ring(crank snout/oil pump) missed on the build....if so that will cause MAJOR oil pressure issues.


Also was the oil pick-up o-ring installed in the pan?

[Zr1 Destroyer]

None other than kirchoeffer."Wrong Bearing Billy" is back at it again eah......I'll have to point nj out to this thread!!!

[rhipsher]

It took him 3 years to build that motor? Is that a normal build time for a 368. Or did he have to many other projects going on? Don't most tuners give you some kind of warrenty? Lingenfelter gives you 2 years or 24,000 miles and a normal build time of 4 to 5 weeks. Unless I'm missing something here. I wouldn't take it to somebody who didn't have a good reputation building trick LT5's. If his build caused the burned up bearing/crank then he should refund your money so you can take it to somebody more competent. If I built a motor like that for a customer and the same thing happened I would feel horrible about it. And I would make it right. What did this Kir? whatever his name is tell you. That it was to bad? And that it wasn't his problem anymore or something? I'd be fighting made over that. $20,000? And a three year wait? And only get to drive it 8 stinking miles before that happened? After the depression wore off I'd be steamed and ready to do something about it.

[Kevin]

It took him 3 years to build that motor? Is that a normal build time for a 368. Or did he have to many other projects going on?

that would be a long time for a 415 or larger build.

[Pete]

Do you know of another such person Pete?:icon_scra

C


:)
I will have to go in witness protection if i say.[-X

Pete

[Kevin]

Who is the builder of this engine?

kirchoeffer
http://zr1netregistry.com/forum/showpost.php?p=57811&postcount=9

[xlr8nflorida]

kirchoeffer
http://zr1netregistry.com/forum/showpost.php?p=57811&postcount=9


Yes, I read that but I mean, I never heard of the guy and I consider myself fairly educated on tuners. Maybe I've just been under a rock............

[Kevin]

I've heard his name come up a few times in conversation. can't say i know much more about him

[rhipsher]

Hey Limey! I would not part out that motor. So you need a new crank and bearings or at least have the crank reground and polished with bearings to fit the regrind. And make this guy pay for it. On top of refunding your money. I would not part out the motor over those two items. Don't let it get you down to bad. It can be fixed.

[cvette]

Yes, I read that but I mean, I never heard of the guy and I consider myself fairly educated on tuners. Maybe I've just been under a rock............


As I recall, Kirchoffer was a "branch" of the Jeal franchise here in the states. Also as I recall in the old LT5 registry magazines he was known as Jeal 3.
Kurt, didn't you have another 368 in Bowling Green about 6 or 7 years ago that he built. I thought at that time you were returning that one because of issues. Is this the same one?

[Jeffvette]

Hey Limey! I would not part out that motor. So you need a new crank and bearings or at least have the crank reground and polished with bearings to fit the regrind. And make this guy pay for it. On top of refunding your money. I would not part out the motor over those two items. Don't let it get you down to bad. It can be fixed.


I would not expect a refund from Billy K. I would even venture to guess it has already been discussed and denied.

[limey]

I guess I should elaborate as to this 368 build, although I would much rather sit down with a V&T and chill and tell the story, I'll try to paraphrase as best I can.

In 2005 I owned a 415 motor built by BK (Bill Kirchoeffer) it was a monster putting down 602 RWHP, I also had nitrous on top of that, I was well into the street scene at that time, always racing for top dog status, so every weekend I would take the car out and beat on it, well needless to say I blew the motor running the juice. I sent it back to him for a rebuild, drove to KY to pick up in person, paid my money for the overhaul and got the motor back about 4 months later, installed in the car, removed all the nitrous system as I swore I would not ever run the juice on a 415 motor again, drove the car for roughly 2-300 miles before it locked up. I delivered it to him @ BG in May 2005 during the gathering.

It stayed with him for roughly 1 year, where during this we came to find that when I blew the motor the previous time, he failed to check that the crank was straight, he built the motor back in early 2005 with a bent crank, after driving about 300 miles, the bearings gave way and screwed up the engine. The crank was then sent to Moldex to be repaired, they had it for roughly 6 months, when they then sent it back to BK and he advised me that they (Moldex) had ground the main journals all 10 thou & that the crank was now no use. Roll forward to 2007 & i got fed up and told BK to send me the crank and i had someone to fix it, that someone was Moldex. Well, Moldex were duelly sent the crank again and that is where it still is to this day, if they can ever find it!

Now, where does the 368 come to play, well in 2005 I also sent BK a complete short block and told him to build the stock short block with 368 pistons and make it bullet proof, I told him to use the entire top end off of the 415 that he already had and that I would send stock heads to be pre worked for the 415 when it was ready. So at this point he now has two of my motors. He built the 368, I drove up there, paid him $16,000.00 and left on my travels back to FL. The $16k was though paid over a period of time, but the balance was paid in full at time of collection.

After I got the motor back, I installed it in the car and it would not run, for 4 months off and on I tried everything to get it to run. In fact, picture this, I pulled a perfect good 1990 motor out of one car, took every single external part off of that motor and put in on the 368, and when I say everything , I mean just that, the only parts left where the hard parts. I then put it back in the car, and it done the same thing,wouldn't start.

I took the 368 motor back out and sent it back to BK, then I sent the car to BK for him to install the 368 and get it running once and for all.

This took him just over another year to get finished, he got it running, said he put on 100 miles and then told me to come get the car. During this time though, we had more than parted ways & i decided i was going to pay a shipper to pick up the car as i really didn;t want to visit him in KY, in November 2008 the car was delivered to me in Tampa, the truck driver called me 30 minutes before getting to my house, I told him I would leave shortly and meet him at the gate. I knew things were bad when I got to the main road where I was to meet the driver when I see fire engines and an ambulance, as the truck driver was unloading the chains holding the car down, the e-brake wasn't on and it rolled back, pinned him under the wheels and broke his arm and wrist! I still had to take the car that day, I started it up and knew instantly that it was running like crap, SGC Stage 3 cams in a 368 are way too big, yet he assured me the idle was just perfect. More BS, that car ran like crap, there was no gas in it, so I popped to the gas station and filled it up, I drove 7-8 miles before it just cut out and that was it.

Now you know why I will not send it back to BK, what's the point. I'll be up for social security by the time he gets it finished.

The 415 is now @ Haibecks, waiting on me this time to decide what I want to do.

Oh and on a completely different issue with BK, you may remember I had the main bearings made? Well, I paid BK $57,000.00 for them, every single set was made wrong, if you purchased a set from me back in 2007 you would have received a set that was wrong and then after I had them fixed, at my expense which was another $11,000.00 I sent out replacements. You want to know what his solution to the fix was? Well, have your customers grind down the block to make the bearings fit.

So, there we are, BK has had almost $110k of my money over the past 8 years and not a dime more, now you also know why I feel like parting out the 368, it's a bloody nightmare.

[-=Jeff=-]

Damn Kurt that really sucks...

At least you know it will be right when Marc is done with it

[diamond zr1]

wow Kurt/you could tell this story on believe it or not// makes my stories sound like fairy tails/

[jonszr1]

that guy is a real piece of//////////work. you are handling this way better than i would. hopefully no one ever uses this guy again

[tomtom72]

Jez, Kurt you are being civil about this, a reasonable response would have been to sue the guy...at least or just shoot him.

I really hate to bring this up, but as I was in on that group buy of the bearings. I would like to know for sure if there is a way to tell if the set I bought are okay to use? I was in from the Thread you had up at CF/ZR-1 section, where you let us pre-order before the bearings were made.

Is there an easy way for me to identify if I need to grind the block to use the set I bought?

:cheers:
Tom

[Aurora40]

Jez, Kurt you are being civil about this, a reasonable response would have been to sue the guy...at least or just shoot him.
Heheh, I was thinking the same thing. For the amount of money sunk into that jerk, it would be chump change to toss in a little more and have him killed...

Sorry to hear about that horrifically bad experience though! :jawdrop:

[Kevin]

Thanks for telling the story Kurt, it was an interesting read

[limey]

Jez, Kurt you are being civil about this, a reasonable response would have been to sue the guy...at least or just shoot him.

I really hate to bring this up, but as I was in on that group buy of the bearings. I would like to know for sure if there is a way to tell if the set I bought are okay to use? I was in from the Thread you had up at CF/ZR-1 section, where you let us pre-order before the bearings were made.

Is there an easy way for me to identify if I need to grind the block to use the set I bought?

:cheers:
Tom

Tom,

The best way is to look at the main thrust bearing, on the back side, tell me if the radius is a 90 degree angle, or if it is a rolled "bend" The back side as in the part that sits on the lower crankcase girdle and not the face that touches the actual crank.

[Nick]

Quite a story, Kurt. Hope you get something out of the motor salvage/parting out issue! :cheers:

[USAFPILOT]

These story's reaffirm my thoughts of just leaving my engine stock, at least the bottom end. BUt I do like those big bore 415's. Maybe one day. At least I know who NOT to send it to.

[Jagdpanzer]

Tom,

The best way is to look at the main thrust bearing, on the back side, tell me if the radius is a 90 degree angle, or if it is a rolled "bend" The back side as in the part that sits on the lower crankcase girdle and not the face that touches the actual crank.

Kurt,
Are the thrust bearings the only ones you had a problem with?

[Jeffvette]

Kurt,
Are the thrust bearings the only ones you had a problem with?


It's just the thrust bearing.

[Kevin]

These story's reaffirm my thoughts of just leaving my engine stock, at least the bottom end. BUt I do like those big bore 415's. Maybe one day. At least I know who NOT to send it to.

you have someone very trust worthy in new braunfels, cory henderson. I'd send my car to him in a second and not even think twice about driving it back from texas to pa or va. Cory (not sure if he has one or two R's in his name), Mark Haibeck, Jeff, LPE, SGC (if they still do zr-1s), Vette Docs (if they still do zr-1s), and van Dorn. All of them would work on my car, I'd pick it up and drive it anywhere without having a second thought about it. We're lucky we don't have many slimeball shops in our hobby and the bad ones have been outed so we know who not to deal with. If you have questions/concerns just ask us.

[Jeffvette]

you have someone very trust worthy in new braunfels, cory henderson. I'd send my car to him in a second and not even think twice about driving it back from texas to pa or va. Cory (not sure if he has one or two R's in his name), Mark Haibeck, Jeff, LPE, SGC (if they still do zr-1s), Vette Docs (if they still do zr-1s), and van Dorn. All of them would work on my car, I'd pick it up and drive it anywhere without having a second thought about it. We're lucky we don't have many slimeball shops in our hobby and the bad ones have been outed so we know who not to deal with. If you have questions/concerns just ask us.


Last I heard Vette Dr's farmed their LT5 stuff out to Billy K.

[Kevin]

Last I heard Vette Dr's farmed their LT5 stuff out to Billy K.

and it's information like this that made me come back. ok scratch them off the list for zr-1 work

[Pete]

Now imagine if this was a corperate owned forum with a bunch of sponsers.

This thread would have been locked/deleted and we would all be booted off.

Isn't freedom of speach nice.:thumbsup:

Pete

[WydGlydJim]

Sad read.
:(

[DMark]

..... This thread would have been locked/deleted and we would all be booted off.....
Now what forum would be so dumb as to do something like that? :dontknow:

Run off a good bunch of experts and all of their collective knowledge! :rolleyes:

Who could be so stupid. Without thread like this a forum would have to start posting ads from corperate sponsers for "Art Ads Posters" and "forum discounts" and such. ;)

[Zr1 Destroyer]

Ahhhhh bearings.........:happy1::happy1::happy1:

[rhipsher]

$110,000 Holly sheep sheet. I'll never have that kind of chump change to spend on a toy. Even though you didn't sue him or kidnapp his kids over it, you certainly ruined what was left of his reputation here. And its going to have an impact on his business one way or another. This is like the ZR-1 Angies list. Hahaha!:mrgreen:

[VetteMed]

Now imagine if this was a corperate owned forum with a bunch of sponsers.

This thread would have been locked/deleted and we would all be booted off.

Isn't freedom of speach nice.:thumbsup:

Pete

Amen to that... Nice to see the unvarnished truth being made available.

[DDSLT5]

Last I heard Vette Dr's farmed their LT5 stuff out to Billy K.

That would explain Kurt's comment to FU re: his former 415.

[tccrab]

:(
It's really sad to hear of something like this.
Sad for the person who is at the receiving end, and sad for the person who allegedly caused it.
We are such a small community, bad news travels very quickly.

There's always two sides to every story and it would be entertaining to hear the other side.

In the interest of decency and in all fairness, he really should be given the chance to address these allegations.

A reputation is being trashed here, we would remiss if we didn't give him the chance to defend his good(?) name.

TomC
"Crabs"

[limey]

I would love for BK to come on here and explain why my 368 motor damaged the bottom end like that & when he will either warranty the damage or refund my money.

I would also love for BK to come on here and explain to me why he didn't accept the return of the LT5 bearings that were made incorrectly inspite of me paying him $57,000.00 & after he advised me that the bearings fit and passed all quality controls, i would like to know if he will reimburse me the tooling costs as well as all labour to re-machine the thrust bearing so as to fit per oem specs and NOT have to resort to grinding the block for them to work.

Of course, there are always two sides to a story, so come on BK, step up and warranty these bearings you sold me that didn't fit. In fact, i still have a few hundered sets sitting on the shelf if you would like to refund me for them?

The really sad deal with all this is that I used to get on well with BK, i would stay at his house & him and his wife would come to FL and stay with us.

[rhipsher]

If this is his fault he could make it right and at least save some face. True mistakes happen but it's not worth loosing customers or wrecking friendship over especially now as tight as times are and they are freaken tighter than I've ever seen them.

[ALZR1]

I would love for BK to come on here and explain why my 368 motor damaged the bottom end like that & when he will either warranty the damage or refund my money.

I would also love for BK to come on here and explain to me why he didn't accept the return of the LT5 bearings that were made incorrectly inspite of me paying him $57,000.00 & after he advised me that the bearings fit and passed all quality controls, i would like to know if he will reimburse me the tooling costs as well as all labour to re-machine the thrust bearing so as to fit per oem specs and NOT have to resort to grinding the block for them to work.

Of course, there are always two sides to a story, so come on BK, step up and warranty these bearings you sold me that didn't fit. In fact, i still have a few hundered sets sitting on the shelf if you would like to refund me for them?

The really sad deal with all this is that I used to get on well with BK, i would stay at his house & him and his wife would come to FL and stay with us.

Sorry to hear about you motor Kurt,I know how feel.
I think he needs to tell A few stories,mine included.

AL.

[Polo-1]

A tuner i had build a 368 motor a while back managed to really screw this up.
Total miles on motor 8!

http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/images/DSCN9983.JPG


http://www.whiteracingproducts.com/images/DSCN9973.JPG




Clearly a case of improper driver on a new motor.
.
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.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Someone had to say it:mrgreen:

Kurt do have any pictures of the intake ( plenum, injector housings, heads) for sale.
Did you ever get flow numbers with the porting?

[flyin ryan]

Very dissapointing, Kurt. Sounds like your set with Marc H. now, good choice :thumbsup:, but...obviously your in FLA. & you know where i am, i'd be willing to help you out with my labor at N/C, if you were willing to ship your stuff up here...i'm not looking for work especially at N/C, LOL, i'm plenty busy but getting the shaft the way you did...i'd try to help you out best i could. Again, sounds like you've got your man...just offering a helping hand, if needed.

[tomtom72]

Tom,

The best way is to look at the main thrust bearing, on the back side, tell me if the radius is a 90 degree angle, or if it is a rolled "bend" The back side as in the part that sits on the lower crankcase girdle and not the face that touches the actual crank.

It looks like an attempt at 90*. In such a small space that angle is hard to make so I think I'm right in saying that I have a "good" set? It certainly does not look even close to be a radius, like what you would see on a crank journal.

Ryan is an example of what this brotherhood is all about! :thumbsup:to ya Ryan!

[Jagdpanzer]

Here are pics of Kurt's thrust bearings on the left and OEM GM on the right:
http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg333/pwasinger/IMG00047-20090401-1341.jpg

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg333/pwasinger/IMG00049-20090401-1342.jpg

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg333/pwasinger/IMG00050-20090401-1343.jpg

[Pete]

Hey Kurt
I'll take all those junk thrust bearings from you. :-D

Lets work out a deal.

Pete

[phrogs]

Man that sucks You definatly are a sweet heart Kurt to not go off the handle on this I cant say what Id be willing to do in this situation.

[Kevin]

now that i think of it I did know that vette docs were using BK...funny how old convos pop into your head at the weirdest times