Another #$%^!@ oil leak!

[tccrab]

$%^&!!!

The weather was unseasonably nice today so I took girlfriend out for a little tire rubber removal. :mrgreen::dancing
When I backed her out of the garage, I noticed a 8 or 9 inch diameter oil stain on the floor.
:mad:
From the position of the puddle on the floor, it's coming from the right front (passenger side) of the motor. Too far forward to be the oil pan, besides couple of months ago I tightened all the oil pan bolts. I'm guessing either the oil pressure sending unit or the oil cooler lines.:redface:
Won't know for sure until I get her up on the jack stands.
Bummer.
The good news is that even though she's got a leak, she can still fry the hides with the best of 'em.
:thumbsup:
There's a little less rubber on the rear tires and a nice pair of extra wide black marks on my favorite street. :rolleyes:

TomC
"Crabs"

[ZZZZZR1]

$%^&!!!

The weather was unseasonably nice today so I took girlfriend out for a little quick tire rubber removal. :mrgreen::dancing
When I backed her out of the garage, I noticed a 8 or 9 inch diameter oil stain on the floor.
:mad:
From the position of the puddle on the floor, it's coming from the right front (passenger side) of the motor. Too far forward to be the oil pan, besides couple of months ago I tightened all the oil pan bolts. I'm guessing either the oil pressure sending unit or the oil cooler lines.:redface:
Won't know until I get her up on the jack stands.
Bummer.
The good news is that even though she's got a leak, she can still fry the hides with the best of 'em. :thumbsup:
There's a little less rubber on the tires and a nice pair of extra wide black marks on my favorite street. :rolleyes:

TomC
"Crabs"

Tom,

I had an oil leak and it was just from a mechanic NOT tightening the bolts on the Cam Cover...

I doubt it is that easy for you, but thought I would put it out there.

Cheers

David

[tccrab]

Just in from the garage, girlfriend is up on jack stands and I sure hope I'm wrong about the source of the leak.
It's definitely from the right front of the motor, not the oil pan.
The drips are coming from under the lower control arm area.
The radiator hose is wet as is the top of the mono spring so the oil is coming from somewhere above. There are two oil sensors, one under the oil filter and another in front and to the left of the oil filter. They both appear to be dry, but honestly, it's really hard to tell. There's no room to get a hand in there, especially the one under the oil filter.
There's crud around the oil cooler lines, a smoking gun for sure. I've wiped away the gunk with paper towels and tomorrow after work I'll fire her up and run her until she's warm. Then I'll clean the area again, if there's a leak there it should be obvious.
So, I guess the question of the hour is, what do I do if it's the oil cooler lines? The lines themselves look OK, I didn't seen any cracks in the rubber. Would it do any good if try tightening the fittings at the block? I guess it could be coming from where the metal ends are crimped on the hoses, if that's the case then I guess I'm screwed. I seem to recall that the oil cooler hoses are "Unobtanium" these days.
Ideas? Anybody got any good tips?

TomC
"Crabs"

[tomtom72]

You are proly correct as the factory TSB on the cooler lines was for isssues at the crimp fittings. If you can find Ron, aka cuisenartvette, he had a line on a place to re-manufacture/rebuild those lines local to him in CA.

Although, it could be that luck is with you and it's just that the connections at the block are loose or one of those senders are leaking?

I would think if you could find a Heavy Equipment repair shop they might have a lead as to making up/ or repairing our lines? I was thinking that someday I would try to make up a set of lines in Aero-quip s/s but the connection at the cooler has me stumped, no threads at that end.:mad:

:cheers:
tom

[cuisinartvette]

Hi Tom.

Orme Bros racing in Northridge Ca.
Phone: (818) 885-1414.
They can make up about any line you can think up, they have done good work for me.

[tccrab]

Hi Tom.

Orme Bros racing in Northridge Ca.
Phone: (818) 885-1414.
They can make up about any line you can think up, they have done good work for me.

Ron:

Thanks for the lead on plumbing. I may need their services if I can't find what I want locally.

A little research popped up this little gem from Tyler Townsley:

Another little know reality is the worthlessness of the oil cooler system. There is a thermostat like device that prevents any meaningfull oil being circulated through the cooler until the oil gets to over 240+ deg. by then it is really too late to help. So if you are looking to address cooling the oil you have to do something about this 'thermostat' first.

Tyler


After reading this tidbit my solution is clear.
Bye Bye oil cooler and stupid $350 pipes!!

TomC
"Crabs"

[rkreigh]

Ron:

Thanks for the lead on plumbing. I may need their services if I can't find what I want locally.

A little research popped up this little gem from Tyler Townsley:

Another little know reality is the worthlessness of the oil cooler system. There is a thermostat like device that prevents any meaningfull oil being circulated through the cooler until the oil gets to over 240+ deg. by then it is really too late to help. So if you are looking to address cooling the oil you have to do something about this 'thermostat' first.

Tyler


After reading this tidbit my solution is clear.
Bye Bye oil cooler and stupid $350 pipes!!

TomC
"Crabs"

I wouldn't remove the oil cooler. it's there for a reason. 240 is hot but not that hot for oil, especially synthetic. while I agree you don't get above those temps often, on the track or under hard use you sure will, and the cooler will do the job, I don't agree that 240 is "too late" oil needs to be 220 to get the water out of it, and synthetic oil will go up towards 280-300 without death rattle. they don't put the oil cooler on for show, get some hoses!!:mrgreen:

[tccrab]

I wouldn't remove the oil cooler. it's there for a reason. 240 is hot but not that hot for oil, especially synthetic. while I agree you don't get above those temps often, on the track or under hard use you sure will, and the cooler will do the job, I don't agree that 240 is "too late" oil needs to be 220 to get the water out of it, and synthetic oil will go up towards 280-300 without death rattle. they don't put the oil cooler on for show, get some hoses!!:mrgreen:

*sigh*
It knew was too good to be true.
Oh well.
Luckily, there is a Massey Ferguson repair shop fairly close by. They said they'd have a look at them and see what they can do.
It doesn't look to be too big a job getting them off. Just drain the oil and unbolt them. Hopefully it won't make too much of a mess.

TomC
"Crabs"

[8upZR1]

If you want to run AN style hoses it really isnt hard. At the oil cooler you can remove the piece that both OEM hoses are attached to. If your hose is trash just cut them off at this connector piece. Then drill & tap the connector for NPT to AN fitting. I think I used 3/8" NPT to -10 AN. 1/2" NPT to -12 AN would have worked but tight. At the filter housing the black steel fittings are 3/4" NPT to -12 AN. Do yourself a favor and replace them with aluminum for weight savings. I ran 3/4" NPT to -10 AN and it was really nice and lots cheaper than dedicated hose from hydraulic supply. It also lets you plumb in an external filter for those who dont like the OEM upside down deal. I never figured that out cause the filter drains everytime you stop the motor only to be refilled on startup. Anyone else find this to be not ideal?

Goodluck with the leak.

[tomtom72]

Actually ya don't have to drain the oil. If ya let Girl Friend sit over night there isn't much oil in the hoses. On mine I just uncoupled both ends and I didn't even need the rags I'd put at both ends. Nothing even came out of the hose, as I think they're pitched toward the cooler. Just don't loose the O-rings at the cooler end as they might be NLA also.:dontknow:

Yea I was watching that thread with Tyler's presentation. Makes me wonder about how effective those aftermarket coolers work, do any of those have T-stats? Actually his presentation made me question the wisdom of our entire coolant/oil cooler system in general. That by-pass chit, and the 240* oil T- stat....If I remember right, Mobil says that the oxidation temp of M1 is somewhere above 375* and it's flash point is like 450*(?). How hot does it get a the bottom end journals?:icon_scra

:cheers:
Tom

[A26B]

Actually ya don't have to drain the oil. If ya let Girl Friend sit over night there isn't much oil in the hoses. On mine I just uncoupled both ends and I didn't even need the rags I'd put at both ends. Nothing even came out of the hose, as I think they're pitched toward the cooler. Just don't loose the O-rings at the cooler end as they might be NLA also.:dontknow:

Yea I was watching that thread with Tyler's presentation. Makes me wonder about how effective those aftermarket coolers work, do any of those have T-stats? Actually his presentation made me question the wisdom of our entire coolant/oil cooler system in general. That by-pass chit, and the 240* oil T- stat....If I remember right, Mobil says that the oxidation temp of M1 is somewhere above 375* and it's flash point is like 450*(?). How hot does it get a the bottom end journals?:icon_scra

:cheers:
Tom

Don't worry about the o-rings, I have them, no biggie. You can go the SS braided with AN fittings & actually save bucks and get a better system at the same time. My original 94 hoses don't leak yet, but if/when they do, I'll be going the SS/AN route. BTW, if you decide to go this route, I wouldn't pay $$ to convert the steel fittings on the oil filter housing to aluminum for just a few ounces of weight savings.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z224/A26B/OilCoolerLines.jpg

[tomtom72]

I guess I should be shot because I like the way that oil cooler hose set looks! That's waaaay classier than the OEM ones.

sweeeet Jerry!:thumbsup:

[tccrab]

I guess I should be shot because I like the way that oil cooler hose set looks! That's waaaay classier than the OEM ones.

sweeeet Jerry!:thumbsup:

Don't get me wrong, I like braided hoses too.
Many years ago I put them on my '67 RS Camaro, and I spent less for the entire set than those 2 hoses cost.
:rolleyes:

Anyway, Girlfriend is still up on jack stands, I haven't done anything stupid yet. Give me time.
:mrgreen:

TomC
"Crabs"

[tccrab]

One month later....

Put my new oil cooler lines on tonight and no leaks!!
I now have to degrease the front of the motor from the oil that leaked before, but that can wait until the weekend.
I took off the offending oil cooler lines and hauled them down to a MF shop.
The MF'ers at the MF shop are MF'ing car guys. :mrgreen:
There's a sand rail dragster with a fuel injected 650HP 460 ford setting in the end bay. And I thought I was crazy.
The MF'ers took a look at them and said...sure...what tractor did these come off of? (MF = Massey Ferguson)
Asked them if they could cobble up something that would do the job and not completely empty out the retirement account.

First thing they did was cut off the old lines at the manifold end and weld on male fittings.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/tccrab/NewFittings.jpg
We then fabbed up a couple of silicon hoses with a spring inside so that we could figure out the exact angles and length of the hose.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/tccrab/MockUp.jpg
As it turns out, the first 90 degree bend from the block makes the hoses want to kink, even the pretty braided ones might kink internally, but you won't see it from the outside.
So what we did was to fab up a couple of 45 degree metal pipes and connect the hose to them to reduce the amount of bend that the flexible hose has to do.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/tccrab/NewPipes.jpg
The top hose is a little tight, but it does fit and it doesn't leak.
The hose and fittings have been pressure tested to 300 PSI, I don't think I'll have a problem with them in this lifetime.

In the end it did take nearly a month as the MF shop is about 20 miles from home and most of the work was done after hours. Some of the fittings had to be special ordered and that caused some delays.
Cost, I knew you'd ask.
Less than $200.
My pocketbook is happy.
:razz:
And I know that this is one problem that I'll never have to deal with again. Ever.

I'm really glad that I'm not a NCRS nut.
I couldn't afford it.

TomC
"Crabs"

[tomtom72]

:cool::thumbsup:Looking good Tom!

I never thought about the inside kinking....food for thought. I wonder if/why the OE replacement and the OE/BG hoses don't kink....or are we deceived? Wonder if it's the wall thickness on the GM stuff that negates the kink?

:pray I hope my GM replacements last.....Tractor sales/repair shops are hard to find around my neck o the woods.

:cheers:
Tom

[FU]

TomC.....I like that hose setup. Sent you a pm.

[tccrab]

TomC.....I like that hose setup. Sent you a pm.
PM received, reply sent.
:mrgreen:

TomC
"Crabs"

[tccrab]

:cool::thumbsup:Looking good Tom!

I never thought about the inside kinking....food for thought. I wonder if/why the OE replacement and the OE/BG hoses don't kink....or are we deceived? Wonder if it's the wall thickness on the GM stuff that negates the kink?

:pray I hope my GM replacements last.....Tractor sales/repair shops are hard to find around my neck o the woods.

:cheers:
Tom

Tom:

The original GM hoses are a formed hose with a very thick side wall.
The aftermarket ones are much thinner material.
The material that we used is steel braided in the wall, much like your radial tires. It's the same stuff that's used for hydraulic lines, you know forklifts, tractors, etc.

TomC
"Crabs"

[limey]

I guess I should be shot because I like the way that oil cooler hose set looks! That's waaaay classier than the OEM ones.

sweeeet Jerry!:thumbsup:

Hey Tom,

Glad you like our hoses, once you pay to have the ends cut off & welded, then send out the adapter to have powder coated, purchase hoses & AN fittings, there is maybe $30.00 profit on something like this.

[tomtom72]

Hey Tom, okay I never thought about fork-lift shops...we have plenty of those around here, not so much on the farm equipment shops...Ya know about the "formed" OE hoses, that's what I thought looking at the hoses "as installed". When I took the new ones out of the box, GM part, they were straight! I remember thinking how the heck am I gonna get these to fit! Oh yea, GM even included new O-rings, how about that! That's why I concluded it has to be the wall thickness + particular construction method that allows them to do the S-bend.

Kurt, that braided set up is what you sell? Chit, if I would have known...they look sweet man! But then I would have had to do the rest of the hoses in the engine room, can't have those and the rest looking all pedestrian in their black rubber.....that wouldn't do at all....

:cheers:
Tom