Ball milling reamer??

[Paul Workman]

OK, you machinists out there...Where would be a good starting place to start looking for a ball shaped milling reamer that is either chased or pulled thru a curved (i.e. intake plenum and IH) (aluminum) runner? Aside from a drill press and assorted air-driven tools, I don't have anything in the way of machining tooling. And, wanting to open up the plenum runners, I'm looking for a tool that a lay person could push or pull thru the runners that would open up the 33mm runners to a 36mm ID, perhaps in stages, if necessary. Sound crazy?

I've done more than a "little" time on a die grinder in my dayz, but looking at the LT5 runners makes me think there must be a better way than a TC ball bit and air-driven die grinder...NO?

I'm thinking of a TC ball cutter that can be attached to a flexible joint so the tool will (more or less) faithfully follow the existing centerline of the runner while opening it up.

Am I making sense, or am I doomed to hours with a grinder?

Also, where would one find a 36mm ball gauge?

TIA,

P.

[lbszr]

Did it the old die grinder way here but salemball.com I think was were I got chrome ones for not much.

[rhipsher]

OK, you machinists out there...Where would be a good starting place to start looking for a ball shaped milling reamer that is either chased or pulled thru a curved (i.e. intake plenum and IH) (aluminum) runner? Aside from a drill press and assorted air-driven tools, I don't have anything in the way of machining tooling. And, wanting to open up the plenum runners, I'm looking for a tool that a lay person could push or pull thru the runners that would open up the 33mm runners to a 36mm ID, perhaps in stages, if necessary. Sound crazy?

I've done more than a "little" time on a die grinder in my dayz, but looking at the LT5 runners makes me think there must be a better way than a TC ball bit and air-driven die grinder...NO?

I'm thinking of a TC ball cutter that can be attached to a flexible joint so the tool will (more or less) faithfully follow the existing centerline of the runner while opening it up.

Am I making sense, or am I doomed to hours with a grinder?

Also, where would one find a 36mm ball gauge?

TIA,

P.

Ball endmills or any endmills are made to be mounted in a ridgid machine because their cutting edges are to course to be held in a die grinder and used by hand. You will gouge the hell out of your work piece and destroy the endmill if you try it so your better off with a die grinder bit. You'll have more control over it.
Here are typical ball endmills. http://www.niagaracutter.com/cobalt/ballend.html
You will be better off using these. They are carbide and will last forever on aluminum. http://www.carbidebur.com/18shank/51series.htm. As far as a chrismas tree type or snake type one that can go around corners, I'm just not sure. Accept for the one Dremel tool makes which is very small. I'm getting ready to port and polish my plenum and injector housings myself. But I'm going to make the cnc mill do most of the work. I will probably have to do some finish grinding in areas where the cnc won't be able to reach. Now your other choice is a boring head where you can adjust the size of the hole you want to bore within .0001 of and inch. But again they are made to be mounted in a manual milling machine. Not a flimsy drill press. They don't make them for a drill press. I know this is allot to obsorb. But this is what I do for a living 50 hours a week. For the past 19 years. Here is what I do at work. If you've never seen it before it will blow your mind. And you will understand why us cnc programmers can make $100,000 a year. And thats in a non union shop. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LCaRqQ8Qf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsmiIeAkE-o

[IowaZR-1]

You might want to look into extrude honing.
http://www.gethoned.com/process.html

[flyin ryan]

You might want to look into extrude honing.
http://www.gethoned.com/process.html
No, you wouldn't:cool:

[Jeffvette]

No, you wouldn't:cool:


It's garbage, doesn't remove enough material.

[XfireZ51]

Sorry Paul! I used a die grinder from Powerhouse
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PH&Product_Code=BKIT&Category_Code=Burrs

I used the double fluted bits that don't gouge as much. More control.
Lgaff is still using one of my bits for doing the plenums he's porting.
Well worth the money, IMO. :thumbsup:
Go ahead. Pull out the credit card. Resistance is futile :sign10:

[billybaloneey]

Also, where would one find a 36mm ball gauge?

TIA,

P.

If someone PM's you with a source for a metallic 36m ball gauge, please share it with me.

I have found the next best thing to a 36mm metallic ball guage...on eBay. Just do a search for "36 mm" or "36mm" and you get several results. They are selling 36mm polished stone balls...and they are not all that expensive. Of course extra care would have to be used to back one out if it got stuck in a runner while testing your material removal progress.

While visiting Marc Haibeck's shop a while back, at his porting and polishing workstation/table, he was proud and quick to show me the 36mm metal ball guage he used. I didn't think to ask him where he got it :dontknow:

[XfireZ51]

To get started I used a 36 mm foosball.

[Polo-1]

http://zr1netregistry.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4145&highlight=porting

http://zr1netregistry.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4429&highlight=porting

:wave:

[cuisinartvette]

Have a 36, 37 and 38mm chrome ball. Want to say I got them from McMaster, Ill double check. Ordered them with a freind years ago.

On the bit you need a way to control where it cuts, dragging ot through wont work. I use a good ol fashioned grinder and an assortment of carbides.

[IowaZR-1]

You might want to look into extrude honing.
http://www.gethoned.com/process.html
I was wrong after seeing several of the threads posted.....die grinding/polishing by an experienced grinder is the only way to go.:worship:

[Polo-1]

I think it needs to be ground out by hand, then if you have the money to spend.... ex honing would be icing on the cake.

[flyin ryan]

die grinding/polishing by an experienced grinder is the only way to go.:worship:you said it, 100%. it's funny, the people i deal with & talk to daily in the higher end porting world is in fact rather small, the upper echelon of porters in North America ALL have the same opinion of the Extrude Hone process...it's a joke. i will say, on the outside, to people who are not semi experianced it does seem like it's a GREAT idea...it's like saying a bigger port will flow more air, while it MAY, that doesn't mean it will accelerate hard or quick, more often than not it will be the opposite...slow moving lazy air speed. i tell people all the time...you want the smallest port that moves the most/fastest mixture...not JUST air, MIXTURE!, Fuel & Air. i wish i could lay out some quick & easy mathematical equations or some simple guidlines to help, but there simply aren't any. it's a complex issue, which is why so many people have trouble. i'll lay out what i consider the five most important variables used to tune the induction system:
1. Average velocity;
2. Individual instantaneous velocities;
3. Shape/design (maximize a homogenous velocity profile over the ENTIRE port & at the same time promote efficient flow);
4. Rate of velocity change; & last
5. Airflow;
If a person follows these five variables you'll soon find out the most important rules of designing an induction system are: Velocity, Velocity, Shape, Velocity &, finally, Airflow.
I try to keep my engine building arm out of this forum, for the most part, but i hate seeing people going down the wrong road, so i apologize for partially stealing this thread. it wasn't intended. i could have jumped in many times in the past but i just let it go...can't educate everybody:dontknow:. i still don't know why some people think they can port out of the blue just by picking up a die-grinder? i call them carbide cowboys:cool:. you know what they say...a little bit of knowledge is dangerous...so true. one last thing...i PORT, not polish! i make the intake tract as rough as possible, the ONLY time i will lightly polish is on the exhaust port side & the only reason for that is so the carbon will have a harder time sticking to the port walls & building up over time on a street driven engine. absolutly nothing to do with so called flow. i've said enough:sign10:

[tpepmeie]

1. Average velocity;
2. Individual instantaneous velocities;
3. Shape/design (maximize a homogenous velocity profile over the ENTIRE port & at the same time promote efficient flow);
4. Rate of velocity change; & last
5. Airflow;


Haven't I read that exact same quote/order of things from Darin Morgan over on SpeedTalk? I won't say who's doing my induction system, but I can assure you that he is following this very good advice.:thumbsup:

According to this expert, The worst spots on the LT5 induction tract are the head-to-housing interface, and the too large bowl areas beneath the valves. The head-to-housing area is troublesome in that to make the air follow the awkward turn, the cross-section area of the port has to be slightly larger than optimal. I will say, overall, these heads will still be smaller & faster than current thinking in LT5 port work. Cant wait to get them back!

Todd

[flyin ryan]

Like i said the porting world is small. funny you should mention Darin though, we talk every few days. all the higher end guys' thinking runs along the same lines. Tom Slawko, Ron's, Carl Foltz, Curtis Boggs etc. sounds like you've got a good guy doing your stuff, which is good to see. seems like there is a bubble around the LT-5 world. that's why i try to stay out of these type discussions on here, i don't want to step on any toes, so to speak. i always tell guys, an engine doesn't know what name is on the valve cover or in this case a cam cover. treat each port to itself & follow proper principles & techniques, things will work out for themselves. don't do something just because so & so did it & you are led to believe it is correct. i never 'assume' anything.

[tpepmeie]

I found the reference. Here is a very good article by Darin on the subject.
http://www.competitionplus.com/2006_04/cylinder_heads.html

One of those guys you mentioned is taking my LT5 heads to the next level! A long R&D project, which hopefully is nearing completion.

[Jagdpanzer]

I found the reference. Here is a very good article by Darin on the subject.
http://www.competitionplus.com/2006_04/cylinder_heads.html

One of those guys you mentioned is taking my LT5 heads to the next level! A long R&D project, which hopefully is nearing completion.

tpepmeie:
How long before you will have your new engine running?

[XfireZ51]

FR,

Given that our manifolds are dry, how does that change the principles of
porting? Or does it? What's your view on direct injection and any
modification it suggests for porting?

[LGAFF]

i still don't know why some people think they can port out of the blue just by picking up a die-grinder? i call them carbide cowboys:cool:. you know what they say...a little bit of knowledge is dangerous...so true. one last thing...i PORT, not polish! i make the intake tract as rough as possible, the ONLY time i will lightly polish is on the exhaust port side & the only reason for that is so the carbon will have a harder time sticking to the port walls & building up over time on a street driven engine. absolutly nothing to do with so called flow. i've said enough:sign10:


I did my own intake and got 391 rwhp without even tunng the car yet, I'm not a pro but I am $1200-$2400 richer than if I sent it out. I also did an intake which I sold to Hans(CCMANO) and will be interested how his car does with the port job.....have another intake that I bought and am working on it now. There is a learning curve with it but as with anything to me there is a diminishing return on everything......how much extra time, cash etc to pick up a few more ponies.... I was also able to recreate the smooth finish of the extrude hone with lots of WD40 and 800, 1000, 1200 grit paper but what is it really worth?????? I did it on my intake but would not do it again.

LGAFF
"carbide cowboy":mrgreen:
LT-5 hack:icon_scra
92 ZR1
#234

[flyin ryan]

One of those guys you mentioned is taking my LT5 heads to the next level! A long R&D project, which hopefully is nearing completion.Curtis will do a good job for you. anything worthwhile takes time.

[flyin ryan]

FR,

Given that our manifolds are dry, how does that change the principles of
porting? Or does it? What's your view on direct injection and any
modification it suggests for porting?No it really doesn't change anything. when we say 'Dry', it only starts out that way. on a running engine nothing is dry, it's like a tornado inside the intake. you want the intake tract as rough as possible so fuel won't stick to it. if it's rough air can get behind the sticking fuel & peel it off the walls. look at glass, water crawls off it, right? thats because it has TOO much friction. guys think smooth is the way to go & everything will slide off, well it's the opposite. glass, for example, has like 100% friction coeficiant, no good for an intake. i'll give you another one. remember the old blue Penske Trans-Am cars? one day the Tech guys were all over Penske's car because he showed up with a vinyl roof. acid dipping was a big thing to cheat back then & Tech thought his roof was paper thin & he was trying to hide it. truth was that the vinyl roof created tiny vorticies, at speed, & helped deter the boundry layer that builds with speed. the car was 'slicker' with the vinyl roof than anything else going. rumor was Roger, always one step ahead, would take wax/polish from a company he was involved with & go up & down pit lane giving out the stuff to 'Promote' the wax. he was only trying to slow them down, guys a smart dude. now, as it turns out the gains we are talking about are miniscule but nobody knew that in the 60's. they were chasing whatever they could.

[flyin ryan]

I did my own intake and got 391 rwhp without even tunng the car yet, I'm not a pro but I am $1200-$2400 richer than if I sent it out. I also did an intake which I sold to Hans(CCMANO) and will be interested how his car does with the port job.....have another intake that I bought and am working on it now. There is a learning curve with it but as with anything to me there is a diminishing return on everything......how much extra time, cash etc to pick up a few more ponies.... I was also able to recreate the smooth finish of the extrude hone with lots of WD40 and 800, 1000, 1200 grit paper but what is it really worth?????? I did it on my intake but would not do it again.

LGAFF
"carbide cowboy":mrgreen:
LT-5 hack:icon_scra
92 ZR1
#234don't take it personally Lee, i don't see you on here telling everyone how to do this or that. that's what i'm not a fan of. guys doing/trying things on their own is what it's all about, to me. gotta start somewhere. the guys that do one set of heads & are pros all of a sudden:rolleyes:.

[flyin ryan]

I found the reference. Here is a very good article by Darin on the subject.
http://www.competitionplus.com/2006_04/cylinder_heads.html

That's a good article, never seen that one before. Darin's no dummy. hope everyone on here takes a peak at it.

[-=Jeff=-]

I did the 'Poor Man's" port job..

I bought later model IH and Plenum and bolted them on..

I Will be installing Headers in the spring and maybe cats and then just enjoy the car..

[LGAFF]

Just joking around Ryan, I started with a friggin dremel.....then finally after about 50hrs of work moved to the grinder



LGAFF
92 ZR1
#234

[flyin ryan]

Just joking around Ryan, I started with a friggin dremel.....then finally after about 50hrs of work moved to the grinder



LGAFF
92 ZR1
#234i'm shocked the dremel lasted 5 Hrs., let alone 50:sign10:. i had one years ago, honestly i don't think it lasted 50 minutes:rolleyes:, junk:dontknow:. first & last one i ever owned.

[XfireZ51]

I used the Extrude Hone process on my 84 Xfire. Using a Xfire manifold(and if you've ever worked on one you know what the issues are), the motor made close to 300 rwhp and 340rwtq. That's about 75hp more than what GM rated the stock motor at the crank. Nothing was done to increase the x-section of the runner itself. The manifold was port matched(by me) to the TFS 23d heads. It ran a consistent ~105mph trap. Wasn't cheap and I'm not here to be an ad for EH. However, I thought I would discuss a few notions about EH based on my experience with it and expressing my opinion about it. If I understand FR and the others, velocity is a significant contributor to making power. On the Xfire, that was important not just in the runners but even through the TB venturi. The Xfire is a wet manifold ( fuel travels in suspension in the air and through the runners). Its also important to have the air velocity high in order to "shear" the fuel from the TB venturi walls (2.13" dia.) where the injector would spray it. The higher the velocity, the better the atomization, the less likely fuel would fall out of suspension. Fuel falling out of suspension is an issue with the path the A/F mixture travelled thru Xfire manifold from the TB to the head/manifold interface. So anything you could do to maintain velocity was a plus. EH isn't a mirror finish and it isn't something you replicate with sanding rolls. The aluminum (in the case of my manifold) appeared as if it was "re-flowed". The value of EH is how the micro abrasion contours all 4 walls of the runners. Runner walls end up with "strakes" that run longitudinally. These act in much the same way airfoils act on the wing of a jet. They direct the airflow minimizing turbulence which would otherwise rob a runner of its "efficiency" or capacity to move air. You can increase capacity in a pipe by either increasing cross section or velocity. Again, IMO, EH allowed more air to move through the same x-section than would normally be possible. And it did this by enhancing the velocity.
I do not believe EH is a substitute for a porting job that increases overall capacity.

[Locobob]

There really aren't any shortcuts unless you have access to a CNC machine and programming.

From my experience doing LT-5 intakes here are a few basics:

Always start with the port match between the plenum and injector housings. This will help guide you as to where to remove material. On every single one I've done the ports have been skewed to one side. To do a good job you'll need positive alignment. I usually use aluminum tubing to tighten the tolerances of the four corner bolts to accomplish this, I have also on occasion drilled holes for alignment pins.

When you have a choice remove material from the inside radius of a curve rather than the outside radius. You want to straighten out the curves as much as possible.

Either maintain a constant port diameter or slowly neck down the ports toward the heads - like a moderate funnel. You don't want enlarged areas downstream creating dead spots - you want to keep air velocity up. I prefer the funnel design as LT-5's seem to respond well to some extra air volume in the plenum and partway into the injector housings.

Be careful working around the gasket surfaces, it's easy to get a bit too much angle on your tool and/or gouge the metal with a burr.

1in wide by 1/2in tall course grit drum sanders work very well for material removal and help keep port shape consistent. I also make extensive use of a 1in diameter ball burr. I find alternating between the two works best. Flap wheels are pretty much a finishing tool, if you rely on them for material removal you'll make slow progress and spend a lot more.

[USAFPILOT]

I heard you wanted a rough intake to cause turbulence in the intake in order to atomize the fuel etc. But as far as a rough surface being better for aero I am not so sure. None of the 737's I've ever piloted had anything other than smooth surfaces. On the wing you dont want boundary layer separation because you would lose lift, but all along the fuselage it would be a good idea right, to reduce parasitic drag/ save fuel etc. Adding vinyl would increase weight and negate any positive aspects of the surface, but if it was a good idea, the aluminum skin could be manufactured in such a way, just like the inside of the plenum. They are not. You want it smoooooooth. That nascar guy probably didn't help himself much.

[cuisinartvette]

Only thing I dont care for with EH is you cant control where and how much material is removed, (everything is just going to be "bigger") and in my hackster opinion thats real crucial to how that motor is going to want to act.
I call it lazy mans porting but to each his own.

[A26B]

There's another element to porting that should also be considered, which is proper port location. Unless you want to be hand cutting new gaskets, the ports should be centered to OEM dimensions at the interfaces when they are ported, either by a template or machine boring to correct specs. Extrude honing just goes wherever the port(s) are originally, core shift & all.

I agree completely with Locobob's comments about core shift being prevalent and also his doweling for alignment. On the 405hp engines, GM installed alignment sleeves on the outer inj hsng/head bolt positions to establish positive alignment. Marc Haibeck installs the dowel sleeves on the 375 hp engines when he ports. Putting dowels on the plenum/inj hsng is just as important.

Even still, unless the port work is aligned dimensionally correct, it's a toss-up even when you buy gaskets for ported engines , whether they will not overlap the port somewhere and require trimming. Not a big deal but just something that will have to be done every time you change out plenum gaskets.