Baer brakes = INCREDIBLE stopping power!

[Aurora40]

In fact, they work so well, I can't move the car out of the garage! Woohoo!

I got their 6-piston kit that uses the stock rotors and C5 pads. As they aren't a floating caliper, you have to shim them to get them centered. I have a fairly cheap caliper (the measuring device) but figured it would work ok, or at least get it close. However, I could have had the best one in the world, it wouldn't matter.

The directions say to tighten it all up slightly, but not hard because you'll have to take it apart. So I shim it up 'til the gauge says they are centered. But when you finally torque it down, the shims compress a lot more than they had been. It's off by a visually obvious amount now. The short side still has enough room for the pad to withdraw, but not much more than that.

Really it's irrelevant though, as I put on every shim they included. So there's not much else I can do anyway. That's 1/8" of shim. Considering the bracket is specifically for the C4, I'm a little surprised it needs that much (and more).

For some reason once the brake line is hooked up, the pistons want to just slowly extend. So once I got the caliper on once, I couldn't get it off again. I had to loosen the banjo bolt which, considering the copper washers are a one-time-use thing, is probably a bad idea. Then I pressed the pistons back by hand.

Now it's all on the car, and I thought I could at least take it around the neighborhood to make sure the pedal felt firm, the brakes worked, etc. But I can't move the car out of the garage. They are either clamping too hard, or it's because the pad surface is larger and so it's on a rotor area that isn't polished/smooth.

To be fair, it perhaps would go smoother if I had new rotors as there wouldn't be any rough/rusty areas on it. I imagine it would make the spacing measurements more accurate too, since the rotor surface on the edge may not be even all the way around anymore.

Sometimes I wonder if God made me interested in cars as some kind of a practical joke...

[Aurora40]

FYI, here's it installed:

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/7312/dsc00345ev7.jpg

I'm talking with Baer, it's possible maybe the bracket is wrong? They said you shouldn't need more than about one shim. With no shims though, it didn't even clear the rotor without pads.

I guess really I blame myself. I seem to be too dumb to ever learn. Most everything I bought for my '87 'vette did little to nothing to make it faster, better, etc. Mostly it was stuff that both installed and performed poorly. I should just leave this thing alone.

I pretty much know, these will do nothing to improve a single stop. I can lock the brakes with the stock stuff, so you can't do any better than that. In fact these will probably make the front bias worse and lengthen a panic stop. The only possible gain is some pedal "feel" but really who cares as long as pushing the pedal stops the car? But $1000 for 6-piston brakes, how can you pass that up? Apparently I can't... :???:

[karterdon]

where did you find the rudsty brake rotors??? I would highly reccomend that you replace them - Even if you use stock. Other wise you might have the worst case of brake squeel you can imagine. The rust will burn into the rotor.

Good luck

[902066]

$1000.00 for that set up WAS to good to pass up. I have faith you will get it worked out. Dont be so hard on yourself.

[HIZNHRZ]

For what it's worth, you are being way too hard on yourself. The brakes look like they were a good buy for a grand. You've got a beautiful, well cared for Z with all the right mods. You've also got the patience and knowhow to do most of the work yourself.

You've done what I would do and that's call Bear and talk to someone. Once you get to the right person you'll certainly drive to a solution. You're a great asset to the ZR1 botherhood and especially the MD/VA area. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.

By the way, your title is great considering the circumstances. You also know how to laugh at yourself sometimes!

Scott

[Aurora40]

Yeah, it's just frustrating. Nothing is ever easy. Seems like it should have been a lot simpler. And of course now I can't drive my car. I will probably put the stock brakes back on this weekend.

Karterdon, that is what rotors look like when they get wet. I washed the wheels prior to messing with it, and the rotors will get surface rust until you drive it a bit and the pads scuff it off. While new rotors would look better, after a few months they'll look just like the ones that are on there.

[GOLDCYLON]

Yeah, it's just frustrating. Nothing is ever easy. Seems like it should have been a lot simpler. And of course now I can't drive my car. I will probably put the stock brakes back on this weekend.

Karterdon, that is what rotors look like when they get wet. I washed the wheels prior to messing with it, and the rotors will get surface rust until you drive it a bit and the pads scuff it off. While new rotors would look better, after a few months they'll look just like the ones that are on there.

Bob the rust on the rotors have nothing to do with the problem you are experiencing. The big problem is that its a big hunking caliper and its gotta be finesed and shimed correctly. I cant beleive the caliper is not made to float!!! As to a rotor replacement I suggest the Baer Eradispeeds that are Zinc washed with Pced Aluminum Hats and stainless hardware. Now back to the fitment issue. Id talk to Jeffvette to see if he has any ideas. I cant believe nobody has "really" chimed in to help with hey Ive been there and I did this. If I had these I would be able to give you some pointers but curently I would be in the same boat as you im only running GS calipers. A lot of folks out there with some interesting combinations Brembo, Baers, Wildwood, Moveit and C5 setups come on folks give Bob a hand. Keep at it!! Can it be the brackets are angled incorrectly? Post some photos of WTF is going on maybe that might get the crew here to attempt to figure out waht is going on. Daryll

[Jeffvette]

Bob, send or post high quality pictures of how it is mounted, then remove the caliper and send pictures of the adapter bracket (if there is one). Also, when you have the wheel removed and doing pictures, make sure you have two lug nuts tightened down to hold the rotor in the proper position.

[Aurora40]

There are no lugs on because I was just shooting pictures. However, the rotor is frozen to the hub so it's unnecessary. When there were no pads and I was measuring, I spun the hub/rotor just to ensure the clearances remained the same.

Here's some pictures:

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1774/dsc00346hu1.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00346hu1.jpg)

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/4323/dsc00347tf0.th.jpg (http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00347tf0.jpg)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/305/dsc00350fe1.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00350fe1.jpg)

Don't spend a lot of time though. I'll wait to see what Baer says. Mostly I just wanted to vent my frustration...

[Jeffvette]

Based upon this image, you need no shims, or at least less shims. The rotor is cocked to the outboard side.

http://www.pnwzr1.com/images/Baer_Caliper.jpg

[Aurora40]

If you mean the caliper is pushing the rotor out, I can only assure you the rotor is frozen on the hub and not moving back and forth.

[GOLDCYLON]

No both are canted at an angle. The rotor and the caliper. Look at the space on the sides of the caliper and yes the rotor is also canted.

[Jeffvette]

If you mean the caliper is pushing the rotor out, I can only assure you the rotor is frozen on the hub and not moving back and forth.

You need to get the rotor off and clean the hub. If the rotor is frozen in that position, you would have had an issue with the stock system as well.

[Jeffvette]

Also, pull the caliper off and get me another shot from straight overhead (with the bracket installed).

[Aurora40]

You need to get the rotor off and clean the hub. If the rotor is frozen in that position, you would have had an issue with the stock system as well.
This is what the Baer guy said too. I'll do that this weekend. Though the rotor spins perfectly true, it doesn't wobble around. With the caliper and no pads mounted, I spun it to recheck the clearances and it was always the same (within the accuracy of my ability to measure).

Stock I never had any issues like vibration or pulsing or anything. The pads haven't worn unevenly.

Hopefully cleaning it up will fix it. Though the way the rotor is on there, I may have to replace the whole car with it...

[Jeffvette]

Clean it up, use two lug nuts to secure the rotor, then go through all the mounting steps.

[Aurora40]

So I got the rotor off. Then I cleaned the hub up and coated it with antisieze. It had a rust haze but wasn't covered with scale or anything. I also brushed the rotor's backside, though that really won't come very clean. But it's a smooth hard surface.

I mounted the rotor, secured it with three lug nuts, and tightened them down. I put the bracket on with the same number of spacers, and mounted the caliper with no line connected and no pads. I ended up removing a .015" shim to get it centered. All looked good (though it still had 4 shims totalling .11") so I torqued the bracket to spec.

So I put the pads in and remounted the caliper to the bracket. All still looked good visually, though I can't measure at that point as the pads are in the way. I torqued the caliper to spec.

Then I hooked up the brake line, and it all goes to crap. The middle piston right behind the brake line fitting gets pushed out. Now the caliper has way more clearance on the backside than the front. Either it is moving the rotor in spite of 3 lugs holding it down, or it is flexing the bracket and/or its mounts. To ensure the rotor wasn't being pushed, I removed the three lugs, mounted a tire, and torqued it to 100 lb-ft. You can't see the caliper too well, but I could clearly see the gap in the front part hadn't changed. So either the piston pushes so damn hard that torquing the wheel won't seat the rotor (which would have come unseat in spite of three lug nuts), or the caliper is flexed back.

Just to see if it will all magically seat itself, I drive the car up and down the block. The brake is clearly dragging hard as I have to use a lot of gas and clutch to move the car. And this is only one Baer caliper mounted (and presumably full of some air as I have not even bled it).

With both calipers mounted and bled, it's no wonder I could not move the car.

I have to think spacing the bracket out with 4 shims is not doing anything good for its rigidity. My guess is the caliper is pushing back, not the rotor pushing. Just to be sure, since I obviously won't be leaving the car like this, I will tighten up lugs on the rotor before I remove the Baer caliper. If in fact the rotor has moved, there should be slack in the lugs once I get the caliper off. Then I will test the rigidity of the calipers by driving over them several times... http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/images/smilies/willy_nilly.gif

[Aurora40]

Just to be sure, since I obviously won't be leaving the car like this, I will tighten up lugs on the rotor before I remove the Baer caliper. If in fact the rotor has moved, there should be slack in the lugs once I get the caliper off.
FYI, so I did this. With the wheel off, the rotor was pushed out more. It tightened down some, but even at that the caliper was still offset too much from the rotor. I removed the caliper, and the rotor was not loose. I tried to tighten the lugs more but they had no slack.

I really don't think you are supposed to use more than one shim with this thing...

[HIZNHRZ]

Bob, how is the incredible stopper power of your brakes? Any progress?

[GOLDCYLON]

Send them back sounds like you are the test market.

[Aurora40]

I have not heard back from Baer. I will call them today. I was curious if anyone else had tried them yet, as at one point the tech guy was like "we've shipped many of these and haven't heard of any problems". No responses on CF. I wonder if anyone else has tried installing them yet?

[GOLDCYLON]

I have not heard back from Baer. I will call them today. I was curious if anyone else had tried them yet, as at one point the tech guy was like "we've shipped many of these and haven't heard of any problems". No responses on CF. I wonder if anyone else has tried installing them yet?


According to Jeffvette your model is "Brand New" and just replaced a particular model

To quote one of my favorite Star Trek Series I can safely say that YOU Bob are boldly going.........

[tf95ZR1]

Are these the 6p's ? I ordered a set weeks ago but haven't received them
yet. I'll let you know..........
I wonder if you got a bum set and should send them back and get another set.

Oops, just saw the original post and I think these are the same 6p's that I ordered.

[A26B]

Bob,

I re-read this thread & it sounds like the caliper centers OK & the rotor turns freely with the pads in. The trouble starts when you connect the brake line & the center, inboard piston extends, pressing the inboard pad tightly against the rotor & "warping" the caliper & bracket, creating the large gap between the inboard side of the rotor & caliper as pictured.

You also said you had to remove the brake line banjo fitting bolt to get it to retract. I cannot imagine any way for hydraulic pressure to be involved, especially with air in the caliper & the pedal not being pressed. Simply opening the brake caliper bleeder would eliminate this possibility. As such, the only situation I can come up with is the brake line bolt is too long & causing the center inboard piston to extend. (I think you did say in post #17 that the bolt was right behind the center inboard piston)

Can you check the caliper with all pistons fully retracted to see if there is anything directly behind the bolt hole & then see how much bolt is extending through the brake line fitting before it is installed?

Jerry

[Jeffvette]

As such, the only situation I can come up with is the brake line bolt is too long & causing the center inboard piston to extend. (I think you did say in post #17 that the bolt was right behind the center inboard piston)

Can you check the caliper with all pistons fully retracted to see if there is anything directly behind the bolt hole & then see how much bolt is extending through the brake line fitting before it is installed?

Jerry

Jerry, even though I have not seen the 6P in person (and after hearing this not sure I care to) no brake caliper that I have ever come across that is made in the past ten years, has the bolt just directly going blind into the passage. It always tapers down to a funnel. It would be impossible to push the bolt that far in.

It would be curious to put the pistons back in all the way, and just bolt up the brake line and see what the pistons do.

[A26B]

Jerry, even though I have not seen the 6P in person (and after hearing this not sure I care to) no brake caliper that I have ever come across that is made in the past ten years, has the bolt just directly going blind into the passage. It always tapers down to a funnel. It would be impossible to push the bolt that far in.

It would be curious to put the pistons back in all the way, and just bolt up the brake line and see what the pistons do.

I'm with you Jeff..... I haven't seen the caliper either. Just seems that everything is fine up to that point of the install. SImply bolting the line to the caliper should not cause the piston to move out, especially not that much, but it does. Must be related somehow. Definitely interested in the ultimate cause.

Jerry

[Aurora40]

Hey Jerry, opening the bleeder didn't help. I'll take a look at the back of the caliper just to see, after all they are just laying there in the garage. As far as I know though, it's the banjo bolt that came with the car.

Jeff, basically the middle piston will push out. It doesn't push out to max extension though. Like when removing the caliper. I'd loosen the bolt, push the pad in, and take the caliper off. Then I'd tighten the bolt so that I wasn't making more of a mess, and the piston would slowly push out and stop. I'd have to loosen the bolt and press it in to put the caliper back on again.

[A26B]

If opening the bleeder doesn't relieve the pressure on the piston, like it does when you loosen the banjo bolt, then either the bleeder or the caliper is defective. The fact that only the center piston on the inboard side moves, is a really messed up situation. All 6 pistons are supposed to be hydraulically connected. I haven't got a clue as to why the piston moves out slowly and has enough force to warp the caliper away from the rotor, but the problem is, in my mind, definitely hydraulic related, not mechanical & not an external machining error.

[Aurora40]

So I talked to the guy from Baer again. He said the banjo bolt could be too long, apparently if it were long enough it can screw in and hit the piston. I'm not sure that's necessarily what is happening, as it slowly extends out, not as you tighten the bolt. But perhaps it is too long for fluid to flow properly?

He also said it should still be rigid with that amount of shimming, though also that the amount of shimming I've needed is not normal for their systems. Really if you look at the stock caliper mounting bracket, there's no way that thing could work if the spindle could have 1/8" or more of variance. The stock caliper mounting bracket is fairly close to the rotor on both sides.

Anyway, he's gonna check on the banjo bolt, and we'll see.

Jerry, fwiw, the bleeder valve does work to bleed the brakes, in that fluid comes out when you apply the pedal.

[Aurora40]

Yup, the bolts are too long. You can see scoring/marring on the back of the piston through the bolt hole. Also you can just tell from how short the thread is and how freaking long the stock bolt is that there's no way that thing could fit.

Baer is sending me some shorter banjo bolts, and hopefully it'll be all well after that. I'll try to toss 'em on this weekend, but we'll see...

[Jeffvette]

Pics of hole?

[Aurora40]

Pics of hole?
Heheh, you really opened the door with that one!

I assume this is the hole you wanted to see:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3752/dsc00364ab5.th.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00364ab5.jpg)

[HIZNHRZ]

Heheh, you really opened the door with that one!

I had similar thoughts but decided not to touch that one.:mrgreen:

[Aurora40]

The brakes are on. I bled them with a mity vac, and they are extremely soft. I'll have my wife step on the pedal and bleed them properly this weekend. Hopefully that will fix that.

Here's the banjo bolt Baer sent me compared to the OEM one:
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/2893/dsc00365bt9.th.jpg (http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00365bt9.jpg)

And here they are installed:
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/9374/dsc00368nv3.th.jpg (http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00368nv3.jpg)

A few lessons learned, of course don't do it without the right bolts. But also, don't use brake cleaner on these things. I got some non-chlorinated brake cleaner, the newer less earth killing ones. Mostly xylene, which is a paint thinner. I had some 3M stuff and some Valvoline stuff. The Valvoline stuff noticeably dulled and streaked the finish on the caliper. I'm not too concerned, I'd have preferred a rough aluminum finish like stock. But someone buying red ones or something might be a bit unhappy to find that out the hard way.

[xlr8nflorida]

Sorry, just saw this thread or I would have chimed in. I have the Baer 6 piston 6S calipers on my ZR-1 and they are great. It did take some time to get them fitted though.

[Jagdpanzer]

Looking real sharp Bob, the hard work and perseverance certainly paid off. Please give us a report on how well they perform.
You are real fortunate to have a wife who doesn't mind helping out when you run short of appendages when wrenching on the Z. I'm not so lucky, had to go out and get a set of speed bleeders instead.

[GOLDCYLON]

[quote=Aurora40;46018]I'll have my wife step on the pedal and bleed them properly this weekend. \[quote]


And......... ;)