The dreaded water pump failure and a weekend project [Archive]

GOLDCYLON

08-29-2008, 12:31 AM

So wednesday night in the garage I get ready to install a headlight bucket clip I lost to finally finish that job correctly (I was installing HELLAs last weekend when I heard a clip fall) Never found that little bugger lol. Ive also been having a lot of cooling problems lately. In 6th gear on the freeway no problems but if I get caught in traffic here comes almost 260!!! Underneath the left wheel is a puddle. Damit looks and feels like Glycol. Maybe im lucky and its a hose nah sure enough she leaking centerline on the car after running it for a few minutes. Well I have a waterpump in my parts crib a new radiator and a new set of Black Samcos and clamps. I was going to wait until fall/winter do do this job sure enough it turns out to be an Arizona summer garage special. Well Im lucky enough to have a four day weekend Jeffvette suggested to make it a good project job so I guess my dance card is full for the weekend. After work tonight my goal was to remove the radiator.. What a bear of a job. Those three small screws on each side of the upper radiator shroud slowed me down a bit. A pair of metal shears were my best friend to cut the corner off the shroud to get around the oil cooler lines and AC lines. And that short little thermostat hosing hose to remove was pure PITA as well. So Phase I is done. See anything that might be causing any heating issues on my 91?

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/rad1.JPG

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/rad2.JPG

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/rad3.JPG

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/rad4.JPG

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/rad5.JPG

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/rad6.JPG

Tomorrow I face the waterpump. I ordered a new set of SPAL fans from MidAmerica a few weeks ago. So I called them today to find out the status on them. I was notified that "oh they are being dropped shipped from the Manufactuer due date 1 Oct. What a pisser and the boneheads did not even tell me. AZZHATS!!! Would have been nice to have them as promised to hit this cooling problem from all sides. It was 102 in the shade of the garage but in reflection I remember when I didnt even have a Garage. GC

cuisinartvette

08-29-2008, 12:34 AM

Its really not bad man, Id rather change the water pump that mess with pulling the fans and radiator. Just clean everything off real well so you can see what bolts go where (they are different), youll be done in no time.

GOLDCYLON

08-29-2008, 12:50 AM

Paul Workman

08-29-2008, 06:01 AM

Next to a heater core, a WP is a piece o' cake!

When you do the pump, Marc gave me a tip that worked quite well: Make a bold holder! There are (I forget exactly) about 14(?) bolts of three different lengths, and it is easy to mix them up and get the wrong ones in the holes.

He said to lay the gasket on a piece of plywood and with a marker trace it and drill holes in the wood according to the gasket and then stick the bolts in the appropriate holes as you remove the pump. It worked great!

One thing tho...do NOT use an air ratchet on the lower left side of the pump:rolleyes: ...It's an easy way to turn a two hour job into a 6+ hour job...Don't ask!

Good luck!

P.

-=Jeff=-

08-29-2008, 08:08 AM

GC,

for that short lower hose, you could unbolt the T-Stat housing fromt he frame and it will make it MUCH Easier to install.

Also when you do the hoses, there will be coolant otn eh other hose into the T-Stat housing..

I found out the hard way

tomtom72

08-29-2008, 08:16 AM

So the worst of this job is behind me????;)

Yes! Getting into the cooling stack is the worse part of your total cooling project Daryl. You the man! :thumbsup: I cheated & pulled the oil lines & never put those 7mm side bolts back in the shroud....:o

Make the screen that is listed in the how to section over at the netreg site and you'll not have to worry about having a forest in the stack again.;)

I got a Q for ya, those spail fans are better than the updated ones that GM has for our cars? Why does your replacement rad have trans cooler lines? Sorry two Q's for ya....:redface:

Thanks for passing on the Mr. Haibeck tip on the bolts' trick!:worship:

Tom

-=Jeff=-

08-29-2008, 08:23 AM

Why does your replacement rad have trans cooler lines?

As far as I know that was the only one GM Still made as a replacement.. since it will work on BOTH Auto and manual it was one less PN for Gm to maintain.

less PN less cost on inventory..

Not sure how accurate my thought is but makes sense

tomtom72

08-29-2008, 09:15 AM

-=Jeff=- your answer makes sense, from GM's point of view. I guess I'll be seeing Ron Davis when I need to replace my OE rad.....I hate to give the space over to something I can't use unless I can figure a way to pump the zf's fluid thru there .....hummmmm....proly a very dumb idea!:sign10:

GOLDCYLON

08-29-2008, 12:21 PM

Hello folks thanks for the kind support and tips. Finally up awake and pushing the Diet Coke to get motivated to do the job. Yep that is a ahem "standard replacement radiator" I picked up on the CF for $80 shipped to my door from a fm who could not use it. As correctly stated it works for both AT and MT Corvettes and Most C4s if I remember correctly. I could not pass it up to put it away for the future which is now here. It obvious the radiator has never been replaced on my almost 18 Year old car. So now was certainly the time to do a nice project as Jeff reccomend. Actually I think he said "dont be a girly man, you can do it" in his best Arnie voice :razz:

Jedi master Jeffvette told me to make sure I loosen the fan pulley with the tensioner still on. He told me it resolves the spinning issue. Don’t worry no air ratchets will be used as I don’t own one lol. On the Spal fans the FSM says the factory fans put out about 2200rpms.(don’t be impressed I had to look it up as I also wanted to know what the performance increase for the new fans would be) The Mad Vet catalog states that the new fans put out about 2730rpms so I guess better cooling is a total potential net increase of 500 CFM plus/minus

Thanks for the template idea I will probably do it in cardboard. As to the thermostat hosing yeah I thought of that but I was a little paranoid to dork around with the o-ring as I didn’t have a replacement but that would have worked as well. More pics as I get closer to the job completion. Jeff wants a pic of the water pump vains to see if it's pitted and such. GC

-=Jeff=-

08-29-2008, 12:28 PM

As to the thermostat hosing yeah I thought of that but I was a little paranoid to dork around with the o-ring as I didnâ€™t have a replacement but that would have worked as well.

but if you unbolt the bracket from the frame then you have NO Issue with the O-ring. unbolting bracket (while keeping it bolted to the Housing) allows the Housing to move..

not too bad, if you look at it, it might make more sense

Jedi master Jeffvette told me to make sure I loosen the fan pulley with the tensioner still on. He told me it resolves the spinning issue. Donâ€™t worry no air ratchets will be used as I donâ€™t own one lol. On the Spal fans the FSM says the factory fans put out about 2200rpms.(donâ€™t be impressed I had to look it up as I also wanted to know what the performance increase for the new fans would be) The Mad Vet catalog states that the new fans put out about 2730rpms so I guess better cooling is a total potential net increase of 500 CFM plus/minus

So does the 2200rpms and 2730rpms Directly relate to the CFM? or did you mean 2200 and 2730 CFM?

Thanks

cuisinartvette

08-29-2008, 12:33 PM

Wondering if the Spal fans draw less amps, too. Heard thats true which is a plus but never verified it.

rhipsher

08-29-2008, 02:35 PM

It's always something isn't it Goldcylon. Just be glad it isn't a broken throwout bearing. Or having to replace your exhaust manifolds. And although I'm glad I've done them, and know how. I don't want to have to do them anytime soon again.

HAWAIIZR-1

08-29-2008, 07:06 PM

Yeah, I remember that time a few years ago. I think I was cursing in at least 5 different languages. :-x

Kevin

08-29-2008, 09:49 PM

the wp is actually easy get yourself a set of hose clamp pliers (i think thats what they are called) makes the clamp by the stat easy as fallin out of bed

A26B

08-29-2008, 10:12 PM

Actually, keeping track of the water pump bolt placement is much easier than drilling a piece of plywood or even punching holes in a piece of cardboard. Just set the new pump on the bench & place each bolt in the position it was removed from into the new pump. Then when ready for the new pump. transfer the bolts over to the old pump & away you go.

Good call on the Spahl fans. Nice to know there's an improved performance fan that will fit our setup.

GOLDCYLON

08-29-2008, 11:38 PM

As to the SPAL fans the speed on the factory unit is 2200 CFM the new fans are over 2700. I am unsure if the amp draw is any more.

Update.... The water pump is out and I found it easier to place each of the bolts into the new pump after cleaning them and then once the old pump was out I simply transfered the bolts. That seamed easier to me. So the new water pump is in the position but I have not bolted it up yet thats tomorrows job. Frankly I was too tired lol

I had a hell of a time with getting the hose clamp off the top of the thermostat housing. What a total PITA it took me 2-3 hours but finally it came off. Here I am taking almost 20 bolts off the front end of the engine and the air horn and a stupid steel ring clamp cost me 1/3 of my work day.

So hopefully It will be all back together tomorrow as im done with hose and clamp madness. I love the look of the Samcos (registry plug lol) but I know whay they call them Samco sport hoses. You need to be a sport to get the buggers on lol. Here a quick look of the Samco work

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/oldcrossover.JPG

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/newcross.JPG

I cleaned up the rad area now it looks good. Feels good to get the job all together. Thanks for the support guys. The job has been difficult and a lot slower than I hoped for but no small animals or baby seals were clubed on an icesheet during the process. However during the ring clamp process I was glad none strolled into the garage lol. One tired old Cylon....

tccrab

08-30-2008, 12:22 AM

GOLDCYLON

08-30-2008, 12:40 AM

Darryl:

Those new hoses will look way too good on your car.
Send them to me and I'll put them on mine!!

Thanks for posting up all the pics, I'll save them for when I've got to do mine.
Here's hoping it will be a long time from now...

Good work!

Crabs

Thanks TC I will post up more when I get closer to the end.. The Samcos look good but they were a challenge. I cant imagine doing them just to do them. It makes more sense as a while you are doing a rad or wp exchange :)

PhillipsLT5

08-30-2008, 01:48 AM

If you need a hand, (now that your almost done), give me a call or I am sure Bill B would be happy to help, Getr done for Vegas

cuisinartvette

08-30-2008, 01:52 AM

Thanks TC I will post up more when I get closer to the end.. The Samcos look good but they were a challenge. I cant imagine doing them just to do them. It makes more sense as a while you are doing a rad or wp exchange :)
Exactly. I held onto mine for over a year until I finally decided to tear into things. Each time I looked down there to see what I would have to do I would just shut the hood and put it off, lol! I got my stainless clamps after it was altogether, guess what Ill never be putting on the car? :sign10:

GOLDCYLON

08-30-2008, 10:20 PM

90% done! Fluids in and no leaks!!!! I have the fan shroud and the air blaster to reinstall. For those who are going to do the samco upgrade first recommendation. Ditch the Corban steel factory clamps and go with the screw replacement type that Samco offers. The factory clamps are just abear to get at even with the correct tool Second, the small hose on the bottom of the thermostat housing that connects to the lower radiator to connect is almost impossible unless you remove the thermostat housing. It will not go on any other way as the angle is too extreme between the two. Glad to have this almost behind me and I learned a lot along the way. The front and rear Bear Eradispeeds go on Monday if I can stand it lol.

Oh if I didnt make it clear the factory hose clamps suck.....

GOLDCYLON

08-30-2008, 10:24 PM

If you need a hand, (now that your almost done), give me a call or I am sure Bill B would be happy to help, Getr done for Vegas

Thanks I called Bill but he was AWOL. I assume he is out of town he never returned my calls or emails. :icon_scra

-=Jeff=-

08-31-2008, 12:26 AM

Where can one get the OEM Hose clamp tool?

GOLDCYLON

08-31-2008, 04:53 AM

Where can one get the OEM Hose clamp tool?

Jeff I bought the closest thing to it at Checker Auto parts. It was called a Corban style spring clamp remover and it did a very good job. I dont think a real GM unit would be much better. This at least was the 90% solution. The issue is confined spaces and angles to even use the tool coupled with the hose being partically mated to the hose surface over the years makes the removal just a challenging job. I believe it was $15. This one has a arm which 90% of the time will lock the tool to aide in removal. Im not sure what the real GM tool even looks like.

GOLDCYLON

08-31-2008, 04:55 AM

Exactly. I held onto mine for over a year until I finally decided to tear into things. Each time I looked down there to see what I would have to do I would just shut the hood and put it off, lol! I got my stainless clamps after it was altogether, guess what Ill never be putting on the car? :sign10:

Smart man I dont want to be doing those anytime soon again either.

tomtom72

08-31-2008, 06:22 AM

Paul Workman

08-31-2008, 07:53 AM

I had a pair of duckbill Vise-Grips and with a die grinder I cut a notch about 1 cm long and about 3-4mm deep, back from the tip of the jaws about 1/2 cm. It works much, much better! I don't have a "real" tool for that project, but I can say I'm not in the market anymore either. It isn't perfect, but it works from any angle (best from 90Âº).

As for getting the hose to leggo it's grip, I found a "hair dryer" type shop heater to get the rubber good and warm and some WD-40 helped a lot. (Works a lot better if there's little or no water in the hose connection tho...)

P.

-=Jeff=-

08-31-2008, 10:02 AM

Jeff I bought the closest thing to it at Checker Auto parts. It was called a dorman style spring clamp remover and it did a very good job. I dont think a real GM unit would be much better. This at least was the 90% solution. The issue is confined spaces and angles to even use the tool coupled with the hose being partically mated to the hose surface over the years makes the removal just a challenging job. I believe it was $15. This one has a arm which 90% of the time will lock the tool to aide in removal. Im not sure what the real GM tool even looks like.

Thanks GC!! I will check it out

cuisinartvette

08-31-2008, 12:15 PM

'Cylon, only reservation I had about using stock clamps is the silicon has so much give I was afraid they would go right through the hoses (which they wont) but at least Ill never have to retighten them..

Interesting read on the "coolant smell", I too have experienced that but have never seen a drip anywhere.

Couldnt find a local place with the clamp tool, I backyarded it with some channel locks and vice grips. Shot some of those clamps across the garage like a cannon, :sign10: lucky I didnt lose an eye.

PhillipsLT5

08-31-2008, 02:42 PM

I have the smell
No leaks
Samco preferred clamps

GOLDCYLON

08-31-2008, 02:59 PM

Hey Daryl glad to hear that all is okay! Nice job dude!:thumbsup:

You are aware of the GM reason for using the "sprung steel band clamps"? They were getting complaints about 'coolant smell' from Z owners. The 'smell' was after the motor went thru a heat cycle, and upon cool down after engine shut off the smell was fairly strong. No liquid leaks, but a ton of small vapor leaks. The 'ideal' type screw clamps were not expanding and contracting with the aluminium parts and allowing vapor to escape....their answer to this was to use those "clamps from he!!".

I'd be curious to know how the real Samco clamps perform with regards to this issue. Yea, I used ideal clamps and mine leaks vapor on cool down...we didn't have the samco clamps when I bought my hoses.

Good luck with the new stuff!:thumbsup:

Tom

Tom I remembered your post up about that issue earlier. In fact I remember you went back somewhere to try and recover the clamps. After the problems with the clamps this was the best solution for me. These clamps look identical to the ideal clamps but are stainless. they track smooth while turning and are tight. After I go through a few heat cycles I will let you know. Phil just stated he had the Samco preferred hose clamps and he can smell the glycol.

GOLDCYLON

08-31-2008, 03:05 PM

Thanks GC!! I will check it out

If you cant find it let me know. My son works for Checker maybe I can get a Forum buy together lol. But before that happens somebody has to post up what the real GM tool looks like because I want to see the differnce. My little tool is not exact but gets the job done.

I should have my car all together tonight. I will post up the pics of the install and the tool for everyone to take a gander at. GC

GOLDCYLON

08-31-2008, 03:06 PM

Shot some of those clamps across the garage like a cannon, :sign10: lucky I didnt lose an eye.

No **** bro, or break a finger or injure a small animal :razz:

rhipsher

08-31-2008, 03:21 PM

No **** bro, or break a finger or injure a small animal :razz:
I don't know man! Squirrels are pretty tough. I hit one friday at 50mph. I heard 5 thumps hit the floor board. I looked in my rear view mirror and saw him run right up a tree. I couldn't believe it.:dancing

A26B

08-31-2008, 05:17 PM

Drive around those armadillo's though!! Man, they're like hitting a rock!

flyin ryan

08-31-2008, 05:33 PM

The moose up here do serious damage to 18 wheelers, forget about passenger vehicles:pray , it can get real ugly when Bruce the Moose decides he wants to cross the road:jawdrop: .

-=Jeff=-

08-31-2008, 08:26 PM

If you cant find it let me know. My son works for Checker maybe I can get a Forum buy together lol. But before that happens somebody has to post up what the real GM tool looks like because I want to see the differnce. My little tool is not exact but gets the job done.

I should have my car all together tonight. I will post up the pics of the install and the tool for everyone to take a gander at. GC

I have Murrays, Advance and Autozone, as well as Napa and Carquest

if none have it I will let you know

GOLDCYLON

08-31-2008, 10:33 PM

Heres a picture of the Corban clamp removers

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/tool.JPG

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/tool2.JPG

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/clamppuller.JPG

GOLDCYLON

08-31-2008, 10:43 PM

Ok completed.

You need to cut the rad shroud in order to get the shroud out. Its the only way unless you pull the AC lines and Oil Cooler lines. Dont worry I cleaned it after the install !

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/cutshroud.JPG

All together !

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/enginetop.JPG

New Radiator

http://members.cox.net/goldcylon/newrad.JPG

-=Jeff=-

08-31-2008, 10:50 PM

I cut my shroud the same way when I did it too, but mine is coming back apart this winter to swap in the bottom breather air box

-=Jeff=-

08-31-2008, 10:50 PM

Oh thanks for the pictures of the tool

GOLDCYLON

08-31-2008, 10:59 PM

Oh thanks for the pictures of the tool

No sweat bro happy to help ! :handshak:

4DSZR1

09-01-2008, 11:48 AM

I cut my shroud the same way when I did it too, but mine is coming back apart this winter to swap in the bottom breather air box

What did you cut it with? I've tried twice to get mine off without cutting...I l know it can be done, but I'll be dogged if I can do it.

Thanks

GOLDCYLON

09-01-2008, 04:54 PM

What did you cut it with? I've tried twice to get mine off without cutting...I l know it can be done, but I'll be dogged if I can do it.

Thanks

Standard metal shears, Cut it like butter. The shroud removal can not be done without removing either the Oil Cooler lines or the AC Cooler lines. Your only option is to cut shroud if you dont want to disconnect those lines.

4DSZR1

09-01-2008, 06:54 PM

Thats what I'll do then......snip snip :-)

GOLDCYLON

09-01-2008, 07:05 PM

Thats what I'll do then......snip snip :-)

Just take your time and dont be surprised if you cant get it all off in one piece. You can make it look right after you have it out.

bobbyhi

09-01-2008, 08:23 PM

Standard metal shears, Cut it like butter. The shroud removal can not be done without removing either the Oil Cooler lines or the AC Cooler lines. Your only option is to cut shroud if you dont want to disconnect those lines.

Goldy, I took my shroud off without removing any of the lines you mentioned and I didn't have to cut the shroud either. The only tough part were the 6 screws in the side. Got 5 out 6 back though. I followed the instructions posted here and walla:jawdrop: off she came.....

Also made the screen to keep the big stuff out.............:dancing

GOLDCYLON

09-02-2008, 12:21 AM

Goldy, I took my shroud off without removing any of the lines you mentioned and I didn't have to cut the shroud either. The only tough part were the 6 screws in the side. Got 5 out 6 back though. I followed the instructions posted here and walla:jawdrop: off she came.....

Also made the screen to keep the big stuff out.............:dancing

Wow Bobby how in the hell did you do that? Are you sure yours wasnt cut to start with? Yeah im working on a screen for my BMAD now. While I have you on the thread an individual on the other forum was looking for a part to his 49th street rocker panels. Do you have any pieces extra? D Send me a pic of your screen work!!!

cuisinartvette

09-02-2008, 02:18 AM

Mine had been cut and Im surprised that thing didnt snap when I tried to twist it out. Pain in the butt. Forget putting all those screws in downstairs, think I left 2 of them out. In the "extra bolts" bin.

PhillipsLT5

09-02-2008, 03:36 AM

haibeck has a photo on his website
i think its from my car

bobbyhi

09-02-2008, 07:28 AM

Wow Bobby how in the hell did you do that? Are you sure yours wasnt cut to start with? Yeah im working on a screen for my BMAD now. While I have you on the thread an individual on the other forum was looking for a part to his 49th street rocker panels. Do you have any pieces extra? D Send me a pic of your screen work!!!

As I was lurking over there, I saw that thread. I was suppose to hook up with WDO-MKR from CF last winter. He is from around here and wanted to see if it would be feasible to make these again. Unfortunately, we never got together but we will be this coming winter. I will take mike off and he is going to the mold maker and see if they can be duplicated. I don't think the guy over there will have much luck finding just a "part" of one.

Back to the shroud thing - mine was not previously cut or anything like that. It just came out like the instructions said it should. Something about standing on the drivers side and lifting that corner up first and then working it back and forth. Did that project last fall so I can't remember the exact way but it is on our forum.