A Story from long ago...water pumps...

[vandornjim]

I thought I'd share:handshak:


BTW, Jim, I'm still setting on that spare ZR1 water pump you sold me 15 years ago. What are they worth today?

Ahhhh those were the days. Great story behind those::happy1:

Back in 1994-95(????) there was a sudden lack of water pumps for the LT5. Seems GM didn’t have much warranty history for the car because few were returning to the dealers for work and many weren’t being driven much. So… the very limited inventory went to nothing and soon cars were sitting for months at dealerships awaiting the phantom water pumps….but there were none.

Well, seems this guy who owned a major AC Delco warehouse put in an order for 65 of the pumps for the growing backorder. After one month it went unfilled and according to him, his computer automatically re-ordered the backorder. Seems GM was trying to outsource new water pumps from the original manufacturer or was faced with buying back vehicles because of it (and they did). GM had initially looked at the demand, then doubled the order to the supplier. It was for approx 300 pumps.

(Can you imagine the complete idiot-cracy it took to buy back a ZR-1, the most expensive consumer Chevrolet in their history, because of a $200 water pump? Yep…and some wary owners actually took them up on it. One guy told me that if a parts shortage was already in place, what in the world would it be in another 5 years? Visionary wasn’t he?)

In any case, the order bounced again and of course the Delco guy’s computer re-re-ordered them again….and GM’s computer ADDED the order to the number of pumps he had previously ordered. First 65, then another 65, then again, etc. Well, when the order was finally filled, this guy got nearly the entire run of some 300 water pumps.

So I get this call from the guy and he says he has this problem. Someone at GM had told him to call me and see if I could help. He asked if I would be interested in “some” LT5 water pumps he happened to have. Aware of the nationwide lack of inventory, I told him I surely was, I’d take at least a dozen. There was one small problem. As he proceeded to tell his story to me, he then mentioned he had 300 pumps, and all had to be bought in one purchase for a very special price. Seems if he returned them there was a chargeback to his account for some small percentage because after all, HE had ordered them in the first place. So, he offered me a special deal. List was $500+ at the dealers, jobber price was $325. He would sell them to me at his cost as a warehouse distributor but I had to take ALL OF THEM.

Well, the Net was fairly new then but we had quite a few members so I put out the idea to everybody. Back then we all helped each other pretty well so I didn’t need to make any huge profit so I offered the net group a very special deal: You could buy a brand new water pump (available no where else) for a mere $265 (included shipping), less than half the dealer price. I turned off my computer and went home for the day.

4:30am the next morning I took my seat at the desk and turned on the ‘ol Gateway 233. As my aol came up (yep, same vandornjim) I see this huge list of mail. Unbelievably, we had pre-sold over 200 pumps overnight! Thus the concept of internet sales began, long before the thousands of vendors today, long before any forums, just a bunch of ZR-1 nuts :cheers:

I called the guy at Delco and told him I’d take them all and a week later 3 or 4 pallets show up. You shoulda seen the look on Sherri’s face when those pallets showed up along with a bill for 300 water pumps…..


BTW, Jim, I'm still setting on that spare ZR1 water pump you sold me 15 years ago. What are they worth today?

Now back to your original question. First of all, what are you “setting” on the pump? :)

Currently still available, LT5 water pumps now list for a whopping $866.00 from AC Delco. Did you get a deal? You make the call….:wink:

jvd in BG (man am I gettin old or WHAT???)

[cuisinartvette]

I was told while looking for one recently that Cardone (a parts distributor) boght a ton of GM water pumps for the LT5 reboxed them under the Cardone name and nearly doubled their proce, around $625. I felt lucky :rolleyes: to get a Delco one for $500 :-({|=

[jonszr1]

that the one thing i hate about our hobby . GREEDY people . i know people got to make a living ,but............. . and G.M.s lack of parts support for a 60k car. is the main reason i sold all my G.M. STK . THE BOARD IS JUST INEPT . Has no idea of customer service or Idea that they could have a very profitable business suppling parts for their customers. they sell you the car and then pull the rug out from under you. that shoud be there motto................. sorry for the rant . this subject really irks me

[Jeffvette]

that the one thing i hate about our hobby . GREEDY people . i know people got to make a living ,but......

Brad, no need to look any further for the greed. He quoted list price. Which was marked up another 70 bucks from what my AC delco dealership says list price is.

I will sell those things all day long at 400.

[jonszr1]

ya I know . sure wish people could realize doing a good job for a fair price or selling for a fair price . would get you more business than one could handle. its the simplest of things ', do the right thing treat em better than they think possible . i promise you will be rich in more ways than money . end of the soap box:mrgreen:

[jonszr1]

Jeff, by the way Nice avitar . ole proverb . Tight buts drive me nuts. oh yeah

[vandornjim]

Brad, no need to look any further for the greed. He quoted list price. Which was marked up another 70 bucks from what my AC delco dealership says list price is.

I will sell those things all day long at 400.

Oh don't twist what was said, Jeff me boy. The question was simply "what do they go for now?" Delco's true list is exactly $866.66 for a 251-561 pump and it costs you $415.00 BUT....you need a better "AC Delco dealership".....
....because there is another pump (though it is listed as UNAVAILABLE) with another number which is what you were referring to. THAT pump (252-703) (different manufacturer) lists for $781.6 and costs you $337.64. It is not as hefty as the 561 pump. Yes, you could sell those for $400 IF YOU COULD GET THEM but where were you back when there wasn't any pumps available and when they were, were provided direct to the ZR-1 owners, without GM's markups, and even below WHOLESALE cost?

But as usual, you got some bug in yer panties when it comes to me so you were referring that I was "greedy", let me just offer this. I wasn't offering to sell anything, just merely answering a question from someone about their water pump. As a group we were able to not only sell these pumps at way below even jobber cost, but we also go some great deals on starters and gaskets and other odds and ends that were sold at terrific savings.

We also had several VERY nice get togethers which DID benefit me....with memories for a lifefime....but no financial gain. But also for others including the Registry, the LT5 Gang, the NCM, etc. We once handed a check for $12,000 to the ZR1 Registry for a brand new Apple Power something or another so that they could continue doing the terrific job on their newsletter which back then was invaluable to us owners. Then also immediately handed a check to the NCM for $14,000. Of course there wasn't one single complaint that I heard of and there wasn't a single dry eye in the house after the Legend Lives banquet and presentation, but that was long before "your time". Not bad for a weekend, huh? All it took was 6 months of un-paid work and planning (about 1,000 hours), three trips to Detroit, a couple thousand dollars in phone and fax bills, 2 dozen volunteers, and I don't want to count the cases of beer...:-).
And you want to insinuate that I'm "greedy"???
For answering a question no less? :sign10:

Now about those $400 water pumps....
jvd

[jonszr1]

mr van dorn , i do not know you, you seem nice enough but your post was to me very confusing as to what price one would pay if they wanted one. i also found the engine post somewhat (again to me) missleading. it to me sounded like it had the custom cams that drm tested. i thought the engine you were selling was the one tested @drm just rebuilt . i make no judgements just shareing that these 2 things are somewhat misleading . it makes it a little diconserting on whats being sold and for how much . i wish you all the sucess in reopening your business , had I not found corey - jeff i most proably would have given you a try .:thumbsup:

[Jeffvette]

Oh don't twist what was said, Jeff me boy. The question was simply "what do they go for now?" Delco's true list is exactly $866.66 for a 251-561 pump and it costs you $415.00 BUT....you need a better "AC Delco dealership".....
....because there is another pump (though it is listed as UNAVAILABLE) with another number which is what you were referring to. THAT pump (252-703) (different manufacturer) lists for $781.6 and costs you $337.64. It is not as hefty as the 561 pump. Yes, you could sell those for $400 IF YOU COULD GET THEM

The part # 251-561 is the one I sell for 400.
The part # 252-703 is a reman unit and is definately a lot cheaper. I will not even touch a reman for anybodys car.
The 252-703 number was discon in 2001.



And the rest of diatribe.... well I'm not even going to go there. Not worth my time or the bandwidth.

[vandornjim]

mr van dorn , i do not know you, you seem nice enough but your post was to me very confusing as to what price one would pay if they wanted one.

Well Jon, it IS very confusing when discussing prices but one doesn't have to make remarks nor change the context as to what was said to make a mute point. As I pointed out, there were two different pumps listed with two different prices. AC Delco or GM List price is the only stable or "official" price you can quote because there are oh so many out there (now) who come up with their own pricing. When I was asked about the current price, I compared the list with list back then. If Jeff wants to sell water pumps for $400 which is $15 UNDER our cost, I'd suggest buying from him. :-)

The internet has brought about fierce competition in all aspects of products and service. We are very fair about our pricing but we also have bills to pay to stay in business. As our record has clearly shown, we were still able to offer products at very substantial discounts making it a win win for all.

Thanks for the well wishes. We have been fully re-operational since December and have achieved far more success than I ever dreamed in such a short time. We have had Corvettes brought in from all over the east. In addition, we are also the official service center for the GM Corvette Assembly Plant right next door. They keep a fleet of some 60-80 vehicles for a variety of purposes. that's a BIG step gettin in their door vs the local dealerships....

jvd

[A26B]

I did a little research on this matter of the 2 part numbers, 252-703 and 251-561. Appears it is an old subject of confusion. Here's what I found, (below)with a letter from AC Delco detailing the difference.

Summary of my research is as follows;

"old" Delco #251-561 is phased out by "new" Delco #252-703. Same pump, different supplier to Delco.

GM #10159599 is Delco unit with casting #10135833. It has also appeared with GM #10135875 on Delco box label, same casting number, brand new, no gasket.

Bottom line: no difference in pumps, all of the above are brand new units made by/for Delco for the LT5 only. No remans by Delco or GM.

FWIW, GM discontinued the #10159599 water pump 3/07. There are 3 left in dealership inventory around the country and the price quoted to me was $600 & some change.


From: Bruce L. Wolfe <blwzr1@sprynet.com>
To: ACDelco Customer Assistance Center
Subject: Re: ACDelco - Product Suggestions

<snip>

I saw a "Pump Kit" (# 252-703) also listed on the AC Delco web-site. Is that
particular kit a *rebuild kit* for the water pump (# 251-561)? What does that
particular kit (# 252-703) contain?

Thank you,
bruce

----- Original Message -----
From: "ACDelco Customer Assistance Center"
To: "Bruce L. Wolfe" <blwzr1@sprynet.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 6:41 AM
Subject: ACDelco Pump Kit

Thanks for taking the time to write ACDelco.

In regards to your inquiry, according to our Product Specialists, the part
number 252-703 is the latest part number. The pump kit was resourced
to another supplier. The pump is new w/gasket and not a reman kit.

The 251-561 number is being phased out and will be cataloged until PDC
supplies are depleted. As far as fit and function the two part numbers are
identical only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

Thank you for your interest in ACDelco.

ACDelco Customer Assistance

[Belsy]

In view of all this has anyone experimented with electric water pumps on ZR-1s?? Seems like a great way to save HP and grief!!

[jonszr1]

Oh don't twist what was said, Jeff me boy. The question was simply "what do they go for now?" Delco's true list is exactly $866.66 for a 251-561 pump and it costs you $415.00 BUT....you need a better "AC Delco dealership".....
....because there is another pump (though it is listed as UNAVAILABLE) with another number which is what you were referring to. THAT pump (252-703) (different manufacturer) lists for $781.6 and costs you $337.64. It is not as hefty as the 561 pump. Yes, you could sell those for $400 IF YOU COULD GET THEM but where were you back when there wasn't any pumps available and when they were, were provided direct to the ZR-1 owners, without GM's markups, and even below WHOLESALE cost?

But as usual, you got some bug in yer panties when it comes to me so you were referring that I was "greedy", let me just offer this. I wasn't offering to sell anything, just merely answering a question from someone about their water pump. As a group we were able to not only sell these pumps at way below even jobber cost, but we also go some great deals on starters and gaskets and other odds and ends that were sold at terrific savings.

We also had several VERY nice get togethers which DID benefit me....with memories for a lifefime....but no financial gain. But also for others including the Registry, the LT5 Gang, the NCM, etc. We once handed a check for $12,000 to the ZR1 Registry for a brand new Apple Power something or another so that they could continue doing the terrific job on their newsletter which back then was invaluable to us owners. Then also immediately handed a check to the NCM for $14,000. Of course there wasn't one single complaint that I heard of and there wasn't a single dry eye in the house after the Legend Lives banquet and presentation, but that was long before "your time". Not bad for a weekend, huh? All it took was 6 months of un-paid work and planning (about 1,000 hours), three trips to Detroit, a couple thousand dollars in phone and fax bills, 2 dozen volunteers, and I don't want to count the cases of beer...:-).
And you want to insinuate that I'm "greedy"???
For answering a question no less? :sign10:

Now about thoif se $400 water pumps....
jvd why make statements like they aren,t as hefty when it is just a new part number because of mfg change? why ? why?

[A26B]

why make statements like they aren,t as hefty when it is just a new part number because of mfg change? why ? why?

Before you go off on Jim, maybe he is relying on info obtained/furnished to him, just like I am with the post I made. We all do the best we can with what we have to work with.

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of issues like this wish some valid supporting documents. I seized on the letter from ACDelco as being that kind of supporting info.

[jonszr1]

sorry , guess if he hadnt gone off on jeff first , i would not have responded the way i did . i know jeff to be a honest caring guy that freely helps us all . it just my up bringing .army ranger DI dad as well as me .didnt mean to offend anyone . jim might though be a little less agressive with his comments also. bottem line WE ALL LOVE THESE CARS. give each other a little slack and a little kindness . it goes a long way.................:hello:

[WB9MCW]

we are all "Brothers of the Beast"

my fav new saying

[jonszr1]

I agree whole heartedly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cuisinartvette]

Electric water pump may be a pain, and the expense to get someone to make it. It only uses what, 14 bolts? It would have to be machined perfectly as other things bolt to/through it also. Not a bad idea though:cheers:

[A26B]

sorry , guess if he hadnt gone off on jeff first , i would not have responded the way i did . i know jeff to be a honest caring guy that freely helps us all . it just my up bringing .army ranger DI dad as well as me .didnt mean to offend anyone . jim might though be a little less agressive with his comments also. bottem line WE ALL LOVE THESE CARS. give each other a little slack and a little kindness . it goes a long way.................:hello:

Really good of you to respond in the way you have. I',ve mellowed in some ways in my old age and gotten crankier in others. Being a former Marine in the "old corps", I can relate to the Ranger/DI personality. Having stepped on my d**k a few times, I now try to be a little more objective to reduce the frequency of self-induced pain. :D

Hope to meet you some time & share a pitcher or two.:cheers:

Take care,
Jerry

[jonszr1]

I hope we can get together too one day corey tells me your a hell of a guy . i also love that lsv of yours . if i had it id proably sleep in it. Have agreat memorial day!:cheers: :cheers:

[LGNDLT5]

Hi Jim. I am probably in danger of hijacking this thread but........... If I understand the question correctly 'how much should a waterpump cost'?
I have been offering NOS water pumps for years at under $300. I believe that the inventory is much larger than it would appear. I do however believe it prudent to keep an extra one if you have it because many auction sellers are charging mucho bucks and I suspect it can only get more expensive as the "none available" perception increases over time. A little homework can save a person substantial $$ on at least this item. ;)

[MikeG]

Recently joined the registry - found your post and was wondering if you still have any water pumps available. I think mine has gone south for the winter! A couple of weeks ago I had anti-freeze "squirting" up from the front of the engine - squirting to the pass side. Now have anti-freeze coming from upper front engine area (somewher) dripping back along oil pan when the engine is running. Have yet to get it up on a rack or jack stands to check for sure.

[LGNDLT5]

Hi Mike. After you have completed your diag and if you need a waterpump I still have a few NEW, NOS waterpumps
available, @ $275.00 (available@ $275.00) shipped. (in Cont. U.S.). Just email me if I can help. john.sullivan@protective.com:thumbsup:

[tomtom72]

Just two cents from a fellow brother of the beast.:o

Mike if you do need a w/p do not hesitate to deal with LGNDLT5! I bought one awhile back and the deal was smooooth as silk! Merchandise is the real deal!

:thumbsup: to LGNDLT5!

I bought mine for "stock".:redface:


:cheers:
Tom

[MikeG]

Tom, thanks for the info - am about to put the ZR up on jackstands right now to verify that the pump and not a hose is bad.:hello:

[MikeG]

John, thanks for info - am about to put ZR up on jackstands to verify where the leak is - I will get back to you soonest