Stranded on a road trip, '90 ZR-1, no crank

[ZBrink]

I got stranded at a gas station 2k from home in northern Arizona. Just bought this '90 on Friday. Have started it 15+ times no issues. Got back in it after filling up with fuel and the starter isn't making any cranking sound. I enlisted some strangers to try to help me push start it, not sure if I did it right, but it didn't start that way either.

Anyone good at troubleshooting something like this?

Zack: 217-725-7760 Feel free to call if you're good at this and willing! I'm alone, 2k miles from home, currently in Flagstaff.

EDIT 1) It has battery power, the headlights, HVAC control and radio all power on. When I turn the key to On, I hear a humming so I assume that's the fuel pump working? Not sure if relevant but the cluster itself does nothing when I turn the key to On.

EDIT 2) I was able to push start it in 2nd with some kind strangers help. Engine would seemingly and randomly die which make me think fuel as well. But, why no crank if it's a fuel issue? Was able to drive it 60 miles to a hotel. It cutout once at highway speed, I shifted into a lower gear and it fired right back up, at speed. Not sure if relevant/related, the gauge cluster goes out when the engine dies but the rest of the dash has full power. The no crank is my biggest worry in getting it home as I won't always have people able and willing to help me push start.

EDIT 3) Anyone know how to bypass VATS on the fly with generic parts I can get at an auto parts or hardware store on a Sunday? I was going to try and get some wire and clips to bypass the clutch switch as well. The Security light is flashing but maybe it stays solid or comes on when the engine cuts out and I'm just seeing it happen in that split second?

EDIT 4) It started right up late this morning but it has cut out on me twice while driving at highway speed and both times I was able to get it running again while still at speed. Is this related to my no crank issue or a separate issue?

EDIT 5) I want to give a shout out to the two Daves and Mike for calling and advising me over the phone with their time and expertise. So much appreciated! The issue has not be diagnosed or solved as of yet but the car has been starting and I'm still pressing east, in Oklahoma City for the night. The car is going to need numerous repairs/maintenance items tackled but this is definitely at the top of the list.

[Mikey]

Air fuel spark. And rpm to start. If not getting anything spinning when trying to start then starter is suspect or could be the clutch switch. You can jumper the latter.
Also can try the ol tap on the starter trick while someone turns the key. Need a stick or rod of sorts to poke under intake from the rear area.

[ZBrink]

Air fuel spark. And rpm to start. If not getting anything spinning when trying to start then starter is suspect or could be the clutch switch. You can jumper the latter.
Also can try the ol tap on the starter trick while someone turns the key. Need a stick or rod of sorts to poke under intake from the rear area.

No alligator clips but I believe I got good contact with the clutch switch trying to jump it with a spare wire. It did not crank. I found a paint mixing rod and was able to reach the starter through the plenum and tap on it with a hammer. Still did not crank.

Is there a starter relay or fuse which affects the starter?

Also, dumb question, does the brake pedal have to be pressed as well or just the clutch to crank?

[ZBrink]

We were able to push start it and get it running but it inevitably just dies. We let it idle in the parking lot for 15 minutes the first time and then it died. I tried driving it up and down the street near the gas station where I originally got stranded, and it just died while driving.

I can't tell if these are two separate problems? Two different times, we were able to get it to crank by rocking the car while in gear. Something I noticed that I'm not sure if his related, the gauge cluster lights flutter and then go out right when the engine dies.

[efnfast]

Dead battery? Because of a bad alternator?

[garyhugo]

Dreaded no start on many 90-92. Technical postings, Sticky solutions under general has several good postings on how to diagnose and repair this situation. Good luck. Many of us have gone through this.

[ZBrink]

Dead battery? Because of a bad alternator?

I don't believe so. We got it running via push start again. It seemed as long as I kept the RPMs up, it stayed running. I drove 60 miles or to a hotel in Flagstaff. It died at about the 55 mile mark but I was at speed, shifted in a lower gear, and it fired up again. Unsure if relevant/related, the gauge cluster goes out when the car dies?

[ZBrink]

Dreaded no start on many 90-92. Technical postings, Sticky solutions under general has several good postings on how to diagnose and repair this situation. Good luck. Many of us have gone through this.

Unfortunately I'm alone without any substantive tools, 2k miles from home trying to go through all of this by myself on the fly. This is my first ZR-1 and I've owned it for 48 hours. If anyone knowledgeable would be willing to speak with me on the phone on a Sunday, that would be most helpful. I've been a Corvette Forum member for over 20 years under the same name.

[mrmojo1111]

Hey man. Fellow Springfield, IL 90Z owner here. I'm also facing the dreaded DNS, but, thankfully I'm in my garage. Feel free to call me at 31nine 54one 4one30.

[dredgeguy]

Possible fuel pump clip came off hose?

[phrogs]

yeah it sucks to not have tools any harbor freights near by?


what does it feel like when it dies?

does it just shut off or do you feel like your starving for fuel?

[A26B]

I don't believe so. We got it running via push start again. It seemed as long as I kept the RPMs up, it stayed running. I drove 60 miles or to a hotel in Flagstaff. It died at about the 55 mile mark but I was at speed, shifted in a lower gear, and it fired up again. Unsure if relevant/related, the gauge cluster goes out when the car dies?

What is the rpm at which it would stay running and below which it would die?

When it stayed running, was it running smooth?

Did it run very rough right before it died?

Check your battery terminal and make sure they are tight. You may be able to tighten with out any tools if you can rotate the battery cable to the right like you are tightening a bolt.

[Mikey]

Still not much to go on but since it runs but not well, symptoms sound like low fuel pressure. Many things can cause that. An incorrect fuel pickup line in the tank could have collapsed or deteriorated. Or fuel filter could be plugged. Or injectors gummed up. Etc etc.

[Mikey]

Spoke with Zack. Multiple things going on but it?s not running rough when it?s running. He?s making progress eastbound. All issues seem electrical and the combination could all be caused by a bad ignition key cylinder I believe.

Incidentally can anyone confirm if VATS matters once the car is running?

[ZBrink]

Possible fuel pump clip came off hose?

I don't believe so as I would think that would cause a permanent issue vs and intermittent one. I had it running for 11 hrs straight yesterday and it only shut-off twice, both times within the first hour of operation.

[ZBrink]

yeah it sucks to not have tools any harbor freights near by?


what does it feel like when it dies?

does it just shut off or do you feel like your starving for fuel?

Great question...It just shuts off, almost like someone turned the key to the "Off" position. No starvation of fuel felt.

[GOLDCYLON]

Also, dumb question, does the brake pedal have to be pressed as well or just the clutch to crank?

The clutch needs to be engaged only to start the car however, it's always a good idea to have a foot on the brake incase you try to start and forgot it's in gear.

[Mikey]

Zack made it home. I?m very confident his ignition power is intermittently cutting out. Given that a key cycling ?fixes? it it?s focus on the ignition key cylinder and the wiring to it.

When he said he was losing the gauge cluster but not the radio or hvac I confirmed this could be a mistaken interpretation of the situation because at night when the lights are turned on the radio and hvac buttons are illuminated regardless of key position or ignition state whereas the gauge cluster backlights only come on when ignition is on (exception for the cluster center LCD which illuminates with just headlight switch)

[dredgeguy]

Zack made contact with Wazoo and he is now in good hands!

[Raykahn]

This sounds similar to what I was just dealing with in my 90. When cold it would start with no issues. Once the engine was warm it couldn't start without a push. Replacing the starter fixed it.

Cutting out while driving is strange. I did not have that. I don't think that would relate to the starter, so you may have 2 different issues. Maybe a grounding issue? The other other WAZOO Zack (god, there's three of us now) had electrical/grounding issues with his Z. He might be able to speak to some of the symptoms he saw.

[Dynomite]

These type of issues that are often electrical and intermittent on a 30 year old car can be fixed but often the solution is not specifically identified. The solution takes a lot of patience and often is trial and error (mostly error) :cheers:

I have run into a couple examples .......one a water pump impeller spinning on the shaft (mechanical) and another as follows which was electrical.......

Post 244 - INJ1 Fuse Keeps Blowing (https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-13.html#post1592505475)

One solution I never tried was to remove the fuse in line and see what smokes....But that could be costly :cheers:

I actually picked up the 95' ZR1 500 miles away and it functioned fine all the way to my garage.......then a few weeks later the INJ1 fuse issue started 1/2 mile down the road from my garage :thumbsup:

Keep us posted in this thread and sooner or later one of us will offer the fix among many fixes offered and in the end we will not know exactly what the real fix was or how long the fix will last :):)

I have one of those electrical issues taking place on a 90' ZR1 now involving the tachometer quitting intermittently.....nothing else on the ZR1 is negatively affected or inffected........:handshak:

[Tim555]

I am also experiencing an intermittent no-crank when hot issue. I want to rule out the clutch safety switch. When I have the issue and I push the clutch in and turn the key to start I get a voltage drop. If I do not have the clutch in and I turn the key to start I get a slight voltage increase. Am I correct to conclude that the clutch switch is working because the voltage drop when the clutch is in is due to current being sent to the starter, and the voltage rise when the clutch is not in is due to the accessories being turned off, but no current going to the starter?

[ZBrink]

This sounds similar to what I was just dealing with in my 90. When cold it would start with no issues. Once the engine was warm it couldn't start without a push. Replacing the starter fixed it.

Cutting out while driving is strange. I did not have that. I don't think that would relate to the starter, so you may have 2 different issues. Maybe a grounding issue? The other other WAZOO Zack (god, there's three of us now) had electrical/grounding issues with his Z. He might be able to speak to some of the symptoms he saw.

For mine, cold or warm makes no difference as to when it will or will not start. It also tuns off randomly so I believe I can eliminate the starter as an issue. I believe the two issues are related.

[ZBrink]

UPDATE: I had the car running in the garage while trying to tuck back some wires I had dangling still from pulling the HVAC Program Module. When moving around the wires, the car abruptly "turned off" just as it was doing while driving. So, I turned upside down and looked up around the wiring and saw this sorta "frayed" wire in the photo. Obviously I need to repair this wire but does anyone know off-hand what it powers/controls? I'm very admittedly not good with electrical but will try and look through the Electrical Supplement to the 1990 Service Manual.

Also, does "at'ing" people work in here like it does on the CorvetteForum? @Mikey

[Mikey]

@-ing does not seem to do anything on this forum. I pretty much check it daily anyway so if you are trying to reach me it is not too hard lol Corvette form on the other hand I do not frequent nearly as much.

I cannot really tell from your photo where that set of wires is at. Also difficult to determine if that is part of the original harness that has a splice in it or if those wires are part of some sort of aftermarket, radio or other accessory install. Brown wire is typically a positive power feed wire on the accessory side of the ignition.

Good to know that you may have found a way to replicate the issue you were having. That harness repair should be relatively easy.

[dredgeguy]

Looks like step one to narrow down the cause has been more or less determined. If that is it will be an easy fix.

[ZBrink]

@-ing does not seem to do anything on this forum. I pretty much check it daily anyway so if you are trying to reach me it is not too hard lol Corvette form on the other hand I do not frequent nearly as much.

I cannot really tell from your photo where that set of wires is at. Also difficult to determine if that is part of the original harness that has a splice in it or if those wires are part of some sort of aftermarket, radio or other accessory install. Brown wire is typically a positive power feed wire on the accessory side of the ignition.

Good to know that you may have found a way to replicate the issue you were having. That harness repair should be relatively easy.

Thanks for the quick reply Mike. I wanted to post an update vs contacting you directly so that everyone who was helping and interested was tracking. But, I was definitely hoping your electrical engineering skills would step in :-) That wiring harness appears factory and is underneath the steering column. I'll edit tonight or tomorrow with an additional photo to better display the location. I may need help making heads/tails of the wiring supplement.

[tiegsd]

Had same issue, similar symptoms. Ended up bypassing the clutch safety sw under the drivers hush panel, no issues since. That said, yours sounds a little more complicated. If i recall, the switch wiring goes to a relay, which picks up when the safety sw is actuated. Part of the starting circuit. Intermittent shutdowns sounds like a different issue.

[Tim555]

I am also experiencing an intermittent no-crank when hot issue. I want to rule out the clutch safety switch. When I have the issue and I push the clutch in and turn the key to start I get a voltage drop. If I do not have the clutch in and I turn the key to start I get a slight voltage increase. Am I correct to conclude that the clutch switch is working because the voltage drop when the clutch is in is due to current being sent to the starter, and the voltage rise when the clutch is not in is due to the accessories being turned off, but no current going to the starter?

Shop that sold me the car replaced the starter and it still has the no crank issue when it?s hot. I also noticed the voltage gauge dropping when the turn signal is on. Could it be a bad ground somewhere that only manifests itself when hot?

[mlipmd]

Are your battery connections clean and tight? What is the battery voltage?