Megasquirt? What's the Situation?

[Erik]

Having already gone through an ECM issue, and of course wondering about the DIS (anyone have a spare on their shelf they don't need?), threads related to these always end up with references to Megasquirt. However, I've yet to see a thread that goes into the whole process of swapping to it.

So, my questions are:

1) what's involved in doing the swap? How many hours for a competent mechanic to it?
2)Aside from the Megasquirt 3 (?) controller, what is needed to make this work?
3) What are the costs of getting everything?
4) What instrument panel functionality do we lose?
5) How is reliability of the system?
6) What questions do I not know to ask about it?

Looking forward to getting educated.

[Mikey]

I think RussMcB had one. You should reach out to him. Or call MegaSquirt directly.

[-=Jeff=-]

1) what's involved in doing the swap? How many hours for a competent mechanic to it?
To my knowledge the unit is supposed to be plug and play, but will require tuning.

2)Aside from the Megasquirt 3 (?) controller, what is needed to make this work?
Nothing I don't think


3) What are the costs of getting everything?
Cost of the unit $2000-$3000 plus the tuning hours


4) What instrument panel functionality do we lose?
all the fuel stuff (Avg, Instant, DTE)


5) How is reliability of the system?
The basic premise is used in a bunch of applications so I would expect it to be decent (Russ can answer that)


6) What questions do I not know to ask about it?

It does not replace the Ignition module, it uses the stock one

[Jagdpanzer]

http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/docs/mspnp_gP_zr9195.php


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[Erik]

I think RussMcB had one. You should reach out to him. Or call MegaSquirt directly.

Thanks.
Talking to Russ too. Pretty good feedback from him.

[Erik]

To my knowledge the unit is supposed to be plug and play, but will require tuning.

Nothing I don't think


Cost of the unit $2000-$3000 plus the tuning hours


all the fuel stuff (Avg, Instant, DTE)


The basic premise is used in a bunch of applications so I would expect it to be decent (Russ can answer that)


It does not replace the Ignition module, it uses the stock one

Thank you! That answers a lot. Not a bad solution to one area of ZR-1 issues.

[Erik]

http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/docs/mspnp_gP_zr9195.php


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

Good read. Thanks. That answers a lot. Good of Megasquirt to build this for us.

[Erik]

It does not replace the Ignition module, it uses the stock one

I'm a bit confused (not the first time). I see references to using Megasquirt to replace the DIS. How would that work?

[hin532]

I'm a bit confused (not the first time). I see references to using Megasquirt to replace the DIS. How would that work?



It is my understanding that with the mega squirt you can use the factory dis for plug and play operation. The mega squirt also has additional outputs that you could setup to run individual coils for each cylinder and not utilize the factory DIS and coils.

[Erik]

It is my understanding that with the mega squirt you can use the factory dis for plug and play operation. The mega squirt also has additional outputs that you could setup to run individual coils for each cylinder and not utilize the factory DIS and coils.

Thanks.
I thought I read something like that.

Gonna reach out to the good folks at Megasquirt for some clarification too.

[rkreigh]

base ms3 pro is about 1100 with the fly wiring that you need to install



you essentially take away all the engine management functions and there are issues with interfaces for mileage computer, security, ect...


gauges work fine. you for sure WANT to run coil on plug and I think the ecotec 4 turbo coils or the merc marine coils plug in perfectly


the megasquirt can drive the 16 injectors fine and has dual wideband, flex fuel capability, and a wide range of boost control and tuning features that make it a very good option for anyone that has "lost the dis"


the LT5 ignition system is quite good, and works fine, but since they are going up in price, the MS is a viable alternative. The raptor "plug and play" version retains the stock ignition system which I wasn't fond of as selling a "good DIS" will about pay off the megasquirt


I'm looking to do this, as the tuning opportunities are significant and the coil on plug is superior and much less hassle to maintain.


If anyone needs a DIS, reach out to me. I have one off my 95 and would for sure pass it on for the right price to a needy owner. Jerry is working on reverse engineering and will likely have a solution soon, and fortunately the DIS rarely fails. But when confronted with that, know that there are options!!!

[XfireZ51]

Ron,

Ur saying the Ecotec COP fit correctly in the plug well? U got part #s? Of course u?ll still need to do a crank trigger unless u r saying MS will use the LT-5 crank signal.

[LT5IROC]

The MS PRO natively reads the existing 8+1 crank signal.

[spork2367]

base ms3 pro is about 1100 with the fly wiring that you need to install

And just so everyone understands, that is the price to buy the ms3 pro and do all the work yourself.

The DIYautotune plug and play version is 2400-2700 dollars.

[-=Jeff=-]

And just so everyone understands, that is the price to buy the ms3 pro and do all the work yourself.

The DIYautotune plug and play version is 2400-2700 dollars.
Are they even advertising it as available?

[spork2367]

Are they even advertising it as available?

No, you have to reach out to them.

With some people asking almost 2k for reman. ECUs, it's only a matter of time until these get more popular.

[rkreigh]

Ron,

Ur saying the Ecotec COP fit correctly in the plug well? U got part #s? Of course u?ll still need to do a crank trigger unless u r saying MS will use the LT-5 crank signal.


regular ecotec turbo 4 coil. It sticks up just about 1/8 too tall so a rubber spacer would make it snug


the raptor plug and play version continues to use the DIS which is silly.


the MS3 pro will drive the injectors, coils, dual wb, alchy system, flex fuel, and just about anything you can imagine. You do sacrifice some minor stuff in the CCM like fuel mileage computer and security control (you can keep it!!) and this would be a full custom install that has not been done yet on a ZR-1. But it's fairly clear on cutting in the fly harness to take away all engine control from the stock ecm and turn off the codes in the memcal.



I would love to just do one standalone style without the DIS box as the dis alone would pay for the ms3 investment to get started.


If anyone is in serious need of a DIS, look me up, so I can get started.

[grahambehan]

There is a tt zr1 using ms3 to control engine,boost functions with the stock ecm keeping CCM functions happy.

Works great.

Graham

[Jagdpanzer]

There is a tt zr1 using ms3 to control engine,boost functions with the stock ecm keeping CCM functions happy.

Works great.

Graham

Graham,
Is the MS3 also taking over the DIS functions?

[grahambehan]

No DIS in place.

Graham

[rkreigh]

do tell!! who did the install. You KNOW I'm jonsing (for life it seems) to get my hands on a TT ZR-1


I think the MS3 Pro is in my future with COP


thanks for chiming in Graham, good to know that someone has already gone there!!


I'm wanting to do a MS3 pro on a c5 too. They even have a Micro squirt that will serve as a tranny controller for a 4l60 slushbox



the MS is getting more advanced all the time and doing very well in the turbo cars.



Look up a guy named Denmah on the forums and he pioneered the "sloppy mechanics" you tubers with some very good free tech to get you started on the MS3 pro


he's slapped some old truck motors together and slapped them in ugly old ford fairmonts and rustangs and gone very fast for very cheap.


You'd laugh at these hoopties until they spank your @$$ These are 8 and 9 second "truck bombs" that haul the mail. I used to laugh at them until they showed me tail lights in all my expensive stuff. Now I drank the cool aid and I'm cranking out turbo truck motors.


the little alum ls 4.8/5.3 block is pretty strong so I'll be trying one out in the c5 turbo car and go up to around 1200 from the 800 I'm at now.

[grahambehan]

LPE install

[tpepmeie]

The issue with a standalone on the LT5 is the shear number of outputs required to drive everything. I haven?t researched the MS3, but driving 16 injectors plus 8 individual coils, plus a 4-wire stepper, plus ..... there are a lot of outputs needed. You?re not likely to be able to do all of that with a budget ecu. Waste spark helps (reduces 4 outputs). You could conceivably run the injectors in parallel, and fire PRI and sec at the same time. Buts that?s a bigger current draw on the drivers. Inputs are never the limiting factor in my experience. You need to add up all the things (outputs) you need to control and find an ecu that has that capacity. There aren?t many.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[spork2367]

The issue with a standalone on the LT5 is the shear number of outputs required to drive everything. I haven?t researched the MS3, but driving 16 injectors plus 8 individual coils, plus a 4-wire stepper, plus ..... there are a lot of outputs needed. You?re not likely to be able to do all of that with a budget ecu. Waste spark helps (reduces 4 outputs). You could conceivably run the injectors in parallel, and fire PRI and sec at the same time. Buts that?s a bigger current draw on the drivers. Inputs are never the limiting factor in my experience. You need to add up all the things (outputs) you need to control and find an ecu that has that capacity. There aren?t many.

And with the extremely low DIS failure rate, there is no great reason to replace it. The only thing the current DIYautotune MS3 pro needs to get is the dash coms figured out.

[tpepmeie]

Just to summarize, the LT5 ECU controls the following outputs. Anyone considering an aftermarket unit should be sure all of these (at least the ones that are important to you) are supported.

8 x Primary injector drivers (low-side)
4 x Secondary injector drivers (low-side), if using the OE secondary relay modules, otherwise 8 for individual injector control

1 x Ignition "bypass" signal to factory ign module
1 x Electronic Spark Control (timing signal) to factory ign module

4 x IAC Stepper motor
1 x Vehicle Speed output (low-side PWM)
2 x Fuel Pump drives (high-side)
1 x Shift Lamp (low-side)
1 x "1-4" upshift relay (low-side)
1 x "1-4" upshift lamp (low-side)
1 x AIR injection motor relay (low-side)
2 x fan control (low-side)
1 x Cannister Purge (low-side)
1 x Malfunction Indicator Lamp (low-side)
1 x A/C Clutch (low-side)
1 x Secondary Port throttle Solenoid (low-side)
1 x AIR injection solenoid (low-side)

2 x Serial Communications

Total of 34. If you want to eliminate the stock Ignition Module, which it seems most do, add 2 to run wasted-spark, or add 6 to run COP/CNP.

From what I can tell, the MS3 can only drive a max of 12 injectors, so they must be using the stock secondary injector relays. And we know they are using the stock Ignition module, although it can run up to 8 ignition coils directly it says. They must be using the full H-bridge to drive the IAC stepper motor.

I can't find a pinout for the MS3, so I'm honestly not sure how many outputs it can drive. My point is, the LT5 consumes a ton of outputs, even if you run it in "stock" fuel/ignition config. And up to 10 more outputs if you want to do 16 sequential injectors, and 8 COP ignition. That's very hard to find in a budget ECU.

Todd Pepmeier, Pepmeier Engine Development (pepmeierengines@yahoo.com)

[tpepmeie]

oh, and if not using the stock IM, you'll need another low-side driver to drive the tachometer.

[spork2367]

I can't find a pinout for the MS3, so I'm honestly not sure how many outputs it can drive. My point is, the LT5 consumes a ton of outputs, even if you run it in "stock" fuel/ignition config. And up to 10 more outputs if you want to do 16 sequential injectors, and 8 COP ignition. That's very hard to find in a budget ECU.

Todd Pepmeier, Pepmeier Engine Development (pepmeierengines@yahoo.com)

MS3-Pro Hardware features:
Freescale MC9S12X 16 bit, 50 MHz asymmetrical dual core processor
10 saturated injector drivers
8 logic level ignition outputs
3 high current (5 amp) general purpose outputs ? 2 can be reconfigured as additional injector drivers, and all can be used as PWM outputs
3 medium current (3 amp), high frequency general purpose outputs
All unused injector and ignition outputs can be used as spare on/off or other outputs. This ECU has a LOT of I/O!
1 stepper H-bridge driver
Camshaft and crankshaft differential inputs ? supports VR, Hall effect, and optical input
12 volt tach output
Fuel pump output
8 analog inputs (5 dedicated sensor inputs, 3 spare/general purpose)
4 spare digital on/off inputs
3 spare digital frequency inputs
2 knock sensor inputs
RS232, USB 2.0, and CAN communication
Onboard 8 gigabyte SD card for internal data logging
Internal ECU temperature sensor
Real time clock
Temperature range: -30 to +80 degrees C (-40 to +85 without battery for real time clock)

[tpepmeie]

Curious if any of the guys who bought one of these got the pinout along with it? I haven't matched up the I/O spork provided, but on the surface it doesn't seem like enough outputs. A LT5 version pinout would help, but I'm guessing there had to be some output devices not supported (AIR, CCP, CARS, etc.), which is understandable.
Todd

[rkreigh]

And with the extremely low DIS failure rate, there is no great reason to replace it. The only thing the current DIYautotune MS3 pro needs to get is the dash coms figured out.


the reason for doing this isn't just to replace the DIS, it's to offer better control over the engine, dual widebands, flex fuel, and superior ignition. The stock system will do everything needed, but the aftermarket ecms are much faster and offer many superior tuning capabilities.


Like the harley guys say, if I have to explain you wouldn't understand

[spork2367]

the reason for doing this isn't just to replace the DIS, it's to offer better control over the engine, dual widebands, flex fuel, and superior ignition. The stock system will do everything needed, but the aftermarket ecms are much faster and offer many superior tuning capabilities.


Like the harley guys say, if I have to explain you wouldn't understand

I think maybe you're misunderstanding my post. The ms3pro is fantastic and supports the things you listed. You just don't gain enough removing the DIS to make it worthwhile, even with the ms3pro. Unless you're planning on building a flat plane crank hill climber..., anything more than the ms3pro is lipstick on a pig. The basic architecture and limitations of the engine just don't warrant a 4-10k custom ecu.

I run the manufacturing engineering department in a facility that designs and builds our own engines. From air cooled horizontally opposed carbureted engines to mechanical fuel injected engines, to liquid cooled 4 cylinder direct injection diesel engines to 2 stroke multi-fuel single cylinder drone engines, to our certified TEO-540-C1A electronically controlled engines with an ECU that rivals the cost of your ZR-1. I understand exactly what you can do with expensive ECUs from arguably some of the worlds best ECU manufacturers.

[rkreigh]

I think maybe you're misunderstanding my post. The ms3pro is fantastic and supports the things you listed. You just don't gain enough removing the DIS to make it worthwhile, even with the ms3pro. Unless you're planning on building a flat plane crank hill climber..., anything more than the ms3pro is lipstick on a pig. The basic architecture and limitations of the engine just don't warrant a 4-10k custom ecu.

I run the manufacturing engineering department in a facility that designs and builds our own engines. From air cooled horizontally opposed carbureted engines to mechanical fuel injected engines, to liquid cooled 4 cylinder direct injection diesel engines to 2 stroke multi-fuel single cylinder drone engines, to our certified TEO-540-C1A electronically controlled engines with an ECU that rivals the cost of your ZR-1. I understand exactly what you can do with expensive ECUs from arguably some of the worlds best ECU manufacturers.




dayuum, I'm sorry, didn't mean to come across too nasty. I'm trying to prep the car for a twin turbo setup and the MS3 pro will work. secret I believe is to keep the stocker ecm, and just take away the engine management functions cutting into the wiring like we do on the c5


it's not trivial, but the MS3pro with a standar wiring harness starts around 1300 so it's not super expensive.


For my "use case" I have a Haltech platinum s2000 ecm with dual wb and 8 channel egt that actually would be a better candidate, and fully capable of running the engine, drive 8 coils, and do everything I need. Plus it's paid for.



Soooo what I really need is someone who undertands the wiring like the back of their hand. The tech support from Haltech is fantastic and they provide exactly how to "cut it in" and piggy back the haltech along side the factory ecm


but with the new gauge packages, and things available, not really sure I care about any of the stocker gauges. The virtual stuff when setup right provides all critical engine info at a glance along with logging and playback functions.



very cool stuff. see the new haltech nexus. they are doing some pretty innovative stuff with the can bus and power management now.


my old haltech also has an amp driver box so I can control the alchy injection pump. I'm looking to stuff some alchy shots down the old gals throat and do dual fuel. pump gas for most off boost and alchy for everything above say around 4 psi or so.


Might not do intercooling as the alchy does a good job of that and it saves some hassle and plumbing.


So here's a relatively "easy" experiment that I'm wanting to try.


Leave the stock ecm dis and all that stuff "as is" with a custom tune and "layer in the sweetness" of another set of injectors running e85 served up by a hobbs switch triggering the other dedicated ecm to come online


both tunes will have to be manipulated together but it's essentially just an (AIC - additional injector controller) which is pretty easy to do with a custom intake.


So I'm looking to take a baby step toward the twin turbo with the right octane fuel to feed the beast and not be quite so complicated to lash up.


the two computers don't know about each other so the stock driveability and ignition control isn't impacted at all.


and when the boost comes on, a stiff drink is served up.



I'd never cut up my bifurcation intake that lpe did for me (maybe it was graham!!_) but it can be done pretty easy with a high rise hood and my hood needs to go on a diet (got a big scratch on it too@)


just musing a bit, maybe graham will chime in on tuning the TT with the Linc AIC setup As I recall they let the stock ecm control the primary (like in key off mode) and had the link do the squirts on the big side with a larger injector


smart man that graham might be time to dust off some of that wisdom


the integration is SOOOO much easier and the functionality is what I'm after the dual wb and egts to help trim each cyl and give it what it wants and needs


can't do that with a stocker ecm


and you guys are right, the DIS panic is over rated, they don't fail often


Only dis issue I had was with my old "wolf" 93 LPE 475 car, it had upgraded rods, pistons with the stocker liners and was a joy to drive


that car had to sit outside and the dis would code and complain and the car would run like crap until it warmed up


if I kept in the garage it never had the issue It was just hating the other 2 Zs that I had at the time that were the garage queens


ohhh to go back to those days when 3 Zs were mine!! I took 2 of them out and "racing against my own car" with my buddy driving. DRM vs 95 with 4.10s and headers


dead heat with the win going to the best bulb We hot lapped those cars until we got too tired to make any more runs

[XfireZ51]

I would still like to quantify if there is anything to be gained w CnP on an LT5 w typical mods, ie cams, porting exhaust.

[spork2367]

I would still like to quantify if there is anything to be gained w CnP on an LT5 w typical mods, ie cams, porting exhaust.

Short answer...no.

[Karl]

dayuum, I'm sorry, didn't mean to come across too nasty. I'm trying to prep the car for a twin turbo setup and the MS3 pro will work. secret I believe is to keep the stocker ecm, and just take away the engine management functions cutting into the wiring like we do on the c5


it's not trivial, but the MS3pro with a standar wiring harness starts around 1300 so it's not super expensive.


For my "use case" I have a Haltech platinum s2000 ecm with dual wb and 8 channel egt that actually would be a better candidate, and fully capable of running the engine, drive 8 coils, and do everything I need. Plus it's paid for.



Soooo what I really need is someone who undertands the wiring like the back of their hand. The tech support from Haltech is fantastic and they provide exactly how to "cut it in" and piggy back the haltech along side the factory ecm


but with the new gauge packages, and things available, not really sure I care about any of the stocker gauges. The virtual stuff when setup right provides all critical engine info at a glance along with logging and playback functions.



very cool stuff. see the new haltech nexus. they are doing some pretty innovative stuff with the can bus and power management now.


my old haltech also has an amp driver box so I can control the alchy injection pump. I'm looking to stuff some alchy shots down the old gals throat and do dual fuel. pump gas for most off boost and alchy for everything above say around 4 psi or so.


Might not do intercooling as the alchy does a good job of that and it saves some hassle and plumbing.


So here's a relatively "easy" experiment that I'm wanting to try.


Leave the stock ecm dis and all that stuff "as is" with a custom tune and "layer in the sweetness" of another set of injectors running e85 served up by a hobbs switch triggering the other dedicated ecm to come online


both tunes will have to be manipulated together but it's essentially just an (AIC - additional injector controller) which is pretty easy to do with a custom intake.


So I'm looking to take a baby step toward the twin turbo with the right octane fuel to feed the beast and not be quite so complicated to lash up.


the two computers don't know about each other so the stock driveability and ignition control isn't impacted at all.


and when the boost comes on, a stiff drink is served up.



I'd never cut up my bifurcation intake that lpe did for me (maybe it was graham!!_) but it can be done pretty easy with a high rise hood and my hood needs to go on a diet (got a big scratch on it too@)


just musing a bit, maybe graham will chime in on tuning the TT with the Linc AIC setup As I recall they let the stock ecm control the primary (like in key off mode) and had the link do the squirts on the big side with a larger injector


smart man that graham might be time to dust off some of that wisdom


the integration is SOOOO much easier and the functionality is what I'm after the dual wb and egts to help trim each cyl and give it what it wants and needs


can't do that with a stocker ecm


and you guys are right, the DIS panic is over rated, they don't fail often


Only dis issue I had was with my old "wolf" 93 LPE 475 car, it had upgraded rods, pistons with the stocker liners and was a joy to drive


that car had to sit outside and the dis would code and complain and the car would run like crap until it warmed up


if I kept in the garage it never had the issue It was just hating the other 2 Zs that I had at the time that were the garage queens


ohhh to go back to those days when 3 Zs were mine!! I took 2 of them out and "racing against my own car" with my buddy driving. DRM vs 95 with 4.10s and headers


dead heat with the win going to the best bulb We hot lapped those cars until we got too tired to make any more runs


Are you going to respond to me?????????????????

[XfireZ51]

Short answer...no.

Please elaborate on your experience w this. Do go on.

[spork2367]

Please elaborate on your experience w this. Do go on.

I could counter this with a question to you. What do you think you would gain with coil on plug? I'm not sure what elaboration you want.

The ignition is not a limiting factor on making power within the realm of what is considered standard modifications on an LT5. You are not limited by the ability to modify the ignition outputs.

These engines are not known for weak ignition, or a high rate of coil failure due to heat, or any issues you might alleviate by moving the coil closer to the plug or out in the open.

The megasquirt is capable of handling ignition timing changes for boosted applications.

The only real advantage would be the ability to adjust timing by cylinder, which isn't going to do much for LT5 people at the power levels we're looking at. You would have additional diagnostics ability by utilizing sequential fuel injection in conjunction with CoP, but that's a nice to have, not a necessity. You could possibly do some fine tuning to decrease emissions as well, but I don't think that's a big ask as a car in good condition passes current emissions standards.

I think there is a general misconception about what drove OEMs to CoP to begin with. Reliability, fuel efficiency and emissions. Not power.

[XfireZ51]

My response to you was an straight up inquiry.Its unfortunate if you took it as anything else. I was simply asking for any evidence or experience you may have for your statement. If you have either or both I would be appreciative of your sharing it. Could save me time and effort.

I could counter this with a question to you. What do you think you would gain with coil on plug? I'm not sure what elaboration you want.

The ignition is not a limiting factor on making power within the realm of what is considered standard modifications on an LT5. You are not limited by the ability to modify the ignition outputs.

These engines are not known for weak ignition, or a high rate of coil failure due to heat, or any issues you might alleviate by moving the coil closer to the plug or out in the open.

The megasquirt is capable of handling ignition timing changes for boosted applications.

The only real advantage would be the ability to adjust timing by cylinder, which isn't going to do much for LT5 people at the power levels we're looking at. You would have additional diagnostics ability by utilizing sequential fuel injection in conjunction with CoP, but that's a nice to have, not a necessity. You could possibly do some fine tuning to decrease emissions as well, but I don't think that's a big ask as a car in good condition passes current emissions standards.

I think there is a general misconception about what drove OEMs to CoP to begin with. Reliability, fuel efficiency and emissions. Not power.

[tpepmeie]

The ignition is not a limiting factor on making power within the realm of what is considered standard modifications on an LT5. You are not limited by the ability to modify the ignition outputs.

These engines are not known for weak ignition, or a high rate of coil failure due to heat, or any issues you might alleviate by moving the coil closer to the plug or out in the open.


I think there is a general misconception about what drove OEMs to CoP to begin with. Reliability, fuel efficiency and emissions. Not power.

I tend to agree with all of this. To be fair, I have not done back-to-back testing to prove it (nor has anybody else). However, I have never found the ignition system lacking or causing a misfire in any of the builds I have done and tested. The two-tower coils seem to have plenty of energy, at least for N/A builds. I am not aware of any ignition related misfires on the few boosted cars out there. I suppose a rich methanol mixture might benefit from higher spark energy, but nobody has a methanol LT5....

Aside from the emissions and diagnostic benefits noted above, the only other compelling reason to go to individual coil ignition is a situation where the engine speed is high enough (and coil dwell long enough) that there is not enough time to fully charge the coils. That isn't remotely a problem for the LT5 coils at the engine speeds we run.

Apologies to the OP for getting this thread slightly off his original topic. Always happy to discuss further in another thread, or this one too.
Todd

[rkreigh]

you can make all the power you want with all stock stuff, no need to ever innovate or use faster processors, EGT, dual WB or tune by cyl, just keep the car stock if that floats your boat, not me.



when you start to increase cyl pressures, run E85, and push the limits, I'd rather have a more advanced engine management system than what GM did back in the 80s



Nothing wrong with it, but it's not up to par with current technology on many levels.


the stock system has been proven to support up to 700 hp and works just fine up to that and beyond.


but there are NO safeguards on par with what the MS3 pro or other systems or advanced individual cyl tuning like aftermarket systems have the ability to do. Integration will be a huge PITA and indeed NOT worth it to most. for normally aspirated, clearly gains would be not worth the squeeze.



Tuning with the stock stuff is not a limiting factor until you get to the limits which are beyond where most have been.


Thanks for your thoughts.

[XfireZ51]

Ron,

Our community hasn?t gotten to where it has w 30yo technology by not pushing the envelope or adhering to common wisdom. The LT5 is very much a DIY project which is one of the characteristics that attracted me to it. And our ZRs are very much an expression of ourselves especially on the Registry.

[spork2367]

you can make all the power you want with all stock stuff, no need to ever innovate or use faster processors, EGT, dual WB or tune by cyl, just keep the car stock if that floats your boat, not me.



when you start to increase cyl pressures, run E85, and push the limits, I'd rather have a more advanced engine management system than what GM did back in the 80s



Nothing wrong with it, but it's not up to par with current technology on many levels.


the stock system has been proven to support up to 700 hp and works just fine up to that and beyond.


but there are NO safeguards on par with what the MS3 pro or other systems or advanced individual cyl tuning like aftermarket systems have the ability to do. Integration will be a huge PITA and indeed NOT worth it to most. for normally aspirated, clearly gains would be not worth the squeeze.



Tuning with the stock stuff is not a limiting factor until you get to the limits which are beyond where most have been.


Thanks for your thoughts.

The thread is a little convoluted with the number of questions.

The only thing I was responding to with my last response was: "I would still like to quantify if there is anything to be gained w CnP on an LT5 w typical mods, ie cams, porting exhaust."

And the short answer is still no. E85, alternative fuels, boost, and altered architecture are not "typical mods" in the LT5 world.

I'm running my 1990 on an ms3pro. There is no need to replace the DIS and stock coils to do any of the things you listed aside from individual cylinder tuning, which for this engine will gain you little to nothing.

That's not to say you shouldn't do it, but it would be one of those things to do just because you could, not because of measurable benefits.

[rkreigh]

not a hp gain I agree. I don't know what the DIS limits are for spark but they are clearly north of 700 hp and a select few ventured beyond that.


My desire is this,


1. easier maint, coil on plug, no spark plug wires or plenum pull
2. better monitoring and tune on the fly with the o2 (and egt if you like) - stock system just doesn't have these inputs. Even with a 12.5 to 1 LT5 get a bad batch of fuel and you can rattle it's brains out. The monitoring and active alerts like chopping fuel, spark or any combination there of based on a bad plug, injector, or coil. Worth it to save some pricey LT5 ponies based on a failure issue.
3. flex fuel. E85 won't gain much if anything on a stock lt5 but up around 12.5 compression or clearly with boost, flex fuel makes sense.
4. twin turbo. the stock ecm for sure can do it (and has) but for all the reasons above I would want the "safe guards" and faster response times.




The C5 has very similar challenges. I'm going to go with a haltech platinum on that project as I've had it laying around for years (bought it then couldn't afford to deploy it) It's "aged out" technology wise compared to new Holley and even the Nexus Haltech, but it's a very capable unit that can do dual WB, 8 channel EGT, and has a driver box control for running an alchy injection pump, and flex fuel sensor ready.


On both my c5s, I boost them till they break (and have broke) and try to just build stronger next go.



FYSA the new iron block truck motors with a stock block have gone past 2000 hp so the ICE might be on last legs, but they are stout ones.