Engine oil (for european cars)

[max76]

Hi guys,
it's time to change the engine oil on my 1990 zr1.
I live in Italy, what brand/type of oil i can use for my lt5?
What are the specs that i need to see on the bottle?
Now i 'm using a common 10w40 oil, my car have very low mileage (about 25500miles).
Thanks in advance
Max

[32valvZ]

Amsoil 10W40 with higher Zinc content. Should be able to get it sent to you.

[S.hafsmo]

I ordered Amsoil from Poland through ebay.

[Top Toy]

I use Amsoil Z-Rod, 10W-30. Includes anti-corrosion additives for cars that sit for extended periods between drives as well as high zinc for flat tappet engines.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[max76]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/800x600-1/80-353a8770_2463_4a3d_bd53_860920b2b618_1__215baaf45f a8310b57b69078bd80040f5003d62d.jpg

Amsoil 10w-40 Recommendation/Analysis (http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/articles/Modern%20Motor%20Oil%20and%20the%20LT5%20Engine.pd f)

Amsoil 10w-40 (https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/premium-protection-10w-40-synthetic-motor-oil/)


Hi Dynomite
so, in Italy we can find these kind of mobil oil:

-Mobil Super 2000 X1 10W-40
-Mobil Super 2000 Formula P 10W-40

I have the pdf of these two mobil's oils....can you say me whats is the best choise?
Thankks in advance...

[max76]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/800x600-1/80-353a8770_2463_4a3d_bd53_860920b2b618_1__215baaf45f a8310b57b69078bd80040f5003d62d.jpg

Amsoil 10w-40 Recommendation/Analysis (http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/articles/Modern%20Motor%20Oil%20and%20the%20LT5%20Engine.pd f)

Amsoil 10w-40 (https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/premium-protection-10w-40-synthetic-motor-oil/)

Also this Mobil 1 5w30 is available:

-Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30

[max76]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/300x600-1/80-amsoil10w_40oil_zps1b85b817_1__41d3919364091164299 d0398c88b0200970babe8.jpg

I use Amsoil 10w-40.....you need the combination of Zinc and Phospherous (ZDDP)...

Amsoil 10w-40 Recommendation/Analysis (http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/articles/Modern%20Motor%20Oil%20and%20the%20LT5%20Engine.pd f)

(Marc Haibeck)........."API SG oil uses zinc and phosphorus as EP (Extreme Pressure) anti-wear additives. The two additives are often referred to as a package designated as ZDDP".


The SG API in modern oils is not mentioned ... there are more recent specifications such as API SL / SM / SN
I want to know if one of the Mobil oil that i posted is a good choise, because buy the amsoil with shipping and duties is too much expensive.
Have you ever heard of ceramic power liquid?
https://www.ceramicpowerliquid.com/
It is a treatment for the engine that lasts up to 60000 miles. It is a nanotechnological product based on ceramic particles

[grahambehan]

Mobil oil specs in attached pdf

The LT5 was initially developed on 10 30 M1 then SFCD mineral oil then back to M1 for the 93 my, sg grade.

Graham

[max76]

Mobil oil specs in attached pdf

The LT5 was initially developed on 10 30 M1 then SFCD mineral oil then back to M1 for the 93 my, sg grade.

Graham

Thank you so much Graham..this Is a very good PDF...now i can see of here in europe there Is a high zddp in mobil oil that i can find Easy...
Thanks again

[max76]

Ok guys...
reading the mobil oil product guide i can see that the MOBIL 1 ESP FORMULA 5W30 is a good choice and we can find it easy in Italy. Have 800 phosphorus and 900 Zinc, also the price is good...Here in europe, Mobil, have different type of oil that in the USA.
This is what we have for MOBIL1:
https://www.mobil.it/it-IT/products/engine-oils/mobil-1/

what do you think of my choice?

[grahambehan]

Yes that will be fine for your LT5.

Graham

[Dynomite]

Yes that will be fine for your LT5.

Graham

Hmmmmm.....:p

It seems Mobile 1 10W-30 being fine is debatable......phosphorus 800 and Zinc 900...
I am sticking with Amsoil 10W-40 with Phosphorus 1265 ppm, Zinc 1378 ppm.
I suppose it depends considerably where your RPMs are most of the time among other issues...

I suppose it also depends on how the catalytic converters behave with various oil chemistry.

[grahambehan]

Interesting opinion, what specific design parameters of the LT5 make it require high zinc and phosphorus.

graham

[max76]

Hmmmmm.....:p

It seems Mobile 1 10W-30 being fine is debatable......phosphorus 800 and Zinc 900...
I am sticking with Amsoil 10W-40 with Phosphorus 1265 ppm, Zinc 1378 ppm.
I suppose it depends considerably where your RPMs are most of the time among other issues...

I suppose it also depends on how the catalytic converters behave with various oil chemistry.


Unfortunately here in Italy we must choose between few mobil1 oil type. I usually use the zr1 with normal drive, never track day since 2007...Now i'm using a common 10w40 oil...
So, i decide to use the mobil 1 5w30 ESP FORMULA that's available here in europe, and i want to put the "Ceramic Power Liquid" treatment.
By doing this anti-friction treatment I will be protected as if I had put amsoil and it lasts 100000km

[Dynomite]

Interesting opinion, what specific design parameters of the LT5 make it require high zinc and phosphorus.

graham

The design issues that come to mind are valve spring pressure (including variable spring load and variable Valve and Lifter inertial load) and all at up to 7,000+ engine RPM.

You have the "Theory".....I have the "Cams"......

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/500x500/80-img_1289_1993051666c2401299ee104d02746a4ed5dc43cc. jpeghttps://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/500x500/80-img_1292_df6cf526f260c52df0cf242423dae28637964776. jpeg

Just being on the safe side given all the Expertise and Discussions regarding LT5 Engine Oil on this and other Forums :handshak:

[grahambehan]

Once again, interesting.
The LT5 has relatively low contact pressure at the cam/tappet interface <120,000 psi with stock parts. Spring loads are around 100 to 115 on the seat with 235 to 250 open, with stock lift. Whereas the flat tappet engines that require extra additives are typically between 200,000psi to 300,000 psi.
7000 Rpm is not really high rpm, mean piston speeds less than 22m/sec, once again with stock parts.
Oh and I might have seen a cam or two over the last 33 yrs.

Graham

[spork2367]

Once again, interesting.
The LT5 has relatively low contact pressure at the cam/tappet interface <120,000 psi with stock parts. Spring loads are around 100 to 115 on the seat with 235 to 250 open, with stock lift. Whereas the flat tappet engines that require extra additives are typically between 200,000psi to 300,000 psi.
7000 Rpm is not really high rpm, mean piston speeds less than 22m/sec, once again with stock parts.
Oh and I might have seen a cam or two over the last 33 yrs.

Graham

Actually, none of the recommendations from legitimate sources that I've found really specify the use of high zddp/zdtp oils based on cam lobe contact pressure. Most are based on the use of flat tappet cams in general. The critical factor for the LT5 is the relatively long cranking time before oil pressure is generated. That zinc and phosphorus is the only thing protecting those surfaces before oil is supplied. The longer a car sits, the less oil remains on those surfaces. Some of our cars sit for extended periods of time.

The other place the zddp protects is during high RPM runs where the oil film strength may be at its limits or exceeded.

Even companies like Valvoline make vague comments like "The controversy exists as a result of many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts belief that lower levels of zinc in API SN and SM motor oils can cause excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. They hold this belief despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible."

Yes..."intended." We know for a fact that an oil with zddp provides more protection than an equivalent oil without it. That is chemistry and physics. So it comes down to whether or not a person believes that all the new more modern additives and polar adhesion innovations trump the zddp. Most people, including those very knowledgeable on the subject say no. Let's face it, the zddp wasn't removed because there were better chemical compounds, they were removed due to their suspected long term damage to catalytic converters and the manufacturer's necessity to guarantee those components for the life of the vehicle.

I am the internal quality manager at a facility that builds flat tappet, pushrod, aircraft engines. They live their entire life below 3500 rpms and we still recommend that people run a zddp additive in every engine we build.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/lycoiladditive.php?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkN_Xn_fY5wIVh obACh0xDgYXEAQYASABEgKMUPD_BwE

[grahambehan]

Actually, none of the recommendations from legitimate sources that I've found really specify the use of high zddp/zdtp oils based on cam lobe contact pressure. Most are based on the use of flat tappet cams in general. The critical factor for the LT5 is the relatively long cranking time before oil pressure is generated. That zinc and phosphorus is the only thing protecting those surfaces before oil is supplied. The longer a car sits, the less oil remains on those surfaces. Some of our cars sit for extended periods of time.

The other place the zddp protects is during high RPM runs where the oil film strength may be at its limits or exceeded.

Even companies like Valvoline make vague comments like "The controversy exists as a result of many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts belief that lower levels of zinc in API SN and SM motor oils can cause excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. They hold this belief despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible."

Yes..."intended." We know for a fact that an oil with zddp provides more protection than an equivalent oil without it. That is chemistry and physics. So it comes down to whether or not a person believes that all the new more modern additives and polar adhesion innovations trump the zddp. Most people, including those very knowledgeable on the subject say no. Let's face it, the zddp wasn't removed because there were better chemical compounds, they were removed due to their suspected long term damage to catalytic converters and the manufacturer's necessity to guarantee those components for the life of the vehicle.

I am the internal quality manager at a facility that builds flat tappet, pushrod, aircraft engines. They live their entire life below 3500 rpms and we still recommend that people run a zddp additive in every engine we build.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/lycoiladditive.php?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkN_Xn_fY5wIVh obACh0xDgYXEAQYASABEgKMUPD_BwE

Thanks for your input

Since contact pressure is the main driving force in terms of film shear and therefore wear, it is very iimportant.

The LT5 has some advantages with respect to retention of lubrication at star up since it has an iron to iron contact at the cam to tappet interface.

You would be surprised at the amount of oil retention at this area even after years of standing idle.

If the oil film is broken down at a bearing interface it is due to poor design or operating outside design parameters, so I understand placing as many band aid as possible.

The original question was pertaining to the use of a certain oil in a stock LT5 with 25 k miles, in the context of the question the answer is yes.

Now if we wish to discuss modified engines, extreme use or other extenuating circumstances, then the answer may be different.

At the end of day there are many opinions, all I have is facts having evaluated and reported on most of the lt5 engines following many very arduous durability tests that led us to release for production in 1990 and 1993 MY.

Graham

[Ccmano]

:happy1:
H

[grahambehan]

Hey, save some of that popcorn for me would ya.

Thanks

Graham

[spork2367]

Thanks for your input

Since contact pressure is the main driving force in terms of film shear and therefore wear, it is very iimportant.

It's important, but even if the film shear strength isn't exceeded, the engine still experiences wear. This isn't a question of immediate engine failure, it's about long term wear.

The LT5 has some advantages with respect to retention of lubrication at star up since it has an iron to iron contact at the cam to tappet interface.

You would be surprised at the amount of oil retention at this area even after years of standing idle.

I've torn apart dozens of old junkyard engines, including several LT5's that sat on pallets for years. So I'm pretty aware of how much oil is retained and where. The fact is, while that provides protection against oxidation, it provides very little protection against scuffing that occurs prior to full oil pressure/flow. That is one of the primary reasons zddp, zdtp, and molybdenum were added to engine oil.

If the oil film is broken down at a bearing interface it is due to poor design or operating outside design parameters, so I understand placing as many band aid as possible.

There are dozens of real world conditions that lead to a breakdown of the hydrodynamic load capacity of an engine oiling system. Cold starts, excessively cold engine oil, imperfections (within spec) of cam grinds, imperfections in engine bearings, contaminates in engine oil, short term oil starvation due to g-forces, to name a few. Obviously we would like to make the oiling system as robust as possible. Especially for a vehicle that has limited replacement parts. High zddp oil is much cheaper than a set of cams.

The original question was pertaining to the use of a certain oil in a stock LT5 with 25 k miles, in the context of the question the answer is yes.

In that sense, he could use Italian walmart oil and his engine isn't going to fail due to oil

Now if we wish to discuss modified engines, extreme use or other extenuating circumstances, then the answer may be different.

At the end of day there are many opinions, all I have is facts having evaluated and reported on most of the lt5 engines following many very arduous durability tests that led us to release for production in 1990 and 1993 MY.

Graham

I'm in no way questioning your knowledge of the LT5. You've likely forgotten more about the LT5 than I've ever known/will know.

That being said, I work for a aircraft piston engine manufacturer that has produced flat tappet engines for 90 years. I manage quality, including our reliability engineer. There is a reason we recommend zddp additive for every engine we produce. There is a reason we use molybdenum assembly lube when building engines. There is a reason we spent millions of dollars perfecting DLC coating on our lifter faces. Engines wear regardless of whether design parameters are exceeded. They wear regardless of the performance level of the engine. We have a lab that exceeds that of most tier one automotive manufacturing facilities. We have done our due diligence on cam/tappet wear.

The fact is, the engine oil specified for the LT5 that was produced after 1996 has less zddp than the engine oil produced prior to that. Will an LT5 run with lower zddp content oil fail immediately...no. Will it fail after 200,000 miles...no. (at least not due to oil). But all else being equal, an engine that has been run with high zddp oil, over time, will show measurably less wear than one run with low zddp oil. That is based on 90 years of reliability data, not my opinion as a shade tree mechanic.

[Ccmano]

Wait... wait... I need more :happy1:
H

[grahambehan]

Thanks again for your input.
So yes we agree that an lt5 is capable of 200k miles plus.
Yes Walmart does have good oil, that's were I get Mobil 1 from too.

So as we developed the Lt5 we did see many failures of virtually every major part of the engine, this resulted in material, design and manufacturing changes, as happens in most development programs.

With the exception of cold start, although the are various strategies for that, I would suggest that the balance of your wear comments are design and manufacturing issues, eg cam irregularities even though within tolerance.

DLC is a great aid, although sometimes a little finicky to perfect, I spent a fair amount of time with Argonne Labs back in the day doing just that.

I am in absolute agreement with you some mechanisms within some engines under certain operating conditions not only benefit from, but also need heavy amounts of additives.

Although having examined/measured lots of LT5 engines following 200K miles and other durability tests I will stand by my original statement.

Btw I have always found all engine designs interesting, given there differing design criteria, depending on application, also their longevity of use.

Graham.

[Dynomite]

...........Although having examined/measured lots of LT5 engines following 200K miles and other durability tests I will stand by my original statement.

Graham.

I assume your examinations included the Chain Guides/Facings........
At 200K miles inspections, what is your assessment of the durability of Chain Guide Facings?

I know this may depend on the oil used and oil change mileage....Lets not debate that for the moment :D
What were the engine oils used and what was the oil change mileage (in general).
I am assuming for a well maintained LT5 it is easily a 200K mile engine...... :)

Thank you for your very informative discussions :thumbsup::happy1:

And thank you spork2367 for your technical Analysis :thumbsup:

[Paul Workman]

I'm in no way questioning your knowledge of the LT5. You've likely forgotten more about the LT5 than I've ever known/will know.

That being said, I work for a aircraft piston engine manufacturer that has produced flat tappet engines for 90 years. I manage quality, including our reliability engineer. There is a reason we recommend zddp additive for every engine we produce. There is a reason we use molybdenum assembly lube when building engines. There is a reason we spent millions of dollars perfecting DLC coating on our lifter faces. Engines wear regardless of whether design parameters are exceeded. They wear regardless of the performance level of the engine. We have a lab that exceeds that of most tier one automotive manufacturing facilities. We have done our due diligence on cam/tappet wear.

The fact is, the engine oil specified for the LT5 that was produced after 1996 has less zddp than the engine oil produced prior to that. Will an LT5 run with lower zddp content oil fail immediately...no. Will it fail after 200,000 miles...no. (at least not due to oil). But all else being equal, an engine that has been run with high zddp oil, over time, will show measurably less wear than one run with low zddp oil. That is based on 90 years of reliability data, not my opinion as a shade tree mechanic.

Cut n pasted this in my ZR-1 LUBRICATION file! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Dynomite]

Cut n pasted this in my ZR-1 LUBRICATION file! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

The Discussion was very Credible from all participants and is now in Post 6 of "Solutions" The Importance of ZDDP Debate (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=304724) under ENGINE LUBRICATION SYSTEM :thumbsup:

[1977CamaroZ28]

Hello to everybody!

I can't put more technical information about the best LT5 oil, but I think I can help Max76 with the special problems to find good oils in Europe for our beloved ZR-1's.

Here in Spain, we have a specialists in ZR-1 with a big repair shop, members of ZR-1 Net Registry too. They recommended me to use Mobil 1 5W30 or 5W50 depending on the way you use the car. Normal/Tourist use (5W30) or hard use including track days or hard mountain/highway drive (5W50).

Since 2.014 I'm using Mobil 1 5W50 with a very low oil consumption and I'm very confident on it. I use to drive 4.000 kilometers (2500 miles) per year and I change the oil every 18 months and the oil comes so clear similar to new.

My Zr-1 has 79.000 kilometers (49.000 miles).

All the best from Spain to all the ZR-1 community!!

Marcos Gil.
1.990 ZR-1
#2342#

[grahambehan]

I assume your examinations included the Chain Guides/Facings........
At 200K miles inspections, what is your assessment of the durability of Chain Guide Facings?

I know this may depend on the oil used and oil change mileage....Lets not debate that for the moment :D
What were the engine oils used and what was the oil change mileage (in general).
I am assuming for a well maintained LT5 it is easily a 200K mile engine...... :)

Thank you for your very informative discussions :thumbsup::happy1:

And thank you spork2367 for your technical Analysis :thumbsup:

Sorry for the delay in answering this, had stuff to do today, plus, since I am not one for generalizing or conjecture, I had to find my Franklin planner from 89 thru 91.
I may not answer the questions in order, but here we go.

At the end of both the 150k, 200k, and 400 hour durability test they were, quite frankly surprisingly good. The 200 hour test engines however showed deeper wear patterns, but were still serviceable.

Early/ 90 my sign off testing was done on 10-30 sg mineral based oil and the latter on 5-30sh M1.
Now oil change intervals on the cars were 5k, although oil was added prior to changes, after all they were LT5's.

As to the dyno engines, I have some notes that say 20 hours of Corp durability, but I need to find more info on that re the later engines to give a definitive answer.

I have included some images, which show higher wear in terms of measured groove depth and surface discoloration than the tests I have commented on and one image of something different.

As always ask any questions and I will endeavor to answer them

Graham

[max76]

Hello to everybody!

I can't put more technical information about the best LT5 oil, but I think I can help Max76 with the special problems to find good oils in Europe for our beloved ZR-1's.

Here in Spain, we have a specialists in ZR-1 with a big repair shop, members of ZR-1 Net Registry too. They recommended me to use Mobil 1 5W30 or 5W50 depending on the way you use the car. Normal/Tourist use (5W30) or hard use including track days or hard mountain/highway drive (5W50).

Since 2.014 I'm using Mobil 1 5W50 with a very low oil consumption and I'm very confident on it. I use to drive 4.000 kilometers (2500 miles) per year and I change the oil every 18 months and the oil comes so clear similar to new.

My Zr-1 has 79.000 kilometers (49.000 miles).

All the best from Spain to all the ZR-1 community!!

Marcos Gil.
1.990 ZR-1
#2342#

Hi 1977CamaroZ28,
yes...i know, i can use the mobi1 5w30...but there's also an other oil available in europe that i think it's better than mobil, it's the Liqui Moly MoS2 10w40...Now i must decide what to do, use Liqui Moly oil or use Mobil1 with add the ceramic power liquid anti friction treatment...
I ues the car like turist...old turist!!!! :-) :-)