Crazy VATS Problem

[KJL]

Ok so I seem to have this reoccurring problem with my car not starting. Originally I thought it was due to the fact that I cut off the battery when ever I leave the car. Some folks on the forum thought this may be messing with the VATS system thinking there is a problem. Every tome this happens following about a 20 minute wait she will start right up. The only other thing that is constant in all this it only ever happens when I am at the gym. Yesterday I came to the gym and did not cut off the battery this time. When I went to leave sure enough the car doesn’t start. I waited about 15 minutes and it still would not start. Called my wife for lift and went back about 1 hour later and it started without issue. It was then I noticed I always park under some high tension power lines and was wondering if the magnetic fields created by these things may be messing with the VATS system. It makes no sense at all that it only happens ever at the gym. I always park in the same spot.

[secondchance]

I see 95 and 92 ZR-1s on your signature line. Is this happening to 95? If so, this is while using PKE remote?

[KJL]

It is the 95 but not sure what the PKE remote is?

[secondchance]

It is the 95 but not sure what the PKE remote is?

93 to 95 ZR-1s (as well as standard C4 Corvettes) came with proximity remote fobs - a.k.a. Passive keyless entry.
I’m wondering if you lock/unlock the door with PKE remote, if VAT will still malfunction as you are experiencing.

[KJL]

[QUOTE=secondchance;303718]93 to 95 ZR-1s (as well as standard C4 Corvettes) came with proximity remote fobs - a.k.a. Passive keyless entry.
I’m wondering if you lock/unlock the door with PKE remote, if VAT will still malfunction

I just use the key to unlock. But it never happens any other time.

[XfireZ51]

The fact that it started in that same spot 1hr later would tend to eliminate the power line hypothesis IMO.

[KJL]

The fact that it started in that same spot 1hr later would tend to eliminate the power line hypothesis IMO.

Just a guess. Doesn’t happen every time I take it either. I don’t think I can rule it out until it happens somewhere else. I have read elsewhere in the forum that if this VATS system sees anything odd in the electrical system, could be enough to trigger. That is why all fingers initially pointed toward my battery disconnect. May take it today to see what happens.

[KJL]

The fact that it started in that same spot 1hr later would tend to eliminate the power line hypothesis IMO.

Just a guess. Doesn’t happen every time I take it either. I don’t think I can rule it out until it happens somewhere else. I have read elsewhere in the forum that if this VATS system sees anything odd in the electrical system, could be enough to trigger. That is why all fingers initially pointed toward my battery disconnect. May take it today to see what happens.

Is there a way to just turn this system off?

[secondchance]

If this was happening to me, I would splice in a VATS bypass and see if this eliminates intermittent issue. If yes, i would suspect periodic CCM malfunction.
Did you notice what the security light was doing on the main cluster?

[KJL]

If this was happening to me, I would splice in a VATS bypass and see if this eliminates intermittent issue. If yes, i would suspect periodic CCM malfunction.
Did you notice what the security light was doing on the main cluster?

When the door opened the light blinked. When I turned the key to energize the system (but not start the car) the light was Off.

Is there a thread that describes how to do this? I am also considering putting a resistor into bypass the key pellet. From what I understand there is a 2 wire connector under the dash near the column that can be disconnected and bypassed with a resistor of the same ohms as the key pellet. I urge everyone to measure the resistance across the pellet on their keys so if they ever lose them, bypassing can be an option. doubt these keys are available anymore.

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

If this was happening to me, I would splice in a VATS bypass and see if this eliminates intermittent issue. If yes, i would suspect periodic CCM malfunction.
Did you notice what the security light was doing on the main cluster?


Clean and switch keys to rule that out.
If iit were starter heat soak, it would happen elsewhere.
If your PKE is still active, yet you are not using your remote, then it is conceivable that the antenna is picking up the EM interference, and is unsure how to deal with it.
Park farther away from the lines to see if that changes anything.

I always used to like battery cutoffs. However, now with all of the complex electronics with dozens of modules, I am not fond of killing power and then restoring it. A lever blade type provides full power immediately upon lowering it.
The knob type can cause momentary connection then loss as you tighten it, then connection etc. Those "jolts" can cause trouble especially if they occur often.
Steady power, with a boost from a very low trickle type computerized charger, such as Battery Tender, or C-Tek, is a feature of my battery "religion".
I also always make a permanent connection rather than using alligator clips.
Lastly, I make the connection to the car before powering up the charger.
Can't say if any of that truly helps absent some scientific study, but it does avoid surges to the electrical system.

Also trying to think what could be different in the gym routine form elsewhere, as you are suggesting that is the only place that it happens.
Certainly the EM field is of some concern, different key than usual?
does it get handled/ stored differently?
Same shoes as always? Are you sure that you are getting the clutch pedal fully depressed?
Is your door opening sequence different at the gym?
Just trying to rule out simple things first.
Keep us posted.
But monitor the security light when you turn the car off, then when you open the door, then after you lock it, and how do you lock it key or door lock switch? Watch the light as you do each and let us know.
Do you toss the gym bag in or pop the hatch?
:cheers:
Marty

[conesare2seconds]

It’s the gym.

I’m kidding. My car stranded me every darn time I took it to the gym, too. I took to carrying a jump pack. Anyway, two thoughts. First, if you are using two sets of mats take one set out and see if there is any difference. You might not be able to depress the clutch pedal fully with a second set. Second, your starter might need a new solenoid or you might need a new starter. If the car starts with a jump it points to the starter, assuming your battery is good.

[lfalzarano]

Jump pack doesn’t work. Only a push start will get you going unless you can wait for 20 minutes


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[KJL]

[/COLOR]

Clean and switch keys to rule that out.
If iit were starter heat soak, it would happen elsewhere.
If your PKE is still active, yet you are not using your remote, then it is conceivable that the antenna is picking up the EM interference, and is unsure how to deal with it.
Park farther away from the lines to see if that changes anything.

I always used to like battery cutoffs. However, now with all of the complex electronics with dozens of modules, I am not fond of killing power and then restoring it. A lever blade type provides full power immediately upon lowering it.
The knob type can cause momentary connection then loss as you tighten it, then connection etc. Those "jolts" can cause trouble especially if they occur often.
Steady power, with a boost from a very low trickle type computerized charger, such as Battery Tender, or C-Tek, is a feature of my battery "religion".
I also always make a permanent connection rather than using alligator clips.
Lastly, I make the connection to the car before powering up the charger.
Can't say if any of that truly helps absent some scientific study, but it does avoid surges to the electrical system.

Also trying to think what could be different in the gym routine form elsewhere, as you are suggesting that is the only place that it happens.
Certainly the EM field is of some concern, different key than usual?
does it get handled/ stored differently?
Same shoes as always? Are you sure that you are getting the clutch pedal fully depressed?
Is your door opening sequence different at the gym?
Just trying to rule out simple things first.
Keep us posted.
But monitor the security light when you turn the car off, then when you open the door, then after you lock it, and how do you lock it key or door lock switch? Watch the light as you do each and let us know.
Do you toss the gym bag in or pop the hatch?
:cheers:
Marty

Thanks for all the tips. I still turn the battery off when the car is going to be stored for more than a couple of of days. Use a light weight AGM type battery that is relocated behind the Pass. seat. Great battery but they don't well sitting for long periods. I had the forethought to leave in the original battery connections in place in case I ever need to quickly swap in another battery as back up like I did when I went to the C4 gathering last year. Alternator died and I purchased a full size battery to drive home on. Made it from Chattanooga TN al the way to Atlanta on just the battery. I disconnected my AGM battery but it was there for back up. Leaving the original cables also makes it a lot easier to jump if you need to.

Another problem I have that may be related but it has done this sense I purchased the car the car is many times when I start the car it hear the starter solenoid engage but the starter does not turn. It always starts on the second try.

Is there a way to deactivate this VATS system?

[KJL]

haha.....another reason to just not go!! She always starts at the local Tavern!

[secondchance]

Next time the car is not starting take a look at the volt gauge on the instrument panel as to turn the key to start position.
If the needle drops, I would suspect starter failure.
Do you know how old the starter is?

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

Well, that is an excellent solution to the problem.
Skip the gym, and have a burger and a beer at the tavern instead.
OK,OK, put lettuce on the burger for health reasons......................

Or go with fruits and vegetables instead by ordering either a Bloody Mary or a Screwdriver.

If it is EM field interference, that would be confusing to the PKE system, which even if the VATS were circumvented, might signal the CCM to interrupt the starter circuit. Your PKE continues to work even though you are not activating it with the FOB.
You should read your manual to see if your locking method is activating it, which would then explain it's "confusion" with the EM field it might be "seeing".
There are I believe two antennas that search for signals for the PKE.

The manual will also review how the security light will appear through each method of locking and unlocking. The CCM expects things in a certain sequence. If it receives information out of sequence it can interpret it as a theft.

The VATS "workaround" only sends the CCM s signal that the key was of the proper ohms for the car / CCM. Other theft symptoms such as door opening, would not be affected by the VATS eliminator.

Are you sure that when this happens at the gym that it is different from when the starter engages but does not spin on first try?

Again, keep us posted on progress.
:cheers:
Marty

[Dynomite]

I have battery disconnect on all corvettes and never any issues even if disconnected on daily bases (95' also) :thumbsup:

I also recondition starter solenoid points on all starters
which is often an issue on most ZR1s if not reconditioned :cheers:


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[KJL]

Well, that is an excellent solution to the problem.
Skip the gym, and have a burger and a beer at the tavern instead.
OK,OK, put lettuce on the burger for health reasons......................

Or go with fruits and vegetables instead by ordering either a Bloody Mary or a Screwdriver.

If it is EM field interference, that would be confusing to the PKE system, which even if the VATS were circumvented, might signal the CCM to interrupt the starter circuit. Your PKE continues to work even though you are not activating it with the FOB.
You should read your manual to see if your locking method is activating it, which would then explain it's "confusion" with the EM field it might be "seeing".
There are I believe two antennas that search for signals for the PKE.

The manual will also review how the security light will appear through each method of locking and unlocking. The CCM expects things in a certain sequence. If it receives information out of sequence it can interpret it as a theft.

The VATS "workaround" only sends the CCM s signal that the key was of the proper ohms for the car / CCM. Other theft symptoms such as door opening, would not be affected by the VATS eliminator.

Are you sure that when this happens at the gym that it is different from when the starter engages but does not spin on first try?

Again, keep us posted on progress.
:cheers:
Marty

Yes. When this happens nothing happens at all. Just the dash lights come on. I am at the gym now but this time am parking further away. Just got here. Stopped the car and restarted without issue. Will do everything like I did the other day and see what happens.

[lfalzarano]

Just for the record, what was the ambient temperature when you did the restart? What was it, when it did not start if you can recall?


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[KJL]

Just for the record, what was the ambient temperature when you did the restart? What was it, when it did not start if you can recall?


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Car started no problem. I stopped the car, opened the door and then using the door lock switch and noticed the security light go from blinking to solid. I used the key to open the door. I parked further away from the lines but once is not enough to rule anything out. It did the the partial start thing a couple of times today. I may be pulling the plenum soon perhaps I should pull the starter and have it looked at. The temp here has been around 50f.

[lfalzarano]

Don’t rush to conclusions. When it didn’t start was it a lot hotter. Just trying to determine the circumstances when it fails to start.


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[Ccmano]

Codes?
H

[KJL]

Codes?
H

No codes

[Ccmano]

No codes

To be clear, no engine codes and no CCM codes? They are retrieved two different ways. VATS is under the control of the CCM module.
H
:cheers:

[KJL]

To be clear, no engine codes and no CCM codes? They are retrieved two different ways. VATS is under the control of the CCM module.
H
:cheers:

I typically use a jumper and pull the codes from dash. I also have a reader that can also pull codes. I have disconnected the battery since it happened so chances are if there any historical codes they are gone now. I will double check.

[Ccmano]

I typically use a jumper and pull the codes from dash. I also have a reader that can also pull codes. I have disconnected the battery since it happened so chances are if there any historical codes they are gone now. I will double check.

That’s not going to get you the CCM codes. If you have a FSM there is a process where the buttons on the DIC are used to display the CCM codes to the LCD display in the instrument cluster. Page 8D-4 in the 1990 Manual. If you don’t have one here are the relevant pages.
H

https://farm66.staticflickr.com/65535/49469125867_6a4ab20413_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2inqcDe)

https://farm66.staticflickr.com/65535/49468408808_0dfffec465_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2inmwu9)

[KJL]

That is how I do it. Ground G to A on the ALDL connector. Thanks for uploading the pages. I wish I had the books instead of the CD's.

[Chuck CoW]

Hey Guys,


Got in a 1993 ZR1 last week and wanted to disable the vats for the fella


while we were replacing the CCM and was going to change the skip shift and


fan settings for the fella. No big tune this time, just simple stuff.


After burning the Chip I was able to get it to start and run no problem, but


I had to install a resistor for the new bcm instead of the "simple" vats delete


I so frequently do in all C4s. I could not get it to work no matter what I tried


but additionally, the Tunerpro XDFs were kinda limited for this vehicle I noticed.


Not sure which calibration I have, but I was wondering if any of you know of


any problems with the Tunerpro XDFs or if (hopefully) someone can tell me


where to get a better XDF with some more comprehensive maps and parameters


for this and other ZR1s.


Hopefully it's just the XDF I'm using, unless someone on here knows of a common


VATS delete issue with these.


Thanks a lot!
Chuck CoW

[XfireZ51]

The 93-95 ZRs use the $F0 altho most likely the $F0A .xdf.

[Chuck CoW]

The 93-95 ZRs use the $F0 altho most likely the $F0A .xdf.




Thanks.. I think that was the first problem.... Tunerpro does not have the $F0A, but I located one and it didn't seem to help


and the vats pid was at the same memory address when I compared the XDFs.


There must be something else wrong... Maybe there is a better XDF out there or a patch I need to install...



I'm still looking for some better XDF choices and or advice.


Again, the tunerpro XDFs I have are very limited compared to others I have


used for early vehicles.


Thanks
Chuck CoW

[Chuck CoW]

Just to change the topic slightly, I've spent tons of time with TunerPro and the definitions for this platform are sparse.


Dose anyone have any very complete XDFs for Tunerpro or is it that people are using CATS for the ZR1s?


Your advise is much appreciated.
Chuck CoW