SYS on display and speedometer and odometer stopped working

[ZuggZR1]

:flag2:Today out of the blue the 1990 ZR1 threw the SYS error on the display and the Speedometer just said 0, as well as the odometer, did not work as well. The engine started to run higher than normal almost like a choke was stuck on and then would also run rough almost stalling. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Video of codes here https://www.dropbox.com/s/f3izumgdvlllhhb/code_results.mp4?dl=0

[secondchance]

Is service engine soon light on.
Perhaps, start with pulling code?

[Hib Halverson]

Can't do much to help unless you can get the codes out of the various controllers memories.

Do you have a factory service manual for the car?

[Ccmano]

Is service engine soon light on.
Perhaps, start with pulling code?

Agreed, need to pull codes. My guess is the SES light is on too. You’ll probably find its VSS (Vehicle Speed Senor) related. Either the sensor itself (just had this on a friends car) or the related wiring.
H
:cheers:

[ZuggZR1]

here is codes on video https://www.dropbox.com/s/f3izumgdvlllhhb/code_results.mp4?dl=0


Not sure what the Err is all about and then just hangs

[Ccmano]

Ok, C41 (with the 1 above) is a CCM code indicating “Loss of ECM serial data communications “ the H41 simply means it’s in history and has happened before. The ‘err’ (with the 4 above) means there was no communication with the ECM to get ECM fault codes.

Did you get any engine codes as well? Without a scanner you would need to use the “paper clip” method. Like this...
http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/Tech%20Info/aldl.htm

Once you get any engine codes we will have a better picture. C41 codes can be tricky and it’s important to follow the diagnostic tree in the manual (page 8d-46 in the 90” manual). In this case it could be anything from a bad CCM module, a bad ECM, bad Memcal, bad connection to any of these or most likely an bad ground or short in the wiring.

Here’s an idea of the last thread on the subject. Turned out to be the Memcal. But that doesn’t mean that your issue.

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30506&highlight=Code&page=6

If your not at least somewhat competent in electrical diagnostic work its best left to someone who is. Otherwise you end up throwing parts at it (like many do), doing unnecessary work and spend much more money than needed.

This is not specific to a ZR-1, therefore any competent auto electrical shop should be able to handle it. Operative word here being “competent”. If you have any skills at all it might be best to tackle it yourself.
H
:cheers:

[-=Jeff=-]

Wait,

Did you say the odometer is showing 0 miles?
Can you change the LCD Display with the DIC buttons?

I am thinking this might be CCM related, in t e FSM there is a procedure to get into the CCM Diagnostics, might be worth doing and testing some of those functions.

But before we get too far ahead.. Check all the CCM related fuses (or all the fuses for that matter).. do this first

[chriskinzel]

When I got an SYS on my display it was a bad battery. Might want to start there.


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[ZuggZR1]

Battery was brand new in July so pretty sure not that

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[-=Jeff=-]

Looked at your picture again.. that is the TRIP showing 0.. please confirm the Odometer is showing the correct mileage. You have a 1990.. my best guess, the VSS is bad.. You might have a hard time finding a 1990 VSS, the 1990 will work with a harness connector change

[ZuggZR1]

OK I can confirm that the odometer is showing correctly. When I tried to check the setting using the A to B jumper I saw nothing on the digital speedometer or on the Infocenter. Here is a video of info center the entire time: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zped6lorpjobwst/atob_setting.mp4?dl=0

Oddly when I set jumper back to A & G and tried recording that it started to run and then the entire car just went black as you see here : https://www.dropbox.com/s/c0cgg5uewz5zi4s/a%26g_wentblank.mp4?dl=0


Im wondering if the battery is part of the problem when i plugged in my tender it wont even power on.

[-=Jeff=-]

When you jumped A & B turn the key to on engine not running and observe the SES light

[ZuggZR1]

thats what I did, saw nothing like what I saw on video from you tube

[ZuggZR1]

So I checked the battery and it is showing 12.04 volts and checked every fuse in both locations ( by passenger door & under dash by passenger's feet) and all tested fine but yet still no power in the car at all. Any suggestions. This is what happened when doing the testing with paper clip from A to G and A to B


Battery Reading: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7roqqnqs5b1x256/2020-01-22%2014.35.25.jpg?dl=0

Fuses side pannel: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tgwelij1g2jd34s/2020-01-22%2015.00.31.jpg?dl=0

Fuses under passenger Dash: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ey08n5qqwznzpsy/2020-01-22%2015.00.22.jpg?dl=0

**NOTE** Images are also attached to the post

Any suggestions on what to check now?

[BigJohn]

I don’t know ; a good battery should be 13-14 volts

[-=Jeff=-]

Have you checked the MEMCAL in the ECM to be sure it is seated properly

[lfalzarano]

Have you checked the MEMCAL in the ECM to be sure it is seated properly



I suggested a cold boot of the ECM after 20-30 seconds. Your suggestion is even better.


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[ZuggZR1]

Ok I did some checking of the battery cables and when I started to touch the Positive battery cable I heard the power atena motor and then the lights all came back on. So I think its time to replace that cable.

Replacement has been ordered

Battery Cable
Part Number: 2SD40XH
Product Notes:
Battery Cable
All; Battery To Switch; VIN: J*
Per Vehicle: 1; Years: 1990-1992

Origininal ACDELO part

[Ccmano]

I’m confused! What happened here? First there were codes, a SYS light and it wasn’t running correctly. Now it’s dead with no electrical power to anything? BTW 12.0 volts is too low. A good battery should show 12.6 volts in static condition. These cars do funny things when the voltage is even slightly low. Once the car is running it should be in the 13.5 volt area or higher if the alternator is charging.
H
:cheers:

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

I’m confused! What happened here? First there were codes, a SYS light and it wasn’t running correctly. Now it’s dead with no electrical power to anything? BTW 12.0 volts is too low. A good battery should show 12.6 volts in static condition. These cars do funny things when the voltage is even slightly low. Once the car is running it should be in the 13.5 volt area or higher if the alternator is charging.
H
:cheers:

Often I feel as if I spend WAY too much time reciting the same things about batteries over and over again.
However, those two sentences above are absolute gospel truth.
Fully 75% of the cars I get in here trace back to the simplest of things.
1- A failing battery, or one that fully lost it's charge and now exhibits a dead cell when properly tested, regardless of how "new" it is.
2- The very next step after load testing the battery is an examination of the battery cable bolts and the contact surface of the cable.
3- "The meaning of TIGHT" Loose battery bolts have got to rank right up there. After 1 and 2, simply try to twist the cable after you tighten it. If it moves, go a bit tighter until you are certain that the clean surface and the new bolt are making full contact with the clean battery terminal.
4- Check the alternator connections for cleanliness and tightness.
5- Check the power distribution connections coming from the battery and confirm you are getting proper voltage from the battery into the electrical system.
6- With Key on run (for no more than 5-10 minutes, back-probe each and every fuse on all fuse blocks. If you find a blown or weak one remove it until all others have been checked. A short on one feed can do funny things to others, as the CCM tries to understand what it is seeing.
7- NEVER use jumper cables, or if you must, make damn sure you SEE the plus and minus on both batteries BEFORE making the positive connection.
Make the negative to a ground not the negative terminal on your ZR-1.
I see so many people with a running jumper car as they hook it up. When the jumpers car alternator senses the "new" load as it is coming on line, you can get a surge that can easily damage an ECM or CCM long before any fusible link, circuit breaker or fuse can react.
I always insist my techs use nothing but a quality portable battery box, and make sure they connect without shorting onto any adjacent metal area, ESPECIALLY those damn top terminals on fits-all batteries.

All such simple things that we most all of learned in our teens, but again these computerized cars behave strangely with insufficient, or momentary jolts of near any kind.

Buy a quality battery from a dealer who can load test, and stand behind the warranty if something is not right.
I am a devout Delco fan, or an Autolite for Ford or Mopar for a Chrysler guy.
My Delco distributor never questions a return form us.
I go with the gold or platinum battery that has a minimum of a 42 month free non pro rated return.
If one comes back dead, I INSIST on a Battery Tender or better, with a permanent connection. If they decline, I nicely tell them to not bring a dead one back to me then, or just get it somewhere else.
That put an end to the new battery every year crowd.

Simple things, but time and time again they are the causes for trouble, and occasionally some very expensive trouble.

Some other day we should focus on rodent induced electrical damage........................................

:cheers:
Marty

[ZuggZR1]

So am I reading correctly in the SM that I need to have access to the starter to replace the positive battery cable? Does that mean pulling the intake again?

[Ccmano]

So am I reading correctly in the SM that I need to have access to the starter to replace the positive battery cable? Does that mean pulling the intake again?

Correct...;)
H
:cheers:

[chriskinzel]

I would still start with a new battery that has tested 13-14 volts. Been there. New battery fixed it all.


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[ZuggZR1]

But when I moved the positive cable I got power back so that would make me believe that the cable is faulty correct? If you recall when doing the code retrieval the car powered off and did not come back on till I was poking around and moved the postive cable and I heard the power antenna come on and when I opened the door had lights now.

[BigJohn]

Maybe intermittent short in the battery

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

But when I moved the positive cable I got power back so that would make me believe that the cable is faulty correct? If you recall when doing the code retrieval the car powered off and did not come back on till I was poking around and moved the postive cable and I heard the power antenna come on and when I opened the door had lights now.

1- A failing battery, or one that fully lost it's charge and now exhibits a dead cell when properly tested, regardless of how "new" it is.
2- The very next step after load testing the battery is an examination of the battery cable bolts and the contact surface of the cable.
3- "The meaning of TIGHT" Loose battery bolts have got to rank right up there. After 1 and 2, simply try to twist the cable after you tighten it. If it moves, go a bit tighter until you are certain that the clean surface and the new bolt are making full contact with the clean battery terminal.

plz go back to post 20

:cheers:
Marty

[ZuggZR1]

OK battery was tested and it was in fact low on CC amps. So they charged it for me and even as fully charged the SYS is still being displayed on the dash.

When I try and do the jumper A/B light I see nothing displayed. But when I do A/G I do get the sasme codes Ive been seeing in previous posts.

Do notice the car is running very rough when starting now as on observation since all this has started to happen.

[Ccmano]

OK battery was tested and it was in fact low on CC amps. So they charged it for me and even as fully charged the SYS is still being displayed on the dash.

When I try and do the jumper A/B light I see nothing displayed. But when I do A/G I do get the sasme codes Ive been seeing in previous posts.

Do notice the car is running very rough when starting now as on observation since all this has started to happen.

I had a feeling.... what codes do you see?
H
:cheers:

[ZuggZR1]

Her is jumper results tonite: Jumper A&B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3mca5zpct6o675/jumperA%26B.mp4?dl=0

Jumper A&G: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3mdow9gpv73l4s3/JumperA%26G.mp4?dl=0

What was your feeling.

[-=Jeff=-]

My feeling? ECM is bad.. I do have a question.. with no jumpers and you turn key on, what does SES do?

[ZuggZR1]

My feeling? ECM is bad.. I do have a question.. with no jumpers and you turn key on, what does SES do?No serice engine soon light comes on just occasionally the SYS light pops up on the sleed display and the trip and speedometer stay at 0000

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[ZuggZR1]

My feeling? ECM is bad.. I do have a question.. with no jumpers and you turn key on, what does SES do?So if ECM is this a regular ECM or does the ZR1 have a special ECM? Ill start shopping around

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[Ccmano]

Her is jumper results tonite: Jumper A&B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3mca5zpct6o675/jumperA%26B.mp4?dl=0

Jumper A&G: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3mdow9gpv73l4s3/JumperA%26G.mp4?dl=0

What was your feeling.

I had a feeling you should be seeing codes and there they are. The 1.0 and C41/H41 after is an ECM Serial Data Error. Which means the CCM and ECM are not communicating. The 4.0 with err after means the same thing from the ECM side. Now comes the tricky part. It’s either the ECM itself or a fault in the wiring (bad connection, short or open). Start with the diagnostic tree for Code 41.

ECMs are unique to ZR-1’s, but any year will work in any other year. Don’t assume it’s the ECM. It could just as well be the wiring. Do the diagnostics. You could be shelling out $500-$1000 for nothing.
H
:cheers:

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

Have you followed the diagnostic procedure for the CCM?
I believe it is in section 8d of the FSM.
The big volume not the smaller one.
SYS is the error message for the CCM.

:cheers:
Marty

[ZuggZR1]

Here is my current ECM info

[ZuggZR1]

looking at the diagnostics now. Just trying to figure this out. Still a newbie to the ZR1 family.

[-=Jeff=-]

I had a feeling you should be seeing codes and there they are. The 1.0 and C41/H41 after is an ECM Serial Data Error. Which means the CCM and ECM are not communicating. The 4.0 with err after means the same thing from the ECM side. Now comes the tricky part. It’s either the ECM itself or a fault in the wiring (bad connection, short or open). Start with the diagnostic tree for Code 41.

ECMs are unique to ZR-1’s, but any year will work in any other year. Don’t assume it’s the ECM. It could just as well be the wiring. Do the diagnostics. You could be shelling out $500-$1000 for nothing.
H
:cheers:

While I agree it could be wiring, my suspicion of the ECM is due to the fact that the SES flickers on and then off. If there is someone near you I suggest either seeing if they would be willing to help you test out the ECM, you could put your ECM in their car or their;s in your car.


I have attached the 2 pages for Checking for No SES, which is what you have, or where I would start.. looking at the tree diagram on the second page it refers to fusible links on the first page. I would find those pins and probe from there using the test light. I wonder if the fusible link is bad..

Do you have the following tools:
-Circuit Test Light
-DMM

DMM is useful if you don't have one the cheap (or sometimes free with coupon) one from Harbor Freight is decent and will get the job done..

The Diagram refers to ECM connectors (A,B,C,D), the pins are marked on the connector and ECM (not all but a few then you count)

ECM connectors:
A - Yellow or Gray
B - Red
C - Green
D - Brown

I have also attached the ECM Connector pin out


Let us know if we can help

[ZuggZR1]

So i wanted to update you and and say thank you for all the help and guidance on this journey. Today i was disconnecting the ECM from the ZR1 after talking to Mark. He told me to keep my Epromm chip and cover. When i took the cover off i noticed that one of the clips that holds the epromm in place was not completly pushed into a locking position.

So i took the epromm out and reseated it and heard both sides click. I then tugged on the epromm and it was secure. Then plugged it all back in and turned key. No SYS error ans the SES light came on as expected. So for fun i hooked up my odb1 scanner and it said no teouble codes.

Took the ZR1 for a ride and everything was normal again.

Again thank you all for your support and help11251

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[Ccmano]

Glad you found it! Its amazing how the simplest things can cause issues.
Drive your car and enjoy!
H
:cheers:

[-=Jeff=-]

Have you checked the MEMCAL in the ECM to be sure it is seated properly

I suggested that on page 2 of this thread.. glad it was a cheap fix