Camaro 4 Piston Brembo kit

[Ccmano]

This 4 Piston Brembo kit for a late model Camaro with 13.6 inch rotors is a heck of a deal. $400.00 Almost too good to be true. Curious if anyone has had any experience fitting these calipers?
https://www.chevydirectparts.com/oem-parts/gm-brembo-r-performance-front-brake-package-four-piston-calipers-camaro-ls-left-23245470?c=Zz1wZXJmb3JtYW5jZSZzPWJyYWtlLWtpdHMmbD0 xJm49U2VhcmNoIFJlc3VsdHMmYT1jaGV2cm9sZXQmbz1jYW1hc m8meT0yMDE5JnQ9bHMmZT0yLTBsLWw0LWdhcw%3D%3D
H
:cheers:

[Karl]

Looks similar to this big brake upgrade.

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29748

Good luck on getting info from the person.... Didn't seem to want to disclose much to say the least.

[Ccmano]

They do look the same and are for the same year Camaro. He doesn’t go into what he did to mount them, tho apparently the do bolt up but required some slight modifications.
H
:cheers:

[msv]

The picture that goes with that link is misleading, that is not what the kit consists of. The calipers are 4-piston, the discs are 1-piece. The calipers themselves are shared between the Camaro6 SS, C7 Z51, and some Cadillac models, just with different pad compounds and paint.

Unfortunately, the discs in that kit aren't of any use on the C4 because the centerbore is too small.

The calipers are for a 345x30mm disc, and the C7 Z51 discs will fit on the C4.

Of course a bracket would then have to be made to mount the caliper. The calipers have a 128mm spacing and on a 345mm disc the mounts are 64mm from disc centerline. The C4 caliper mounts are 130mm spacing, and ~75mm from disc centerline.

[Karl]

Is that price for both front brakes or just the left side?

[Ccmano]

Is that price for both front brakes or just the left side?

Good question, saw that too. The pictures and description indicates a front set.
H

[Ccmano]

The picture that goes with that link is misleading, that is not what the kit consists of. The calipers are 4-piston, the discs are 1-piece. The calipers themselves are shared between the Camaro6 SS, C7 Z51, and some Cadillac models, just with different pad compounds and paint.

Unfortunately, the discs in that kit aren't of any use on the C4 because the centerbore is too small.

The calipers are for a 345x30mm disc, and the C7 Z51 discs will fit on the C4.

Of course a bracket would then have to be made to mount the caliper. The calipers have a 128mm spacing and on a 345mm disc the mounts are 64mm from disc centerline. The C4 caliper mounts are 130mm spacing, and ~75mm from disc centerline.

I suppose a machine shop could enlarge the center bores.
H
:cheers:

[msv]

I suppose a machine shop could enlarge the center bores.
H
:cheers:


For sure, just a bit of a hassle to do that every time the discs need replacing.


The benefit there vs. the C7 Z51 discs though, is that the Camaro ones are 10mm deeper so wheel clearance to the caliper is easier since it doesn't overhang the wheel mounting surface as much.

[Ccmano]

Of course a bracket would then have to be made to mount the caliper. The calipers have a 128mm spacing and on a 345mm disc the mounts are 64mm from disc centerline. The C4 caliper mounts are 130mm spacing, and ~75mm from disc centerline.

Do you have these dimensions for C5 and C6 Z06 calipers?
H
:cheers:

[msv]

For the C5 and C6, the hole spacing is 128mm, and the offset from disc centerline is 86mm.


The attached diagram shows what I mean by the offset dimension.

[Ccmano]

For the C5 and C6, the hole spacing is 128mm, and the offset from disc centerline is 86mm.


The attached diagram shows what I mean by the offset dimension.

Thanks! Is that true for the C6 Z06 as well?
H
:cheers:

[msv]

Yes, the same uprights are used across the board on the C6, regardless of which model it is.

[Ccmano]

So if I follow the logic of the spacing, since C5 and C6 uprights are the same, a C5 Adapter bracket should work for any C5 or C6 Caliper/rotor combination on an 88+ C4 as long as the C5/C6 Caliper/Rotor are correct to each other. Hope I said that right.

In other words as long as the you use (for example) C6 Z06 caliper/rotor or a C5 Z06 Caliper/rotor and not mix calipers and rotors you should be good with a C5 Adapter bracket.

Taking that logic one step further you could also use a Camaro caliper/rotor with a C5 Adapter bracket (since the hole spacing is the same as a C5/C6 at 128mm) as long as you enlarged rotor center bore?

Is that logic correct? Or is offset another variable that can cause mounting issue? All of this assumes wheel clearance is not an issue.
H
:cheers:

[msv]

So if I follow the logic of the spacing, since C5 and C6 uprights are the same, a C5 Adapter bracket should work for any C5 or C6 Caliper/rotor combination on an 88+ C4 as long as the C5/C6 Caliper/Rotor are correct to each other. Hope I said that right.

In other words as long as the you use (for example) C6 Z06 caliper/rotor or a C5 Z06 Caliper/rotor and not mix calipers and rotors you should be good with a C5 Adapter bracket.

Yes, but the caliper adapter bracket also has to locate the mounting plane of the new caliper mounting locations at the same distance from the hub face that it is on the C5/C6.

Taking that logic one step further you could also use a Camaro caliper/rotor with a C5 Adapter bracket (since the hole spacing is the same as a C5/C6 at 128mm) as long as you enlarged rotor center bore?

Is that logic correct? Or is offset another variable that can cause mounting issue? All of this assumes wheel clearance is not an issue.
H
:cheers:

Nope! The hole spacing is the same, but that is the only similarity. The offset from the disc centerline is different so the hole positions are going to be different. Also the distance from the hub face to the caliper mount is different. To use Camaro parts on the C4 would require a bracket made specifically to adapt those components.


You touched on the wheel clearance issue already, which is always the key with brake upgrades, both diameter and then caliper to spoke. The C5/C6 setups use a shallow disc so that makes the caliper to spoke of primary concern.

[XfireZ51]

C5 adapters will not work for C6Z06 calipers.

[msv]

C5 adapters will not work for C6Z06 calipers.


Can you clarify this?


There are definitely considerations for how the adapter is designed that could create clearance issues, but the brake mounting dimensions for the C5 and C6 are identical.


There are some changes made to the uprights between the cars, and of course the calipers themselves have different shapes so that needs to be considered, but if designed with the needed considerations, a single adapter design would accommodate all of the C5 and C6 brake combinations. (as Ccmano stipulating with the correct disc/caliper pairing)

[msv]

Maybe I should start a thread to get input on what the community is looking for in regards to brake upgrades? I might be able to help if I know what everyone's priorities are, i.e. cost, wheel sizes, piece-together yourself, or complete package, etc.

For example, here are a couple rear solutions I designed for the rear using C6 parking brake components. One version takes C6 OE brakes, and another version using a Brembo radial mount caliper.

https://i.imgur.com/cPG5sUx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hl0s7AO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NXNBAf7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LJ0CvBP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pbdRXX4.jpg

[Ccmano]

Exotic Muscle actually markets an Adapter they claim works for C5/C6 and C6 Z06 on EBay.
H
:cheers:

[Ccmano]

I can only speak for myself. I always look for the most cost effective, modern and efficient solutions. It’s easy to spend $1500 plus on an upgrade for the front using C6Z06, Baer, Wilwood or Movit calipers. Yes the standard C5Z06 upgrade is cheaper but I it’s not a significant improvement over the J55.

With all the late model Camaro (and derivative including C7Z51) Brembo calipers/rotors out there for well under $1000 (or as seen above for under $500) there needs to be an adapter developed for the C4.

I’m willing to be a Guinea pig if anyone is interested.
H
:cheers:

[XfireZ51]

The C6Z06 is larger ie 6 piston caliper and the rotor is 14” not 13” like the C5(actually 12.8”) The C6 caliper is similar to the C5, but the C6Z06 caliper is different from the base C6 caliper, unlike the C5 generation. My comment pertained to the Z06 not the base.

[msv]

The C6Z06 is larger ie 6 piston caliper and the rotor is 14” not 13” like the C5(actually 12.8”) The C6 caliper is similar to the C5, but the C6Z06 caliper is different from the base C6 caliper, unlike the C5 generation. My comment pertained to the Z06 not the base.


Yes, the brakes are certainly different, and are different sizes. But the mounting points on the car where the brakes mount to are in exactly the same position regardless of the brake package.

[XfireZ51]

Yes, the brakes are certainly different, and are different sizes. But the mounting points on the car where the brakes mount to are in exactly the same position regardless of the brake package.

But the Z06 caliper is a larger caliper and the mounting holes for the caliper on the adapter are different.

[msv]

Since I don't know specifically which adapter you are referring to, I can't comment on that.

However, my point is that there is no need for there to be a different adapter for different packages if designed appropriately. The mounting dimensions on the car are all the same, whether it is a base C6, a Z51, Grand Sport, Z06, or a ZR1. Or any C5 for that matter.

The holes are 14mm, spaced 128mm apart, with an offset of 86mm from the center, with the caliper mounting plane 63.4mm from the face of the hub.

[Ccmano]

The holes are 14mm, spaced 128mm apart, with an offset of 86mm from the center, with the caliper mounting plane 63.4mm from the face of the hub.

Do you know how this changed on the C7?
H
:cheers:

[XfireZ51]

Since I don't know specifically which adapter you are referring to, I can't comment on that.

However, my point is that there is no need for there to be a different adapter for different packages if designed appropriately. The mounting dimensions on the car are all the same, whether it is a base C6, a Z51, Grand Sport, Z06, or a ZR1. Or any C5 for that matter.

The holes are 14mm, spaced 128mm apart, with an offset of 86mm from the center, with the caliper mounting plane 63.4mm from the face of the hub.

I bought the adapters for my Z06 front brakes from here. Read what they say in the comments regarding using the base or Z51 adapter for the Z06 brakes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/88-to-96-C4-Corvette-to-C5-C6-brake-adapter-or-conversion-brackets/143243898121?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.S EED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114145%26meid%3D010c4 ba12b174cc8862d6fcf8858e0cd%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D 2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D233021728764%26itm%3D1432438981 21&_trksid=p2045573.c100667.m2042

[msv]

I bought the adapters for my Z06 front brakes from here. Read what they say in the comments regarding using the base or Z51 adapter for the Z06 brakes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/88-to-96-C4-Corvette-to-C5-C6-brake-adapter-or-conversion-brackets/143243898121?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.S EED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114145%26meid%3D010c4 ba12b174cc8862d6fcf8858e0cd%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D 2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D233021728764%26itm%3D1432438981 21&_trksid=p2045573.c100667.m2042Again...that is for that particular adapter. There is no reason why a single adapter design could not mount the Z06 brakes as well as all the others C5 and C6 options as well.

[XfireZ51]

Here’s a thread on CF dealing w Camaro Brembo upgrade for C4. I looked at this and the Cadillac Brembos as well.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-tech-performance/2950479-cts-v-brembos-on-c4.html

[msv]

Do you know how this changed on the C7?
H
:cheers:


Yes, I have those dimensions as well, some of which I posted earlier.

[Ccmano]

Yes, I have those dimensions as well, some of which I posted earlier.

Yes I saw that, it suggests that there is now a commonality between the Camaro, Cadillac and now C7 geometry. I was curious if that holds true for all the dimensions.
H
:cheers:

[msv]

Yes I saw that, it suggests that there is now a commonality between the Camaro, Cadillac and now C7 geometry. I was curious if that holds true for all the dimensions.
H
:cheers:


No, not all. The calipers cost a lot of money for the tooling so they use them across different platforms in order to increase the volumes and reduce the per-piece cost. Therefore, the hole spacing and the offset from centerline dimensions are the same for Camaro, (some) Cadillac, and C7, but there are other differences in the dimensions. Such as the hub face to caliper mount dimension, the hub bore, the wheel bolt pattern, etc. All of the discs for the C7 are unique to that platform. C7 is now the only GM product still using a 5x4.75" wheel bolt pattern and the 70.65mm centerbore dimension that is common all the way back through the C4.

[XfireZ51]

Following our discussion, I decided to ask the seller why his adapter needs to be different for the Z06 calipers when the mounting points are all the same.
Here’s hus response:

“
New message from: 1976ls1 (1,351Red Star)
The caliper is so big and the mounting surface is a little different so it does not work with that adapter bracket. I have modified the adapters to work with the ZO6 calibers but I'm not sure if I have any in stock right now. I'm at work now so can't check till I get home this evening.”

[Ccmano]

MSV.... what are your thoughts on how this fellow did his brakes using C7 Z07 bits. I suspect ZR1Assassin used a similar method.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-tech-performance/4176609-c7-z07-big-brake-upgrade.html
H
:cheers:

[msv]

A number of issues with that.

As I had mentioned the hole spacing is 128mm vs. the 130mm on the C4, so yes, you can oval the holes in order to mount the caliper. But I wouldn't be doing it with a die grinder.

If you mount the C7 caliper directly to the upright, then it is going to end up 11mm further out radially than it's supposed to be, so it's not going to work. In this picture, you can see how much daylight there is between the caliper and the edge of the disc (the clearance between the area of the caliper that passes over the disc is supposed to be 4mm). I don't know how this gentleman has not figured this out yet. Maybe he's never tried to put pads in the caliper or put a wheel on it.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/1297x975/img_5847_c837c885959e59670ef59be386f751883da047d6. jpg


The most concerning part is how unsafe this could be.

Getting parts to physically mount to a car is one thing, but that doesn't mean they are correct for the application. The ABS system is designed around the piston area and fluid absorption parameters of the OEM brake system. Deviating from that can cause horrible consequences, in some cases, basically making it feel like you are on ice when the system intervenes. For this reason, braking upgrades need to take the original parameters into account in order to closely match the piston area and torque of the original configuration. The C4 front pistons are both 38mm. These calipers are 30mm/34mm/38mm, which is an area increase of 22%.

I design brake systems for a living, and frankly what most people do when they try to make up their own systems from various parts scares the crap out of me.

[Ccmano]

With regard to your statement regarding radial positioning he makes the following statement further down in the thread....

“The alignment picture wasn't with it shimmed and the bolts tight...it is now and it's centered where it needs to be both in plane on the rotor and radially.”

“I've got my 2019 GS next to it and can do a direct comparison between the two and I'm within an 1/8" of being in the same radial position on the rotors.”

H
:cheers:

[msv]

There is no way to shim the caliper radial position. The caliper is going to be too far out radially by 11mm. Unless the 88-90 upright positions the caliper differently (but I don't think it does). I've only measured the 91-96 upright.

As I mentioned before, the C7 caliper offset is 64mm. The C4 upright is 75mm, so if bolted up directly, it moves the caliper out 11mm radially.

[XfireZ51]

=D> has I recall on my 84 that I wanted to do an upgrade to the C5 calipers at the time.
Got an adapter but the issue was that the C5s used a 14mm bolt bore on the spindle while the 84 had a 12mm. And yes you could “bore” it out but that just left less material to handle the added stress from braking. Finally ended up replacing the spindle w 87+ for the correct bolt bore. Moral of the story is I, as msv has stated, would never compromise on the brakes integrity to get it to fit.

msv is stating that its off by nearly 1/2” while the post in CF suggests its off by 3mm not 11.

[-=Jeff=-]

I ultimately ended up with a Wilwood setup on the front of my car..

[msv]

msv is stating that its off by nearly 1/2” while the post in CF suggests its off by 3mm not 11.


I think that is likely in reference to the position of the disc, not in reference to the caliper. It doesn't seem like he has even tried to put pads into the caliper yet. The picture I included showed that the distance from the caliper to the outer edge of the disc is much higher than it should be, and that's not something that you can shim, unfortunately.

[Ccmano]

The bottom line on this very interesting discussion is that the is no reason the economic late model Brembo Camaro calipers could not be used besides the fact that no one makes an Adapter. Seems to me there would be a substantial market for these adapters in the greater C4 community given the lower pricing of the Camaro calipers.

I’m willing to buy a set and be a Guinea pig if someone (MSV?) could design and produce the adapter. Or at least produce a CAD drawing and I can have one produced. The only remaining question is do you use the Camaro rotors that give better wheel clearance but need the bore modified or do you use the C7Z51 rotors that are apparently a bolt on? Based on what I read here the adapter would be different depending on the rotor used?
H
:cheers:

[XfireZ51]

Hans,

Not certain what the advantage of the Brembos are because from a price standpoint I see C6Z front takeoffs for about $400/pair. Are the Brembos somehow that much better for everyday use? The C6Z rotor is a direct fit albeit heavy and their offset reduces how far the tire sidewall protrudes past the front fenders.
Would have loved to put Brembos on. I think they are a better looking brake, but in the end, the price and installation differential made C6Z brakes my choice.
Be great to see how far u guys get w this.
What r u thinking for the rears?

[Ccmano]

I have yet the see a set of C6Z06 caliper going for $400. Most I have seen are $900+. Brand new Camaro Brembos are widely available and cheap whereas C6Z06 calipers are fewer and more expensive. More importantly the pads and rotors for the Camaro Brembo are much cheaper.

Not sure if we will get anywhere with this. Also not sure if anyone, including me, would be willing the incur the liability exposure of producing adapters for sale to the pubic. We shall see.
H
:cheers:

[XfireZ51]

I just saw a set of front calipers on CF sold for $400, used of course, but so what. I had just the fronts on for sometime before picking up a set of the rears along w the Street Shop adapter. The fronts alone are well worth it IMO.

[USAZR1]

This place offers Brembo conversions. I talked to Scott via email about a kit for my 70 El Camino restomod. The problem you run into with those calipers, is that their overhang sometimes requires expensive custom wheels, to clear them. http://bigbrakeupgrade.com/

I ended up going with a C6 Z51 brake set-up, from KORE3. Tobin is a brake engineer and is a great guy to deal with. If you need Corvette or Wilwood brakes, he can help you out. Here's one C6 Z06 brake kit they sell.
http://www.kore3.com/proddetail.php?prod=10336-03

[Ccmano]

This place offers Brembo conversions. I talked to Scott via email about a kit for my 70 El Camino restomod. The problem you run into with those calipers, is that their overhang sometimes requires expensive custom wheels, to clear them. http://bigbrakeupgrade.com/

I ended up going with a C6 Z51 brake set-up, from KORE3. Tobin is a brake engineer and is a great guy to deal with. If you need Corvette or Wilwood brakes, he can help you out. Here's one C6 Z06 brake kit they sell.
http://www.kore3.com/proddetail.php?prod=10336-03

Good info, thanks Clint. I’m still mulling this over. I am running C6 Grand Sport Wheels. They are 18x9.5 on the front so there is a lot of room for calipers. The Kore3 C6Z06 Kit is still $1200 with OE pads.
H
:cheers:

[USAZR1]

Jegs sells new C6Z calipers, for $299/each, but you still need pads, pins, fasteners, lines, etc. It all adds up, in a hurry.

Instead of using C6Z calipers, I'm probably going to go with Wilwood Aero6 units. A pair of those, with pads and longer brake lines, is around $900.

[msv]

If you guys want to get an idea of wheel clearance when using C6 discs, I've attached 2 pdf brake profiles. One with C6 Z51 discs that are 340x32mm and one with C6 Z06 discs that are 355x32m.

These are 1:1 scale, so you can print them out at full size if you uncheck the "fit to page" option. The hatched rectangle on the bottom will fit into the wheel centerbore in order to properly locate the profile.

Using off-the-shelf OE parts ends up making for worse clearance than if a system was really designed specifically for the C4. The C4 disc is much deeper than the C6 or C7 cars, by almost 1/2".

https://i.imgur.com/HHp8VJ0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/C8OJ5e6.jpg

[Ccmano]

Thanks, just to clarify, I assume this is utilizing the 4 Piston Camaro/Corvette C7 Z51 caliper with C6 rotors.

So in the pictures above I note an adapter. Is that a mock-up or an actual design. Appears to be a different caliper mount design than GM.

H
:cheers:

[msv]

Thanks, just to clarify, I assume this is utilizing the 4 Piston Camaro/Corvette C7 Z51 caliper with C6 rotors.

So in the pictures above I note an adapter. Is that a mock-up or an actual design. Appears to be a different caliper mount design than GM.

H
:cheers:


It is for the pictured package, not the Camaro/C7 caliper. This is a Brembo radial mount caliper that has the proper pad shape to work with the C6 discs, and the correct piston area to work properly with the C4 hydraulic/ABS system. The radial mount design makes for a much better and cleaner installation.

[Ccmano]

Care to share which brembo caliper that might be?

Needless to say, space is not an issue up to about a 355mm rotor...
H

http://a63.tinypic.com/15guhkg.jpg

[msv]

Care to share which brembo caliper that might be?

Needless to say, space is not an issue up to about a 355mm rotor...
H




It's not a caliper that is used on any OEM installations. It is a caliper that is specific to Brembo's aftermarket upgrade systems.

[XfireZ51]

When I bought my Black Rose ZR 9 years ago, it came w Brembos that were radially mounted. They worked under 17” wheels. I swapped them out when I went to 18” wheels and the front Z06 calipers. As I understand it this was a set made up of one off parts by DRM.

[msv]

When I bought my Black Rose ZR 9 years ago, it came w Brembos that were radially mounted. They worked under 17” wheels. I swapped them out when I went to 18” wheels and the front Z06 calipers. As I understand it this was a set made up of one off parts by DRM.


If it used 2-piece Brembo discs, then it was likely an off-the-shelf system from Brembo. There used to be a system with 2-piece floating 332x32mm discs using calipers similar to those I pictured offered by Brembo, but it was discontinued many years ago. That system was meant for 17" wheels.

[XfireZ51]

I would bet it was simply an off-the-shelf system from Brembo. There used to be a 332x32mm system with calipers similar to those I pictured, but it was discontinued many years ago.

I was told it was a mix and match of parts.

[-=Jeff=-]

If it used 2-piece Brembo discs, then it was likely an off-the-shelf system from Brembo. There used to be a system with 2-piece floating 332x32mm discs using calipers similar to those I pictured offered by Brembo, but it was discontinued many years ago. That system was meant for 17" wheels.

YEs it did, the hats were thicker and pushed out the wheels.. I bought the system from Dominic, then sold it in favor of the Wilwood.. I do have another set of Brembo Calipers of the same type as the ones Dominic and I had

[msv]

YEs it did, the hats were thicker and pushed out the wheels.. I bought the system from Dominic, then sold it in favor of the Wilwood.. I do have another set of Brembo Calipers of the same type as the ones Dominic and I had


The one that Brembo did didn't push out the wheels, the hats were regular thickness. So it does sound like something they put together themselves.