Feel bad about prices of ZR-1s? I can make you feel worse...

[WARP TEN]

A 1994 Toyota Supra with 11.200 miles sold at RM Sotheby's in March for $174,000 plus fees. It had sold a year or two earlier for $99,000 and everyone thought that was nuts. Oh well, my newer Z06 is still depreciating at an alarming pace so I am in the same boat.--Bob

[fred]

Never understood the prices on the 93-98 Supras (they've always been ridiculous...for what they are) but that's insane. Maybe its the bags of white powder in the doors.

[G8nightman]

Supra has big following it can thank the fast and furious movies.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[KILLSHOTS]

Makes no sense to me. I always felt that twin turbo 300ZXs of the same era were much more appealing cars, but they haven't appreciated at all. These Supras, 911s and late-70s Trans Ams are all head-scratchers to me.

[Young1]

To increase the pain look on Bring a Trailer.
Datsun 240Z. $44,000 and yet bidding
Honda NSX. $80,000 and yet bidding

[mcich7781]

Their loss...

If our cars were that expensive I wouldn't have been able afford or experience ZR-1 ownership.

We are truly blessed.

Sent from my SM-G955U using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[Vettemann98]

Supra has big following it can thank the fast and furious movies.


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[Vettemann98]

Those were and are ugly looking pieces of crap in my opinion. Go ahead and let them waste their money. 9505. This is what I’m talking about!! Now that’s an awesome looking hand built bullet proof engine that will eat any Supra as a snack.


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[G8nightman]

I wouldn’t say any Supra some are 1000 + hp


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[Vettemann98]

A 1994 stock Supra???


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[Mystic ZR-1]

I wouldn’t say any Supra some are 1000 + hp


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Not for long....

[G8nightman]

A 1994 stock Supra???


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Of course not stock


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[Ccmano]

Like I always tell my wife when talking politics and it applies for this subject as well.... reality has nothing to do with any of it.
H
:cheers:

[Z51JEFF]

I couldn’t agree more that generation of Supra is not a good looking car but there is no denying the popularity,personally the body style before that was so much nicer. Then again I can’t understand why early Mustangs have always been more popular than early Camaros.

[rush91]

Their loss...

If our cars were that expensive I wouldn't have been able afford or experience ZR-1 ownership.

We are truly blessed.

Sent from my SM-G955U using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)


Amen to that! All I know is the area I live in, the 1ST thing people ask is "that a real ZR-1?. I've never seen one." If I had a dime for every time I've heard that in 4 years of ownership....


I don't get the 77-81 Trans Ams volcanic prices now. Didn't they built like a billion of those? Next thing you know, IROC-Zs will be going for $50k.

[rossgn49u]

Look at it this way.....a lot of us (me included) would be unable to own a C4 ZR-1, if it weren't for the under appreciated values.

[Ccmano]

Look at it this way.....a lot of us (me included) would be unable to own a C4 ZR-1, if it weren't for the under appreciated values.

There are many of us in that boat and would agree.
H
:cheers:

[MarkSS]

I just sold my 1990 ZR1 for 19,500 this weekend and this made me feel bad.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/tool-kit/

In case you don't click, it is a pieced together tool kit for a Ferrari that sold for $18000.

[ghlkal]

If our cars were that expensive I wouldn't have been able afford or experience ZR-1 ownership.

We are truly blessed.





Yup, I agree.



I'll just enjoy driving it, even if it's only worth something to me :)

[32valvZ]

I just sold my 1990 ZR1 for 19,500 this weekend and this made me feel bad.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/tool-kit/

In case you don't click, it is a pieced together tool kit for a Ferrari that sold for $18000.

Good grief man.... thats just stupid....

[WARP TEN]

Good grief man.... thats just stupid....

Actually not so much when your car is a two to three million dollar car and this item helps it sell, maybe at a higher price. Or maybe a 275 GTB/4 NART Spider around $25 million.--Bob

[spork2367]

To increase the pain look on Bring a Trailer.
Datsun 240Z. $44,000 and yet bidding
Honda NSX. $80,000 and yet bidding

BAT went from being a great site with some good deals, to Porsche central and home of the overpriced vehicle. Here's some shining examples (mostly Fords oddly enough, might just say something about ford people...j/k)

1990 F150, 30k miles, 2wd, 6 cyl. Sold for 9k...

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1990-ford-f150/

1986 F150, unknown original mileage, 15k

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1986-ford-f-150-5/

1986 Bronco II 2.9L, 60k miles, 10k (I have an identical one rusting out in the back 40)

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1986-ford-bronco-ii-3/


Good grief man.... thats just stupid....

I can't speak to that item specifically, but I can say that on a weekly basis things sell on BAT that you could literally go purchase on Ebay at the same time, for a fraction of the price.

Porches and Corvettes seem to sell for pretty close to market value.

[Mystic ZR-1]

No worse than having all the ‘right stuff’ for
an NCRS Top Flight. Just a bit more expen$ive...

[ZWILD1]

Thanks a lot for making me feel worse. I just bought my car last summer. I felt pretty good about the car and the price I paid. I got more car for less money than I paid for my first ZR1 back in 2003. The whole reason I bought the car I did was I wanted the most H.P. I could for the buck. I probably could have bought a C5 Z06 that had been heavily modded engine wise with higher mileage for about the same money. But I like the 90-95 ZR1's.

[WARP TEN]

Thanks a lot for making me feel worse. I just bought my car last summer. I felt pretty good about the car and the price I paid. I got more car for less money than I paid for my first ZR1 back in 2003. The whole reason I bought the car I did was I wanted the most H.P. I could for the buck. I probably could have bought a C5 Z06 that had been heavily modded engine wise with higher mileage for about the same money. But I like the 90-95 ZR1's.

Sorry to make you feel worse, but you do note there is a good reason to get one--great performance for dollars spent (although I can assure you it is possible to spend much, much more for additional performance!) Plus, the engine story and engineering are amazing and the cars are very rare--how many to you see at shows? With my '93 and 95 cars I rarely if ever saw others like them. And there is certainly a terrific group of knowledgeable current and former owners here to help on anything that needs it. --Bob

[mcich7781]

Hey ZWILD1 - I have 91 Turquoise #135 (368 CID - DRM 500 Car).

They probably didn't even clean the paint guns out when your car was painted.


Taking it to Bowling Green next week. Another 91 Turq. will be there as well.

[32valvesftw]

I'll just leave this here
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1996-chevrolet-corvette-grand-sport/

[Young1]

All it has is a paint job. I don't get the grand sport thing thing.

[Regimof3]

It's more than a paint job

I am a huge fan of the grand sport. At least that one. The lt4 is a really REALLY good motor. My boss picked up a 96 with one in it and it scoots.

[32valvesftw]

It's more than a paint job

I am a huge fan of the grand sport. At least that one. The lt4 is a really REALLY good motor. My boss picked up a 96 with one in it and it scoots.

No disputing that but any of out ZR-1s would crush it on any course anywhere, anytime. I think its the low production numbers that make the difference.

[Regimof3]

No disputing that but any of out ZR-1s would crush it on any course anywhere, anytime. I think its the low production numbers that make the difference.


I don't know about crush it. Those things have been widely reported as under rated with the 330 up. I'm not saying it's gonna beat us, but stock for stock a strong one will give an lt5 everything it wants.

[rush91]

I don't know about crush it. Those things have been widely reported as under rated with the 330 up. I'm not saying it's gonna beat us, but stock for stock a strong one will give an lt5 everything it wants.

That maybe true....the LT4 was a great motor. But it's a number less, because it's no LT5 :). And didn't the LT4s have Optispark? Yikes!!! I've heard nothing but nightmares about that.

[32valvesftw]

So what endurance records does the LT4 Hold? Asking for a friend.

[Karl]

So what endurance records does the LT4 Hold? Asking for a friend.

None

[MarkSS]

I appreciate the LT4 and it was highly praised by John Heinricy as a send off for the small block, however, you could get the LT4 in any 6 speed 96 Vette and they don't command anywhere close to Grand Sport prices. The only performance difference on the Grand Sport is the wider rear wheels, otherwise it is a paint job.

I am glad that ZR1s have been down in value since it allowed me to have a car that when they came out I thought I would never have (was a junior in high school in 1990). However, based on the performance offered, the unique engineering, and the performance history (speed record runs), I don't understand why they are so undervalued by the collector market, and the Grand Sport just illustrates that it isn't just because they are C4s.

I really enjoyed my first ZR1 but have upgraded to a Lingenfelter 368 version which is almost ready to enjoy this summer and for many to come.

[Z51JEFF]

I'll just leave this here
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1996-chevrolet-corvette-grand-sport/

A few years ago this was a $60,000 car.

[spork2367]

I don't understand why they are so undervalued by the collector market, and the Grand Sport just illustrates that it isn't just because they are C4s.

First thing, there are just far less Grand Sports. 1000 in one year only. That is about 15% of the ZR-1 production. On top of that, there aren't near as many low mileage Grand Sports as a percentage of overall production compared to ZR-1s. It wasn't nearly as expensive of an option, so people drove the cars.

Lastly, this particular example is better prepared than 95% of the low mileage ZR-1s. This isn't just a low mileage car, it is new, and the presentation shows it as such. There have been some sub 1000 mile ZR-1s that were being sold dirty, with crappy pictures, running poorly, etc. Simply locking a car in a barn and not driving it isn't the same as keeping an original low mileage car in "as new" condition.

[mcich7781]

I have had the good fortune to have owned an LT4 and an LT5 Corvette at the same time for a couple of years. My driving impression was that the LT4 wheezed when pushed to the limit, where the LT5 just keeps on pulling.

Numbers are numbers and the LT4 is no slouch, but the seat of the pants feel of both cars is significantly different. The ZR-1 was just more enjoyable to drive.

[Ccmano]

Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. As with many things it’s subjective. You can rationalize C4 Grand Sport value all you want it’s still just a low volume paint job with a special serial number. A GM merchandising ploy. Rationally it should be valued only slightly higher than any 96’ LT4. Subjectively people seem to loose control of their wallets when they see one. Alas our Z’s are the opposite. Rationally it has all the makings of an American exotic. Subjectively people let their fear of the engine parts and service availability (whether true or not) over ride their desires. In the end we can wring our hands all we want, until that perception changes or somehow the perceived value of the the Z over rides that fear (as with many exotics and classics) then value of a Z will not materially go up.

And there you have my 2 cents...
H
:cheers:

[spork2367]

Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. As with many things it’s subjective. You can rationalize C4 Grand Sport value all you want it’s still just a low volume paint job with a special serial number. A GM merchandising ploy. Rationally it should be valued only slightly higher than any 96’ LT4. Subjectively people seem to loose control of their wallets when they see one. Alas our Z’s are the opposite. Rationally it has all the makings of an American exotic. Subjectively people let their fear of the engine parts and service availability (whether true or not) over ride their desires. In the end we can wring our hands all we want, until that perception changes or somehow the perceived value of the the Z over rides that fear (as with many exotics and classics) then value of a Z will not materially go up.

And there you have my 2 cents...
H
:cheers:

Availability isn't subjective. There are a small fraction of Grand Sports as compared to ZR-1s. Mileage of available cars isn't subjective. There are percentage wise, many more low mileage ZR-1s than Grand Sports. Condition also isn't subjective. This car is not just low mileage, it is "as new." The majority of low mileage ZR-1s aren't concours "as new" cars. In fact many are in piss poor condition.

So this car is rare among rare cars.

Desirability of a low production engine vs a regular production engine, pushrod vs DOHC, wide body, etc...That's subjective. Would I take this Grand Sport over a 5-10k mile ZR-1...absolutely not.

[Ccmano]

My comments were directed at Grand Sports vs ZR-1’s in general. Not this specific car.

Ultimately, all decisions we make are subjective. They can be based on fact or perception, they can be rational or emotional and more likely a combination of all of these.

My point is again, with regard to Grand Sports vs ZR-1’s in general, if you factually list the attributes of the one vs the other the ZR-1 simply has more of what are generally considered desirable attributes.

In my opinion the fact that so many value a Grand Sport higher than a ZR-1 is a subjective decision based more on emotion and perception than on fact. Simply saying there were only 1000 GS’s made should not in and of itself make them more desirable. A GS is still only a paint job and a special serial number.

Nevertheless decisions we make regarding cars, the opposite sex and many other things are not rational and based purely on fact. By their very nature they are emotional.

What I find interesting is that the GS aficionado does not like to admit their largely emotional attachment to their choice and the ZR-1 aficionado is insulted that the long list of what should be desirable attributes is not more valued.

H
:cheers:

[Mystic ZR-1]

Supra has big following it can thank the fast and furious movies.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

According to “Automobile” magazine (June 2019 issue). The top auction price for a Supra is $199800. It was an ex-“Fast and Furious” movie car.

[Meanmyz]

I have had the good fortune to have owned an LT4 and an LT5 Corvette at the same time for a couple of years. My driving impression was that the LT4 wheezed when pushed to the limit, where the LT5 just keeps on pulling.

Numbers are numbers and the LT4 is no slouch, but the seat of the pants feel of both cars is significantly different. The ZR-1 was just more enjoyable to drive.

I agree with this assessment. Since 2009, I have had a 1996 Corvette Grand Sport (15,000 miles). It is 100% stock down to the front tires (the rears are NOS GSC's). I have a stock '94 ZR-1 with 13,000 miles; my dad's '95 ZR-1 with 3,000 miles (both still on GS-C's) and my modified ZR-1 with 55,000 miles.

Comparing the stock cars, the LT4 doesn't have the "kick" of the LT5. This isn't the right word, but the LT4 "flutters" above 3000 rpm, it "wheezes", as said above. Maybe this is a misconception and we are accelerating quite fast? Well, it certainly doesn't offer the "keep on keeping on" kick in the pants power delivery of the LT5. The ZR-1's, even in stock form are a blast to drive.

I have gone back and forth on this (because it won't be stock), but I think I am going to put a Corsa on the Grand Sport in the hopes of giving it more character. As it is with the stock exhaust, I can hardly hear the car (I have to listen closely so I can hear to rev match).

When I drive the Grand Sport, I have people pulling out their cell phones to take pictures. ...But from the driver's seat, I am not feeling the same emotion. Don't get me wrong, I like my Grand Sport.

From the driver's seat, the ZR-1 gives me "permagrin". I think that if more people knew about the driving experience in a ZR-1, that most of us wouldn't be able to afford a ZR-1.

At this point, maybe the problem is just that people just associate the ZR-1 as another C4, of which the only problem is that a lot of them were made and they are perceived as low horsepower. Most of the people with this perception have never driven a nice C4, in my opinion. Outside of the ZR-1 (on a higher keel), all C4's offer a neat driving experience.

[spork2367]

My point is again, with regard to Grand Sports vs ZR-1’s in general, if you factually list the attributes of the one vs the other the ZR-1 simply has more of what are generally considered desirable attributes.

In my opinion the fact that so many value a Grand Sport higher than a ZR-1 is a subjective decision based more on emotion and perception than on fact. Simply saying there were only 1000 GS’s made should not in and of itself make them more desirable. A GS is still only a paint job and a special serial number.

What I find interesting is that the GS aficionado does not like to admit their largely emotional attachment to their choice and the ZR-1 aficionado is insulted that the long list of what should be desirable attributes is not more valued.


“Generally considered desirable attributes” by who? More people value appearance in a car than mechanical attributes (in auto industry as a whole). The next biggest factor is supply and demand. The demand for clean Grand Sports exceeds the supply. Visually, the paint and graphics set the Grand sport apart from all other C4s from even a distance. The ZR-1 looks like every other C4 from a distance. And the supply of low mileage ZR-1s far exceeds the demand. Would the ZR-1 be worth more or less if they made 20k of them?

The list of attributes that the ZR-1 has that set it apart from the Grand Sport numbers one...the engine. The attachment to the ZR-1 is largely emotional when for the same price or slightly less someone can buy a C5 that is 98% the car stock and 105% the car with a cam and exhaust (for a small fraction of the cost for cams and an exhaust for the ZR-1). Twice the comfort, and a fraction of the cost to maintain and repair. We’re all guilty of the emotional attachment.

I drive a 2004 C5 regularly, but I won’t deny my emotional attachment to the ZR-1.

For reference, here was another from BAT:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1996-chevrolet-corvette-29/

[BigJohn]

Y’all need to thin the Herd

[Regimof3]

I had no idea the c4 g.s. vs. the c4 zr1 was so heated.

I like the lt4. I love the lt5. I just don't think you can throw it aside and disregard it. I can see why people want the GS and why they Garner the cash. 1 year paint. 1 year motor. It's the classic recipe.

[Ccmano]

I’ve said my piece, I’m done.
H
:cheers:

[Livin' in the 80's]

Maybe someone has already posted this. What a good deal this was.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Chevrolet-Corvette-ZR-1-/163674263686?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true

[Livin' in the 80's]

My comments were directed at Grand Sports vs ZR-1’s in general. Not this specific car.

Ultimately, all decisions we make are subjective. They can be based on fact or perception, they can be rational or emotional and more likely a combination of all of these.

My point is again, with regard to Grand Sports vs ZR-1’s in general, if you factually list the attributes of the one vs the other the ZR-1 simply has more of what are generally considered desirable attributes.

In my opinion the fact that so many value a Grand Sport higher than a ZR-1 is a subjective decision based more on emotion and perception than on fact. Simply saying there were only 1000 GS’s made should not in and of itself make them more desirable. A GS is still only a paint job and a special serial number.

Nevertheless decisions we make regarding cars, the opposite sex and many other things are not rational and based purely on fact. By their very nature they are emotional.

What I find interesting is that the GS aficionado does not like to admit their largely emotional attachment to their choice and the ZR-1 aficionado is insulted that the long list of what should be desirable attributes is not more valued.

H
:cheers:

It's easy. Shoot to own both a GS and ZR1.

[32valvesftw]

Well I think those GS wheels would look great on my black Z I am surprised that is not done more often.

[Z51JEFF]

Anybody seen the prices of early 70s Mazda RX 2-3? About $30,000 average.

[BigJohn]

They are over forty years old with few survivors.

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

There are over 40,000 427 Powered Corvettes
Certainly NOT "rare". (likely more of them now)


There are less than 7,000 LT-5 Powered Corvettes.


Patience.


Marty

[32valvZ]

There are over 40,000 427 Powered Corvettes
Certainly NOT "rare". (likely more of them now)


There are less than 7,000 LT-5 Powered Corvettes.


Patience.


Marty

Ive always wondered how many are REALLY left.... taking into consideration wrecked ones, natural disaster events and part outs etc.... Do you think it would be reasonable to say there might be 1000 less than the original amount released/sold between 90-95?

[WARP TEN]

Ive always wondered how many are REALLY left.... taking into consideration wrecked ones, natural disaster events and part outs etc.... Do you think it would be reasonable to say there might be 1000 less than the original amount released/sold between 90-95?

Certainly not an unreasonable estimate. I always used to think that for my '93 and '95, with attrition there are probably no more than about 400 of each left in the world out of the original 448 for each year. But that is just my guess. While not directly related, I recently saw an estimate that about 75% of 1953 Corvettes are known to exist, 225 out of the original 300. --Bob

[Livin' in the 80's]

Ive always wondered how many are REALLY left.... taking into consideration wrecked ones, natural disaster events and part outs etc.... Do you think it would be reasonable to say there might be 1000 less than the original amount released/sold between 90-95?

I can tell you (1) 1990 ZR1 that was wrecked in 1992. As soon as one of my neighbors found out about my ZR1, he told me the story about the one he bought and totaled 2 years after buying it. He was lucky and didn't get hurt-flipped it end over end into the woods. He had targa top on and it saved his ***. Of course he was driving way past his ability.

[FormulaReed]

I feel lucky that the values are low. I’ve owned a few cars that I was fortunate to buy when they were cheep.
I had a 72’ 911S, it was an amazing car and when I got mine in 98’, it was $12k. I tracked it and daily drove it. Did the same thing with my 76’ Carrera. Alfa Romeo gtv and an e30 m3.

I sold them on before they got crazy valuable but the real value was being able to enjoy them at the track or just on the street without worrying about what might happen.

I think that c4 zr1s will go up in value. I can’t be the only guy that had a poster of one when they were a kid. The rest of the poster cars of its era like the 911, testrosa, nsx etc. are taking off. Personally, I really don’t care. The enjoyment that I get out of the cars I’ve owned is in driving, building and restoring them.

If I sell mine on and make a profit, cool. If not, I got to enjoy it so that’s cool too.