Battery not Charging - Dead Alternator?

[wutanec]

On the 35 mile commute to work (once every two weeks in the ZR1!), on the 10 mile mark, I noticed the volt meter is dropping gradually and eventually I had to pull off to the side and shut off the car because the battery was going flat and the lights and gauge cluster were flickering.

I had it towed to Corvette Mike here in Placentia, CA. They charged the battery and started her up again and viola! the car is running fine and battery is charging again? Carl at Corvette Mike had the car run for a while and it kept charging on without a problem. We could not figure out what is going on...

Would it be the alternator just acting up? Old Battery? (2014)
I am glad the car is running fine but then again, I am worried this might happen again and want to prevent this if I can. Should I just replace the alternator and the battery? or could this be some kind of other electrical gremlin?

Only thing I did different recently to the car is that I have installed a Haibeck chip about a two weeks ago. could this be related?

[lfalzarano]

Since the battery is 4 years old, I would replace it also. Even a good alternator can’t save an old battery, especially in a warm/hot climate.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[A26B]

Since the battery is 4 years old, I would replace it also. Even a good alternator can’t save an old battery, especially in a warm/hot climate.

I agree. Putting a new alternator on a bad battery can also damage the new alternator.

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

Sage advice above.
A four year old battery may be ok, but start with a new known good one.
A battery costs less than one hour of senior tech diagnostic time wasted checking out silly things that need to be ruled out.
Also make certain that your cable connections are all tight first. An alternator can make power, but if there is a loose cable that is moving around, nothing gets to the battery.
A new battery installed with tight connections is always the best place to start.
While alternators certainly can behave or misbehave intermittently, a four year old battery would still likely need replacing if the alternator has and continues to act up.
Keep us posted.
Marty

[WVZR-1]

On this occasion you chose a 'for hire' service so I'd think a very reasonable approach would be to have the battery and charging system checked by a professional using 'carbon pile load' diagnostics. I don't believe you could declare a 4 year old battery 'dead/scrap' without proper checks and jumping to an assumption that alternator is also bad maybe foolish.

Have it confirmed. If you don't understand the diagnostics involved the 'for hire' could likely save you $$$.

[G8nightman]

Did your batt light come on at all?

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

On this occasion you chose a 'for hire' service so I'd think a very reasonable approach would be to have the battery and charging system checked by a professional using 'carbon pile load' diagnostics. I don't believe you could declare a 4 year old battery 'dead/scrap' without proper checks and jumping to an assumption that alternator is also bad maybe foolish.

Have it confirmed. If you don't understand the diagnostics involved the 'for hire' could likely save you $$$.



Like you, I also always advocate sophisticated testing of a battery such as load testing over time with good equipment.


However, he has likely already paid a shop to do some level of diagnostics (I would hope) on his battery before charging it, which resulted in no diagnosis. Not an unusual outcome.
Shop Labor rates are $100 plus per hour, and may or may not be conclusive, leaving you $100.00 lighter.
Buying a $100.00 battery and installing it correctly at least leaves you with a new battery if nothing else.
With a four year old battery not a terrible waste given it is already post "for hire".
Keep the new battery on a battery tender, and you have eliminated the most common of causes.
Marty

[Ccmano]

Any Autozone or O’Reilly auto parts store will check the battery and alternator for free. The test noted above, known as a battery capacity test, will ferret out a bad or weak sulfated battery. Alternators can be intermittent. I just did one on a friends Toyota truck that would charge intermittently and finally quit after about 2 weeks. Keep in mind unless the alternator can be seen going off and on or shows low output it will show as “good” when tested. That said, have them tested and go from there.
H
:cheers:

[Paul Workman]

A good "RULE(s) OF THUMB" is:

A
ANY voltage reading above 12.6 when the alternator is spinning (motor idling normally), rest assured the alternator IS CHARGING.

Typically, after motor starts, with the headlights OFF, the charge voltage is 14.7± .1. But, after fully charged and/or the motor and under-hood temps normalize, the regulator drops it back to ~ 13.8 ±

After 10 sec (carbon pile) load test, a good, fully charged battery should read no less than 9 volts UNDER TEST.

Automotive lead-acid batteries consist of 6 internal cells, each producing ~ 2.1 volts each for a total of 12.6. If a "charged" battery is allowed to rest and reads 10.5 volts, it indicates s probable dead cell and must be replaced.

Without periodic charging, the acid will combine with the lead plates forming lead sulfate. The sulfate crystals form a sheet covering the lead plates with an insulating film*. This film reduces the active surface area of the plates, decreasing the battery capacity to produce power (most evident when the starter is attempting to spin the motor).


*Installing an auxiliary battery terminal switch only eliminates external battery drain. However, the forming of sulfate drains the battery internally. True, cold temperatures slows any chemical reactions down, i.e. winter months. However, sulfate production can be checked by periodic charging e.g., daily/weekly driving or using a batter tender/charger when the car/battery is in (winter) storage.

Christmas is coming. And for the man who has "everything" or must have the right tool for the right job, a battery load tester from AutoZone makes a good suggestion. It makes diagnosing battery and alternator condition a lot faster and easier - eliminates (most all) battery/alternator guesswork.

[Dynomite]

Here we go again...….I posted up that if the LT5 fires up the next day or two or a week later after a full charge (not having been discharged by a nonoperational alternator), then focus on the Alternator which can show up as an intermittent problem when it is Going South. Everyone then posted Battery Battery Battery.

Well...….I run on batteries until they will not hold a charge for a few days such that the starting voltage will not turn the engine over to a start condition (depending on the season also....Temperatures). Simple.....and I use a Battery Disconnect switch on all vehicles Disconnecting the battery for two days.....a week.....several months with NO ISSUES on restarting. I loose radio favorites :D


I would much rather focus on the Alternator if the battery starts the car a day or two later than the battery simply because if the alternator goes out, you are stuck draining an otherwise good battery to death even as you are driving and then you are dead in the water not even being able to push start.


I have a battery now in a Toyota that needs help starting the car when it is 10 deg but starts the car fine at higher temperatures. And once the car is warmed up a minute that battery functions normally all day long. I just put a charger on the battery below 10 deg for a minute or two and start the car with charger connected. No issues.....will get several more months of use out of that battery I am sure (that battery which is 4-5 years old needed a charge after sitting for several months disconnected but functions great once recharged) :p

BATTERY AND CHARGING
Battery poll (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1351)
Alternator Replacement without Pulling Plenum TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=248848)
Alternator TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=248278)
The Battery Disconnect Switch TIPS (http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-8.html#post1587653767)
Quality Power Alternators TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=217167)
Alternator Rubber Boot Replace TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23045)
How To Replace Battery TIP (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=177060)
Alternator Pulley TIP (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=175118)
Battery Connection Wrench TIP (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=161599)
Serpentine Belt Path (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-5.html#post1581825220)
Replacing Battery Cable Bolts (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3134974-zr1-wont-start-help.html#post1581906003)
Replacing An Alternator (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3006360-serpentine-belt-path-on-1990-a.html#post1580083449)
SYS light flashing (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8464)
Roll start (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13285)
Removing alternator (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=79567)
Ebay ZR1 Alternator (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=ZR1+alternator&_sacat=0&_odkw=ZR1+Radiator&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313)
Ebay ZR1 LT5 Belt (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=ZR1+LT5+Belt&_sacat=0&_odkw=LT5+thermostat&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313)

[wutanec]

So here is a little update.

I picked up the car from the shop because I did not want to comound diagnostic fees and the car to take up their shop space. but they did not charge me anything! Very nice of them I think. Now I am going to try to track it down myself.

Upon picking up the car, it started right up, battery seems to be charging at a healthy rate. Driving back home, I did a WOT and battery stops charging right then again. Weird thing I noticed was that it was idling high afterwards - kind of like it is running rich.

Do you guys still think it could be alternator related? or could the Chip cause something like this also (Haibeck chip has been around long enough, so i doubt it)? I have an alternator coming in but wanted to see if it is something else.

[32valvZ]

I think an alternator will solve the issue. The give away to me is when you hit WOT... it stopped charging. So that tells me either you have a very loose serpentine belt or perhaps a diode going south on you...

[Ccmano]

So here is a little update.

I picked up the car from the shop because I did not want to comound diagnostic fees and the car to take up their shop space. but they did not charge me anything! Very nice of them I think. Now I am going to try to track it down myself.

Upon picking up the car, it started right up, battery seems to be charging at a healthy rate. Driving back home, I did a WOT and battery stops charging right then again. Weird thing I noticed was that it was idling high afterwards - kind of like it is running rich.

Do you guys still think it could be alternator related? or could the Chip cause something like this also (Haibeck chip has been around long enough, so i doubt it)? I have an alternator coming in but wanted to see if it is something else.

Has absolutely nothing to do with your chip. The intermittent nature of the issue points towards the alternator. To be sure take it to Autozone and have them check the battery and the alternator.
H
:cheers:

[wutanec]

That's great to hear...gives me peace of mind :) alright I will replace the alternator and see if that solves.

[Dynomite]

I do not think anyone has mentioned this before...…….but there is a third option for replacing Alternator.

1. Remove Alternator without removing Plenum.....(very difficult)
2. Remove Plenum...…..(A big job for some having to disconnect everything from DIS).
3. Tip Plenum up in front (about 4 or 5 inches more or less) without disconnecting anything under Plenum (Just remove Plenum Bolts).

Removing Plenum or Tipping Plenum would require lowering coolant level if TB Coolant not blocked.

I have not done this third method yet as I always recondition everything when I have Plenum off. But if you want to do a quick Alternator change out.....seems Tipping the Plenum is the way to go. Tipping the Plenum or Removing the Plenum would require (in most cases) a new Plenum Gasket from Jerry's.

[wutanec]

I have not heard of the third option. I will try to do it with option 1, if deemed impossible, I will try option 3. Thank you for the help!

[Paul Workman]

I do not think anyone has mentioned this before...…….but there is a third option for replacing Alternator.

1. Remove Alternator without removing Plenum.....(very difficult)
2. Remove Plenum...…..(A big job for some having to disconnect everything from DIS).
3. Tip Plenum up in front (about 4 or 5 inches more or less) without disconnecting anything (Just remove Plenum Bolts).

Removing Plenum or Tipping Plenum would require lowering coolant level if TB Coolant not blocked.

I have not done this third method yet as I always recondition everything when I have Plenum off. But if you want to do a quick Alternator change out.....seems Tipping the Plenum is the way to go. Tipping the Plenum and Removing the Plenum would require (in most cases) a new Plenum Gasket from Jerry's.

=D>

Just to add: IF coolant through the TB has been plugged, tipping the plenum is a 10 minute job, no spillage, AND the gasket is likely reusable - unless you have air-powered ratchets (like me) and then the plenum comes off even quicker.

[lfalzarano]

You can just remove the throttle body and air horn. Just get a new gasket for the TB to plenum... Easy....


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[wutanec]

A little update: to help out who might have similar problem.

While I was getting ready to take everything apart,
went to the alternator to disconnect the wires but I found one of the connector was barely touching the alternator bathing in grease with a broken clip!
I think somebody who worked on the car in the past probably broke it off, and greased it up hoping it would hold.
It looked like it have been this way for a long time.

I rolled up a piece of paper to wedge it in as a temporary solution and the car is now charging at a healthy rate!
such a simple problem but I am so glad I can drive the car again.
Just in time for Radwood LA this weekend! :)

Now, obviously I am not going to keep it looking like this. Is there a more permanent solution? or can I buy the connector somewhere and replace it?

[WVZR-1]

You shouldn't need to do anything but shop 'local' for a 3-wire CS144 alternator connector BUT if you'd like there is a vendor on eBay that does offer 3 wire CS144 in most any wire configuration you'd like. There's a fellow here that I believe has used this vendor to assure he gets correct 'wire configuration' for restorations. Strangely enough he actually has a eBay offering mentioning LT5 configuration. Reach out maybe assuring you get proper lengths to make you effort as easy as possible. I believe the snapshot wire configuration is actually correct for a '90 L98 and PNK/BLK should be changed likely. Confirm!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alternator-Connector-Pigtail-CS-Series-CS130-CS121-CS144-3-Wire-PT-ALT-CS-3W-A/263269544629?hash=item3d4c1672b5:g:mgIAAOSwdW1Z593 K

If I needed a connector this is the guy I'd reach out if there wasn't something I liked 'local'. If you don't mind the wait it's for sure the better choice. His stuff is 'correctly' assembled.

[XfireZ51]

In this case it appears to be a bad connector. I recently pulled my battery because I check fluid level in the cells periodically. I needed to add distilled water and so pulled the battery otherwise its difficult to do it properly. While I had the battery out I sprayed some Kroil into the bolt bosses for the cables. Cleaned off the threads on the cables off. Then put the battery on a charger for the night to make sure all the cells were “firing”. Up to this point I had been dealing w a voltmeter gauge that would fluctuate especially when turn signals or fans would kick in. The deflection in the pointer was pretty significant and even at steady cruise I would see the pointer vibrating. Marc looked at it and thought I could be the gauge that needed replacing. The digital readout on the cluster would also show a voltage fluctuation so it was not just a gauge issue.
Well after topping off the battery, cleaning the cable inputs and a full charge,
No more vibrating pointer. Voltage steady as a rock. Before this, I was concerned about the alternator as well.
Just thought I would put that out there.

[Paul Workman]

In this case it appears to be a bad connector. I recently pulled my battery because I check fluid level in the cells periodically. I needed to add distilled water and so pulled the battery otherwise its difficult to do it properly. While I had the battery out I sprayed some Kroil into the bolt bosses for the cables. Cleaned off the threads on the cables off. Then put the battery on a charger for the night to make sure all the cells were “firing”. Up to this point I had been dealing w a voltmeter gauge that would fluctuate especially when turn signals or fans would kick in. The deflection in the pointer was pretty significant and even at steady cruise I would see the pointer vibrating. Marc looked at it and thought I could be the gauge that needed replacing. The digital readout on the cluster would also show a voltage fluctuation so it was not just a gauge issue.
Well after topping off the battery, cleaning the cable inputs and a full charge,
No more vibrating pointer. Voltage steady as a rock. Before this, I was concerned about the alternator as well.
Just thought I would put that out there.

A German fella by the name of Georg Simon Ohm "put it out there" circa 1800...Just sayin.:mrgreen: