Solution for Parts Availability Concerns

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

Seems every week, the sky is falling.


Some lament that ZR-1 parts are getting hard to find, will soon run out, cars will become scrap, extinct and worthless.


Some facts.
Chicken Little also felt the same way about Fuel Injection parts for 50's and 60's Corvettes. He said there were only 10,000 or so made, and they are becoming extinct and Fuelies will become worthless.


Never Happened!


Came Close, but then folks started to harvest parts from deceased cars, NOS parts kept turning up, re-builders stepped in as prices soared for the unobtanium, and low and behold, even though over FIFTY YEARS have passed, I can still this day get any piece I need, or an entire unit as long as I open my check book.


While I have been told that dinosaurs died, and they did, there is no rational argument that proves that the same thing won't play out for ZR-1 parts. While some may FEEL that no one will want these cars in the future, that has never been factually proven to date.


When some restorer needs an ignition module to finish a full restoration that has taken years and tens of thousands of dollars to complete, do you really think they won't write the required check to get one?


And when they stand with pen poised over the check, you really don't think some entrepreneur will find a way to give them what they need to get that "priceless" part.


God, I love capitalism!


Now,
ZR-1 parts have a two fold issue.
1- there are not many
2- EVERYONE maintains a stash!


They then read the stuff on this and other forums, and they buy and stash more and more exacerbating the problem.


SOLUTION


Form the 1st National Bank of ZR-1 Registry Parts.


You become a "depositor" by placing some or all of your stash in the "BANK"
As you deposit you build up a "value" equal to the current market value of your deposits.
Depositors only may make withdrawals of ANY part currently held by the bank at today's market price plus 10% for the bank.


Given some time, the hordes of stashed parts would move into the bank and become available to those that need them, likely fulfilling the actual "NEEDS" for many years to come.


Unavailable parts could be listed as wanted with a current willing to buy price. As those prices rise, someone will step in and find a way to develop a solution.


Just a brief outline, but you get the idea.
Members can submit refinements and suggestions and eventually a workable bank would become feasible.
The Registry could either hire someone to run the bank, or source it out to any company that wants to run it. ( I do not ).
There are likely many, many potential depositors out there.


These cars will become restoration candidates in the future.
As such, then vendors that furnish parts today for the 53 and up, will soon discover the C-4 ZR-1 market as the demand begins to swell.


OK, I think I will solve world peace now.
Marty

[Corvettes White]

I do not trust banks. Perfer to keep my parts and money
under the mattress. 😁

[spork2367]

Seems every week, the sky is falling.


Some lament that ZR-1 parts are getting hard to find, will soon run out, cars will become scrap, extinct and worthless.


Some facts.
Chicken Little also felt the same way about Fuel Injection parts for 50's and 60's Corvettes. He said there were only 10,000 or so made, and they are becoming extinct and Fuelies will become worthless.


Never Happened!


Came Close, but then folks started to harvest parts from deceased cars, NOS parts kept turning up, re-builders stepped in as prices soared for the unobtanium, and low and behold, even though over FIFTY YEARS have passed, I can still this day get any piece I need, or an entire unit as long as I open my check book.

Every couple months there is another part people notice isn't available where they used to see it.

Will the cars become scrap? No. Might they be cost prohibitive to maintain? Yes.

Big difference between mechanical fuel injection and ZR-1 parts being that essentially any one of those parts can easily be manufactured with minimal investment. The worst items being castings. Plus Rochester made fuel injection units for dozens of other applications which shared small parts. And while parts and units are expensive, the cars are VERY expensive. So an 8-10k unit may only be 10% of the value of the car (and it would be rare to need to replace a whole unit). And if the car was missing the unit, spending 10k to replace it would raise the overall value 20k. So it would be a good investment.

Plus, they made about 12,500 mechanically fuel injected cars across a 9 year period. And a TON of those units were taken off and replaced with carbs, which left a lot of low mileage units and parts sitting on shelves. Not counting the spares that were produced.

No one is going to remake some ZR-1 parts...ever. And the cars aren't worth a ton, so spending 25% of the value of the car may not make sense. Certainly though, there is a lot of stuff being hoarded. Let's face it, there was a lot of commonly available stuff 5 years ago that isn't now, and it obviously hasn't all been used.

Much like the Model T comparison earlier, the level of technology in a C1 corvette is downright crude compared to a ZR-1.


While I have been told that dinosaurs died, and they did, there is no rational argument that proves that the same thing won't play out for ZR-1 parts. While some may FEEL that no one will want these cars in the future, that has never been factually proven to date.


When some restorer needs an ignition module to finish a full restoration that has taken years and tens of thousands of dollars to complete, do you really think they won't write the required check to get one?


When, where, why, how? Or are you just speculating that these cars are going to be restoration candidates in the future? I personally don't believe they will be.

People will always want them, but people want lots of things they can't have or that aren't practical. You're assuming these cars will appreciate like all other Corvettes have (or are). I don't think that will happen.

And when they stand with pen poised over the check, you really don't think some entrepreneur will find a way to give them what they need to get that "priceless" part.

That may happen in the future, but the price of the cars will have to go WAY up for that point to be reached.


God, I love capitalism!


Now,
ZR-1 parts have a two fold issue.
1- there are not many
2- EVERYONE maintains a stash!


They then read the stuff on this and other forums, and they buy and stash more and more exacerbating the problem.

Agreed.


SOLUTION


Form the 1st National Bank of ZR-1 Registry Parts.


You become a "depositor" by placing some or all of your stash in the "BANK"
As you deposit you build up a "value" equal to the current market value of your deposits.
Depositors only may make withdrawals of ANY part currently held by the bank at today's market price plus 10% for the bank.


Given some time, the hordes of stashed parts would move into the bank and become available to those that need them, likely fulfilling the actual "NEEDS" for many years to come.

You said you loved capitalism and now you are trying to sell us on socialism. Who dictates when a part is "needed." Who sets prices? If there is one part and two needs, does the more desirable car get priority? Like I said, I can count on one finger the number of people who ponied up an ignition module when a member needed it....one, me...


Unavailable parts could be listed as wanted with a current willing to buy price. As those prices rise, someone will step in and find a way to develop a solution.


Just a brief outline, but you get the idea.
Members can submit refinements and suggestions and eventually a workable bank would become feasible.
The Registry could either hire someone to run the bank, or source it out to any company that wants to run it. ( I do not ).
There are likely many, many potential depositors out there.


These cars will become restoration candidates in the future.
As such, then vendors that furnish parts today for the 53 and up, will soon discover the C-4 ZR-1 market as the demand begins to swell.

I don't believe they will be real restoration candidates...probably ever. C4 parts that are common to both cars...yes, they will probably be remade because people want to keep their cars on the road. ZR-1 specific parts...for the most part, no. Example: Might someone make a fiberglass rear bumper cover eventually...sure. Bumper cover molding? Nope.

OK, I think I will solve world peace now.
Marty


There are parts for which no one will ever develop a replacement. This is coming from a manufacturing engineer, who runs a small CNC job shop and works in a facility that builds piston aircraft engines designed in the 1950's. I understand the concept and reality far more than most. We make old replacement parts because the FAA essentially mandates it. No one is mandating replacement car parts be made and the investment needed to reproduce some of these parts for a market of 6000 or less cars (assuming every drivable car needed the part) is by far more expensive than what someone will invest.

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

Remind me not no toast any marshmallows near any campfire that you have been around.


Is it always raining in your world?


Again, you are welcome to your opinion as I am, and I also choose not to engage in another debate of silly foolish stuff.


You really should divest of your car and parts if that is how you really feel, that they are and always will be worthless.


My suspicion is you more enjoy being contrarian to me.
If I gave you a million dollars, you likely would say it ruined your life.
Don't worry; I won't.


Well, again have fun, as I really do not care.
Marty

[A26B]

I'm not seeing the matter quite as critical as some.

Parts currently in shortage but being resolved presently

DIS (ignition) Module: I expect to resolve this one in the near future

ECM/ECU: Marc Haibeck is working on rebuild of this part

Fuel Pressure Regulator: I am working on this part, new CNC body, no more rebuild delay.

Stock Sleeves/Pistons/Rings: I have now, as aftermarket components

Dual Mass Flywheel: No longer in my stock but used are available & I would think these can be rebuilt in future.

Throttle Body: Can be rebuilt at present.

Secondary Port Throttle Actuators: White Racing represents this part as new aftermarket, in stock. SPT elimination is common & used are generally available.

Serpentine Belt Tensioner: Rebuild service available by Marc Haibeck

Starters & Alternators: NOT a problem now or in the forseeable future

Oil Pump: 93~95 NOS available. 90~92 can be rebuilt using 93~95 gears & wear surfaces restored.

Clutch Components:
(1)Disc: After market readily available,
(2)Forks repairable,
(3)Pressure Place: Repairable & L98 aftermarket replacement available.
(4)Release Bearing: Supply of used & new sometimes erratic
(5)Entire clutch can be replaced with aftermarket conversion to push-release & minor mods, eliminating slave, fork, stud & OE release bearing, ALL in conjunction with stock D/M flywheel.

Fuel Pump Sender assy: new senders are going extinct, but pumps alone are readily available & senders can be replaced on the ZR-1 bracket.

The list goes on.

It might be easier to list what else is not available or not being resolved now. I don't get into much beyond power train, so I can't address CCM & such.

EDIT: FWIW, Jerrys Gaskets has manufactured about 2 dozen parts, not counting gaskets & seals. My business philosophy is different than conventional. I am retired from my profession & don't make a living from Jerrys Gaskets. Consequently, I can economically justify new parts development well outside of normal yardsticks, payout, return on investment, discounted rate of return, etc. I let total cash flow carry the burden of new part R&D + mfg. It's more about getting it done than profit assessment on each individual part. For example, I had to make 2,000 of each of the 5 different chain guide facings. That was in 2013 and sales to date is about 25 of each. My great grandchildren will inherit them!

[secondchance]

I have been using my Z as a daily driver (non rainy days since 2012) since 1991. Sure, parts was no problem at least until 2004 - 2006.
All I have to say is "where there is will there is a way".

[TX '90 ZR1]

You got ta' love it!!
Observing the differences in perspective stated by different posters makes one wonder how other things are playing out for them.
More times than not, the attitude going into a situation will have an effect on it's outcome.
I'll just leave it at that for now.
;)

[spork2367]

Remind me not no toast any marshmallows near any campfire that you have been around.


Is it always raining in your world?


Again, you are welcome to your opinion as I am, and I also choose not to engage in another debate of silly foolish stuff.


You really should divest of your car and parts if that is how you really feel, that they are and always will be worthless.


My suspicion is you more enjoy being contrarian to me.
If I gave you a million dollars, you likely would say it ruined your life.
Don't worry; I won't.


Well, again have fun, as I really do not care.
Marty

You started this thread!!!??? Pretty opinionated post for not caring. You certainly aren't the only person on here I disagree with but I also know there are people who agree with me, but they are quickly jumped on as "negative, sky is falling" type people and then just stay out of conversations. I'm not negative, I'm pragmatic bordering on cynical. I'm FAR more aware of the costs and reality of manufacturing than 98% of the people on this forum.

On the other side are the "it's always sunny, things will get better, buck up," people like yourself, painting a picture of the ZR-1 world that you're viewing through rose colored glasses. Painting that picture behooves you more than most because you have an inventory of cars you are trying to sell for money that has yet to be seen in the ZR-1 market.

But we've already seen several people on this forum in the last year that have bought these cars and become frustrated/inundated with simple and complex problems they didn't understand as well as big maintenance costs they didn't anticipate. For them, a pragmatic view might have saved them some money and heartache.

Again, you haven't given anything to debate beyond your first post. Just like when you never addressed the fact that you were comparing original MSRPs of cars to current values without adjusting for inflation...and you were in banking, so you certainly know better.

And the only debate is about future prices/availability. Again, you contradict yourself: "Yay capitalism, money will fix the problem." then in the same post: "Socialism rules, put all your parts in the collective for the greater good." Which is it?

The rest is just facts. There are less parts available now and they have gone up significantly in price. The value of the cars has not gone up at the same rate in the same period of time.

I never said parts or cars were worthless. In fact, I've been pointing out that parts have gone way up in price. Why would I divest myself of an investment that has seen in some cases 50% gains in value? I don't think the cars and parts are worthless, quite the contrary. I've invested in them because I think the parts (more than the cars) will go up in value quickly. So far I've been proven 100% correct. I've not purchased one part that is worth less now than when I bought it.

But I also love the cars. That's why I've restored one cars drivability and am working on another. I want to see these cars keep running. I'd love a fleet of them.

I'm not seeing the matter quite as critical as some.

Parts currently in shortage but being resolved presently

DIS (ignition) Module: I expect to resolve this one in the near future

ECM/ECU: Marc Haibeck is working on rebuild of this part

Fuel Pressure Regulator: I am working on this part, new CNC body, no more rebuild delay.

Stock Sleeves/Pistons/Rings: I have now, as aftermarket components

Dual Mass Flywheel: No longer in my stock but used are available & I would think these can be rebuilt in future.

Throttle Body: Can be rebuilt at present.

Secondary Port Throttle Actuators: White Racing represents this part as new aftermarket, in stock. SPT elimination is common & used are generally available.

Serpentine Belt Tensioner: Rebuild service available by Marc Haibeck

Starters & Alternators: NOT a problem now or in the forseeable future

Oil Pump: 93~95 NOS available. 90~92 can be rebuilt using 93~95 gears & wear surfaces restored.

Clutch Components:
(1)Disc: After market readily available,
(2)Forks repairable,
(3)Pressure Place: Repairable & L98 aftermarket replacement available.
(4)Release Bearing: Supply of used & new sometimes erratic
(5)Entire clutch can be replaced with aftermarket conversion to push-release & minor mods, eliminating slave, fork, stud & OE release bearing, ALL in conjunction with stock D/M flywheel.

Fuel Pump Sender assy: new senders are going extinct, but pumps alone are readily available & senders can be replaced on the ZR-1 bracket.

The list goes on.

It might be easier to list what else is not available or not being resolved now. I don't get into much beyond power train, so I can't address CCM & such.

EDIT: FWIW, Jerrys Gaskets has manufactured about 2 dozen parts, not counting gaskets & seals. My business philosophy is different than conventional. I am retired from my profession & don't make a living from Jerrys Gaskets. Consequently, I can economically justify new parts development well outside of normal yardsticks, payout, return on investment, discounted rate of return, etc. I let total cash flow carry the burden of new part R&D + mfg. It's more about getting it done than profit assessment on each individual part. For example, I had to make 2,000 of each of the 5 different chain guide facings. That was in 2013 and sales to date is about 25 of each. My great grandchildren will inherit them!

You've almost single handedly kept the engine alive from an internal parts standpoint. If it weren't for you, we'd be way past the critical point for parts. I hope your great grandchildren love ZR-1s. :)

One critical juncture will be when people like you, Marc, and some others decided to retire or in your case re-retire. Hopefully there is someone willing to take on those tasks.

I have been using my Z as a daily driver (non rainy days since 2012) since 1991. Sure, parts was no problem at least until 2004 - 2006.
All I have to say is "where there is will there is a way".

"Where there is a will there is a way," sounds good, but there is a monetary factor and manufacturability factors. GM could spread the investment cost in the ZR-1 over the entire GM product line. Jerry can spread the investment cost of some new parts over the revenue from the other parts he sells. That simply won't always work.

The other big factor for some is, how much value the car will retain with a pile of aftermarket replacement parts. If you're going to drive it until the wheels fall off, it is just a really expensive to maintain sports car and many people decide to sell to buy a C5 Z06. For others they want to drive and enjoy the car while maintaining value in originality. That will be difficult.

You got ta' love it!!
Observing the differences in perspective stated by different posters makes one wonder how other things are playing out for them.
More times than not, the attitude going into a situation will have an effect on it's outcome.
I'll just leave it at that for now.
;)

Everything ZR-1 I've purchased is worth more than what I paid. Now, the one car I fixed is worth more in parts than as a driving car...but....anyway...lol.

But I don't disagree. There are a lot of people who bought their cars at the peak a couple years ago who are probably hoping parts stay available and the prices of cars go up.

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

Spork,]
To be clear, it is your pessimistic view that I do not care about, you are welcome to it, I just don't share it nor do I wish to debate it with you.
You mist-state or misunderstand most of what I say anyhow, so it is pointless.
Enjoy your car, or whatever with it.
Marty

[spork2367]

Spork,]
To be clear, it is your pessimistic view that I do not care about, you are welcome to it, I just don't share it nor do I wish to debate it with you.
You mist-state or misunderstand most of what I say anyhow, so it is pointless.
Enjoy your car, or whatever with it.
Marty

That's your go to claim that you haven't backed up once. I "don't understand what you're trying to say." Yes, I do. We all do, it's not that complex.

How am I misunderstanding your comparison of an easily manufactured mechanical fuel injection unit to complex electromechanical components and systems?

How am I misunderstanding that you compared an MSRP from a C3 corvette with a value today and didn't adjust it for inflation? As a financial person you know for a fact that isn't an acceptable practice.

How did I misunderstand that you literally said: "God, I love capitalism!", then followed that up with a suggestion about how we should have a quasi socialist parts bank?


It's not pessimistic if it's true. Opinions can be pessimistic. Facts can't be.

My "pessimistic" opinion:

1. Cars aren't going up significantly anytime soon.

2. We are going to see more parts failures and cars with issues as more cars go from collectors pieces to drivers. (this is almost fact as it's based on statistical probability)

3. People are going to be less inclined to share from their own parts hoards. (I sold an individual an ignition module when no one else would.)

4. More people bought these cars as investments than would like to admit and are concerned that "negative" or "pessimistic" views will affect their value.

Facts:

1. The cost of parts have gone up faster than the cost of cars.

2. Parts are harder to find and more expensive than ever.

3. Much of the value retained by any collector car is in it's originality, not simply the ability to keep it running and drivable.

4. No amount of pessimistic opinion will stifle the value of a collector car unless there are facts that support that opinion.

[onethumb]

I only wish that some of my other cars were made in such a high volume as the ZR-1.


Many casual owners will give up, and a lot of ZR-1's will fall into disrepair because of that. The gap between a "good" and a "poor" ZR-1 will grow. But there will always be ways to get parts, and an enthusiast community to help find them, and a small cottage industry to support the enthusiasts. I speak from experience!

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

To Rain man.

Have a very nice day!
M

[secondchance]

"Where there is a will there is a way," sounds good, but there is a monetary factor and manufacturability factors. GM could spread the investment cost in the ZR-1 over the entire GM product line. Jerry can spread the investment cost of some new parts over the revenue from the other parts he sells. That simply won't always work.

The other big factor for some is, how much value the car will retain with a pile of aftermarket replacement parts. If you're going to drive it until the wheels fall off, it is just a really expensive to maintain sports car and many people decide to sell to buy a C5 Z06. For others they want to drive and enjoy the car while maintaining value in originality. That will be difficult.



Interestingly, apart from money I dished out to bore & stroke when the head gasket failed and custom brakes (because Wilwoods just looked great), infortainment system (for better sound and keep up with the time), and freshening up the interior (because original seats started to look too stressed), only parts I went through in 163,500 miles of driving are water pumps, alternators, starters, fuel pressure regulator, ASR motor and typical maintenance parts - nothing extraordinarily expensive. The fact that I drive the car at least once a week (or 5 times a week when it's sunny the whole week) may have something to do with it.
Matter of fact, most parts for our Z are standard C4 parts. A few LT5 specific parts, even when inflated due to scarcity, is relatively reasonable when compared to MB SL550 parts.
All I am saying is that it's all relative. Yes. I am concerned over certain LT5 specific parts, periodically check Ebay, snatch it up and squirrel them away. But, so far, it's been relatively easy.
As an investment, very few cars are worth betting on. I simply see my love of Z as means to hold on to my youth and means to accomplish my dream of making it better than when I bought it back in 1991.:cheers:

[Ccmano]

I’m not concerned, if it bothers you sell it or don’t buy one in the first place.
H
:cheers:

[Jagdpanzer]

Collectively we have been able to find suitable solutions for every parts and technical challenge that have come up so far.
With the dedicated and talented owners we have here I am quite confident we will continue this trend for the foreseeable future. May not always be NCRS kosher but they will work as good if not better than the originals and the cars don’t seem to mind.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[Z51JEFF]

Supply and demand,when the supply gets thin somebody-Jerry- will step up and fill the void. And when Jerry stops doing it somebody else will step in and continue the cycle. It all comes down to money,how much ya wanna spend. When was the last time a popular car became extinct because no parts rendered it useless?

[Young1]

Amen Phil. Those of us that are enthusiastic about the ZR-1 patiently keep them alive. If and when I become frustrated with mine I know where I would take it, to the garage of another enthusiast with experience. To enjoy any old car you must learn where to find or fab parts. That is just part of the hobby.

[Mr.Yuck]

I believe I can solve all of your future worries so I'll put this out there right now on this form. When you can't find parts for your ZR-1 anymore because they're no longer available anywhere and you can never drive your car again?? Just send me a (ZR-1 for sale email) I will buy it from you for Pennies on the dollar apparently because it will be worthless. I will fix it and I'll be grinning ear-to-ear every time I drive your old Z. How's that for optimism.

Sent from my 2PS64 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[TX '90 ZR1]

I believe I can solve all of your future worries so I'll put this out there right now on this form. When you can't find parts for your ZR-1 anymore because they're no longer available anywhere and you can never drive your car again?? Just send me a (ZR-1 for sale email) I will buy it from you for Pennies on the dollar apparently because it will be worthless. I will fix it and I'll be grinning ear-to-ear every time I drive your old Z. How's that for optimism.

Sent from my 2PS64 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

If you get more than you can handle let me know. I'll step in as your back up!!
;)

[WARP TEN]

Collectively we have been able to find suitable solutions for every parts and technical challenge that have come up so far.
With the dedicated and talented owners we have here I am quite confident we will continue this trend for the foreseeable future. May not always be NCRS kosher but they will work as good if not better than the originals and the cars don’t seem to mind.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

Well said, Phil. While I don't still own a ZR-1, I owned ZR-1s for the better part of 20 years. I meet regularly with Marc Haibeck and still go to some of the ZR-1 get togethers. I never had any unfixable problems over 80,000 miles with my Zs, and I always know that someone in this group can usually come up with a solution to any issue. I can certainly understand some people will be reluctant to own a C4 ZR-1 (which unfortunately reflects in current prices of them) but I for one would not have any concerns that I couldn't get a ZR-1 fixed. These cars are now about a quarter of a century old, but we have a vibrant and active ZR-1 community and there were a fair number of the cars made. Imagine the problems facing owners of some mid 90s cars with more limited production and the same early electronics (certain Ferraris come to mind). Ithink overall this group is in pretty good shape. Wish I were getting younger and had more garage space available for another ZR-1.--Bob

[spork2367]

I only wish that some of my other cars were made in such a high volume as the ZR-1.


Many casual owners will give up, and a lot of ZR-1's will fall into disrepair because of that. The gap between a "good" and a "poor" ZR-1 will grow. But there will always be ways to get parts, and an enthusiast community to help find them, and a small cottage industry to support the enthusiasts. I speak from experience!

Experience with cars from the same era? That's a big difference. You can't compare cars from the 70's and early 80's with these cars when it comes to sourcing reproduction/replacement parts.

To Rain man.

Have a very nice day!
M

I'm never sure when I'm talking to Marty the ZR-1 owner, Marty the former banker, or Marty the classic car salesman. They are three very different people with three very different perspectives and agendas. Which is why you end up contradicting yourself.

Marty the ZR-1 owner says; "everything will be fine, enjoy your car, we'll all help each other out." Marty the banker says; "let's pool our resources for sensible distribution of spare parts." Marty the car salesman ignores the fact that there will be parts shortages and claims that these cars are just undervalued.

Marty the classic car salesman ignores inflation when comparing values giving the impression that the corvette market is doing something it isn't. Marty the banker knows that's misleading or blatantly dishonest. Marty the ZR-1 owner claims anyone who disputes him just doesn't understand.

When you want to have a real discussion come on back.

Interestingly, apart from money I dished out to bore & stroke when the head gasket failed and custom brakes (because Wilwoods just looked great), infortainment system (for better sound and keep up with the time), and freshening up the interior (because original seats started to look too stressed), only parts I went through in 163,500 miles of driving are water pumps, alternators, starters, fuel pressure regulator, ASR motor and typical maintenance parts - nothing extraordinarily expensive. The fact that I drive the car at least once a week (or 5 times a week when it's sunny the whole week) may have something to do with it.
Matter of fact, most parts for our Z are standard C4 parts. A few LT5 specific parts, even when inflated due to scarcity, is relatively reasonable when compared to MB SL550 parts.
All I am saying is that it's all relative. Yes. I am concerned over certain LT5 specific parts, periodically check Ebay, snatch it up and squirrel them away. But, so far, it's been relatively easy.
As an investment, very few cars are worth betting on. I simply see my love of Z as means to hold on to my youth and means to accomplish my dream of making it better than when I bought it back in 1991.:cheers:

I don't know that saying a head gasket went and then you spent 5-8k on a rebuild exactly proves a point of reliability, but I would agree that the cars overall are pretty reliable and for the most part should only require standard maintenance for the mileage.

My wife's Acura has 270k and my Dodge Ram has 308k, so I'm certainly aware of standard maintenance for high mileage cars...lol.

As for most parts being standard C4 parts...not really. If you broke the car down to every nut and bolt separately, sure, they probably share 80% of the same parts.

But when you break it into assemblies it's a different story. It doesn't matter that 95% of the transmission is the same if there is one critical part that isn't, and isn't made. The body panels are different from the doors back and aren't available as replacements or reproductions. Engine, transmission, wheels, dash wiring harness, engine wiring harness, instrument cluster, dash bezel, cooling system, fuel system...The majority of the parts that are shared (nuts, bolts, suspension) aren't the parts we are talking about.

I’m not concerned, if it bothers you sell it or don’t buy one in the first place.
H
:cheers:

I'm not sure who this is directed at. I own several cars, piles of parts, and I'm looking for another car, so obviously it doesn't bother me.

Collectively we have been able to find suitable solutions for every parts and technical challenge that have come up so far.
With the dedicated and talented owners we have here I am quite confident we will continue this trend for the foreseeable future. May not always be NCRS kosher but they will work as good if not better than the originals and the cars don’t seem to mind.

This brings up a good point. None of the replacement parts are NCRS kosher (obviously some can't be seen). There are two schools of thought here. Keep it as original as possible to maintain value because it's only original once, or do whatever it takes to keep it drivable regardless of originality.

Supply and demand,when the supply gets thin somebody-Jerry- will step up and fill the void. And when Jerry stops doing it somebody else will step in and continue the cycle. It all comes down to money,how much ya wanna spend. When was the last time a popular car became extinct because no parts rendered it useless?

Sure, money being no object, you can make any part over again. Obviously we produced all these parts in the late 80's early 90's and we haven't lost the ability to produce them.

But money is an object. There are lots of ZR-1 owners who will dump a non-running car before dropping 35% of the value of the car into a repair.

There won't always be someone to step up. At some point there won't be enough other revenue streams to use for development costs of new parts.

Well said, Phil. While I don't still own a ZR-1, I owned ZR-1s for the better part of 20 years. I meet regularly with Marc Haibeck and still go to some of the ZR-1 get togethers. I never had any unfixable problems over 80,000 miles with my Zs, and I always know that someone in this group can usually come up with a solution to any issue. I can certainly understand some people will be reluctant to own a C4 ZR-1 (which unfortunately reflects in current prices of them) but I for one would not have any concerns that I couldn't get a ZR-1 fixed. These cars are now about a quarter of a century old, but we have a vibrant and active ZR-1 community and there were a fair number of the cars made. Imagine the problems facing owners of some mid 90s cars with more limited production and the same early electronics (certain Ferraris come to mind). I think overall this group is in pretty good shape. Wish I were getting younger and had more garage space available for another ZR-1.--Bob

Again, some of these parts shortages and low inventory situations are very recent. So even using 3-5 years ago as a gauge doesn't work.

The difference with cars like Ferraris is that Ferrari supports their cars very well. You can call them up and get almost any replacement part for any car. Sure they are expensive, but the are official, correct, Ferrari parts.

GM won't even license replacement parts for these cars. So even when they are made they are reducing the originality and collectability of the car. If your goal is just to maintain a drivable car forever by any means possible, that can likely be done. They made a documentary about that, it was called Mad Max....lol.






There are several different dialogues going on simultaneously that are confusing the issue a bit.

Can these cars be made to run and drive forever? Sure. But as you take more an more original and original style parts from the car, you inevitably reduce its value as a collector car.

Marty knows that better than anyone and casually leaves that out of his dialogue. He's quietly collected a number of extremely low mileage cars and is asking money that they market hasn't paid since those cars were new. If someone were to buy a 69k ZR-1 from him, they are not going to want to instantly have to put a pile of replacement parts on it. They are buying it for it's originality, which at this point, they would have difficulty retaining if they also wanted to drive the car.

Which means, that if every car is inevitably going to have a hodge podge of replacement parts, the collector car market for these is going to be more limited. There will be no such thing as C4 "restorations" with so many original and OEM style parts being nonexistent. And no matter what anyone says, there are absolutely parts they won't reproduce ever again.

I work in a company that builds, rebuilds, and remanufactures piston engines. We do carbureted engines, mechanically fuel injected engines, electronically fuel injected engines, a direct injection diesel and a single cylinder two stroke. Single cylinder, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder, turbo, NA...a little bit of everything.

We support engines that are 60 years old. We don't support 60 year old engines because it's cost effective. We have had to discontinue parts, modify engines, and introduce alternative parts because we couldn't find anyone to cost effectively produce replacements for small production numbers. Production numbers that still eclipse anything ZR-1 parts production will see. And these are engines that cost 55k+, so it's not that we don't have the allowance to build in higher cost replacement parts if necessary.


At the end of the day, we can certainly keep these cars running although it may not be cost effective for many owners.

As things break and are replaced with aftermarket parts, the collectability of the cars will suffer.

While many people may not have purchased these cars as investments, they certainly purchased them hoping they would gain some collectability and value over time. At this point, many are still on the losing end of that. The availability of replacement parts and the resemblance of those parts to OEM parts will absolutely affect the value of these cars.

[TX '90 ZR1]

Experience with cars from the same era? That's a big difference. You can't compare cars from the 70's and early 80's with these cars when it comes to sourcing reproduction/replacement parts.



I'm never sure when I'm talking to Marty the ZR-1 owner, Marty the former banker, or Marty the classic car salesman. They are three very different people with three very different perspectives and agendas. Which is why you end up contradicting yourself.

Marty the ZR-1 owner says; "everything will be fine, enjoy your car, we'll all help each other out." Marty the banker says; "let's pool our resources for sensible distribution of spare parts." Marty the car salesman ignores the fact that there will be parts shortages and claims that these cars are just undervalued.

Marty the classic car salesman ignores inflation when comparing values giving the impression that the corvette market is doing something it isn't. Marty the banker knows that's misleading or blatantly dishonest. Marty the ZR-1 owner claims anyone who disputes him just doesn't understand.

When you want to have a real discussion come on back.



I don't know that saying a head gasket went and then you spent 5-8k on a rebuild exactly proves a point of reliability, but I would agree that the cars overall are pretty reliable and for the most part should only require standard maintenance for the mileage.

My wife's Acura has 270k and my Dodge Ram has 308k, so I'm certainly aware of standard maintenance for high mileage cars...lol.

As for most parts being standard C4 parts...not really. If you broke the car down to every nut and bolt separately, sure, they probably share 80% of the same parts.

But when you break it into assemblies it's a different story. It doesn't matter that 95% of the transmission is the same if there is one critical part that isn't, and isn't made. The body panels are different from the doors back and aren't available as replacements or reproductions. Engine, transmission, wheels, dash wiring harness, engine wiring harness, instrument cluster, dash bezel, cooling system, fuel system...The majority of the parts that are shared (nuts, bolts, suspension) aren't the parts we are talking about.



I'm not sure who this is directed at. I own several cars, piles of parts, and I'm looking for another car, so obviously it doesn't bother me.



This brings up a good point. None of the replacement parts are NCRS kosher (obviously some can't be seen). There are two schools of thought here. Keep it as original as possible to maintain value because it's only original once, or do whatever it takes to keep it drivable regardless of originality.



Sure, money being no object, you can make any part over again. Obviously we produced all these parts in the late 80's early 90's and we haven't lost the ability to produce them.

But money is an object. There are lots of ZR-1 owners who will dump a non-running car before dropping 35% of the value of the car into a repair.

There won't always be someone to step up. At some point there won't be enough other revenue streams to use for development costs of new parts.



Again, some of these parts shortages and low inventory situations are very recent. So even using 3-5 years ago as a gauge doesn't work.

The difference with cars like Ferraris is that Ferrari supports their cars very well. You can call them up and get almost any replacement part for any car. Sure they are expensive, but the are official, correct, Ferrari parts.

GM won't even license replacement parts for these cars. So even when they are made they are reducing the originality and collectability of the car. If your goal is just to maintain a drivable car forever by any means possible, that can likely be done. They made a documentary about that, it was called Mad Max....lol.






There are several different dialogues going on simultaneously that are confusing the issue a bit.

Can these cars be made to run and drive forever? Sure. But as you take more an more original and original style parts from the car, you inevitably reduce its value as a collector car.

Marty knows that better than anyone and casually leaves that out of his dialogue. He's quietly collected a number of extremely low mileage cars and is asking money that they market hasn't paid since those cars were new. If someone were to buy a 69k ZR-1 from him, they are not going to want tot fudge replacement parts on it. They are buying it for it's originality, which at this point, they would have difficulty retaining if they also wanted to drive the car.

Which means, that if every car is inevitably going to have a hodge podge of replacement parts, the collector car market for these is going to be more limited. There will be no such thing as C4 "restorations" with so many original and OEM style parts being nonexistent. And no matter what anyone says, there are absolutely parts they won't reproduce ever again.

I work in a company that builds, rebuilds, and remanufactures piston engines. We do carbureted engines, mechanically fuel injected engines, electronically fuel injected engines, a direct injection diesel and a single cylinder two stroke. Single cylinder, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder, turbo, NA...a little bit of everything.

We support engines that are 60 years old. We don't support 60 year old engines because it's cost effective. We have had to discontinue parts, modify engines, and introduce alternative parts because we couldn't find anyone to cost effectively produce replacements for small production numbers. Production numbers that still eclipse anything ZR-1 parts production will see. And these are engines that cost 55k+, so it's not that we don't have the allowance to build in higher cost replacement parts if necessary.


At the end of the day, we can certainly keep these cars running although it may not be cost effective for many owners.

As things break and are replaced with aftermarket parts, the collectability of the cars will suffer.

While many people may not have purchased these cars as investments, they certainly purchased them hoping they would gain some collectability and value over time. At this point, many are still on the losing end of that. The availability of replacement parts and the resemblance of those parts to OEM parts will absolutely affect the value of these cars.

I am feeling slighted!! Didn't make the list this time???

[spork2367]

You got ta' love it!!
Observing the differences in perspective stated by different posters makes one wonder how other things are playing out for them.
More times than not, the attitude going into a situation will have an effect on it's outcome.
I'll just leave it at that for now.
;)

Sure does. Weird how the guy trying to sell 4 really low mileage cars on his classic car lot has a different perspective than the guy who has one running ZR-1, one essentially low mileage parts car, and a pile of parts...

Like I stated earlier, I bought my parts when they were on the cheap side, so I've seen the value on some of them almost double. I bought a complete engine from a known car for 2100 a couple years ago. Oil pan to ECU.

If you're the guy who has no spare parts and a relatively original car, I'm sure you want to have an optimistic view of future parts availability.

I am feeling slighted!! Didn't make the list this time???

Feel better?....lol.

[lfalzarano]

Everyone needs to chill and enjoy your ownership. I could get hit and killed by a bus today, but I Don’t worry about it or post it...


Lou

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

spork
you again speak with ignorance.
The last low mile ZR-1 that I sold went with a number starting with a 6.
Got that?
you sure you understand that right?


Left out that each of the low mile cars have already been fully serviced, with new injectors filter, pumps, fluids, battery, etc. or I would not sell them.
They each are turnkey Bloomington or NCRS ready.

Clear?
Great!
Must correct you when you so blatantly misstate facts about my cars.

The rest of what you say is equally wrong, but as stated earlier, I just do not really care what you think.
Got that?
Great.
Now, have a fine day.
Marty

[TX '90 ZR1]

Sure does. Weird how the guy trying to sell 4 really low mileage cars on his classic car lot has a different perspective than the guy who has one running ZR-1, one essentially low mileage parts car, and a pile of parts...

Like I stated earlier, I bought my parts when they were on the cheap side, so I've seen the value on some of them almost double. I bought a complete engine from a known car for 2100 a couple years ago. Oil pan to ECU.

If you're the guy who has no spare parts and a relatively original car, I'm sure you want to have an optimistic view of future parts availability.



Feel better?....lol.

I don't necessarily agree with the insinuation you make,(not about me), but I do feel better now.
THANK YOU!!

[spork2367]

Everyone needs to chill and enjoy your ownership. I could get hit and killed by a bus today, but I Don’t worry about it or post it...


Lou

I hope no one is really upset about this discussion. There is nothing to be upset about. (unless you have a broken car that needs an expensive part I suppose...) I'm not upset about the topic at all. Just for the record the people most involved in the discussion also aren't the people who started the thread. So it's not like any one person is running around starting lots of threads about controversial topics. They just come up because they are relevant. I'm not sure why we can't have a relevant discourse as long as we're clear about what's fact and what's opinion.

spork
you again speak with ignorance.
The last low mile ZR-1 that I sold went with a number starting with a 6.
Got that?
you sure you understand that right?


Left out that each of the low mile cars have already been fully serviced, with new injectors filter, pumps, fluids, battery, etc. or I would not sell them.
They each are turnkey Bloomington or NCRS ready.

Clear?
Great!
Must correct you when you so blatantly misstate facts about my cars.

The rest of what you say is equally wrong, but as stated earlier, I just do not really care what you think.
Got that?
Great.
Now, have a fine day.
Marty

So one car with low mileage sold for a number that started with 6 and that means every single one should sell for that? There are people who pay too much for things all day long.

Just to be clear with you NO valuation guide anywhere has a concours, Bloomington, NCRS ZR-1 of any year within 10k of what you're asking.

Current Concours Level ZR-1 Price Averages:

1990 - 43,000
1991 - 42,000
1992 - 36,000
1993 - 41,000
1994 - 41,000
1995 - 53,000

That being said, I'm not saying those cars aren't fully sorted. In fact I noticed you didn't quote where I misstated something about your cars as you claimed....The only thing I've stated about them is the price.

For 68-69k I would absolutely expect them to be fully sorted. It's your car lot, list them for whatever you'd like. Just don't come in here pretending to be regular joe ZR-1 owner with no agenda.

I'm still waiting for the explanation about how capitalism is king but we should start a communal parts bank, or for you to explain how I'm mistaken about adjusting values over a 28-40 year span of time for inflation...You were a banker, I'm just and engineer...

I don't necessarily agree with the insinuation you make,(not about me), but I do feel better now.
THANK YOU!!

You don't think a guy selling cars has a different agenda than a guy buying cars? That's a very optimistic view!

[DRM500RUBYZR-1]

:cheers:
Marty

[spork2367]

:cheers:
Marty

In the interest of civility, agreed! :cheers:

[secondchance]

For what it's worth, last year (or was it a year earlier...) Marty was kind enough to part with a brand new dual-mass flywheel for a price cheaper than what Chevrolet was selling them for 9-10 years ago. Now, I have it in my 94Z with 163,500 miles and despite porting and phase 1 cam thumping, I have no dreaded gear rattle - THANK YOU, MARTY!

I see Marty pretty much every year at ZR-1 net registry tent at Carlisle with his ruby Z. Sure he sells vettes. But I now he loves Zs personally. Along the same vein, I understand spork's fear of spare parts sky-rocketing. :cheers:

[spork2367]

For what it's worth, last year (or was it a year earlier...) Marty was kind enough to part with a brand new dual-mass flywheel for a price cheaper than what Chevrolet was selling them for 9-10 years ago. Now, I have it in my 94Z with 163,500 miles and despite porting and phase 1 cam thumping, I have no dreaded gear rattle - THANK YOU, MARTY!

I see Marty pretty much every year at ZR-1 net registry tent at Carlisle with his ruby Z. Sure he sells vettes. But I now he loves Zs personally. Along the same vein, I understand spork's fear of spare parts sky-rocketing. :cheers:

I don't personally know Marty, but I know he does love these cars. That's precisely the reason people get passionate about these discussions. I don't believe he has some secret agenda, but we all have different perspectives based on what we're doing or looking to do with the cars we own. His love of Corvettes and ZR-1s is why he buys fixes and sells them. We just don't agree on all the details.

The love of these cars is the one thing we do all share.

I'm not scared of spare parts availability for my sake, which is I think what a couple people have perceived. I've amassed a pretty good collection of parts when people were selling them off cheap. My goal isn't just to hoard parts for myself though. I've been helped by individuals on here, and I've helped others as well. There is always a part that one guy has that another does not. No one (besides Jerry maybe) can supply themselves indefinitely.

I also don't want someone interested in these cars to buy one thinking that everything is an easy fix with commonly available parts. In the last 6 months there have been several new owners who have come through here with issues. Some, frustrated to the point they were ready to dump the car.

I'll be at Carlisle on Thursday if anyone wants to continue the discussion! (just kidding, I'm only there to look at cars and maybe buy another ZR1 shirt to bother the wife)

[secondchance]

I don't personally know Marty, but I know he does love these cars. That's precisely the reason people get passionate about these discussions. I don't believe he has some secret agenda, but we all have different perspectives based on what we're doing or looking to do with the cars we own. His love of Corvettes and ZR-1s is why he buys fixes and sells them. We just don't agree on all the details.

The love of these cars is the one thing we do all share.

I'm not scared of spare parts availability for my sake, which is I think what a couple people have perceived. I've amassed a pretty good collection of parts when people were selling them off cheap. My goal isn't just to hoard parts for myself though. I've been helped by individuals on here, and I've helped others as well. There is always a part that one guy has that another does not. No one (besides Jerry maybe) can supply themselves indefinitely.

I also don't want someone interested in these cars to buy one thinking that everything is an easy fix with commonly available parts. In the last 6 months there have been several new owners who have come through here with issues. Some, frustrated to the point they were ready to dump the car.

I'll be at Carlisle on Thursday if anyone wants to continue the discussion! (just kidding, I'm only there to look at cars and maybe buy another ZR1 shirt to bother the wife)

Hey, I fully understand. Like I said, I test drove and fell in love with these cars back in October of 91. Totalled my 91 down in Florida in 96, drove a BMW 850i for four years (missing my ZR-1 pretty much every day), found a 94 in 2000 and almost drove her into the ground by 2009, found by and rescused by WAZOO and spent the last 9 years modifying her the way I felt she should be (and I am fine with NCRS inclined enthusiast) -henceforth, secondchance. I have been modifying her (a blasphemy for NCRS folks - sorry!) because for me she is a driver and wanted to stay relevant with the current generation of hi-po cars. Just me...
I have been very fortunate to be found by WAZOO. What a group of talented, kind and dedicated group! I know I am very fortunate to be in DC, MD, VA ZR-1 enthusiasts. We jump in with spare parts, tear into each other's cars and mixture of talents allows us to be almost immune from typical ZR-1 owner. This allowed me to be somewhat insensitive to those less fortunate.

I will be at Carlisle this Friday and may be Saturday. If you see a black 94 with Florida plate, that would be me. I surely hope to make your acquaintance, spork!

Happy trails!